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The Meat of the Matter

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I invite our readers to review my last post and the exchanges between me and eigenstate (hereafter “E”) in the combox.  I could go through a point-by-point rebuttal of eigenstate’s comments, but it would be pointless, because far from rebutting the central thrust of the post, he did not lay a finger on it.   Here is the central argument of that post:  The immaterial mind exists.  Everyone knows the immaterial mind exists.  Its existence is, indeed, the primordial datum that one simply cannot not know.  Therefore, any denial of the existence of the immaterial mind is not only false; it is incoherent.  Hence, the immaterial mind is not an “explanation” of any sort; it is a datum one must take into account in any robust (indeed, any coherent) ontology.  And if your metaphysics requires you to deny this undeniable fact, that is a problem with your metaphysics, not the fact.

In response E screams over and over and over (one can just imagine his wild eyes rolling back in his head as spittle spews from his lips) “I’m a meat robot; I’m a meat robot; I’m a meat robot.  And so are you.”  One wonders why a meat robot is so passionate about evangelizing all of the other meat robots to ensure they know (can meat “know”?) the true nature of their meatiness.

But E, you might object, it is absurd to say that the physical components of brain meat (oxygen atoms, hydrogen atoms, carbon atoms, etc.) can exhibit the attributes of an immaterial mind such as subjective self-awareness, qualia, intentionality, and the perception of subject-object duality.  Isn’t it just as absurd to say that amalgamations of the physical components of brain meat can exhibit those attributes?  Stupid! E responds.  You have committed the fallacy of composition.  What is the fallacy of composition?  That is indeed a real logical fallacy.  It means that it is fallacious to infer that a whole can exhibit only the attributes of its individual parts.  Here’s an example of the fallacy:  An individual brick cannot provide shelter; therefore a house made of bricks cannot provide shelter.   How does this apply to brain meat?  According to E, brain meat as a whole has properties far different from its meaty components, and one of those properties is the capacity to delude itself into believing it has the attributes of an immaterial mind.

Now, to his credit, I am sure E will be the first to admit that not all kinds of meat have this capacity.  Indeed, brain meat is the only kind of meat that we know of that does.  And what is the difference between brain meat and other kinds of meat that accounts for this difference?  It is all a matter of how the meat is arranged.  “Structure matters,” E observes pedantically.  Wait just a minute.  Is E saying that if a rib eye steak were structured just a little differently it would be conscious?  Well, yes, that is kind of the gist of it.  But where is the dividing line between non-conscious rib eye steak kinds of meat and conscious brain meat, you might ask.  Well, here is where things get a little murky.  But according to E, if we arrange the same stuff that rib eye steaks are made of (oxygen atoms, hydrogen atoms, carbon atoms, etc.) into a particularly complex configuration, at some point . . . wait for it . . . poof! you get meat that (has the illusion of) self-awareness, qualia, intentionality, and the perception of subject-object duality.

That’s right.  It turns out that invoking the fallacy of composition is actually just a backhanded way of invoking Poof! It emerged.  And like all emergentist accounts of consciousness, the pesky details about how consciousness (or the illusion thereof) emerges from simpler kinds of meat are never explained.  It really is just that simple.  E’s reasoning goes something like this:  You commit the fallacy of composition if you deny that houses emerge from bricks arranged in a particular way; and in just the same way you commit the fallacy of composition if you deny that consciousness emerges from meaty components arranged in a certain way.

“But,” you might object, “meaty components – no matter how complex the arrangement – are still, well, you know, meat, which is a physical thing.  How can an immaterial mental phenomenon like consciousness emerge from meat?  Isn’t that a category error?”  Now here is where E’s evangelism takes on a fundamentalist zeal reminiscent of an Appalachian snake handler.  In response to such a question he would stand to his feet, stretch out his arm, point his boney finger at you, and scream “Infidel!”  You see, E is committed to materialism with an intense quasi-religious fervor, and he holds his faith commitments with a dogmatic, brassbound and rigid fideism that would make a medieval churchman blush.  After he caught his breath and got his heart rate under control, he would reply breathlessly, “There can be no category error, because there is only one category and that category is physical; thus sayeth the prophets of materialism.”

