Materialist Derangement Syndrome on Display

_{Barry Arrington

November 18, 2013

Intelligent Design}

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I have already coined the term “Darwinist Derangement Syndrome.” See here. Closely related to DDS is MDS (“Materialist Derangement Syndrome”), which pathology Mark Frank aptly demonstrates in this exchange:

Barry: Here is a self-evident moral truth: “It is evil to torture an infant for personal pleasure.”

Mark Frank:

Usually you define self-evident as leading to absurdity. What kind of absurdity results from holding it is not evil to torture an infant for personal pleasure?

(We must have held this debate over 100 times on UD by now – but I never saw an answer to this).

Mark keeps asking over and over for someone to demonstrate to him why a self-evident truth is true, when he has been told over and over again that self-evident truths cannot be demonstrated – self-evident principles are not conclusions that one reasons to; they are premises upon which all reasoning is based.

Mark, maybe you will finally get it if you ponder these questions. What kind of absurdity would result from denying that:

2+2=4

That a proposition cannot be both true and false at the same time and in the same sense

That the sum of the angles of a triangle is 180 degrees

That you are conscious

That a finite whole is greater than or equal to any of its parts

BTW, you also suggest that William Lane Craig would deny that it is evil to torture an infant for personal pleasure. This statement is outrageously false. Do you have no shame sir?

Alan Fox comes in a close second with this gem of MDS:

Comment 57 posted at 3:14: “Moral absolutes, there ain’t!”

Comment 58 posted at 3:20: “all [people] deserved the universal right to life.”

Psychologists talk about the concept of “cognitive dissonance,” the discomfort experienced when simultaneously holding two or more conflicting beliefs. People cope with cognitive dissonance by engaging in dissonance reduction. Alan appears to be able to deny a concept and then affirm it six minutes later. His dissonance reduction coping strategies must be a marvel to behold. Alternatively, Alan may well be a closet ID proponent shilling as a materialist. That would make sense.

