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Dawkins’ Philosophical Incoherence

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In River out of Eden : A Darwinian View of Life Richard Dawkins wrote:

The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference. As that unhappy poet A.E. Housman put it: ‘For Nature, heartless, witless Nature Will neither care nor know.’ DNA neither cares nor knows. DNA just is. And we dance to its music.

In a 2007 New Scientist/Greenpeace Science debate, Dawkins said:

Far from being the most selfish, exploitative species, Homo sapiens is the only species that has at least the possibility of rebelling against the otherwise universally selfish Darwinian impulse . . . If any species in the history of life has the possibility of breaking away from short term selfishness and of long term planning for the distant future, it’s our species. We are earth’s last best hope even if we are simultaneously, the species most capable of destroying life on the planet. But when it comes to taking the long view, we are literally unique. Because the long view is not a view that has ever been taken before in whole history of life. If we don’t plan for the future, no other species will . . .

Dawkins’ does not seem to understand that he cannot have his cake and eat it too, and that leads the world’s most prominent atheist/evolutionary biologist to make mutually exclusive truth claims that I would expect the average high school freshman to avoid. Let us examine a couple:

1. DNA is all there is, and we dance to its music. Yet it is possible for Homo sapiens to rebel against DNA. But how can DNA rebel against itself? I cannot rise above myself. I cannot reach down, grab my bootstraps, and pull myself off the floor.

2. There is no good and no evil. Yet Homo sapiens has the capability of planning for the future (presumably to avoid an undesired outcome or achieve a desired outcome). But if there is no good and no evil, on what grounds should we desire any particular outcome and plan for it?

UPDATE BELOW THE FOLD

From the comments, it seems that the 1st conclusion above is not as obvious as I thought it was.  Let me try to spell it out in small steps.

1. Dawkins is a philosophical materialist.

2. Philosophical materialism compels the conclusion that mind does not exist and that what we call “mind” is an illusion, an epiphenomenon of the chemical processes of the brain.

3. Consequently, to remain logically coherent Dawkins must believe in a pure biological reductionism. And he does. His statement “DNA neither cares nor knows. DNA just is. And we dance to its music” is just another way for Dawkins to say, “Look everyone! I’m a dyed-in-the-wool biological reductionist.” I would have thought that is obvious, but apparently it is not.

4. Biological determinism is an inescapable corollary to biological reductionism. In other words, if every choice we make can be reduced to the chemical processes of the brain, free will is an illusion. This is what Dawkins means when he says we dance to DNA’s music.

5. Then, having said that free will is an illusion, Dawkins sounds like a Cartesian dualist in the Greenpeace debate. He says it is possible for us to “rebel” against the “otherwise universally selfish Darwinian impulse.” If this is not special pleading, I do not know what is.

6. The selfish Darwinian impulse is universal, Dawkins says. We dance to DNA’s music. Our every choice is utterly determined. Free will is an illusion. No, wait, Dawkins replies. The Darwinian impulse is only nearly universal. “I” can rebel against it. Here’s the problem. If we accept Dawkins’ initial premises, the conclusion that “I” can rebel against biological determinism is pure gibberish for the simple reason that the “I” in that statement does not exist. There is only matter in motion, and matter in motion cannot “rebel” against itself. Indeed, the concept of matter in motion rebelling against matter in motion is logically incoherent. If Dawkins’ initial premises are correct, my body is nothing but a complex biological machine, and the self-awareness I feel is an illusion. Therefore, the very idea that “I” have a “choice” about whether to follow selfish Darwinian impulses is meaningless.

So we see that Dawkins is not just any sort of fool.  He is a simpering gutless fool.  He wants to have his atheism with its concomitant materialism, but he does not have the courage to face the earth shattering metaphysical conclusions that follow ineluctability from his premises.  Instead, he tries to smuggle foundational ethics (of a particularly Christian variety at that!) in through the back door.  He shirks not only in ethics but also in politics.  See here.

