Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

ID is Not an Argument from Ignorance

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ID opponents sometimes attempt to dismiss ID theory as an “argument from ignorance.”  Their assertion goes something like this:

1.  ID consists of nothing more than the claim that undirected material forces are insufficient to account for either the irreducible complexity (IC) or the functionally specific complex information (FSCI) found in living things. 

2.  This purely negative assertion is an invalid argument from ignorance.  As a matter of logic, they say, it is false to state that our present ignorance concerning how undirected material forces can account for either the IC or the FSCI found in living things (i.e., our “absence of evidence”), means no such evidence exists.  In other words, our present ignorance of a material cause of IC and FSCI is not evidence that no such cause exists.

This rejoinder to ID fails for at least two reasons.  First, ID is not, as its opponents suggest, a purely negative argument that material forces are insufficient to account for IC and FSCI.  At its root ID is an abductive conclusion (i.e., inference to best explanation) concerning the data.  This conclusion may be stated in summary as follows: 

1.  Living things display IC and FSCI.

2.  Material forces have never been shown to produce IC and FSCI.

3.  Intelligent agents routinely produce IC and FSCI.

4.  Therefore, based on the evidence that we have in front of us, the best explanation for the presence of IC and FSCI in living things is that they are the result of acts of an intelligent agent.

The second reason the “argument from ignorance” objection fails is that the naysayers’ assertion that ID depends on an “absence of evidence” is simply false.  In fact, ID rests on evidence of absence.  In his Introduction to Logic Irving Marmer Copi writes of evidence of absence as follows:

In some circumstances it can be safely assumed that if a certain event had occurred, evidence of it could be discovered by qualified investigators. In such circumstances it is perfectly reasonable to take the absence of proof of its occurrence as positive proof of its non-occurrence.

How does this apply to the Neo-Darwinian claim that undirected material forces can produce IC and FSCI?  Charles Darwin published Origin of Species in 1859.  In the 152 years since that time literally tens of thousands of highly qualified investigators have worked feverishly attempting to demonstrate that undirected material forces can produce IC and FSCI.  They have failed utterly. 

Has there been a reasonable investigation by qualified investigators?  By any fair measure there has been.  Has that 152 year-long investigation shown how undirected material forces can account for IC or FSCI?  It has not.

Therefore, simple logic dictates that “it is perfectly reasonable to take the absence of proof” that undirected material forces can account for IC and FSCI as “positive proof of its non-occurrence.”

As far as I can see, there are two and only two responses the Darwinists can make to this argument:

1.  The investigation has not been reasonable or reasonably lengthy.

2.  Give us more time; the answer is just around the corner.

Response 1 is obvious rubbish.  If thousands of researchers working for over 150 years is not a reasonable search, the term “reasonable search” loses all meaning.

Response 2 is just more of the same Darwinist promissory notes we get all the time.  How many such notes will go unpaid before we start demanding that the materialists start paying COD?