Comments

Shepherd case
Hmm. Gay young man horrifically and casually murdered. Sure makes the case against the gay community. What is the matter with you people?Alan Fox_{November 24, 2013
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AF: In short, you -- again -- confess to coming here only to push agendas and talking points, not to responsibly respond and actually seriously discuss. You were corrected by JS01 for snipping and sniping, and you further responded in an irresponsible way. Sadly revealing. KFkairosfocus_{November 24, 2013
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PPS: Of course inter alia the Greco-Roman pagan culture promoted homosexuality [especially men with youths], that is part of the rebuke and warning on context and consequences for society here; written while the consequences were in progress, as already linked.kairosfocus_{November 24, 2013
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(Alan Fox, KF is responding to my link @ 127)
How can you tell? By reading KFs posts? That's something I try to avoid! :)Alan Fox_{November 24, 2013
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AF: It is obvious you did not read the comment that pointe4d to emergence of wolf packs of young thugs as a part of the social breakdown, resulting from broken families. JS01 mentioned an actual case in point, what seems to be a new phenomenon of youngsters randomly assaulting people and videotaping the attacks to be posted on the Internet. That was what I responded to. Your dismissal is ill-informed and improper. But then, you are studiously ignoring the pivotal issue of the repeatedly cited statements on the amorality of evolutionary materialism by Dr Dawkins in the Aug 1995 Sci Am. KF PS: And BTW the much headlined Shepherd case that probably deeply informs the sentiments and perceptions you expressed, was not as was promoted in the media. Recent sobering second thoughts have come out.kairosfocus_{November 24, 2013
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It is the family (and the celebration of the family) that provides the foundation for a well-ordered society.
Man is by nature a social animal. Who could argue with Aristotle. (Well, I could on many issues, but not this). But didn't the Greeks have a very relaxed attitude to homosexuality. It was indulged as an abberation of youth. A sowing of wild oats (and no unfortunate consequences) before settling down to manhood, marriage and family?Alan Fox_{November 24, 2013
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KF:
JS01: You’ve got to be kidding — bands of young thugs stalking the streets and assaulting random people as apparently a GAME? As in, wolf-packs of young men improperly brought up and preying on what they think are vulnerable targets?
Yeah, and posting videos of the attacks on "social media." A Clockwork Orange?
Alex: It's funny how the colors of the real world only seem really real when you viddy them on the screen.
"Bueller?" "Anyone?" "Bueller?" (Alan Fox, KF is responding to my link @ 127)jstanley01_{November 24, 2013
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PS: Let us again remember what we are confronting, and why it is prone to accuse those who challenge amoral might and manipulation make 'right' radical relativism and subjectivism of indulging in irrational fears . . . the definition of "phobias." As in Dr Richard Dawkins, Sci Am, August 1995:
Nature is not cruel, only pitilessly indifferent. This lesson is one of the hardest for humans to learn. We cannot accept that things might be neither good nor evil, neither cruel nor kind, but simply callous: indifferent to all suffering, lacking all purpose [--> It escapes Dr Dawkins that we may have good reason for refusing this implication of his favoured ideological evolutionary materialism] . . . . In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won’t find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but pitiless indifference [--> As in open admission of utter amorality that opens the door to nihilism] . . . . DNA neither cares nor knows. DNA just is. And we dance to its music. [“God’s Utility Function,” Sci. Am. Aug 1995, pp. 80 - 85.]
Let us remind ourselves of what evil is best understood as: the twisting, frustration, privation or diversion of that which in proper place and to proper end -- built-in purpose, is good. Classic Case: twisting the power of communication, reasoning and persuasion as follows:
Isa 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter! 21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, and shrewd in their own sight!
KFkairosfocus_{November 24, 2013
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Poor Alan. He doesn’t understand what that comment means in the context of a discussion about sexual perversion.
We have to disagree on whether any activity that involves and harms nobody but the participants is perversion. I'd still like to learn more how homosexuality resulted in the end of the Roman Empire. Not everyone would regard the demise of the Roman Empire as a bad thing. I guess it was for those with an interest at that time in its survival.Alan Fox_{November 24, 2013
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You’ve got to be kidding — bands of young thugs stalking the streets and assaulting random people as apparently a GAME? As in, wolf-packs of young men improperly brought up and preying on what they think are vulnerable targets? Looks a little bit relevant to me.
Off-topic and imaginary rambling. But young gay men are overwhelmingly the victims of assault by their homophobic peers.Alan Fox_{November 24, 2013
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Alan Fox
Oh good grief! StephenB has jumped the shark!
Poor Alan. He doesn't understand what that comment means in the context of a discussion about sexual perversion.StephenB_{November 24, 2013
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kairosfocus:
It seems AF will not acknowledge that human sexuality has a naturally evident Creation Order anchored purpose. One deeply connected to the formation and stability of families as the foundational institution of society — one that requires longstanding commitment [as in, easy and widespread divorce is another very worrying sign], sacrifice and unselfish service [as in porn and the culture of self indulgence it reflects and accelerates is a warning sign] to thrive and effectively nurture the next generation [as in, watch out] . . . especially young men who must in each generation be tamed from becoming wolf packs preying on society and its members from within or without, creating the chaos that demands tyranny as preferable to anarchy, triggering ruin on both horns of that dilemma. It seems, further, that he dismisses the insight that evil is best understood in light of perversion, frustration and privation of the good from purpose. So, with signs of chaos all around and the utter destabilisation of the foundational institution of social survival, he wishes to play at selective hyperskepticism in part driven by the influence of amoral ideologies that open the door to nihilism; and where beyond a certain point, the good and decent will be so defective that few will be willing to stand in the gap and lay reputation or life and limb on the line to defend it and uphold justice . . . leading to corrupt and cynical misrule, courts of injustice and abusive and destructive policing and military forces little better than organised gangs of predators and warlords running little more than protection rackets. Where of course, that which he would demand approval of is one of the cluster of signs and accelerants of the raging fire that is even now burning down our civilisation — a second time around. (He seems to have forgotten the fate of pagan civilisation and doubtless thinks this diagnosis and warning can be simply brushed aside as of no account, never mind Nero and co, the primary targets.) Poster boy, or maybe BA has a point, on someone overdoing a parody.
Another great point. And well stated! It is the family (and the celebration of the family) that provides the foundation for a well-ordered society.StephenB_{November 24, 2013
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bornagain77,
The following video shows that the SAT (Scholastic Aptitude Test) scores for students showed a steady decline, for seventeen years from the top spot or near the top spot in the world, after the removal of prayer from the public classroom by the Supreme Court, not by public decree, in 1963. Whereas the SAT scores for private Christian schools have consistently remained at the top, or near the top, spot in the world:
Excellent point. Thank you kairosfocus, Good comments on Christian education in the United States. What many do not realize is that the high educational standards (and the establishment of the cathedrals of higher education) were a direct result of obtaining literacy and academic competency directly from the study of Sacred Scripture.StephenB_{November 24, 2013
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Start with Rome. Homosexuality feminized the men to such an extent that they couldn’t fight off the barbarian tribes and didn’t even want to try.
Oh good grief! StephenB has jumped the shark!Alan Fox_{November 24, 2013
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goodusername
Yes, if there’s one thing the Roman Empire is known for, it’s for its short life. :-)
The issue is not how long Rome lasted. The issue is, what are the main elements that caused it to deteriorate in its latter stages? Empires don't self-destruct when they are strong.
But Rome had become increasingly Christian and homophobic in the centuries leading towards its fall, and long before the Fall of Rome homosexual acts were even punishable by death.
Christianity allowed Rome to survive much longer that it otherwise would have. Eventually, as is usually the case, worldly forces prevailed and the empire destroyed itself. To get a better feel for the conditions that led to the downfall of Rome, I recommend City of God, City of Man, by Augustine. He was there when Rome was sacked.
Has any society ever run out of people because of too many people becoming homosexuals?
Homosexuality is a cause, but not the first cause. It goes like this: Rejection of the natural moral law, followed by homosexuality and the deterioration of the family, followed by a decline in the reproductive replacement rate. At the moment, all Western societies are failing to replace themselves, while Islam with its oppressive ways is multiplying. The inevitable outcome of that trend should be obvious.StephenB_{November 24, 2013
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JS01: You've got to be kidding -- bands of young thugs stalking the streets and assaulting random people as apparently a GAME? As in, wolf-packs of young men improperly brought up and preying on what they think are vulnerable targets? Looks a little bit relevant to me. KFkairosfocus_{November 24, 2013
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F/N 4: just for fun since it is being debated onwards, I excerpt 116: ______________ >> It seems AF will not acknowledge that human sexuality has a naturally evident Creation Order anchored purpose. One deeply connected to the formation and stability of families as the foundational institution of society — one that requires longstanding commitment [as in, easy and widespread divorce is another very worrying sign], sacrifice and unselfish service [as in porn and the culture of self indulgence it reflects and accelerates is a warning sign] to thrive and effectively nurture the next generation [as in, watch out] . . . especially young men who must in each generation be tamed from becoming wolf packs preying on society and its members from within or without, creating the chaos that demands tyranny as preferable to anarchy, triggering ruin on both horns of that dilemma. It seems, further, that he dismisses the insight that evil is best understood in light of perversion, frustration and privation of the good from purpose. So, with signs of chaos all around and the utter destabilisation of the foundational institution of social survival, he wishes to play at selective hyperskepticism in part driven by the influence of amoral ideologies that open the door to nihilism; and where beyond a certain point, the good and decent will be so [disaffected] that few will be willing to stand in the gap and lay reputation or life and limb on the line to defend it and uphold justice . . . leading to corrupt