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50 Christmases Later

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December 19, 1971 was a Sunday, the last one before Christmas.  I was ten.  My sister was eleven.  We went with our family to the evening service at Trinity Baptist Church in Boyd, Texas.  After services my parents left us with a group that was going Christmas caroling.  We never made it to the first house.

Our church was on the highway on the western edge of town.   Our group of about 20 carolers walked along the side the highway toward the first neighborhood a few hundred yards away.  The leaders were in the front and back of the group.  My sister and I were with the kids in the middle.  My memories of what happened next are episodic.  I don’t know if this is because I was in and out of consciousness or if my mind will not let me remember.  This is what I do remember.

It is a dark night.  We are walking along the side of the road.  My friends are around me.  Two headlights.  Screeching tires.  Screams.  Darkness.

Laying in a ditch.  Where is Robin?  Grabbing hands full of weeds as I crawl in the ditch.  Why can’t I stand?  Darkness.

Laying on the side of the road.  Someone has laid a coat over me.  A crowd has gathered around a car.  Yelling.  A man is beating someone with his fists.  Darkness.

The flashing lights of ambulances.  My mother is here.  She is hysterical.  She is screaming and fighting with a man who will not let her into an ambulance.  Darkness.

In an ambulance going down the road.  My father is beside me.  He weeps silently.  Darkness.

Bright lights of a hospital.  A doctor is wrapping plaster around my leg.  I see one of my friends on the other side of the room.  Sleep.

Later I learned that a drunken 19 year-old man had swerved toward the group as a joke to frighten us.  He lost control and drove into the middle of the group among the kids.  Eight were injured, including me and my sister, and one nine year-old girl was killed when the car pinned her against a highway post.  This girl was wearing the same style coat as my sister, and my mother had fought to get into the ambulance with her, thinking it was her daughter.  My sister was in a different ambulance, and my father was weeping because the entire trip with me to the hospital in Fort Worth he thought Robin was dead. 

Robin was not dead, but she was badly injured.  She was hit so hard that her body became a projectile that struck another kid and broke his leg.  She sustained a broken nose, a broken leg, a broken arm and injuries to her spinal cord.  She had operations and lived a fairly normal life, though she always struggled with fine motor skills.  Over 40 years later, in 2014, complications from her injuries caused her to become a quadriplegic.  She lived six more years and died in 2020.  By comparison, my injuries were slight, a broken leg from which I fully recovered. 

What to make of all of this?  Terrible, senseless things happen to children as Ivan Karamazov recounted in his famous indictment of God.  How can a loving God allow this?  I have contemplated the theodicy for decades, and in that time I have learned only one thing for certain.  Ivan’s indictment cannot be refuted by logic.  If it can be countered at all, it can be countered only as Alyosha countered it, by faith in God’s love as demonstrated though Christ’s sacrifice on the cross.  Robin trusted.  She forgave.  She did not allow bitterness to consume her soul.  This is our second Christmas without her, but I will see her again.  With joy in my heart, I sing the old song:

I’ll meet you in the morning
With a how do you do
And we’ll sit down by the river
And with rapture old acquaintance renew
You’ll know me in the morning
By the smile that I wear
When I meet you in the morning
In that city that is built four square