Comments
MathGrrl propagandizes this statement; 'Durston’s metric is not the same and, as far as I know, has not been claimed or demonstrated to be such an indicator.' Well Durston in this video, clearly is claiming that functional Information (FITS) is a reliable indicator of Intelligence; Mathematically Defining Functional Information In Molecular Biology - Kirk Durston - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3995236/ ,,, But alas MathGrrl this does not really matter to you does it??? for you are not really interested in pursuing the truth in the first place!bornagain77
April 12, 2011
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Joseph,
Another confusion for MathGrrl is her refusal to understand that CSI pertains to ORIGINS.
That appears to be your own idiosyncratic view, not shared by many, if any, other ID proponents.MathGrrl
April 12, 2011
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Joseph,
Claude Shannon provided the math for information. Specification is Shannon information with meaning/ function (in biology specified information is cashed out as biological function).
Dembski does not use Shannon information. Further, Schneider has shown that a small subset of known evolutionary mechanisms can generate arbitrary amounts of Shannon information.
And Complex means it is specified information of 500 bits or more- that math being taken care of in “No Free Lunch”.
And yet, no one in my guest thread was able to provide detailed calculations of CSI for the four scenarios I described.MathGrrl
April 12, 2011
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kairosfocus,
Observe how MG has again ducked the issue of the definition offered in the literature by Orgel and Wicken, in the 1970?s.
As I explained repeatedly in the thread following my guest post and just above to Paul Giem, I am interested in CSI as defined by Dembski since that is what is claimed by many ID proponents as a clear indication of the involvement of intelligent agency. Orgel's work is completely dissimilar except for the name.MathGrrl
April 12, 2011
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Paul Giem,
Some objects, specifically DNA and protein sequences, can have their CSI much more easily measured. I have yet to see you deal with Durston KK et al., ( http://www.tbiomed.com/content/4/1/47 ), even though their article was cited in the comments to your post
I am interested in CSI as defined by Dembski since that is what is claimed by many ID proponents as a clear indication of the involvement of intelligent agency. Durston's metric is not the same and, as far as I know, has not been claimed or demonstrated to be such an indicator.MathGrrl
April 12, 2011
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kuartus,
My understanding is that CSI is the same thing as specified complexity.
My understanding from Dembski's writings is that CSI is specified complexity that exceeds a certain number of bits, so I think we're in near agreement.
Are you saying that we cannot recognize specified complexity if we cant calculate it accurately?
Specified complexity and CSI are presented as objective numerical metrics. I am saying that, without a rigorous mathematical definition, the terms are literally meaningless.MathGrrl
April 12, 2011
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Another confusion for MathGrrl is her refusal to understand that CSI pertains to ORIGINS. I provided the quotes from Dembski and Meyer but she refuses to accept it. Willful ignorance is not a good way to try to learn about something. Why is this important? She brings up gene duplications. Gene duplications in already existing organisms. That is cheating as gene duplications can only be called blind watchmaker processes if living organisms arose from non-living matter via blind watchmaker processes- all about origins. The point being is a gene duplication in a design scenario would not increase the existing CSI as it would be part of it. And if the blind watchmaker produced living organisms from non-living matter then you don't need gene duplications, ID is already falsified. Which brings us to her equivocal use of "evolutionary mechanisms". The point of CSI is that blind watchmaker processes cannot generate it it from scratch and "evolutionary" mechanisms can, for all she knows, be design mechanisms. She thinks that just because we understand the process it means it is a blind watchmaker process. She also thinks that ID requires a designer to come in and physically change the DNA. I'm telling you this person is fried. To wit- we understand the process of executing computer programs- the paths the signals take to produce a result. Yet no one would say computers run via blind watchmaker processes. And I don't need a computer programmer here to make the decisions the program can make without intervention. IOW she doesn't even understand the first thing about Intelligent Design. OK, moving on. In her point 3 she has a digital organism of 22 bytes. 22 bytes = 176 bits. That is 176 bits of information carrying capacity so depending on the specificity that will determine the amount of specified information. So that is how you do it- count the bits and check on the variability. If you have 500 bits but any arrangement can cause the same effect then it ain't specified.Joseph
April 12, 2011
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MathGrrl: I asked for a rigorous mathematical definition of CSI... Nice strawman- the following is what you get: Claude Shannon provided the math for information. Specification is Shannon information with meaning/ function (in biology specified information is cashed out as biological function). And Complex means it is specified information of 500 bits or more- that math being taken care of in "No Free Lunch". That is it- specified information of 500 bits or more is Complex Specified Information. It is that simple. IOW CSI is what we humans use every day to communicate and get things done. And if MathGrrl cannot grasp that concept then she isn't worth the effort.Joseph