and cynical misrule, courts of injustice and abusive and destructive policing and military forces little better than organised gangs of predators and warlords running little more than protection rackets. Where of course, that which he would demand approval of is one of the cluster of signs and accelerants of the raging fire that is even now burning down our civilisation — a second time around. (He seems to have forgotten the fate of pagan civilisation and doubtless thinks this diagnosis and warning can be simply brushed aside as of no account, never mind Nero and co, the primary targets.) Poster boy, or maybe BA has a point, on someone overdoing a parody. >> _______________ And BTW, by the time Rome became an Empire between the time of Julius Caesar and Octavian aka Augustus, that resort to permanent essentially unlimited dictatorship -- after decades of civil war and chaos -- was already the admission of societal failure. All of which were BC. [Cf here the OT debate over a king and the prophetic view that this was both a judgement of consequences and a resort to dictatorship to provide order and a centre of military strength after anarchy and chaos, with the particular note on oppressive taxes and forced labour.] The Christian faith grew to significance as a despised minority and counter-culture view in the midst of a gradually decaying civilisation under dictatorship. One that had suffered an ultimately decisive defeat and destruction of three legions at the hands of German barbarians in was it AD 9 -- roughly the time when Jesus impressed the Temple elites as a boy of twelve -- that prevented it from shortening frontier lines by advancing to better river lines. And recall, it nearly collapsed in the 200's, already. Even as late as the 400's Augustine's City of God was written in reply to the blame the Christians for disaster mentality, after a sacking of Rome. And the deposing of the remaining Emperor in the West by a Germanic chieftain and officer in 476 was just a part of the onward process. KFkairosfocus_{November 24, 2013
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Mark Frank, re:
#109 jstanley01 Fair enough – strange that in the op-ed JL did not advance the claim that more guns equals less crime. What statistical technique does he use? Specifically is it based on significance levels or something more sophisticated?
I'm sure you're aware -- in more detail than I am -- that isolating any one variable in a social science study is notoriously difficult. If you read Lott's book, he details the statistical techniques that he used with gun ownership. I read an earlier edition than the current, but I imagine in the newest he discusses the technical objections of his critics, seeing as how his book was a hot subject for a news cycle or two back when. As a general reader interested in the subject, after digesting the book, I also read the back-and-forth between Lott and his critics that was available online at the time. And for numerous reasons Lott got my nod FWIW. I wasn't spurred to become an expert in statistics, however, for sake of winning debates online or anywhere else on the issue. I figure that what limited free time I have to devote to it is better spent in practice at the range, drawing from concealment and placing two shots in the center of mass of a silhouette target in two seconds or less. The laws of the Sovereign State of Texas being what they are and all, lol...jstanley01_{November 24, 2013
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F/N 3: As the merry rhetorical dance proceeds apace, let us recall the issues at 115 ff above. KFkairosfocus_{November 24, 2013
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Of related note: The History of Christian Education in America Excerpt: The first colleges in America were founded by Christians and approximately 106 out of the first 108 colleges were Christian colleges. In fact, Harvard University, which is considered today as one of the leading universities in America and the world was founded by Christians. One of the original precepts of the then Harvard College stated that students should be instructed in knowing God and that Christ is the only foundation of all "sound knowledge and learning." http://www.ehow.com/about_6544422_history-christian-education-america.html Of note, Finland now has the best education system in the world, and not so surprisingly Finland also has a very strong prayer ethic,,, Finland is much more: Excerpt: The main Lutheran and Orthodox churches are constitutional national churches of Finland with special roles in ceremonies and often in school morning prayers.,,, Over half of Finns say they pray at least once a month, the highest proportion in Nordics,,, http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=170263&mesg_id=170358 Moreover, Bruce Charlton's Miscellany - October 2011 Excerpt: I had discovered that over the same period of the twentieth century that the US had risen to scientific eminence it had undergone a significant Christian revival. ,,,The point I put to (Richard) Dawkins was that the USA was simultaneously by-far the most dominant scientific nation in the world (I knew this from various scientometic studies I was doing at the time) and by-far the most religious (Christian) nation in the world. How, I asked, could this be - if Christianity was culturally inimical to science? http://charltonteaching.blogspot.com/2011/10/meeting-richard-dawkins-and-his-wife.htmlbornagain77_{November 24, 2013
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Mark Frank: Stephen #112 (I think goodusername has addressed your #118. ) Well, of course you do. You always think that those who disagree with me are wise.
1) You think we don’t need evidence to know American were more stupid than they were once.
Obviously, you have never watched Jay Leno or David Letterman interview men on the street.
2) The only “evidence” you provided was results from a poll conducted by Kellyanne Conway – a committed Republican campaigner.
So what? The study was sound and many other like it have been conducted. You should read "The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America, by Charlotte Iserbyt. Further, you should study the documents written by educators between 1927 and 1940. In other words, you should acquaint yourself with the facts.