Here is where the story gets very sad.  You see, materialism is a stunted, narrow-minded and provincial way of looking at the world.  A more robust ontology allows one to take the world as he finds it and revel in the full panoply of its grandeur, beauty and mystery.  But materialism says if self-evident facts conflict with its precepts, to hell with the facts; the precepts come first.  The god of materialism is a harsh taskmaster, and he forces all of his servants to wear blinders lest they be tempted to behold the forbidden facts.  And E, having heeded his god and donned his blinders, literally cannot see the beauty, vastness and glory of his immaterial mind.  Instead, he stamps his foot, gets red in the face, and chants, “I’m a meat robot; I’m a meat robot.”  Madness; sheer madness.

 

Comments
A couple centuries ago, one might have understood that a water molecule is made up of an H and 2 O atoms. But one would have had to say, on being asked, “what makes water wet” when H atoms and O atoms aren’t wet” – “I don’t know, it’s some sort of emergent property that obtains in the combination of the atoms and the structure of the molecule”. As it turns out, that is a kind of emergence that we can explain in detail and understand as characteristic of (liquid) water that obtains from the particular way the molecule is structured. It’s been “de-magified” if we want to be overly gracious to our supernaturalist critics. Is that a guarantee that we will soon or ever have a similar level of understanding of how the brain developed from more increasingly more rudimentary forms as we go back on the timeline? No.
Now that's a new one. Issuing yet another materialist promissory note with one hand, and telling me you probably won't be able to pay it with the other. I don't see why you think this helps your position. It does not.Barry Arrington
May 13, 2015
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@Barry,
Only a quasi-religious fundamentalist like you could write that sentence. You seem to be suggestion that you believe there is no necessary limitation to what atoms and molecules can do if only you arrange them in the right combination. Sigh.
No, that would be again, to commit the same error! I'm at a loss as to how to get this concept through to you, at this point. We don't have access, a priori to what is necessarily true either way. We don't know, and have not claimed and do not claim, that there are no necessary limits on a given whole, based on its proper parts. But we also do not know, of necessity, and a priori, what characteristics obtain from the whole, just by examining the features of the parts. The error you're grooving on here lately lays claims to conclusions by necessity that don't actually obtain by necessity. That's why it's called a "fallacy". Perhaps conscious can obtain as the active of a wholly natural, evolved brain. Perhaps not. But what we can say with logical certainty is that you cannot adjudicate this question just by examining the properties of atoms, or bosons, or chunks of flesh. My "suggestion" is that the answer lies in the examination of the evidence, the building and testing of models, etc. Science. you don't get to answers that have higher levels of confidence and likelihood until you demonstrate the efficacy of those models in real world, empirical tests.
That is, you hold that structure cannot be sufficient, even in principle for diverse and profound phenomena we observe in particular configurations of atoms that are not manifest in the atoms themselves. I never said nor implied that. I can’t imagine why you think I did. Yes, houses come from bricks. But if you told me that the “Pythagorean theorem” came from bricks I would say you are nuts unless you can show me in a systematic way how you can get from bricks to “Pythagorean theorem.” It is not the concept of emergent phenomena generally that I deny. Who could? It is your misuse of that concept as a means of pounding the square peg of immaterial consciousness into the round hole of brain meat for no other reason than that you quasi-religious faith commitments demand it.
My faith, when I had such, demanded fealty to my dualist intuitions of the immaterial mind (was raised as a Christian in a very devout Christian Bible-believing family, etc.) The materialist model is something I come to over and against any such intuitions or inclinations toward faith or superstitious impulses. If we were to get a visit from alien "designers" who showed us how and when they "seeded" our ancestors with "brains with meta-representational cognitive abilities and the capacity for introspection and nth-level abstraction", that would be a sufficient basis to endorse a "an alien designer" model over an evolutionary model, based on such demonstrations. So my materialist views don't preclude or disallow such cases. There just aren't any competitors like that out there to supercede the current scientific view. The "superstitious model" doesn't bring any of the kinds of empirical or model-based content that qualifies it for consideration. It doesn't have what it takes to play on that field. But other non-evolutionary models are readily conceivable that would.eigenstate
May 13, 2015