Give me Nietzsche over Dawkins any day.  One can disagree with Nietzsche, yet still come away with a sort of respect for his courage.  Nietzsche never simpered nor shirked.  He faced the terrifying conclusions of his premises head on.  In our time Will Provine follows in Nietzsche’s footsteps and takes his atheism seriously:  “Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent.”  Evolution: Free Will and Punishment and Meaning in Life, Second Annual Darwin Day Celebration Keynote Address.

Comments
markf @ 42 "Wittgenstein encouraged us to simply look at how we use words e.g. abstract nouns and mathematics. After a time you see his point of view and realise there isn’t anything corresponding to these words – rather they are tools in certain activities such as mathematics." This is about the most ridiculous thing I have ever read. I guess it is safe to ignore Wittgenstein's words since they don't mean anything. Come on. You can say stuff like this with a straight face??? After reading the exchange with GEM and myself, I guess so. I won't waste anymore meaningless words trying to show you the truth. Good day. p.s. AS USUAL, and as noted by GEM, not A PEEP about the actual argument. No attacking the validity. No attacking the premises. No attacking the clarity of the terms. Nothing but a dismissal. p.p.s. Note to self. How much sense does it make to reason with people who reject reason? Not much.tgpeeler
August 3, 2010
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Onlookers: As predicted, sadly, and on the same grounds as usual. But in fact what I presented is not an argument from reason -- it was instead in the main a more detailed drawing out of BA's remark in the update: ___________ 1. Dawkins is a philosophical materialist. [Freely acknowledged by CRD] 2. Philosophical materialism compels the conclusion that mind does not exist and that what we call “mind” is an illusion, an epiphenomenon of the chemical processes of the brain.
[ --> This is what I drew out above: ". . . [on evolutionary materialistic premises] the cosmos is the product of chance interactions of matter and energy, within the constraint of the laws of nature. Therefore, all phenomena in the universe, without residue, are determined by the working of purposeless laws acting on material objects, under the direct or indirect control of chance. But human thought, clearly a phenomenon in the universe, must now fit into this picture. Thus, what we subjectively experience as “thoughts” and “conclusions” can only be understood materialistically as unintended by-products of the natural forces which cause and control the electro-chemical events going on in neural networks in our brains."]
3. Consequently, to remain logically coherent Dawkins must believe in a pure biological reductionism. And he does. His statement “DNA neither cares nor knows. DNA just is. And we dance to its music” is just another way for Dawkins to say, “Look everyone! I’m a dyed-in-the-wool biological reductionist.” I would have thought that is obvious, but apparently it is not.
[--> Observe my elaboration: ". . . [on materialism] what we subjectively experience as “thoughts” and “conclusions” can only be understood materialistically as unintended by-products of the natural [= undirected chance + mechanical necessity] forces which cause and control the electro-chemical events going on in neural networks in our brains. (These forces are viewed as ultimately physical, but are taken to be partly mediated through a complex pattern of genetic inheritance ["nature"] and psycho-social conditioning ["nurture"], within the framework of human culture [i.e. socio-cultural conditioning and resulting/associated relativism].) Therefore, if materialism is true, the “thoughts” we have and the “conclusions” we reach, without residue, are produced and controlled by forces that are irrelevant to purpose, truth, or validity." --> This of course has immediately fatally self-referentially incoherent consequences . . . ]
4. Biological determinism is an inescapable corollary to biological reductionism. In other words, if every choice we make can be reduced to the chemical processes of the brain, free will is an illusion. This is what Dawkins means when he says we dance to DNA’s music . . .
[ --> Thus, directly, we descend into incoherence, fatally undermining the credibility of reasoned thought: "Therefore, if materialism is true, the "thoughts" we have and the "conclusions" we reach, without residue, are produced and controlled by forces that are irrelevant to purpose, truth, or validity. Of course, the conclusions of such arguments may still happen to be true, by lucky coincidence — but we have no rational grounds for relying on the “reasoning” that has led us to feel that we have “proved” them. And, if our materialist friends then say: “But, we can always apply scientific tests, through observation, experiment and measurement,” then we must note that to demonstrate that such tests provide empirical support to their theories requires the use of the very process of reasoning which they have discredited! Thus, evolutionary materialism reduces reason itself to the status of illusion. But, immediately, that includes “Materialism.” For instance, Marxists commonly deride opponents for their “bourgeois class conditioning” — but what of the effect of their own class origins? Freudians frequently dismiss qualms about their loosening of moral restraints by alluding to the impact of strict potty training on their “up-tight” critics — but doesn’t this cut both ways? And, should we not simply ask a Behaviourist whether s/he is simply another operantly conditioned rat trapped in the cosmic maze? In the end, materialism is based on self-defeating logic . . . "