Even if the poll were valid, and I would want to know a lot more about how it was carried out to be convinced, this is evidence of ignorance not stupidity.
Anyone who doesn't know that the Old Testament is older than the New Testament is stupid.
) The “evidence” only shows the current situation. If you want to know if A is worse than B then you need to measure A and B.
So now you want me to remind you again about how the standards for the SAT scores have been dropping for decades? Have you taken that eight-grade graduation examination from 1920 yet?StephenB_{November 24, 2013
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The following video shows that the SAT (Scholastic Aptitude Test) scores for students showed a steady decline, for seventeen years from the top spot or near the top spot in the world, after the removal of prayer from the public classroom by the Supreme Court, not by public decree, in 1963. Whereas the SAT scores for private Christian schools have consistently remained at the top, or near the top, spot in the world: The Real Reason American Education Has Slipped – David Barton – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4318930 you can see the dramatic difference, of the SAT scores for private Christian schools compared to public schools, at the following sites; Aliso Viejo Christian School – SAT 10 Comparison Report http://www.alisoviejochristianschool.org/sat_10.html CognitiveGenesis http://www.cognitivegenesis.org/?page_id=1228 What Lies Behind Growing Secularism by William Lane Craig - May 2012 - podcast (steep decline in altruism of young people since early 1960's) http://www.reasonablefaith.org/what-lies-behind-growing-secularism United States Crime Rates 1960 - 2010 (Please note the skyrocketing crime rate from 1963, the year prayer was removed from school, thru 1980, the year the steep climb in crime rate finally leveled off.) of note: The slight decline in crime rate from the mid 90s until now is attributed in large part to tougher enforcement on minor crimes. (a nip it in the bud policy) http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm AMERICA: To Pray Or Not To Pray - David Barton - graphs corrected for population growth http://www.whatyouknowmightnotbeso.com/graphs.html The following article points out the flaw in a 2007 study that found equality in education between public schools and private schools by 'correcting' the test scores upwardly for public schools: Do private schools educate children better than public schools? Excerpt: The results of education testing seems to show mixed results on the question of whether private schools educate children better. The results of the 2000 National Assessment of Educational Progress tests showed that private school students achieved higher scores at all three grade levels tested. However, a 2007 Center on Education Policy study found that once socioeconomic factors are corrected when assessing test results, private school students didn't perform any better than public school students. Basically, this study says that students who did well on the standardized tests would have done well regardless of whether they attended a private or public school. However, moving past the dueling tests and studies, what's clear is that private school students have better SAT scores, and better college admission and graduation rates, regardless of socioeconomic level. http://curiosity.discovery.com/question/private-schools-educate-public-schoolsbornagain77_{November 24, 2013
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The following video shows that the SAT (Scholastic Aptitude Test) scores for students showed a steady decline, for seventeen years from the top spot or near the top spot in the world, after the removal of prayer from the public classroom by the Supreme Court, not by public decree, in 1963. Whereas the SAT scores for private Christian schools have consistently remained at the top, or near the top, spot in the world: The Real Reason American Education Has Slipped – David Barton – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4318930 you can see the dramatic difference, of the SAT scores for private Christian schools compared to public schools, at the following sites; Aliso Viejo Christian School – SAT 10 Comparison Report http://www.alisoviejochristianschool.org/sat_10.html CognitiveGenesis http://www.cognitivegenesis.org/?page_id=1228 What Lies Behind Growing Secularism by William Lane Craig - May 2012 - podcast (steep decline in altruism of young people since early 1960's) http://www.reasonablefaith.org/what-lies-behind-growing-secularism United States Crime Rates 1960 - 2010 (Please note the skyrocketing crime rate from 1963, the year prayer was removed from school, thru 1980, the year the steep climb in crime rate finally leveled off.) of note: The slight decline in crime rate from the mid 90s until now is attributed in large part to tougher enforcement on minor crimes. (a nip it in the bud policy) http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm AMERICA: To Pray Or Not To Pray - David Barton - graphs corrected for population growth http://www.whatyouknowmightnotbeso.com/graphs.html The following article points out the flaw in a 2007 study that found equality in education between public schools and private schools by 'correcting' the test scores upwardly for public schools: Do private schools educate children better than public schools? Excerpt: The results of education testing seems to show mixed results on the question of whether private schools educate children better. The results of the 2000 National Assessment of Educational Progress tests showed that private school students achieved higher scores at all three grade levels tested. However, a 2007 Center on Education Policy study found that once socioeconomic factors are corrected when assessing test results, private school students didn't perform any better than public school students. Basically, this study says that students who did well on the standardized tests would have done well regardless of whether they attended a private or public school. However, moving past the dueling tests and studies, what's clear is that private school students have better SAT scores, and better college admission