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JimFit, A couple of comments. One, Catholic theology teaches that immaterial souls are incapable of perishing, thus they are eternal. The souls that animals and plants may posses, however, can not be immaterial for that would make them eternal beings. Two, regarding animal intelligence, the question relevant to Barry's idea concerns the capability of conceiving an idea. That is, do Weaver birds have an image or idea of the nest they are building before building it? I don't believe there is a way to test for that, so we can't exclude either possibility (though my intuition suggests that they are indeed capable).rhampton7
May 13, 2015
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That is, if you used the measuring rod you’d like to apply to the scientific view to you own views, which you ostensibly find superior (by virtue of the fact that you hold them over the scientific view), you can’t measure or assess what you endorse.
My God man! It really is the case that you can't see around your metaphysical blinders. You poor pitiful man. How very sad.Barry Arrington
May 13, 2015
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But for all those deficiencies, it’s the only serious game in town.
If you rule out all of the other games by fiat. You really do need to get over yourself. Here's another clue: "My quasi-religious faith commitments prohibit me from considering other solutions" is not equivalent to "other solutions are false." You should write that down 50 times, and maybe it will sink in. Barry Arrington
May 13, 2015
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A thermometer, a machine far simpler than the computer you are reading this on, is an example of a device with intentionality (something pointed out by Daniel Dennett long ago).
If Daniel Dennett pointed this out, then Daniel Dennett is insane.Barry Arrington
May 13, 2015
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E,
The Composition Fallacy does not deny that truths about the proper parts cannot be true about the whole. Instead it identifies the error in asserting that this is necessarily true, or necessarily false, aspects of the part are not, a priori aspects of the whole.
And yet we can know a priori that certain parts – no matter how they are arranged – necessarily cannot be joined together to achieve certain wholes. For example, we can know a priori that bricks cannot be arranged in such a way as to create the law of noncontradiction. Why? Because bricks are physical things and the law of noncontradiction is an immaterial abstract concept. No arrangement of any physical parts can, in principle, result in any immaterial whole. It is simple as this: parts in one ontological category cannot be arranged to create wholes in a separate ontological category. Atoms and minds are in separate ontological categories. Therefore, atoms cannot be arranged to create minds.
Avoiding the fallacy then: “Consciousness subsisting in physical matter may not be impossible in principle, but it can’t happen in practice. Just too complex, wonderful, numinous etc.,
Why would I admit that consciousness subsisting in physical matter may not be impossible in principle? I don’t admit that. I emphatically deny it. Don’t you see that you’ve smuggled in your metaphysics by posing the issue this way? When I say the immaterial mind exists I am not making an empirical claim that is somehow corrigible or dubitable. I am making a metaphysical claim that is incorrigible and indubitable. Indeed, I have made an extremely risky metaphysical claim. You can crush my worldview at a stroke. All you have to do is demonstrate (I said demonstrate E. An assertion – no matter how red in the face you get when you make it – is not a demonstration) that meat can be conscious. If you do, I will hop on the materialist bandwagon and curse the non-existent God of the monotheistic faiths to his non-existent face. E, you need to get over yourself. You don’t get to rule out the immaterial mind by fiat. Your metaphysical commitments are not infallible. You don’t sit ex cathedra over matters of philosophical inquiry. We do not commit the fallacy of composition when we assert that even if certain wholes exceed the properties of their individual parts, it is nevertheless the case that certain parts can never be arranged to create certain wholes. Here's your problem in a nutshell: You seem to think that scientism is equivalent to rationality itself. Here's a clue; far from being equivalent to rationality, scientism is deeply irrational.Barry Arrington
May 13, 2015
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It is not a metaphor for your position; it is your position — i.e, the brain is smart meat. But I understand why you need to think it is a metaphor.
Uh, the brain is not muscle or fat tissue -- that's what meat is. You're stickler for definitions, so practice what your preach here; look it and you will see you again mistaken. As I said, I was fine with the artistic license you indulged in the use of "meat", but apparently, you really do think the brain is a kind of meat, like all seriously 'n stuff. That's the case.
Yes, yes. That is exactly what I predicted you would say – using those very words. I don’t know why you think you’ve made some kind of point.