--> In short, the two analyses are closely related, not utterly distinct. --> Te major difference is that I have explicitly included chance and necessity as causal factors in my account. --> But randomness is just as opposed to intelligence as is mechanical necessity. ___________________ In short, one cannot simply label this an argument from reason then dodge away on the claim that the post is long so can be ignored, at the same time as one complains that evidence to show the incoherence is not being adduced. At least, if one intends to be intellectually responsible. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 3, 2010
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#44 KF - I am not going to get into the argument from reason here. It is separate from Barry's argument and requires a complex response which is why I am "routinely avoiding it". As you know I am averse to lengthy comments.markf
August 3, 2010
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Onlookers: Of course, MF routinely refuses to address where the connexion is made that exposes the contradiction, cf here and here above from 31 on. I excerpt the former: _____________ >> . . . [evolutionary] materialism [a worldview that often likes to wear the mantle of "science"] . . . argues that the cosmos is the product of chance interactions of matter and energy, within the constraint of the laws of nature. Therefore, all phenomena in the universe, without residue, are determined by the working of purposeless laws acting on material objects, under the direct or indirect control of chance. But human thought, clearly a phenomenon in the universe, must now fit into this picture. Thus, what we subjectively experience as "thoughts" and "conclusions" can only be understood materialistically as unintended by-products of the natural forces which cause and control the electro-chemical events going on in neural networks in our brains. (These forces are viewed as ultimately physical, but are taken to be partly mediated through a complex pattern of genetic inheritance ["nature"] and psycho-social conditioning ["nurture"], within the framework of human culture [i.e. socio-cultural conditioning and resulting/associated relativism].) Therefore, if materialism is true, the "thoughts" we have and the "conclusions" we reach, without residue, are produced and controlled by forces that are irrelevant to purpose, truth, or validity. Of course, the conclusions of such arguments may still happen to be true, by lucky coincidence — but we have no rational grounds for relying on the “reasoning” that has led us to feel that we have “proved” them. And, if our materialist friends then say: “But, we can always apply scientific tests, through observation, experiment and measurement,” then we must note that to demonstrate that such tests provide empirical support to their theories requires the use of the very process of reasoning which they have discredited! Thus, evolutionary materialism reduces reason itself to the status of illusion. But, immediately, that includes “Materialism.” For instance, Marxists commonly deride opponents for their “bourgeois class conditioning” — but what of the effect of their own class origins? Freudians frequently dismiss qualms about their loosening of moral restraints by alluding to the impact of strict potty training on their “up-tight” critics — but doesn’t this cut both ways? And, should we not simply ask a Behaviourist whether s/he is simply another operantly conditioned rat trapped in the cosmic maze? In the end, materialism is based on self-defeating logic . . . . >> _______________ And that is aside from how Barry A and others have repeatedly shown the particular incoherences of Mr Dawkins. Mere disagreement does not remove a fact from reality. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 3, 2010
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Just noticed Barry's update at the top. Barry - do you not agree that 1) There are lot of respectable philosophers as well as Dawkins that believe that materialism and determinism are compatible with free will? 2) If you believe that materialism and determinism are compatible with free will then you can consistently hold Dawkins' position that it is possible to rebel against the "otherwise universally selfish Darwinian impulse" 3) Are all the likes of Hume, Strawson and Dennett (and Dawkins) "simpering gutless fools" for arguing for what they believe and its consequences?markf
August 3, 2010