April 12, 2011
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Onlookers: Observe how MG has again ducked the issue of the definition offered in the literature by Orgel and Wicken, in the 1970's. Judging by how LYO has used the same notion of if we do not have a mathematical definition as a dismissive talking point, I read this as little more than a strawman, dismissive rhetorical tactic. Let us note, that if we apply the same standard to anything, including the assertion that absent numerical quantification statements are meaningless, we end up with the absurdity that the position statement insisting on such is itself meaningless, as we face an infinite regress of demands for quantification. Quantification is important -- and it is addressed in the case of both CSI and the relevant subset FSCI [noting also the recent remarks here that the different metrics are fairly closely related] -- but it is not a be all and end all of relevant understanding. Finally, we should not let the issue of quantification be abused as a dismissive talking point. If MG et al are not willing to claim that Orgel and Wicken were "meaningless" when they gave definitions as cited in 7 above, then that is as plain a refutation of the assertion as can be desired. We should not be intimidated by ill-founded, dismissive talking points. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
April 11, 2011
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MathGrrl, You are right that it can sometimes prove difficult to associate a specific number with a specific object as a measure of its complex specified information. vjtorley has struggled with this problem in two recent posts, trying to give an estimate for the CSI of the "2001" monolith. Everyone who watched the movie (except those who deliberately closed their minds to it) recognized that this was a designed object because its very unusual shape precluded a non-intelligent origin for that shape--that was the whole premise of the movie; but whether its CSI was 1000 or 10^6 or 10^12 or some other number is a difficult calculation. However, just because it is difficult to give a specific number to every designed object does not mean that the same difficulty exists for all objects with CSI. Some objects, specifically DNA and protein sequences, can have their CSI much more easily measured. I have yet to see you deal with Durston KK et al., ( http://www.tbiomed.com/content/4/1/47 ), even though their article was cited in the comments to your post (Comments 12, 250, 320, 333, 340, 365, 391, 392, 393, 394, 420, and 431--I left out comments 215 and 216 as not being specific enough) and two links were given; you sidestepped the issue, specifically in comment 396. Could you please explain to us why Durston et al.'s (peer-reviewed) calculations are not correct, and that FCSI either has no meaning, or cannot be quantified in at least some cases; or else concede the point that FCSI, and therefore CSI, has meaning in at least some (biologically relevant) cases.Paul Giem
April 11, 2011
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Mathgrrl: "without a rigorous mathematical defintion and examples of how to calculate it, the metric is literally meaningless. Without such a definition and examples, it isn’t possible even in principle to associate the term with a real world referent" My understanding is that CSI is the same thing as specified complexity. Are you saying that we cannot recognize specified complexity if we cant calculate it accurately? Specified complexity is just that! Complexity that is specified. Something that is complex is something that is improbable. Something that is specified is something that conforms to an independent pattern. If something is both complex and specified, then it is specified complexity. An example would be shakespear's sonnet. It is both extremely improbable to come about by chance and at the same time it is meaningful. So there. Even if you cant calculate a number for it, we still know it is a real thing. You just cant argue that.kuartus
April 11, 2011
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Barry Arrington,
In her post mathgirl asserted that functional complex specified information cannot be measured in a mathematically rigorous way.
That's not quite correct. I asked for a rigorous mathematical definition of CSI and some example calculations, rather than any of its derivatives, since that is the metric described by Dembski and asserted by many ID proponents to be a clear indicator of the involvement of an intelligent agent.
She is wrong about that, as the comments on her own post demonstrate.
Actually, the posts in that very long thread demonstrate that no one who participated was able to provide that rigorous mathematical definition nor was anyone able to provide example calculations. vjtorley has started at least two other threads since that confirm that conclusion.
But whether she is wrong or right is beside the point with respect to my post. Even mathgirl does not deny the EXISTENCE of FCSI. Why do you?
As noted, I was discussing CSI rather than any of its variants such as FCSI. My conclusion is that, without a rigorous mathematical defintion and examples of how to calculate it, the metric is literally meaningless. Without such a definition and examples, it isn't possible even in principle to associate the term with a real world referent.MathGrrl
April 11, 2011
