Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

50 Christmases Later

Categories
Intelligent Design
Share
Facebook
Twitter/X
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

December 19, 1971 was a Sunday, the last one before Christmas.  I was ten.  My sister was eleven.  We went with our family to the evening service at Trinity Baptist Church in Boyd, Texas.  After services my parents left us with a group that was going Christmas caroling.  We never made it to the first house.

Our church was on the highway on the western edge of town.   Our group of about 20 carolers walked along the side the highway toward the first neighborhood a few hundred yards away.  The leaders were in the front and back of the group.  My sister and I were with the kids in the middle.  My memories of what happened next are episodic.  I don’t know if this is because I was in and out of consciousness or if my mind will not let me remember.  This is what I do remember.

It is a dark night.  We are walking along the side of the road.  My friends are around me.  Two headlights.  Screeching tires.  Screams.  Darkness.

Laying in a ditch.  Where is Robin?  Grabbing hands full of weeds as I crawl in the ditch.  Why can’t I stand?  Darkness.

Laying on the side of the road.  Someone has laid a coat over me.  A crowd has gathered around a car.  Yelling.  A man is beating someone with his fists.  Darkness.

The flashing lights of ambulances.  My mother is here.  She is hysterical.  She is screaming and fighting with a man who will not let her into an ambulance.  Darkness.

In an ambulance going down the road.  My father is beside me.  He weeps silently.  Darkness.

Bright lights of a hospital.  A doctor is wrapping plaster around my leg.  I see one of my friends on the other side of the room.  Sleep.

Later I learned that a drunken 19 year-old man had swerved toward the group as a joke to frighten us.  He lost control and drove into the middle of the group among the kids.  Eight were injured, including me and my sister, and one nine year-old girl was killed when the car pinned her against a highway post.  This girl was wearing the same style coat as my sister, and my mother had fought to get into the ambulance with her, thinking it was her daughter.  My sister was in a different ambulance, and my father was weeping because the entire trip with me to the hospital in Fort Worth he thought Robin was dead. 

Robin was not dead, but she was badly injured.  She was hit so hard that her body became a projectile that struck another kid and broke his leg.  She sustained a broken nose, a broken leg, a broken arm and injuries to her spinal cord.  She had operations and lived a fairly normal life, though she always struggled with fine motor skills.  Over 40 years later, in 2014, complications from her injuries caused her to become a quadriplegic.  She lived six more years and died in 2020.  By comparison, my injuries were slight, a broken leg from which I fully recovered. 

What to make of all of this?  Terrible, senseless things happen to children as Ivan Karamazov recounted in his famous indictment of God.  How can a loving God allow this?  I have contemplated the theodicy for decades, and in that time I have learned only one thing for certain.  Ivan’s indictment cannot be refuted by logic.  If it can be countered at all, it can be countered only as Alyosha countered it, by faith in God’s love as demonstrated though Christ’s sacrifice on the cross.  Robin trusted.  She forgave.  She did not allow bitterness to consume her soul.  This is our second Christmas without her, but I will see her again.  With joy in my heart, I sing the old song:

I’ll meet you in the morning
With a how do you do
And we’ll sit down by the river
And with rapture old acquaintance renew
You’ll know me in the morning
By the smile that I wear
When I meet you in the morning
In that city that is built four square

