Apes Is People Too

_{Barry Arrington

April 21, 2015

Intelligent Design}

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Story here.

For the first time in US history, a judge has decreed that a pair of chimpanzees held at a university research facility are covered by the same laws that govern the detention of humans, effectively rendering the animals as legal “people” in the eyes of the law. New York Supreme Court Justice Barbara Jaffe said that the apes, held at Stony Brook University for research purposes, are covered by a writ of habeas corpus — a basic legal principle that lets people challenge the validity of their detention.

The bag of chemicals we call “ape” is in principle no different from the bag of chemicals we call “human.” Justice Douglas famously wanted to extend rights to rocks and streams. This is where materialist reasoning must lead.

Here’s an interesting question. Would that same liberal judge extend habeas corpus rights to an eight pound human baby about to be chopped into pieces by an abortionist for the crime of not yet being born?

Comments

Bacteria Some time after I wrote these web pages, a Bible skeptic unwittingly showed me yet another example of advanced scientific/medical knowledge in the Bible. He posted a message on a discussion board that ridiculed some verses in Leviticus 13 and 14 that mention leprosy on walls and on garments. He felt this was silly and an error since leprosy is a human disease. What this skeptic was unaware of is the fact that leprosy is a bacteria, a living organism, that certainly can survive on walls and garments! In fact, the Medic-Planet.com encyclopedia notes that leprosy "can survive three weeks or longer outside the human body, such as in dust or on clothing"2. It is no wonder that God commanded the Levitical priests to burn the garments of leprosy victims! (Leviticus 13:52) Laws of Quarantine In the same Med-Planet encyclopedia cited above we read that "It was not until 1873 that leprosy could be shown to be infectious rather than hereditary."2 Of course God knew this all along, as His laws to Moses reveal (Leviticus 13, 14, 22, Numbers 19:20). His instructions regarding quarantine to prevent the spread of leprosy and other infectious diseases are nothing short of remarkable, considering that this life-saving practice was several thousand years ahead of its time. Infected persons were instructed to isolate themselves outside the camp until healed, and were to shave and wash thoroughly. The priests that administered care were instructed to change their clothes and wash thoroughly after inspecting a plague victim. It should be re-emphasized that the Israelites were the only culture to practice quarantine until the last century, when medical advances finally demonstrated the importance of sanitation and isolation during plagues. The devastating black plague of the 14th century that claimed millions of lives was not broken until the church fathers in Vienna began encouraging the public to start following the guidelines as set forth in the Bible. The promising results in Vienna compelled other cities to follow suit, and the dreaded plague was finally eradicated3. http://www.bibleevidences.com/medical.htmbornagain77_{April 22, 2015
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Stenosemella, there were no Hebrew words for bacteria, viruses, or numbers like 14 billion for that matter. God inspired the Prophets in their own language and math. If God used year 5000AD language and math we would all still be scratching our heads saying "what?". Isn't there enough confusion as it is?:)ppolish_{April 22, 2015
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Seversky (24): There is nothing wrong with the King James translation. The problem is with your interpretation, which shows no understanding of the Biblical context. I'll respond further after you have responded to at least some of my other replies on the other threads where you refused to answer me -- the Maine thread, the liberal arts education thread, the thread where you said that divine omniscience was incompatible with free will, and the global cooling thread. Since the global cooling thread was a while back, I'll give you the link: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/66785/Timaeus_{April 22, 2015
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Ppolish, I am not really arguing against you hear. I always understood it more as stewardship, which implies a responsibility. But the examples I used have nothing to do with scripture. The bible does not mention anything about man having dominion over bacteria, viruses and endoparasites. Actually, I am not aware of the bible mentioning anything about single celled organisms at all. Why do you think this is. It seems like a big oversight for god to ignore the group of living beings that constitute, by orders of magnitude, the most numerous and greatest biomass of life on earth.stenosemella_{April 22, 2015
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Roy, Stenosemella, having dominion does not make one impervious. You realize that right? And having dominion is a privilege not a right. Sacred privilege, not to be misused, Misused dominion is not a pretty picture. Ugly evil bad.ppolish_{April 22, 2015
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Good luck explaining that to the sharks and piranhas. Polar bears, mosquitoes, vampire bats and MRSA might welcome your ‘dominion’ too.