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Good stuff Barry. My personal take when confronted with the old argument from ignorance or its sister argument "from incredulity", is that those objections are invalid because the data used to support ID is largely based on statistical mechanics. The principles of SM simply do not allow Darwinian macro-evolution to be even possible. Combinatorial dependencies abound in the genome. i.e. structures that depend on other structures that depend on more structures, information that depends on other information,... and so on. This is obvious in things like organic machines like the famous E. Coli flagellum. The protein parts are inter-dependent & you cannot just invent a just-so story to explain their existence or more importantly their correct assembly by precise instructions. Indeed, Darwinists have no clue where the assembly instructions for putting the protein parts together in the correct order come from let alone how the parts "evolved" -all in the correct forms and materials etc. Parts in any machine have to be precisely aligned, with correct strengths, material properties, distances, viscosity, output torque, size, power factors, rpm, etc.etc In short, parts must fit. Parts must endure stress factors applied to them. Parts must be aligned. Parts must have the correct physical properties ... No different for such organic engines. Darwinists NEVER even think about these things. Engineers do. Darwinists have no clue what they're asking of unguided, chance processes just for constructing a "simple" bacterial motor let alone something like DNA or an entire genome. Combinatorial dependencies in any complex mechanism always imply statistical mechanics (SM). SM has nothing to do with ignorance incredulity. SM has to do with the laws of physics and chemistry... whether any motor can function with weak, mis-sized, misaligned, poor friction etc etc. SM determines whether it is possible for such machines to even exist and what the probabilities are on whether or not they can just "evolve" and assemble without reason or guidance. Arguing from ignorance and unwarranted credulity, in fact, is the sole domain of the whole Darwinian scenario! We are given stories in place of empirical evidence. We are told how such and such COULD, MAYBE, MIGHT have occurred So where do these blind Darwinists get off claiming IDists use ignorance based args when they are more guilty of it than any other domain in the history of science?! All we've been shown is quaint "possible" stories that we are supposed to believe on sheer ungrounded faith. The ignorance arguments in Darwinism are ubiquitous - otherwise we would have no reason for just-so stories at all. Newton needed no imaginative narrative for explaining calculus, gravity or the laws of motion. When IDists use specified complexity, combinatorial dependencies, and prescribed information arguments against Darwinian idiocy, they are in fact using SM. It has nothing to do with either ignorance or incredulity. Let the Darwieners defend themselves in their own use of mass waves of args from ignorance and sheer credulity. They never have and indeed they cannot. Their literature is full of it.Borne
April 11, 2011
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2. Material forces have never been shown to produce IC and FSCI. This is and has been under debate. The following observations that are based upon this assumption are then also in debate. Please take me off moderation the only posts that ever get through are the ones where i mention i go to church.grizzfan
April 11, 2011
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LYO: Let us start with the original "meaningless" conceptual definitions of FSCI and CSI, by two notorious, dunce ID-iots called Orgel [1973] and Wicken [1979]. NOT! Orgel:
. . . In brief, living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals are usually taken as the prototypes of simple well-specified structures, because they consist of a very large number of identical molecules packed together in a uniform way. Lumps of granite or random mixtures of polymers are examples of structures that are complex but not specified. The crystals fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; the mixtures of polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity. [[The Origins of Life (John Wiley, 1973), p. 189.]
Wicken:
‘Organized’ systems are to be carefully distinguished from ‘ordered’ systems. Neither kind of system is ‘random,’ but whereas ordered systems are generated according to simple algorithms [[i.e. “simple” force laws acting on objects starting from arbitrary and common- place initial conditions] and therefore lack complexity, organized systems must be assembled element by element according to an [[originally . . . ] external ‘wiring diagram’ with a high information content . . . Organization, then, is functional complexity and carries information. It is non-random by design or by selection, rather than by the a priori necessity of crystallographic ‘order.’ [[“The Generation of Complexity in Evolution: A Thermodynamic and Information-Theoretical Discussion,” Journal of Theoretical Biology, 77 (April 1979): p. 353, of pp. 349-65.]