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#37 tgpeeler Of course the nature of abstractions is a long-standing philosophical problem - going back to the Greeks. I believe that Wittgenstein essentially solved it. Our intelligence is bewitched by language. We use nouns for abstractions such as mathematics and beauty and we also use nouns for concrete objects such as your car. That bewitches us into thinking that there is something that the abstract noun refers to just as the phrase "my car" refers to a something. And you begin to ask yourself perplexing questions such as "how do I perceive numbers?". Wittgenstein encouraged us to simply look at how we use words e.g. abstract nouns and mathematics. After a time you see his point of view and realise there isn't anything corresponding to these words - rather they are tools in certain activities such as mathematics. But this is a very long discussion - way beyond this blog. Have you read Philosophical Investigations? If not, I highly recommend it. In my opinion the best philosophical work since the Critique of Pure Reason.markf
August 2, 2010
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#34 JDH Thank you for your lengthy response. To pick up on your earlier points. You assert that there is a logical contradiction between materialism and free will - but you don't prove it - so it is hard to respond to that. I don't deny that the perception of a limb is far less complicated than the perception of free will. I only used the example to establish the principle that it is possible to have a radically different "internal" and "external" perception of the same material events or objects. To come to your main point. You write: You must conclude that due to the finite amount of conclusions available from my purely chemical brain, that there exist sequences of these 240 letters that I can not imagine. I just do not have the probabilistic resources to imagine all of them. But it seems that I can. But why do I have to be able to imagine all possible sequences in order to be able to write down 20 of them? Clearly you could have extended your example to include as large a set of possible sequences as you choose. I can write down any of the infinite number of positive integers but that doesn't mean I have to hold them all in my head simultaneously! Clearly I use a much more limited rule to create the digits - the same with the sequences of letters or building a house.markf
August 2, 2010
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IRQ Conflict - you're welcome, and thanks...tgpeeler
August 2, 2010
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JDH: Your 26^240 ~ 3.92*10^339. The number of Planck-time states of the atoms in the observed universe is ~10^150, less than the square root of the number you have cited. The whole universe cannot search out enougth of a fraciton of those states at random to make a difference, and to fing islands of defined fucntion is a non starter. So, you are right, our heads could not credibly be working based on forces of blind chance and mere mechanical necessity, to do what they do. So, one needs to account for intelligence in the human mind. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 2, 2010
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Mr. Peeler @37 Well said! Thanks for that.IRQ Conflict
August 2, 2010
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markf @ 29 I'd like to stick my neck out here and say that I can prove that materialism is false. Of course, that's been done at least a million times but here's maybe a different angle. If materialism is true. That is, if all that exists is the natural or physical or material world - however you want to say it - and if I am strictly a material being, with no mind or soul, then all I can know of the world is what I SENSE. I can see, hear, smell, taste, and touch. I have NO OTHER ACCESS to the physical world. So how is it that I am even aware of abstract things like mathematics?? Or laws? Or information? Those things, while sometimes expressed in physical substrates are not themselves physical. Who among us thinks that the Pythagorean theorem is destroyed when it is erased from the blackboard? Well, no one does, of course. So how, exactly, do I sense something like mathematics? It's not located in space/time (I looked under my desk at home and in a couple of closets but I couldn't find it). Mathematics doesn't have mass or inertia. Math is not subject to the laws of physics. It doesn't "fall" to earth when it is "dropped." Math cannot be converted to energy. Math cannot be used to heat or move matter. In other words, mathematics is ABSTRACT. It is not sensible. Yet I know of its existence. That proves to me that there is more to my brain than neurons and chemical processes. There must be an abstract part of us that accesses the abstract world just as our senses make us aware of the physical world. Let me put this in the form of modus tollens. If materialism is true, then I could not know of abstract things. But I do know of abstract things. Therefore, materialism is false. And by the way, speaking of sense experience. How is it, exactly, that the millions of sensations I have every day are experienced by me in a unified, coherent way? A priori, one would expect a being that was only a sensing machine to have no way to corral those experiences and turn them into a coherent whole. Our minds do that for us, too. Our senses are mediated by means of our minds. That's why we have unified sensory experiences. And that's how we have the facility of language, the manipulation of symbols according to arbitrary sets of rules, so that we can encode information in a physical substrate, transmit it, and it can be decoded on the other end. This process is incoherent apart from mind. There is no way in the world that physics can ever explain information. But that's another story. What falls out of this though is really cool. I'll just put it in the form of a categorical syllogism. Abstract things cannot be destroyed. The mind is an abstract thing. Therefore, the mind cannot be destroyed. Hello. Looks like life after death is not only possible, it is certain. Unless of course, someone can explain how non-physical things can be destroyed or show that the mind is physical. Good luck with that.tgpeeler