Why do we have to explain it to them? We can control the lot, if we so choose.Joe_{April 22, 2015
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Andre, pardon again; the original tongues referenced were Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, and referencing the Bishops' Bible version as existing translation to be revised per direct comparison with the originals; through a committee of 47 broken into six subcommittees. KJV as noted was principally translated from those, Masoretic and Textus Receptus being the relevant text families used. Vulgate and other translations (esp. Geneva) were used for comparison, but the primary textual authority was Hebrew, Aramaic [esp. for a part of Daniel] and Greek. Vulgate, Jerome's Latin version, was not the basis for translation. KFkairosfocus_{April 22, 2015
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Guide of the Perplexed: A Quick Reprise of The Edge of Evolution - Michael Behe - August 20, 2014 Excerpt: If there were a second drug with the efficacy of chloroquine which had always been administered in combination with it (but worked by a different mechanism), resistance to the combination would be expected to arise with a frequency in the neighborhood of 1 in 10^40 -- a medical triumph. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/08/guide_of_the_pe089161.html The multiple drug cocktail that has been so effective in controlling HIV uses much the same strategy of being beyond the 'edge of evolution' that Dr. Behe has elucidated:
When taking any single drug, it is fairly likely that some mutant virus in the patient might happen to be resistant, survive the onslaught, and spawn a resistant lineage. But the probability that the patient hosts a mutant virus that happens to be resistant to several different drugs at the same time is much lower.,,, it "costs" a pest or pathogen to be resistant to a pesticide or drug. If you place resistant and non-resistant organisms in head-to-head competition in the absence of the pesticide or drug, the non-resistant organisms generally win.,,, This therapy has shown early, promising results — it may not eliminate HIV, but it could keep patients' virus loads low for a long time, slowing progression of the disease. http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/medicine_04
Here is research of a promising new antibiotic that could, singly, or perhaps in combination with other antibiotics, surpass Dr. Behe's 2 protein-protein binding site limit:
New class of antibiotics discovered by chemists - March 7, 2014 Excerpt: Researchers who screened 1.2 million compounds found that the oxadiazole inhibits a penicillin-binding protein, PBP2a, and the biosynthesis of the cell wall that enables MRSA to resist other drugs. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/03/140307165953.htm
bornagain77_{April 22, 2015
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sharks http://s1.hubimg.com/u/6415142_f520.jpg piranhas https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-h_T2YN0kY Polar bears http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/jun/05/animalwelfare.animalbehaviour mosquitoes http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/viewSubCategory.asp?id=1259 vampire bats https://speakupforthevoiceless.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/batsbushmeat.jpg MRSA MRSA - Supergerms Do they prove evolution? In places that are exposed to dirt from the street—such as your house—the supergerms are kept in their place not by powerful drugs and poisons but by competition with other germs. And their resistance genes are diluted by genes of the susceptible or non-resistant germs of the same species rather than being concentrated by selective breeding. That is why most non-hospital infections respond readily to antibiotics—the drug kills most of the germs, the body takes care of the rest. If it were not so, the so called supergerms would escape from hospitals and sweep the world. http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v11/i2/supergerms.asp Are You Too Clean? - New Studies Suggest Getting A Little Dirty May Be Just What The Doctor Ordered - December 2010 http://www.creationsafaris.com/crev201012.htm#20101208a flu virus, HIV, Ebola, Biological Information - Positive Genetic Entropy 2-7-2015 by Paul Giem https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W17lVqYQzq4&list=PLHDSWJBW3DNUUhiC9VwPnhl-ymuObyTWJ&index=15bornagain77_{April 22, 2015
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Ppolish: "Seversky & stenosemella, would you deny that humans have dominion over all creatures? Seems to be a scientific fact. Humans have supremacy. Does that make me racist? Maybe I’m a Humanist? Theist Humanist." Yup. That flu virus, HIV, Ebola, TB, Malaria, etc. are quivering in their boots.stenosemella_{April 22, 2015
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Seversky & stenosemella, would you deny that humans have dominion over all creatures?
Good luck explaining that to the sharks and piranhas. Polar bears, mosquitoes, vampire bats and MRSA might welcome your 'dominion' too. RoyRoy_{April 22, 2015
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Seversky & stenosemella, would you deny that humans have dominion over all creatures? Seems to be a scientific fact. Humans have supremacy. Does that make me racist? Maybe I'm a Humanist? Theist Humanist.ppolish_{April 22, 2015