and graduation rates, regardless of socioeconomic level. http://curiosity.discovery.com/question/private-schools-educate-public-schools Of related note: The History of Christian Education in America Excerpt: The first colleges in America were founded by Christians and approximately 106 out of the first 108 colleges were Christian colleges. In fact, Harvard University, which is considered today as one of the leading universities in America and the world was founded by Christians. One of the original precepts of the then Harvard College stated that students should be instructed in knowing God and that Christ is the only foundation of all "sound knowledge and learning." http://www.ehow.com/about_6544422_history-christian-education-america.html Of note, Finland now has the best education system in the world, and not so surprisingly Finland also has a very strong prayer ethic,,, Finland is much more: Excerpt: The main Lutheran and Orthodox churches are constitutional national churches of Finland with special roles in ceremonies and often in school morning prayers.,,, Over half of Finns say they pray at least once a month, the highest proportion in Nordics,,, http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=170263&mesg_id=170358 Moreover, Bruce Charlton's Miscellany - October 2011 Excerpt: I had discovered that over the same period of the twentieth century that the US had risen to scientific eminence it had undergone a significant Christian revival. ,,,The point I put to (Richard) Dawkins was that the USA was simultaneously by-far the most dominant scientific nation in the world (I knew this from various scientometic studies I was doing at the time) and by-far the most religious (Christian) nation in the world. How, I asked, could this be - if Christianity was culturally inimical to science? http://charltonteaching.blogspot.com/2011/10/meeting-richard-dawkins-and-his-wife.html Of related interest:bornagain77_{November 24, 2013
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Stephen #112 (I think goodusername has addressed your #118. )
It is obvious, for example, that Americans are more stupid than they once were. While I presented evidence for that fact (and can produce more), it really shouldn’t be necessary.
So 1) You think we don’t need evidence to know American were more stupid than they were once. 2) The only “evidence” you provided was results from a poll conducted by Kellyanne Conway – a committed Republican campaigner. Even if the poll were valid, and I would want to know a lot more about how it was carried out to be convinced, this is evidence of ignorance not stupidity. 3) The “evidence” only shows the current situation. If you want to know if A is worse than B then you need to measure A and B. Mark Frank_{November 24, 2013
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and then there is this stunning archeological evidence:
The Physical Ashen Remains of Sodom and Gomorrah as described in the Book of Genesis - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Qi8MnzgT3E
But as with all things, there is a important nuance to be taken into consideration in understanding the judgement that God rendered on Sodom and Gomorrah:
The Real Reason God Destroyed Sodom & Gomorrah - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5325867/ Ezekiel 16:49-50 'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.'
bornagain77_{November 24, 2013
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Start with Rome.
Yes, if there's one thing the Roman Empire is known for, it's for its short life. :-)
Homosexuality feminized the men to such an extent that they couldn’t fight off the barbarian tribes and didn’t even want to try.
Rome had risen in power and reached its height while being an empire that's very tolerant of homosexuality. But Rome had become increasingly Christian and homophobic in the centuries leading towards its fall, and long before the Fall of Rome homosexual acts were even punishable by death. It would be hard to come up with an example - even a hypothetical - that shows the opposite of what you're arguing.
Then there is the little problem that homosexuals cannot reproduce. It’s kind of hard to maintain a society with no people.
Has any society ever run out of people because of too many people becoming homosexuals?goodusername_{November 24, 2013
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[Homosexuality destroys a society] Alan Fox
Really
yes, really?
What history confirms that not discriminating against homosexuals dooms a society to destruction? I should be very interested to learn of these societies that homosexuals caused to go belly up.
Start with Rome. Homosexuality feminized the men to such an extent that they couldn’t fight off the barbarian tribes and didn’t even want to try. The “femmes” must have told the “butches” to stay home and soak in the hot tub. Then there is the little problem that homosexuals cannot reproduce. It’s kind of hard to maintain a society with no people.StephenB_{November 24, 2013
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disaffected, not defective, pardon.kairosfocus_{November 24, 2013
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F/N 2: It seems AF will not acknowledge that human sexuality has a naturally evident Creation Order anchored purpose. One deeply connected to the formation and stability of families as the foundational institution of society -- one that requires longstanding commitment [as in, easy and widespread divorce is another very worrying sign], sacrifice and unselfish service [as in porn and the culture of self indulgence it reflects and accelerates is a warning sign] to thrive and effectively nurture the next generation [as in, watch out] . . . especially young men who must in each generation be tamed from becoming wolf packs preying on society and its members from within or without, creating the chaos that demands tyranny as preferable to anarchy, triggering ruin on both horns of that dilemma. It seems, further, that he dismisses the insight that evil is best understood in light of perversion, frustration and privation of the good from purpose. So, with signs of chaos all around and the utter destabilisation of the foundational institution of social survival, he wishes to play at selective hyperskepticism