Comments
WJM states to SB: "That’s your concept of “true love” in light of your concept of “spiritual welfare.” I have a different concept of true love and “spiritual” matters." Might I be so bold as to suggest that WJM, and even all the rest of us in this temporal realm, might just have a very distorted concept of 'true love' and of 'spiritual matters' when it comes to the 'true love' and 'spiritual matters' of God almighty?
"I feel as if there are no words in our limited vocabulary to describe what I experienced.,,, The only human emotion I could feel was pure, unrelenting, unconditional love. Take the unconditional love a mother has for a child and amplify it a thousand fold, then multiply exponentially. The result of your equation would be as a grain of sand is to all the beaches in the world. So, too, is the comparison between the love we experience on earth to what I felt during my experience. This love is so strong, that words like "love" make the description seem obscene. It was the most powerful and compelling feeling. But, it was so much more. I felt the presence of angels. I felt the presence of joyous souls, and they described to me a hundred lifetimes worth of knowledge about our divinity. Simultaneous to the deliverance of this knowledge, I knew I was in the presence of God. I never wanted to leave, never." Judeo-Christian Near Death Experience Testimony http://iands.org/experiences/nde-accounts/736-never-wanted-to-leave-the-presence.html
In regards to WJM's suggestion that we will not be able to enjoy heaven because of "knowing that many people are suffering for eternity," Well, the Bible states that God Himself, (in His infinite 'true love'), "shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." Verse:
Revelation 21:4-5 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
bornagain77
December 28, 2021
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you will be enjoying your eternal heaven even while knowing that many people are suffering for eternity,
Nope. Somebody in heaven will remember earth's life as much as a fetus about his/her intrauterine life after being born. :) It's another life focused on God , the soul growing and developing limitless from a direct interaction with God.Lieutenant Commander Data
December 28, 2021
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SB said:
All I can say is that you appear not to realize how you are coming across. Everything you say about the Christian God screams “unfair, unjust, cruel, unreasonable.”
I can't help how you react to me expressing my feelings about the concept of eternal suffering. I don't know if eternal suffering is any of those things; I don't care if it's any of those things. SB said:
... your notion of love as a warm fuzzy feeling is not very realistic.
Are you mind-reading again? Where did I say anything like that?
True love, as indicated earlier, attends to the spiritual welfare of the beloved..
That's your concept of "true love" in light of your concept of "spiritual welfare." I have a different concept of true love and "spiritual" matters. I take these answers you have offered to mean that you will be enjoying your eternal heaven even while knowing that many people are suffering for eternity, even if someone you love ends up in that situation for whatever reason. Because, in your mind, the result is just and you love your Christian God above all else, above all other relationships. Fair enough.William J Murray
December 27, 2021
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I noticed JS cross threaded an objection regarding knowable, objective truths on right conduct etc. I responded in the thread that has that focus https://uncommondescent.com/culture/lfp-48-former-new-atheist-stefan-molyneaux-and-his-universally-preferable-behavior-2007-illustrate-inescapably-binding-intelligible-and-identifiable-first-duties-of-reason/#comment-743483 KFkairosfocus
December 27, 2021
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Origenes:
And by this someone doing something that would “not otherwise be possible”, it may be accomplished that God spares this someone’s soul? So, in effect, trying to get God to spare someone’s soul is the intent behind praying for someone’s soul?
The purpose of the prayer is to change the circumstances so that the soul doesn't need to be spared. Ultimately, the final outcome is determined by the soul, not God. As it says in Scripture, God "wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2-4).StephenB
December 27, 2021
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Hate for God is a re(su)pressed hate against your father.
Where do you get this nonsense? There is no hatred towards God.Joe Schooner
December 27, 2021
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SB: The point is that I have a rational standard for believing what I believe. You do not.
If believing this makes your life easier, by all means continue to believe this.
If I am wrong in saying that you have no moral standard of right and wrong (other than your own personal preferences), please feel free to reveal that standard.StephenB
December 27, 2021
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Hate for God is a re(su)pressed hate against your father.Lieutenant Commander Data