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velikovskys
I think you mean a materialist has no hypothetical authority to tell him how to assign value or quality.
Well, it would still be a problem. If the value of things is determined subjectively by each molecule or atom, then I think that's what the OP was talking about.
It reflects the nature of the designer like all design,right?
ID doesn't say anything about that point. But from my perspective (theistic), once you have a designer and you have a purpose (which I discover theologically), then a hierarchy of values is not arbitrary. There can be a range of values or qualities - a scale, from less to more. From bad to good to perfect. From potential to completeness. That affects everything. That's why we learn - from ignorance to knowledge. A scale of value. That's why we try to improve ourselves, from sin to virtue. When there's a purpose for life, given by the Designer, then "bad things" have a meaning also. They fit on the scale of values. We only know what light is because there is contrast with darkness. We know goodness more in contrast with evil. So, there's a reason to learn and grow. Otherwise, there's really nothing in the materialist view.
I actually said oxygen , second ,not a materialist.
I apologize for both mistakes. As a non-materialist, what other than material do you accept as existing and what origin do you think it has?Silver Asiatic_{April 22, 2015
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SA: Very good insight, News. Chemicals, snowflakes, rocks, molecules, apes, streams, trees, humans. In materialist reasoning, there is no way to assign a hierarchy of value or quality to any of them. I think you mean a materialist has no hypothetical authority to tell him how to assign value or quality. The Ebola virus has rights. It reflects the nature of the designer like all design,right? So does a forest fire (A materialist told me yesterday that fires “starve” for fuel. I was sad to think about how hungry they must get. :-) I actually said oxygen , second ,not a materialist.velikovskys_{April 22, 2015
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KF I'm not saying the Vulgate is wrong just that the KJV is a translation of a translation.Andre_{April 22, 2015
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The bag of chemicals we call “ape” is in principle no different from the bag of chemicals we call “human.” Justice Douglas famously wanted to extend rights to rocks and streams. This is where materialist reasoning must lead.
Very good insight, News. Chemicals, snowflakes, rocks, molecules, apes, streams, trees, humans. In materialist reasoning, there is no way to assign a hierarchy of value or quality to any of them. The Ebola virus has rights. So does a forest fire (A materialist told me yesterday that fires "starve" for fuel. I was sad to think about how hungry they must get. :-) End world hunger ... feed bacteria).
Here’s an interesting question. Would that same liberal judge extend habeas corpus rights to an eight pound human baby about to be chopped into pieces by an abortionist for the crime of not yet being born?
Sometimes the truth is so brutal it's impossible to add anything with comment ... this is one of those cases.Silver Asiatic_{April 22, 2015
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Andre, Pardon, no. Wycliffe, yes. And, Jerome's Vulgate is to be respected in its own right. By the time of Luther, Calvin & Tyndale, original language sources were consulted. KJV is generations after that. The KJV people did take inputs from the longstanding and recent translators but worked from the Masoretic tradition and the textus receptus Greek. The Epistle Dedicatory is clear as to the Royal mandate:
when Your Highness had once out of deep judgment apprehended how convenient it was, that, out of the Original Sacred Tongues, together with comparing of the labours, both in our own and other foreign languages, of many worthy men who went before us, there should be one more exact translation of the Holy Scriptures into the English Tongue; Your Majesty did never desist to urge and to excite those to whom it was commended, that the Work might be hastened, and that the business might be expedited in so decent a manner, as a matter of such importance might justly require.
Th original, full title of the work -- accordingly -- is:
THE HOLY BIBLE, Containing the Old Testament, AND THE NEW: Newly Translated out of the Original tongues: & with the former Translations diligently compared and revised, by his Majesties special Commandment
KFkairosfocus_{April 22, 2015
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Timaeus can confirm this or correct me, The biggest problem that the KJV has is that it was not translated from the original Hebrew and Greek manuscripts but from the Latin Vulgate. Translation is by far the hardest thing to do in this world......Andre_{April 22, 2015