Comments
StephenB @ 239, 241, Are the following statements in line with your reasoning? (1.) There is a moment in heavenly time, where God makes the decision whether or not to create William J Murray. (2.) At this moment of decision, God knows that, once created, WJM will freely decide to end up in hell. (3.) At this moment God can decide to create WJM, which results in WJM ending up in hell. (4.) At this moment God can decide not to create WJM, which results in WJM not ending up in hell (or anywhere else).Origenes
January 2, 2022
January
01
Jan
2
02
2022
04:40 AM
4
04
40
AM
PDT
Yarrgonaut no consensus by the church fathers on a doctrine of Hell,
:) Which Church Fathers are against the doctrine of Hell?Lieutenant Commander Data
January 1, 2022
January
01
Jan
1
01
2022
09:21 PM
9
09
21
PM
PDT
Origenes:
I was expecting Stephen to argue against this claim (WJM's behavior was "set in stone)", but he didn’t.
Yes, I did. You just missed it. God's knowledge of what will happen has absolutely nothing to do with WJM's moral choices. God's knowledge has no causal effect on WJMs fate. Those things are determined by WJM's own volitional powers.StephenB
January 1, 2022
January
01
Jan
1
01
2022
08:39 PM
8
08
39
PM
PDT
Querius
Yes, but that happened in previous threads, which apparently no longer count.
WJM keeps repeating the same errors and is impervious to correction.StephenB
January 1, 2022
January
01
Jan
1
01
2022
08:29 PM
8
08
29
PM
PDT
Origenes:
So, you are saying that the architect, who uses building materials. is in control, and God, who has to deal with free persons, is not in control
No. I said what I said, not what you say I said..StephenB
January 1, 2022
January
01
Jan
1
01
2022
08:05 PM
8
08
05
PM
PDT
Nothing new under the sun. We want to be God and to be in charge and do life on our terms. Jesus tells us we must repent, deny ourselves, and follow Him.zweston
January 1, 2022
January
01
Jan
1
01
2022
07:45 PM
7
07
45
PM
PDT
StephenB @ 235
... your analogy doesn’t work. Building materials do not have free will. (...) You, on the other had, do have free will. Unlike building materials that are powerless to accept or reject your construction design,, you can accept or reject God’s designs for your life, (...). The building materials cannot say no to you, but you can say no to God.
So, you are saying that the architect, who uses building materials. is in control, and God, who has to deal with free persons, is not in control.Origenes
January 1, 2022
January
01
Jan
1
01
2022
06:57 PM
6
06
57
PM
PDT
StephenB,
Everything else that you write has already been refuted.
Yes, but that happened in previous threads, which apparently no longer count. -QQuerius
January 1, 2022
January
01
Jan
1
01
2022
06:13 PM
6
06
13
PM
PDT
WJM:
If I can see into the future, and I know that if I build a bridge a certain way it will collapse on a specific date and time killing 500 people, am I not responsible for those deaths?
Of course. But your analogy doesn't work. Building materials do not have free will. They lack to volitional power to accept or reject your construction plans, so they bear no responsibility for the final outcome. It's all on you. You, on the other had, do have free will. Unlike building materials that are powerless to accept or reject your construction design,, you can accept or reject God's designs for your life, which means that you are responsible for the moral choices that you make. The building materials cannot say no to you, but you can say no to God. Everything else that you write has already been refuted.StephenB
January 1, 2022
January
01
Jan
1
01
2022
03:25 PM
3
03
25
PM
PDT
William J Murray@232 "Free will under Christianity is a worthless commodity other than to conveniently blame God’s victims." I think your logic is impeccable, except that this applies only to certain sects of Christianity that have thoroughly lost their way.doubter
January 1, 2022
January
01
Jan
1
01
2022
02:49 PM
2
02
49
PM
PDT
WJM, StephenB @ 229, 232
WJM: what I was going to do was set in stone the moment God created me …
I was expecting Stephen to argue against this claim, but he didn’t. On the contrary, by stating “God knew that you were going to write countless posts attacking Christianity”, he confirms your claim. WJM:
I am already in hell from God’s perspective
Stephen responds by saying that this statement is ‘obviously’ false. I don’t understand his quibble. If a timeless God can see WJM writing posts attacking Christianity, he can also see WJM in hell.Origenes
January 1, 2022
January
01
Jan
1
01
2022
02:49 PM
2
02
49
PM
PDT
SB said:
That doesn’t mean that he was responsible for writing them.
If I can see into the future, and I know that if I build a bridge a certain way it will collapse on a specific date and time killing 500 people, am I not responsible for those deaths? If God looked into the future and saw that I was going to do X if he created me, then yes, God is responsible for me doing X. He is in fact the only one who could have stopped X from occurring. It doesn't matter what that I have free will under your particular Christian perspective; what I was going to do was set in stone the moment God created me, and so God is the only one who could have prevented it. Free will under Christianity is a worthless commodity other than to conveniently blame God's victims.William J Murray
January 1, 2022
January
01
Jan
1
01
2022
02:18 PM
2
02
18
PM
PDT
StephenB @229,
Perhaps you missed the many times that I addressed your claims.
Likewise. And many others as well, yet the same rants appear repeatedly. And after 200+ posts, you offer to ask them a series of simple questions that will help them. Their response? They evade answering the questions, emit clouds of confusion, definitions, impatience, and vituperation to avoid answering them, and then disappear only to reappear several days later repeating the same flawed arguments from the beginning in a new post. Rinse and repeat. The conclusion is that they don't WANT an answer. Their objections to God are their treasured possessions. -QQuerius