August 2, 2010
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Mung: "If there is cake, it will evolve." Especially if someone leaves it out in the rai ... er, if it's in an "open system."Ilion
August 2, 2010
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"Dawkins’ does not seem to understand that he cannot have his cake and eat it too, and that leads the world’s most prominent atheist/evolutionary biologist to make mutually exclusive truth claims ..." And worse than that, actually; as, for instance, I discuss hereIlion
August 2, 2010
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markf I am actually trying to learn something from you. I don't understand why you can not comprehend the obvious. What incredible psychological dodge are you using to not comprehend the big picture. Nothing you propose erases the logical contradiction between materialism and free will. It only demonstrates your deep need to somehow hang on to the possibility of their compatibility. In the real world, there is something so much more different than perception of where a leg is and the truly complicated human consideration of morality, free will, and choice. Please note:- even a very primitive animal like a lobster, has a perception of some kind of where its leg is. Perception of where my leg currently is, is so trivial compared to planning what time I am going to get up tomorrow. Let's test your little theory with a gedanken experiment. You will claim that all my mental faculties are just the product of chemical processes in my body. ( Notice, I don't restrict the thinking to the brain ). So I tell you I am going to write down twelve random sequences of letters each containing 20 letters chosen from the English alphabet. How many possibilities are there? Well if we consider all letter positions as independent of each other we come up with 20*12 or 240 letter positions. ( Note: they are probably not truly independent because they will be guided by my "understanding" of what a random sequence looks like, which I guarantee you falls short of being truly random ) How many unique sequences are there? That's easy 26^240. A number so large it dwarfs the number of particles in the perceived universe. You must conclude that due to the finite amount of conclusions available from my purely chemical brain, that there exist sequences of these 240 letters that I can not imagine. I just do not have the probabilistic resources to imagine all of them. But it seems that I can. There is no reasonable conclusion you can make that some of the sequences were just not available to me. This was just a trivial example of letters arranged in sequences. It pales in comparison to some real activity like designing a house, painting a picture or typing in a comment to a blog. Therefore, I conclude that your theory, that my brain is limited to the imaginations that can be conjured up by a finite set of chemical reactions is preposterous. I don't see how you can continue to think such an easily defeated proposition.JDH
August 2, 2010
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#30 Lock I am not convinced that this (idea, arrived at by thinking) should be taken seriously. markf: “The person doing the thinking has a subjective view.” Why do you state that idea as an objective matter of fact when you arrived there by thinking? I think there may some confusion over the word "subjective" (my fault). I use the phrase "subjective view" simply as a label for the how thinking appears to you when you are doing the thinking. I don't mean that it is a matter of opinion, or in anyway mean to suggest that view is inferior to the neurosurgeon's view. markf: “A neurosurgeon might (in theory) see the same activity as the firing of neurons. Different view – same activity” No, not ‘see’… the neurosurgeon might ‘think of’. No - I mean't literally see the same activity (well presumably through some scanning device given the scale). This is a thought experiment. It is something that could conceivably happen. Of course I understand it is not possible at the moment. My point is simply that it is logically possible.markf
August 2, 2010