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Sev, the KJV is 400 years old, 250 years old in the most common revision in use; there has been a lot of progress with understanding language since and there has been a relaxation of the political constraints of the time that led to an over emphasis on word for word literalism when a more dynamically equivalent rendering would perhaps have been truer to the intent; one had to reckon with suspicious and hostile critics looking for any handy excuse to reject and on balance the safest path was what is often the second best technical translation option, knowing that the translation operated in the context of scholarship and a tradition of educated clergy able to draw out deeper features and nuances. In short, first class exegesis and preaching are a necessary companion to popular translation into the vernacular; something that is too often overlooked. But, on balance the KJV is rightfully regarded as a classic of translation and as a blessing in its own right. Other versions sometimes tend to follow its precedent too much, for various reasons. But the wider point is that text without context is pretext; the context at multiple levels makes it clear that human oversight of Creation is a stewardship with accountability and responsibility to manage wisely rather than abuse and despoil. KFkairosfocus_{April 22, 2015
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Seversky, Those Bible passages do not support your claim- not even close. Having dominion over something does NOT mean you can do as you please.Joe_{April 22, 2015
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Timaeus @ 20
As someone who has translated the “Greek or Hebrew originals” I can tell you that in the broader Biblical context these statements do not mean what you take them to mean.
That's fine. It makes you one of the best-placed here to explain what it should mean. I'm always willing to learn. Where do the KJV and later versions get it wrong?Seversky_{April 22, 2015
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Timaeus, I just want to express appreciation for your courage, stance and outspokenness as a classics scholar. KFkairosfocus_{April 22, 2015
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Eugen & Andre: What is there to say, other than that whom the gods would destroy, first they rob of reason -- this is bizarre, utter shameless insanity ["marrying" a Ferris Wheel or the like?] . . . and increasingly in the halls of power. (Other than, read the diagnosis and prognosis here.) KFkairosfocus_{April 22, 2015
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Andre Sadly it's already happening, we are descending into madness... http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/florida-woman-married-ferris-wheel-like-ride-loved-decades-article-1.1516404Eugen_{April 22, 2015
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Seversky (7): As someone who has translated the "Greek or Hebrew originals" I can tell you that in the broader Biblical context these statements do not mean what you take them to mean. And anyone familiar with the theological and historical discussion over these passages knows this. There are dozens of books and hundreds of articles addressing exactly the charge that you are making. You should learn something about theology and Biblical exegesis before you make reckless and irresponsible statements. And you won't learn anything about those subjects over at AtBC. Try a good university library, and some good books from that library. Or better still, swallow your science-geek pride and take a course in philosophy, theology, history, Biblical studies, etc. from a qualified teacher at a good school. You'll be a better person for it.Timaeus_{April 22, 2015
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I'm going to make a prediction, this drive to give animals personhood status is going to back fire on these green hippies and secular humanists, it won't be long before the first loony will announce his intention to legally marry some animal and what kind of bigot will you be to prevent two people who love each other from getting married?Andre_{April 21, 2015
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Is barabara jaffe a real person. ? Saying apes have human rights/laws is stripping away human rights and laws. The people never gave these rights to creatures. Its by the consent of the p[ the people only that man has rights save self evident God given rights. this Jusge is a fool and a enemy to justice, intelligence, America. Why not make the apes the judges? Probably affirmitive action would bring the same result. So a unborn baby is not covered by human rights but a stinking ape is. truly evidence the judges are interfering with the laws and not obeying them. Fire her please.Robert Byers_{April 21, 2015
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Here’s an interesting question. Would that same liberal judge extend habeas corpus rights to an eight pound human baby about to be chopped into pieces by an abortionist for the crime of not yet being born?
You took the words right out of my mouth, Mr Arrington. The world has gone loco when animals are given more rights than people...by people. We have sown the wind and are reaping the whirlwind.Blue_Savannah_{April 21, 2015
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KF: "Seversy: FTR, you are citing the operator of a hate and slander site and web vandal. KF" Actually he is citing the bible. But it is refreshing to see you admit that the bible contains hate and slander. I was afraid that I was just misinterpreting it.stenosemella_{April 21, 2015
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Seversky,I think Abraham Lincoln put it best: "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." CheersCross_{April 21, 2015
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