December 27, 2021
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SB @
SB: If you really care about your wife, then pray for her soul ...
O: What exactly is the intent behind praying for someone's soul? Is it asking God to spare someone's soul? IOWs is it an attempt to influence God's judgment of someone?
SB: Its about asking God to give someone a special power or wisdom (grace) to do something that would not otherwise be possible..
And by this someone doing something that would “not otherwise be possible”, it may be accomplished that God spares this someone’s soul? So, in effect, trying to get God to spare someone’s soul is the intent behind praying for someone’s soul?Origenes
December 27, 2021
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LCD, I have nothing to forgive him for.Joe Schooner
December 27, 2021
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Armand Jack Schooner. Passed away in 1982.
...to discover God first thing is to forgive your father no matter what he did to you(beatings or other things that can't be said publicly).Lieutenant Commander Data
December 27, 2021
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The point is that I have a rational standard for believing what I believe. You do not.
If believing this makes your life easier, by all means continue to believe this.Joe Schooner
December 27, 2021
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Origenes:
What exactly is the intent behind praying for someone’s soul? Is it asking God to spare someone’s soul? IOWs is it an attempt to influence God’s judgement of someone?
Its about asking God to give someone a special power or wisdom (grace) to do something that would not otherwise be possible..StephenB
December 27, 2021
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Joe Schooner:
You are free to believe this. But that doesn’t mean that anyone has to share your belief.
The point is that I have a rational standard for believing what I believe. You do not.StephenB
December 27, 2021
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SB @
If you really care about your wife, then pray for her soul ...
What exactly is the intent behind praying for someone's soul? Is it asking God to spare someone's soul? IOWs is it an attempt to influence God's judgement of someone?Origenes
December 27, 2021
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WJM:
I kinda feel like you might be being coy with your words here, so let me ask you this: are you saying that because my wife and I love each other, our family, friends and pets, we’re (hypothetically speaking, in your perspective) assured of entering the Christian heaven?
No. I don’t think that salvation can be won by loving your family more than God/ Based on what I read, you appear to not even like God, except insofar as you can remake Him into someone who will support your world view. What I mean to say is that God does not consign someone to hell on a tricky technicality. The kind of love I refer to would express itself as gratitude to God for the gift of a loving family and a strong desire to work for their spiritual welfare. SB: Why do you insinuate that the Christian God is unjust if, in your view, Justice doesn’t (or may not) exist.
I’m making no such insinuation. Whether or not it is just is not an issue for me.
All I can say is that you appear not to realize how you are coming across. Everything you say about the Christian God screams “unfair, unjust, cruel, unreasonable.”
Do you think I’m going to stop loving my wife or my children because I find out some aspects of them I didn’t know before? [If they are in hell and I am in heaven].
No. But you would accept the fact that heaven, and the constant company of the God they rejected, would be an even greater hell for them. I should add, though, that your notion of love as a warm fuzzy feeling is not very realistic. True love, as indicated earlier, attends to the spiritual welfare of the beloved. If you really care about your wife, then pray for her soul because God can take the prayers you say today and apply them backwards in time (retroactive prayer) so that someone who is (was) at the point of death received the grace of final repentance, even though the prayer that produced that happy result would be said years later, So you still have something to say about the matter. Why not do this most loving thing? Have a little faith. Let God be God.StephenB
December 27, 2021
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You say fairness and rightness and justice, as everyone understands those words, do not exist.
They exist as definitions. But people differ in what they consider to be fair, right and just.
Yet you also say that the Christian God is wrong, unfair, and unjust. You are contradicting yourself all over the place.
No. Like everyone else, I have my own views about what is just. I feel that it is not just for anyone to demand to be worshipped on threat of punishment. Why should I feel differently about any God that demands worshipping on threat of punishment.
Of course not. No human deserves to be worshipped. I can say that because I accept the existence of an objective moral code as found in the Natural Moral Law and the Ten Commandments, which indicate that we should not make idols out of humans or graven images. Therefore, it is unjust for any human to demand worship.