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I wish I did not have to drive home the same lessons over and over again, but the insistent repetition of already long sicne corrected errors leaves me but little choice. Now, all of this breaks down into self referential incoherence and amorality so soon as we examine the inner workings of what is being claimed, in light of the evolutionary materialistic model of origins: ________________ >> [evolutionary] materialism [a worldview that often likes to wear the mantle of "science"] . . . argues that the cosmos is the product of chance interactions of matter and energy, within the constraint of the laws of nature. Therefore, all phenomena in the universe, without residue, are determined by the working of purposeless laws acting on material objects, under the direct or indirect control of chance. But human thought, clearly a phenomenon in the universe, must now fit into this picture. Thus, what we subjectively experience as "thoughts" and "conclusions" can only be understood materialistically as unintended by-products of the natural forces which cause and control the electro-chemical events going on in neural networks in our brains. (These forces are viewed as ultimately physical, but are taken to be partly mediated through a complex pattern of genetic inheritance ["nature"] and psycho-social conditioning ["nurture"], within the framework of human culture [i.e. socio-cultural conditioning and resulting/associated relativism].) Therefore, if materialism is true, the "thoughts" we have and the "conclusions" we reach, without residue, are produced and controlled by forces that are irrelevant to purpose, truth, or validity. Of course, the conclusions of such arguments may still happen to be true, by lucky coincidence — but we have no rational grounds for relying on the “reasoning” that has led us to feel that we have “proved” them. And, if our materialist friends then say: “But, we can always apply scientific tests, through observation, experiment and measurement,” then we must note that to demonstrate that such tests provide empirical support to their theories requires the use of the very process of reasoning which they have discredited! Thus, evolutionary materialism reduces reason itself to the status of illusion. But, immediately, that includes “Materialism.” For instance, Marxists commonly deride opponents for their “bourgeois class conditioning” — but what of the effect of their own class origins? Freudians frequently dismiss qualms about their loosening of moral restraints by alluding to the impact of strict potty training on their “up-tight” critics — but doesn’t this cut both ways? And, should we not simply ask a Behaviourist whether s/he is simply another operantly conditioned rat trapped in the cosmic maze? In the end, materialism is based on self-defeating logic . . . . In Law, Government, and Public Policy, the same bitter seed has shot up the idea that "Right" and "Wrong" are simply arbitrary social conventions. This has often led to the adoption of hypocritical, inconsistent, futile and self-destructive public policies. "Truth is dead," so Education has become a power struggle; the victors have the right to propagandise the next generation as they please. Media power games simply extend this cynical manipulation from the school and the campus to the street, the office, the factory, the church and the home. Further, since family structures and rules of sexual morality are "simply accidents of history," one is free to force society to redefine family values and principles of sexual morality to suit one's preferences. Finally, life itself is meaningless and valueless, so the weak, sick, defenceless and undesirable — for whatever reason — can simply be slaughtered, whether in the womb, in the hospital, or in the death camp. In short, ideas sprout roots, shoot up into all aspects of life, and have consequences in the real world . . . >> ________________ Nor is this new or unique to our time, as the roots lie in the imposed evolutionary materialistic worldview, not the findings of science (even when such science is taken captive to that worldview). Here is Plato in the voice of the Athenian Stranger, in his The Laws, Bk X, 360 BC, about 2300 years ago, with the fate of Athens at the hands of Alcibiades and co still before his eyes:
Ath. . . . [[The avant garde philosophers and poets, c. 360 BC] say that fire and water, and earth and air [[i.e the classical "material" elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art, and that as to the bodies which come next in order-earth, and sun, and moon, and stars-they have been created by means of these absolutely inanimate existences. The elements are severally moved by chance and some inherent force according to certain affinities among them-of hot with cold, or of dry with moist, or of soft with hard, and according to all the other accidental admixtures of opposites which have been formed by necessity. After this fashion and in this manner the whole heaven has been created, and all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only. [[In short, evolutionary materialism premised on chance plus necessity acting without intelligent guidance on primordial matter is hardly a new or a primarily "scientific" view!] . . . . [[Thus, they hold that t]he Gods exist not by nature, but by art, and by the laws of states, which are different in different places, according to the agreement of those who make them; and that the honourable is one thing by nature and another thing by law, and that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.- [[Relativism, too, is not new.] These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might, and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions, these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is, to live in real dominion over others, and not in legal subjection to them.
The more things "progress" and dismiss the hard-won lessons of the past, the more they revert to the same old errors with the same old sadly predictable results. When will we learn and make real progress? GEM of TKIkairosfocus