January 1, 2022
January
01
Jan
1
01
2022
02:14 PM
2
02
14
PM
PDT
Yarrgonaut @224, I'm aware that there are many different versions of Christianity, but the thing is we're talking with people here who are representing a certain Christian perspective. For instance, the Christian theologian Emanuel Swedenborg had beliefs (@350 years ago) that closely mirror my own, such as there being no such thing as torment you can't escape, and the idea that what we experience after death reflects the character of our heart or our deep psychology, regardless of your religious or spiritual beliefs.William J Murray
January 1, 2022
January
01
Jan
1
01
2022
02:08 PM
2
02
08
PM
PDT
WJM:
I’ve noticed that this is about the 3rd time I’ve made a certain comment in this forum, and no Christian has challenged it or said it is wrong.
Perhaps you missed the many times that I addressed your claims.
I am already in hell from God’s perspective
Obviously, your statement is false. You are not now in that place [or state of existence]. Being in time, you cannot also be in a state of existence where there is no time. [Law of Non-contradiction]. Your perception of God’s perspective is irrelevant to the reality of the situation..
I was in hell the moment he created me, from His perspective. He knew I’d end up in hell before he even created me.
There is much bad logic here. What God knows has absolutely no bearing on what you do. God knew that you were going to write countless posts attacking Christianity. That doesn’t mean that he was responsible for writing them. God knows who is going to win the college football championship next week. That doesn’t mean the game has been fixed. God knows if and when the stock market will crash, that doesn't mean that He caused it to happen.
The only possible way my being in hell at the end could have been avoided was for God to not create me, or to create a different universe, or to create a different me.
“Yes, your honor, I did rape that woman, stab her mother to death, and throw both bodies into the river - but it wasn’t my fault. It’s all on God. He knew I was going to do that when He made me. If God had not given me life, I would not have taken life. So you have no right to punish me. Remember, that God could have prevented all this by simply not creating me, or by creating a different universe or creating a different me.StephenB
January 1, 2022
January
01
Jan
1
01
2022
01:43 PM
1
01
43
PM
PDT
LCD@226, there was no consensus by the church fathers on a doctrine of Hell, and within the Orthodox tradition, there's no doctrine about it to which the faithful are bound. Christianity is much bigger than American Evangelicalism, and the latter has developed some pretty wonky ideas I might add.Yarrgonaut
January 1, 2022
January
01
Jan
1
01
2022
01:27 PM
1
01
27
PM
PDT
Some questions about Beelzebub..
Revelation 20:10 KJV 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. - - - Matthew 25:41 shows the Lake of Fire was prepared for both Satan and fallen angels: “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.’”
When at the Last Judgement the devil and his cohorts are sentenced to hell for eternity, who will be doing their eternal tormenting? And who will fill the then vacant role of eternal tormentor of billions sentenced human souls?Origenes
January 1, 2022
January
01
Jan
1
01
2022
10:39 AM
10
10
39
AM
PDT
Yarrgonaut Chuck @210, there are many Christians in the past, and the present who agree with you. It seems you and WJM are acting like there’s only one line of thought within Christianity.
:) Wow, I think that you are not a Christian for 2 reasons : 1.There is only one line of thought within Christianity (the others are heresies.) 2. You can't consider Chuck a person worthy of respect. (It's true s/he knows to write :) and to turn on the computer )Lieutenant Commander Data
January 1, 2022
January
01
Jan
1
01
2022
10:36 AM
10
10
36
AM
PDT
Thanks, Chuck. I just watched that video, and read all the lyrics. Very powerful. I think Dylan actually being got some training as a Jewish cantor when he was young.Viola Lee
January 1, 2022
January
01
Jan
1
01
2022
09:37 AM
9
09
37
AM
PDT
Chuck @210, there are many Christians in the past, and the present who agree with you. It seems you and WJM are acting like there's only one line of thought within Christianity.Yarrgonaut
January 1, 2022
January
01
Jan
1
01
2022
09:21 AM
9
09
21
AM
PDT
ChuckDarwin@210 I never thought it would happen, but you have actually made a coherent statement that I can heartily agree with. In contrast to the narrow fundamentalist Christian doctrine being closed-mindedly promulgated here by several posters I prefer to believe that souls were created where one of their fundamental elemental characteristics is true free will - in other words, paradoxically, an all-powerful Deity can and did create beings that can make choices even He cannot predict (and therefore must inherently control). Otherwise, no real free will on the part of humans. Another fundamental element of conscious beings is that no such being can be eternally lost in a hellish environment of suffering - there always is the possibility of rising above misery and suffering into higher levels of existence. Otherwise, this Deity is not really all-loving and all-just. Of course, ChuckDarwin apparently doesn't believe either in souls or a Deity but so much the loss to him.doubter
January 1, 2022
January
01
Jan
1
01
2022
09:06 AM
9
09
06
AM
PDT
VL @214 Great lyric from a great song. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZgBhyU4IvQ You may already know this--Dylan (aka Robert Zimmerman) was raised in a tight knit Jewish community in Minnesota, so his familiarity with the Talmud isn't surprising. His paternal grandparents fled the Ukraine in the early 1900's to avoid the pogroms.chuckdarwin