You are free to believe this. But that doesn’t mean that anyone has to share your belief.Joe Schooner
December 27, 2021
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SB: I don’t think you understand your own dilemma. “Aren’t you among those on this site who claim that there is no such thing as a natural moral law or any objective standard of justice? Joe Schooner
There are no objective moral truths in the way that KF defines them. If that is true, then there can be no such thing as an unjust God.
Humans have defined what the word “just” means. By that definition, any being who demand to be worshipped at the risk of punishment is unjust.
Humans define justice the same way kairosfocus defines it - objectively right and objectively fair. "Right means objectively right; fair means objectively fair.. It does not mean right *for me* or fair *for you*. It means fair and right for everyone. You say fairness and rightness and justice, as everyone understands those words, do not exist. Yet you also say that the Christian God is wrong, unfair, and unjust. You are contradicting yourself all over the place.
Here’s a question for you. Do you believe that Kim Jung Un’s tendency to punish those who do not worship him is just?
Of course not. No human deserves to be worshipped. I can say that because I accept the existence of an objective moral code as found in the Natural Moral Law and the Ten Commandments, which indicate that we should not make idols out of humans or graven images. Therefore, it is unjust for any human to demand worship. I have a standard for judging unjust behavior, which says that it is wrong for humans to worship other humans. You don't have any such a standard, so you have no grounds for saying that anything is unfair, or unjust, or wrong. This is basic logic.
StephenB
December 27, 2021
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SB, perhaps, a root issue is gratitude, or the lack thereof. Do we have gratitude to parents, especially fathers?
I certainly hope that nobody’s parents demand to be worshipped by their children at the threat of eternal punishment. That is child abuse.
God is Father of us all. It seems evident that JS imagines that worship to God is pandering to an imagined warped divine ego…
Nope.
…rather than reasonable expression of gratitude for the gift of life and of a world in which despite parasitical evils, much good is possible and exists.
Showing gratitude is fine. Who would object to that. Demanding gratitude (and much more) at the threat of punishment is blackmail.
Starting with the use of freedom to love, do the good and wise etc.
It is nice to see that you support a person’s freedom to love who they choose.
The suggestion is, cognitive dissonance resolved by adverse projection to God and imagined hauling God into the dock on an indictment how dare you impose principles of conscience and morality etc. Meanwhile, the foolish behaviour in defiance of manifest end is ruinous. KF
So, do you believe that a person who obeys all of God’s commands and leads a life of generosity and love towards all others should be punished for simply refusing to bend the knee and worship God? As a father (assuming that you are) is it just for you to punish your adult son for refusing to worship you?Joe Schooner
December 27, 2021
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I don’t think you understand your own dilemma. “Aren’t you among those on this site who claim that there is no such thing as a natural moral law or any objective standard of justice?
There are no objective moral truths in the way that KF defines them.
How, then, can you say that a God who insists on being worshipped is ‘unjust” when you also believe that there is no such thing as being just?
Humans have defined what the word “just” means. By that definition, any being who demand to be worshipped at the risk of punishment is unjust.
If there is no such thing as being just, then there can be no such thing as being unjust.
By the standards that human society has agreed on. Here’s a question for you. Do you believe that Kim Jung Un’s tendency to punish those who do not worship him is just?Joe Schooner
December 27, 2021
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Hahahaha! Don’t worship God who created us ,who is the source of goodness and morality ,worship me Joe Schonner an shameless anonimous on internet full of hate . Yep. You convinced me.
You are free to worship who or whatever you like. But the fact remains that an all-knowing, all-loving God wouldn’t insist on being worshipped at the risk of punishment. That behavior is indistinguishable from a petty, insecure dictator.
PS: Tell us more .What about satan it’s ok to be worshipped?
If it makes you happy to worship Satan, you are free to do so.
You didn’t mention about satan because God disturbs you ,right?
No.
Trully tell us :Who’s your daddy?
Armand Jack Schooner. Passed away in 1982.Joe Schooner
December 27, 2021
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SB said:
From a Christian perspective, the only reason people end up in hell is because they stubbornly refuse to love. The people you describe (or allude to) seem not to be that way.
I kinda feel like you might be being coy with your words here, so let me ask you this: are you saying that because my wife and I love each other, our family, friends and pets, we're (hypothetically speaking, in your perspective) assured of entering the Christian heaven?
Why do you insinuate that the Christian God is unjust if, in your view, Justice doesn’t (or may not) exist.
I'm making no such insinuation. Whether or not it is just is not an issue for me.
In the next life, you may learn surprising things about the people you thought you knew. For those in hell, you will likely discover that they were not the persons you thought they were and realize that they disqualified themselves from living in a community of loving people.
What difference is that going to make to me? Do you think I'm going to stop loving my wife or my children because I find out some aspects of them I didn't know before? BA77 and SB say that people willfully, knowingly choose to "reject God" and in so doing know they are casting themselves into eternal torment. First, I doubt there are more than a handful of people (if any) who actually believe they are "rejecting God." That is a profound mischaracterization of what is going on. What people reject are concepts of God they find, for whatever reason, unbelievable. Rejecting the Christian version of God is, for them, like rejecting the Greek Gods or the Hindu Gods. Now, before BA77, SB and KF launch into their arguments and evidence that the Christian God is the real God, all of that is entirely irrelevant to the point: the people in question do not think they are rejecting the actual God; all they are doing is rejecting concepts of God they find unbelievable for various reasons. Those reasons may be entirely irrational; again, that does not matter to the above point. But, for the sake of argument, let's just assume that everyone who rejects God knows they are rejecting the actual God and know that this decision will result in eternal suffering. When you put it that way it's an obviously ridiculous claim to make, but let's just agree arguendo. My question was: how are we supposed to enjoy eternal paradise knowing that so many people are suffering for eternity, especially if some of those we love did not make it to heaven? Does SB think that finding out "bad" things about them I did not know will somehow make me feel better or uncaring about their eternal torment? Does SB think that has not already happened to me - finding out "bad" things about those I love? Did any of that change my love for them? No. Not one bit. Does BA77 think that the supposed "fact" that they knowingly chose their fate will offer me any relief from the knowledge that they are suffering eternal torment? OMG, BA77, have you ever loved anyone? That doesn't help me one bit. KF seems to think that some kind of theological understanding not available in depth here will help. If this theological information and argument would make me be able to put those suffering for eternity (for any reason, irrational beliefs, deliberate choice, doing bad things I don't know about) out of mind and not care about them, then I don't want to read those arguments. I do not wish to be separated from my love for them. I do not wish to even be able to enjoy Heaven without them. The idea of me enjoying heaven while they suffer for eternity because I was able to cast them out of my mind and heart is an unbearable thought to me. I couldn't live with myself. I find he idea of accepting the idea of eternal, hopeless suffering for anyone, whether I even know them or not, damaging to my heart. It makes me feel sorrow just to imagine it. You may argue that it is necessary; that does not matter. It being necessary does not, cannot change the way I feel. You guys argue as if I should find solace in the "fact" of it being logically necessary, logically inescapable that some people will suffer without hope for eternity. There is no solace for me in that even if I accept it as true. It doesn't change anything. It doesn't make me feel better about the situation. It doesn't make me stop loving those I love. It's not going to change my despair for their fate. Do you think that if Mr. Arrington gets to heaven and finds out his sister is not there because of "bad" things about her he didn't know, and because it was existentially, logically necessary for her to suffer eternal torment in hell, that's going to make any difference in the heartbreak Mr. Arrington would feel? I don't, but perhaps Mr. Arrington can answer for himself. The fact that you guys think your answers to that question are relevant at all shocks me. Do you guys think that even if it I saw "bad" things I did not know about people I love, or came to understand and know that it is logically and existentially necessary, that would change how I feel? Do you think that would somehow alleviate my suffering? The idea of eternal, hopeless torment for anyone breaks my heart. I honestly don't know how anyone who has ever actually felt love or compassion can accept that.William J Murray
December 27, 2021