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H'mm: Let's inject William Provine's remarks at the 1998 Darwin Day celebrations at University of Tennessee (a most fateful location, given issues discussed here): _____________ >> Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent . . . . The first 4 implications are so obvious to modern naturalistic evolutionists that I will spend little time defending them. Human free will, however, is another matter. Even evolutionists have trouble swallowing that implication. I will argue that humans are locally determined systems that make choices. They have, however, no free will . . . . Without free will, justification for revenge disappears and rehabilitation is the main job of judicial systems and prisons. [[NB: As C. S Lewis warned, in the end, this means: reprogramming through new conditioning determined by the power groups controlling the society and its prisons.] We will all live in a better society when the myth of free will is dispelled . . . . How can we have meaning in life? When we die we are really dead; nothing of us survives. Natural selection is a process leading every species almost certainly to extinction . . . Nothing could be more uncaring than the entire process of organic evolution. Life has been on earth for about 3.6 billion years. In less that one billion more years our sun will turn into a red giant. All life on earth will be burnt to a crisp. Other cosmic processes absolutely guarantee the extinction of all life anywhere in the universe. When all life is extinguished, no memory whatsoever will be left that life ever existed. Yet our lives are filled with meaning. Proximate meaning is more important than ultimate. Even if we die, we can have deeply [[subjectively and culturally] meaningful lives . . . . [[Evolution: Free Will and Punishment and Meaning in Life, Second Annual Darwin Day Celebration Keynote Address, University of Tennessee, Knoxville, February 12, 1998 (abstract).] >> ______________ Got that: humans are locally determined systems that make choices. They have, however, no free will . . . ? So far as I can see, the sort of compatibilism so often raised boils down to equivocating on Provine's distinction between being locally [causally] determined on forces of chance and necessity tracing to genetic and socio-cultural-behvioural conditioning, and making what we subjectively experience as choices. In short, choice -- on evolutionary materialism -- is a delusion of grandeur of creatures who boil down to the neurological equivalent of gears grinding away in Liebniz's Mill. As Crick so openly said in his 1994 The Astonishing Hypothesis:
. . . that "You", your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. As Lewis Carroll's Alice might have phrased: "You're nothing but a pack of neurons." This hypothesis is so alien to the ideas of most people today that it can truly be called astonishing.
All of this is ever so patently self-referentially incoherent . . . CONT'D . . .kairosfocus
August 2, 2010
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I am not convinced that this (idea, arrived at by thinking) should be taken seriously. markf: "The person doing the thinking has a subjective view." Why do you state that idea as an objective matter of fact when you arrived there by thinking? markf: "A neurosurgeon might (in theory) see the same activity as the firing of neurons. Different view – same activity" No, not 'see'... the neurosurgeon might 'think of'.Lock
August 2, 2010
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OK I will stick my neck out and try and explain as succinctly as I can why I find materialism compatible with both the mind and free will. Of course, it is utterly impossible to do justice to this on a blog - but maybe I can convince some people it is a viewpoint worth taking seriously. We all know that the same thing can appear utterly different depending on how you perceive it. This could be as simple as seeing a street at night or in broad daylight. One vivid example of this is our perception of our limbs. I know the position of my leg in a completely different way from the doctor who is examining me - but there is only the one leg (well two actually). So far, so trivial, I would hope. For me much the same thing applies to mental activities such as thinking. The person doing the thinking has a subjective view. A neurosurgeon might (in theory) see the same activity as the firing of neurons. Different view - same activity. Another mental activity is deciding, an activity that is at the core of free will. Deciding is acting consciously in the light of motives and context. Subjectively it has a certain flavour which distinguishes it from e.g. involuntary actions such as blinking. But you can imagine that one day there might also be a neurosurgeon's view of this activity. And that neurosurgeon might even be able to predict what the subject will decide to do given its motives and the context. That does not stop it being a genuine decision based on what the subject wants to do and the context. It may be that neuroscience will never get to this stage - but there is no logical reason why it should not - and if it does that doesn't suddenly make all decisions involuntary. I know it is hard to accept this at first. But much of quantum physics is incredibly hard to accept. I only want to argue that it is logically possible.markf