January 1, 2022
January
01
Jan
1
01
2022
08:56 AM
8
08
56
AM
PDT
Zweston said:
He has said that even if it were true, he couldn’t hold to it. That’s literally unreasonable.
There's nothing unreasonable about it. Reasoning begins with facts. The fact is, I can't love a being that forced me into a dire situation then offers to save me from that situation only if I genuinely love him and accept his "forgiveness" for being that which he created me as. So, even if Christianity is true, I can't do what I'm supposed to do to get myself out of hell. I might as well believe - now -whatever gives me the most joy and comfort, and that which allows me to live a life of love and kindness now and happiness now. After all, under Christianity, this is my only chance to be happy before I'm tossed into the pit of eternal torment. No sense in my worrying about that now. It's a perfectly reasonable choice. Under Christianity, I'm doomed to spend eternity in hell after I die; I can't make it worse by choosing beliefs that make me happy and joyful now.William J Murray
January 1, 2022
January
01
Jan
1
01
2022
08:14 AM
8
08
14
AM
PDT
VL @214: Thanks. I do, in fact, find that very interesting.William J Murray
January 1, 2022
January
01
Jan
1
01
2022
08:04 AM
8
08
04
AM
PDT
LCD said:
Nothing new under the sun same stupid ideas (“it’s somebody else fault” ) repeated over and over.
Under Christianity, God is the one blaming other people for that which he created. In my life and under my view, I don't "blame" anyone for anything I experience, because God is not my creator. God didn't create anything. It has all always existed, and I'm actually 100% free to experience anything I set my mind on, as long as it is a logical possibility.William J Murray
January 1, 2022
January
01
Jan
1
01
2022
08:02 AM
8
08
02
AM
PDT
Those of the Christian faith, As it has been noted by himself, WJM is emotionally completely "boxed off" from holding to Christianity. He has said that even if it were true, he couldn't hold to it. That's literally unreasonable. It will do us no good to dialogue with him, but would be good to pray for him. And, since the Bible is spiritually discerned, and he obviously doesn't have the Holy Spirit, Biblically speaking... it shouldn't make much sense to him. God is not a person. We are not like him. Our knowledge is so far inferior like that of an ant to a human, but far wider of a gap. That being the case, I'm confident we can trust in God's character revealed to us in Christ. There is plenty I don't fully understand or even close to understand, but that doesn't mean Christ didn't raise from the dead, fulfilling 100's? of prophecies and bestowing supernatural power to his church to reconcile the world to himself and the father.zweston
January 1, 2022
January
01
Jan
1
01
2022
08:02 AM
8
08
02
AM
PDT
LCD said:
So if life appeared by chance how do you know what pathology is?
For my part, I never said life appeared by chance. You seem to think the only theoretical options available are (1) Christian God, or (2) atheism/materialism. There are an infinite number of options besides those two, many of which embrace intelligent design and don't include "eternal torment."William J Murray
January 1, 2022
January
01
Jan
1
01
2022
07:56 AM
7
07
56
AM
PDT
Joe Schooner @211
O: Suppose the devil does not exist, would God be compelled to create him in order to make eternal torment possible? Who else can do the job?
You might be missing the point. If the devil exists, God DID create him.
My point is that God needs the devil as his hangman. It would be immoral for God to order punishment which effectuation would traumatize the executioner. And only the devil is not traumatized by the act of torturing people eternally ...Origenes
January 1, 2022
January
01
Jan
1
01
2022
07:45 AM
7
07
45
AM
PDT
Chuckdarwin William J Murray @208 You have described what I have noted, in a few of my comments, is part of the deep pathology that is Christianity.
So if life appeared by chance how do you know what pathology is? You seem to admit that humans are created by an Intelligence with a certain function and purpose and the deviation from them means pathology. :)
The idea that an all-loving God would create a world where the vast majority of his creatures are doomed ab initio to eternal damnation is not just gratuitously punitive and cruel, it is completely irrational.
If reason appeared by chance there is no such a thing like irrational unless you admit reason was created with a purpose. :) Maybe you should try again?
I agree, a timeless infinite all-knowing God would be able to apprehend the consequences of any creation plan in all its details;
:)) You are not original. Adam did it first and he was much smarter than you. This idea is stolen from Bible because after sin Adam said exactly what you say. Nothing new under the sun same stupid ideas ("it's somebody else fault" ) repeated over and over.Lieutenant Commander Data
January 1, 2022
January
01
Jan
1
01
2022
07:29 AM
7
07
29
AM
PDT
Comment for WJM: I thought you might be interested in this. I'm working my way through my Dylan collection, and just read the Wikipedia article about the dark, beautiful song "Not Dark Yet." Under cultural references I read this:
The line "I was born here and I'll die here against my will" is a paraphrase of a Talmudic passage from the Pirkei Avot (Ethics of the Fathers), Chapter 4, verse 22: "Let not your heart convince you that the grave is your escape; for against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give a judgement and accounting before the king, king of all kings, the Holy One, blessed be He".[14]
Viola Lee
January 1, 2022
January
01
Jan
1
01
2022
07:22 AM
7
07
22
AM
PDT
1 2 3 4 5 6 12

Leave a Reply