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SB, perhaps, a root issue is gratitude, or the lack thereof. Do we have gratitude to parents, especially fathers? God is Father of us all. It seems evident that JS imagines that worship to God is pandering to an imagined warped divine ego rather than reasonable expression of gratitude for the gift of life and of a world in which despite parasitical evils, much good is possible and exists. Starting with the use of freedom to love, do the good and wise etc. The suggestion is, cognitive dissonance resolved by adverse projection to God and imagined hauling God into the dock on an indictment how dare you impose principles of conscience and morality etc. Meanwhile, the foolish behaviour in defiance of manifest end is ruinous. KFkairosfocus
December 27, 2021
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SB: What standard of justice are you appealing to when you make those calculations? Joe Schooner
Very simple. Any God who penalizes you for not worshipping him, regardless of your behavior, is not a just God.
I don't think you understand your own dilemma. "Aren't you among those on this site who claim that there is no such thing as a natural moral law or any objective standard of justice? How, then, can you say that a God who insists on being worshipped is 'unjust" when you also believe that there is no such thing as being just? If there is no such thing as being just, then there can be no such thing as being unjust.StephenB
December 26, 2021
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Any God who penalizes you for not worshipping him
:) Hahahaha! Don't worship God who created us ,who is the source of goodness and morality ,worship me Joe Schonner an shameless anonimous on internet full of hate . Yep. You convinced me. PS: Tell us more .What about satan it's ok to be worshipped? You didn't mention about satan because God disturbs you ,right? Trully tell us :Who's your daddy?Lieutenant Commander Data
December 26, 2021
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What standard of justice are you appealing to when you make those calculations?
Very simple. Any God who penalizes you for not worshipping him, regardless of your behavior, is not a just God.Joe Schooner
December 26, 2021
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Folks, though SB is anything but an ignoramus or an amateurish dilettante, I must highlight that UD is not a theology issues blog for many good reasons; and distractive polarising debate with those only interested to object not seek a reasonable balance is part of it. Those who are genuinely perplexed are again referred to sites where experts are able to engage at length, refer to thousands of years of resources, may have debates at high level, and can and do answer questions and difficulties at length. While I am at it, I note that every worldview will have difficulties and a key method is therefore comparative difficulties, e.g. note on wider issues tied to transmigration of souls and why the hope is to break out of that cycle as mentioned above. KF PS: Ironically, the Biblical Creationists do engage such subjects, try here https://creation.com/hell and follow ups https://creation.com/hell-unfair and https://creation.com/hell-questions-answered But I more have in mind people like Craig https://www.reasonablefaith.org/question-answer/P40/tag/hell note vid https://www.reasonablefaith.org/media/other-videos/william-lane-craig-qa-what-is-hell-is-hell-compatible-with-a-loving-god or https://caroline-smith.com/2019/05/07/why-hell-will-be-hellish/ and others. Try here too https://christianthinktank.com/gr5part2.html etckairosfocus
December 26, 2021
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Origenes:
So, only a couple of stubborn fools will be send to hell, and the vast majority of people will enter the wide gate leading to heaven?
My guess is that the number of stubborn fools who refuse to love is quite high. Meanwhile, please read the question that I was addressing. Context matters.StephenB
December 26, 2021
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Joe Schooner
[A] God that punishes someone for not worshipping him is not a just God. A God who rewards good behavior regardless of whether he is worshipped is a just God.
What standard of justice are you appealing to when you make those calculations? It is the objective standard that you disavow, or is a private standard that you just came up with.? If it is the former, then why not confess that such a standard exists? If it is the latter, then explain why I or anyone else should take is seriously.StephenB
December 26, 2021
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StephenB @61
From a Christian perspective, the only reason people end up in hell is because they stubbornly refuse to love. The people you describe (or allude to) seem not to be that way.
So, only a couple of stubborn fools will be send to hell, and the vast majority of people will enter the wide gate leading to heaven?
Matthew 7:13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.” Matthew 7:14 “But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it.” Luke 13:24 "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able.”
Origenes
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