MG et al have been conspicuously silent on the question as to whether Orgel and Wicken were spouting meaningless verbiage. The answer is obvious, they are not. As to the issue of mathematical quantifications, there have been two major ones in the literature, and around UD we have been using as well a simple, brute force metric, the X-metric. DNA complements in living organisms are functional in making he proteins, they are coded ans specific. The DNA complement of unicellular life forms starts out north of 100,000 bases or double that in bits. This is well past the threshold of 1,000 bits where the number of possible configs is 1.07*10^301, or more than the SQUARE of the number of Planck time states of the atoms of our observable universe across its thermodynamic lifespan. In short blind watchmaker style random walks and trial and error are unable to even scratch the surface of the possibilities, so that the only analytically credible source of such FSCI, which is plainly quantifiable -- is intelligence. Beyond that, the more rigorous quantification of FSCI proper, by Durston et al -- on an extension of Shannon's H-metric of average information per symbol in a string, was published in the peer reviewed literature, with measured/ calculated values for 35 protein families. Back in 2007, as you can read in the UD Weak Argument Corrective 27, which has been there for several years now. All of which was brought to MG's attention, and all of which was willfully ignored and dismissed. Besides, all of us who post in this thread thereby routinely produce known examples of FSCI in so doing: strings of text in ASCII English characters in excess of 143 characters, that respond to a set theme. In short, the announced dismissive blindness to what FSCI is, is willfuly self-referentially absurd. That is, if anything, it is this particular ATBC talking point that is meaningless. Good day GEM of TKIkairosfocus
April 11, 2011
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lastyearon, If you don't like Barry's general example, try dealing with my specific example. I presume you don't deny the existence of long complex specified strings of DNA, whether or not they contain IC or FSCI, or even whether such concepts makes sense.Paul Giem
April 11, 2011
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lastyearon #3
If so, how can you continue to claim that living things contain FSCI, when you know that no one can even rigorously define it or figure out how to accurately identify it?
Living things are giant functional hierarchies of organization. No reasonable person can deny that. Do you deny that your body carries out millions of hierarchical functions? The fact that this is not easily quantifiable with a number (FSCI or whatever) strengthens the case of intelligent design rather than weakens it. In fact only simple and unqualified things are easily quantifiable with a single number. For example, how would you represent or measure the organization of your computer by mean of a number? Not easy really. Or do you deny also that your computer carries out many hierarchical functions? Your reply to Barry's post is only "red herring", to divert attention from his right argument.niwrad
April 11, 2011
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lastyearon, You are mistaken. In her post mathgirl asserted that functional complex specified information cannot be measured in a mathematically rigorous way. She is wrong about that, as the comments on her own post demonstrate. But whether she is wrong or right is beside the point with respect to my post. Even mathgirl does not deny the EXISTENCE of FCSI. Why do you?Barry Arrington
April 11, 2011
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Hi Barry, You state
1. Living things display IC and FSCI. 2. Material forces have never been shown to produce IC and FSCI. 3. Intelligent agents routinely produce IC and FSCI. 4. Therefore, based on the evidence that we have in front of us, the best explanation for the presence of IC and FSCI in living things is that they are the result of acts of an intelligent agent.
Have you read Mathgrrl's post asking for a definition of FSCI on this very blog, and getting no good answers? If so, how can you continue to claim that living things contain FSCI, when you know that no one can even rigorously define it or figure out how to accurately identify it?lastyearon
April 11, 2011
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Barry, I agree wholeheartedly. In fact, in one specific area the argument can be sharpened considerably. It goes like this: A. Humans are intelligent agents. We may not know the nature of intelligence, or how it works, but that it exists is not in question. The denial of this fact has certain unavoidable negative self-referential implications. In other words, speak for yourself, buddy. B. Humans have been known to produce long enough, and complex enough, and specified enough strings of DNA to serve as the operating system of a cell. Since humans are intelligent agents, it follows that at least some intelligent agents can produce such DNA strings. C. Nature without the intervention of intelligent agents has not been demonstrated to produce such DNA strings. Furthermore, this lack of demonstration has not been for lack of trying; misguided trying, perhaps, but not lack of trying. In addition, there is no well-accepted theory that does not start with the conclusion as one of its premises, that shows how such DNA strings could reasonably have arisen in nature without intelligent guidance. D. Therefore, it is more reasonable to believe that such DNA strings were originally the product of an intelligent agent or agents, than to believe that nature produced such DNA strings without the aid of intelligent agents. This conclusion is, of course, at least theoretically subject to change. Premise B may not turn out to be correct; Venter's project could be a fraud. And Premise C could (theoretically) easily be falsified by someone showing simple essentially unguided processes producing long complex specified strings of DNA. But the present weight of evidence favors the conclusion; those who oppose it are going on faith in the teeth of the presently available evidence. Personally, I just don't have that kind of faith.Paul Giem
April 11, 2011
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Seeing that the design inference is based on our knowledge of cause and effect relationships, it cannot be an argument from ignorance. And seeing that the current theory of evolution relies on our ignorance it can be called an argument from ignorance. :cool:Joseph
April 11, 2011
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