in part driven by the influence of amoral ideologies that open the door to nihilism; and where beyond a certain point, the good and decent will be so defective that few will be willing to stand in the gap and lay reputation or life and limb on the line to defend it and uphold justice . . . leading to corrupt and cynical misrule, courts of injustice and abusive and destructive policing and military forces little better than organised gangs of predators and warlords running little more than protection rackets. Where of course, that which he would demand approval of is one of the cluster of signs and accelerants of the raging fire that is even now burning down our civilisation -- a second time around. (He seems to have forgotten the fate of pagan civilisation and doubtless thinks this diagnosis and warning can be simply brushed aside as of no account, never mind Nero and co, the primary targets.) Poster boy, or maybe BA has a point, on someone overdoing a parody. KFkairosfocus_{November 24, 2013
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F/N: Let us remind ourselves, again, of Dr Dawkins' key admission in the August 1995 Sci Am:
Nature is not cruel, only pitilessly indifferent. This lesson is one of the hardest for humans to learn. We cannot accept that things might be neither good nor evil, neither cruel nor kind, but simply callous: indifferent to all suffering, lacking all purpose [--> It escapes Dr Dawkins that we may have good reason for refusing this implication of his favoured ideological evolutionary materialism] . . . . In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won’t find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but pitiless indifference . . . . DNA neither cares nor knows. DNA just is. And we dance to its music. [“God’s Utility Function,” Sci. Am. Aug 1995, pp. 80 - 85.]
In short, on his evolutionary materialism, there is no basis for justice, for good, for disapproving evil save for tastes and preferences subject to might and manipulation make 'right.' And for sure OUGHT is no more than such and on this worldview has no foundational IS that can properly ground it. If the cosmos were what the evolutionary materialists tell us, it would be amoral; which is what Dr Dawkins goes out of his way to argue -- including trying to appeal to the problem of evil evidently unaware of the decisive nature of the free will defense. When therefore we see advocates of evolutionary materialism or other fellow-traveller views and ideologies demand a proof for the objectivity of morality acceptable to them, or for any particular precept that does not fit in with the current partyline fashionable views, we need to realise that for such the issue is settled long before facts, issues, the voice of conscience or the shock of a broken body of a seven year old boy who was kidnapped bound, gagged with his school socks and brutally violated sexually, expiring from asphyxiation can be heard. So long as they cling to their preconceptions, no matter how absurd or patently destructive the consequences, they will never acknowledge that wrong or evil rise above might and manipulation make 'right.' They may use the right sounding words and tug at our sensibilities, but in the end the matter is that their scheme is irretrievably amoral. Which is just what Prof Provine stated in the notorious Darwin Day address of U Tenn, 1998:
Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent . . .
No wonder Plato warned us so long ago now in The Laws Bk X, of the absurd and destructive consequences of such ideologies -- and yes, modern Lab Coats notwithstanding, we are dealing with an ancient speculative philosophy. One, that boils down to "seeing is believing" on steroids -- never mind, that there is a major conundrum accounting for the conscious awareness involved in such seeing and understanding -- not just sensing stimuli and computing of algorithms allegedly incrementally written by blind chance and mechanical necessity that led to differential reproductive success:
Ath. . . . [[The avant garde philosophers and poets, c. 360 BC] say that fire and water, and earth and air [[i.e the classical "material" elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art, and that as to the bodies which come next in order-earth, and sun, and moon, and stars-they have been created by means of these absolutely inanimate existences. The elements are severally moved by chance and some inherent force according to certain affinities among them-of hot with cold, or of dry with moist, or of soft with hard, and according to all the other accidental admixtures of opposites which have been formed by necessity. After this fashion and in this manner the whole heaven has been created, and all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only. [[In short, evolutionary materialism premised on chance plus necessity acting without intelligent guidance on primordial matter is hardly a new or a primarily "scientific" view! Notice also, the trichotomy of causal factors: (a) chance/accident, (b) mechanical necessity of nature, (c) art or intelligent design and direction.] . . . . [[Thus, they hold that t]he Gods exist not by nature, but by art, and by the laws of states, which are different in different places, according to the agreement of those who make them; and that the honourable is one thing by nature and another thing by law, and that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.- [[Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT.] These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might [[ Evolutionary materialism leads to the promotion of amorality], and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [[Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality "naturally" leads to continual contentions and power struggles; cf. dramatisation here], these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is, to live in real dominion over others [[such amoral factions, if they gain power, "naturally" tend towards ruthless tyranny], and not in legal subjection to them.
Beyond a certain point, we can only point out, ring fence and warn. Let him who hath an ear to hear and a heart to understand take due heed. KFkairosfocus_{November 24, 2013
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