August 2, 2010
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above@22 writes: "He’s not a philosopher. He is just a confused zoologist." :) LOL, well a confused zoologist is really just a bad philospher. Everyone is a philosopher. Unfortunately, many are terrible at it. As C.S. lewis said somehwere, "you can't change bad intuition" (paraphrased). Some masquerade as many other things (including zoologists) while their philosphy goes unseen, implied under the surface, and casts a spell over an entire culture. It is as though many are not conscious of the fact that they are thinking! The Bible calls it spirtual darkness and death. But that is so not PC.Lock
August 1, 2010
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I agree with the writer. Dawkins shows here how inconsistent he is. I appreciate the fact that he realizes that his view does away with good and evil and that he admits this up front. I think that is the death knell of his theory because it is impossible to live as if there is no good and evil. We all know there is good and evil in our hearts. If someone comes up and rapes his daughter, he would be sorely tempted to call that evil. However, if there is no such thing, he would have to shut up and just chalk it up to the process of evolution. He would have no right to complain. Oh sure, the guy broke a law, but only a man made law that has no ultimate meaning. He has a gripe there, but he cannot call the act evil. Everything whether it is seen to be "good" or "evil" according to his theory is just a part of the evolutionary process. Given the fact that evolution has been so successful up until now, far be it from us to try and intervene and foolishly think we can do better. How arrogant! However, the fact that it is really impossible to live that way is a big clue as to whether or not his ideas are accurate or not.tjm
August 1, 2010
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Barry, This is very well presented. Can I put this on my own website if I link back here to U.D.? BKA: Yes.bb
August 1, 2010
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What I don't understand is why strict materialism is seriously discussed at all. It would seem only complete fools would waste time on it. The easiest things to disprove are absolute assertions. This is because they provide no wiggle room. Someone who makes an absolute assertion that there is not mind that exists outside of materialistic processes has already contradicted themselves. They STATE they have made a CHOICE And that CHOICE is to believe that they CAN NOT CHOOSE. And by the way, you should CHOOSE also to believe you have no CHOICE either. There is absolutely no amount of rhetoric and double speak that can get you out of that logical contradiction. Anybody who claims to have succeeded has only put forward enough rhetoric to confuse himself into thinking he has a coherent position.JDH
August 1, 2010
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@house I've seen a lot of atheists, some of which are friends of mine, who detest what these so-called new atheists are doing. I also have another friend who has become a carbon copy of dawkins filled with hate and anger so I've experienced both. In my opinion the new atheists are no different than the religious fundamentalists they hate, so I tend to treat them both as one distinct group with a likeminded mentality than anything else. I think these people are very destructive for both science and religion and society as a whole.above
August 1, 2010
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I would note that I've encountered a remnant of atheists who very much dislike this trend of so-called neo-atheism à la Dawkins, Hitchens etc. That is, those atheists who don't just choose to disbelieve in God or in any higher power, but who actively detest any form of religion or spiritualism (especially Christianity). One such man springs to mind: Theodore Dalrymple. http://johncwright.livejournal.com/250324.html Above is a critique of his on the subject of 'neo-atheism.'HouseStreetRoom
August 1, 2010
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@lock -“Clearly Dawkins’ philosphy is incoherent. There is almost nothing to say about it. He is the latest in a long list of incoherent philosophers.” He’s not a philosopher. He is just a confused zoologist. ;)above
August 1, 2010
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RE:18 BA surely you are not taking the position that nothing determines our choices? Vividvividbleau
August 1, 2010
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markf: "My point is simply that a large number of internationally recognised philosophers would deny that Dawkins philosophy is incoherent." And they are wrong.Barry Arrington
August 1, 2010
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#16 Barry - I don't want to rerun recreate the debate on compatibilism which ran for 190 odd comments. My point is simply that a large number of internationally recognised philosophers would deny that Dawkins philosophy is incoherent.markf
August 1, 2010
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markf, compatabilism is indeed a semantic dodge. I take it on here: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/compatible-not-really/Barry Arrington
August 1, 2010
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