Whether you predict its arrival or not has not bearing on its "pointedness". it's an insight into a basic error you repeatedly make in your posts, an error that underwrites your thesis. So it may be predictable, but it's relevant and important.
Translation: When Barry asks for a systematic explanation instead of invoking emergantism (the materialist equivalent of magic), I can deflect merely by saying that his refusal to accept materialists magic as an explanation is “the composition fallacy.”
No, not at all. Your commitment to the composition fallacy stands on its own, and neither needs nor relates to anything I say or hold about ermegentism or evolution. I think you don't understand that the Composition Fallacy is a logical error, yeah? It's entirely self-inflicted and not contingent on anything I say or do. We do not have a demonstrable recipe for the original self-replicating cell(s). We don't know how it happened, and on this question we may never know beyond a very humble level of speculation and a basket of very plausible but unverified-as-historical paths to that point. A detailed, verifiable model of the development path for consciousness and other activities of the brain is a long way off by all accounts, although the prospects are very good for continued and substantial progress against the problem based on headway we have already made and are making right now. There are many, many gaps in our knowledge, and this won't change any time soon. As scientists like to quip: if we fill in some of that knowledge, we seem to have just created more gaps! At any rate, if one endorse the idea of models, models that cohere and have entailments and make novel, testable predictions, the scientific view of the development of the brain just doesn't have any competition. We can catalog all the myriad things we don't know about consciousness or evolutionary pathways to meta-representational cognition, and lament our lack of knowledge on all of those questions. But for all those deficiencies, it's the only serious game in town. That is, if you used the measuring rod you'd like to apply to the scientific view to you own views, which you ostensibly find superior (by virtue of the fact that you hold them over the scientific view), you can't measure or assess what you endorse. It's not a tractable subject. That's a form of tu quoque, I guess. If you suppose that a materialist is somehow at fault for the gaps in materialist knowledge, for the holes in between what can be tested, verified, falsified, observed, then it seems your own views are in for a much much more severe assault by your own standards. A couple centuries ago, one might have understood that a water molecule is made up of an H and 2 O atoms. But one would have had to say, on being asked, "what makes water wet" when H atoms and O atoms aren't wet" - "I don't know, it's some sort of emergent property that obtains in the combination of the atoms and the structure of the molecule". As it turns out, that is a kind of emergence that we can explain in detail and understand as characteristic of (liquid) water that obtains from the particular way the molecule is structured. It's been "de-magified" if we want to be overly gracious to our supernaturalist critics. Is that a guarantee that we will soon or ever have a similar level of understanding of how the brain developed from more increasingly more rudimentary forms as we go back on the timeline? No. But we do have a long and well-documented history of science making progress on problems like this, and ones just as difficult, and more in some ways. This is a reason-based gorund on which to place our understanding that while there are no guarantees, past as prologue, and all the evidence we has points to a material answer as the most likely actual answer, given the available options. If we never find out, it's still not magic, it just remains an unknown.eigenstate
May 13, 2015
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rhampton7
This is a much tougher question than Barry is willing to concede. For example, we can demonstrate that Weaver birds are intelligent designers because of their irreducibly complex nests. However, according to Catholic theology, these Weaver birds lack immaterial souls capable of contemplative thought. That means that there is a category of intelligence, found amongst living forms, that can be described as a “meat computer.” The empathy of dogs, the language of whales, the creativity of apes, all of it can be chalked up to a purely material, mechanical explanation. No poofs required.
As a Christian Orthodox i believe that life = Consciousness even if we are talking about single organisms or dogs or whales and so on..we humans differ from the rest of the kingdoms ONLY because we obtained knowledge. Birds and other creatures build but the difference from our "intelligent" builders is that our builders know why they build, birds do it instinctive, birds lack the knowledge of design, that's why you don't see birds building something different or create mechanical structures to have etc water near their nests so they won't be in danger from predators.JimFit
May 13, 2015
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eigenstate:
That means you have something much more primitive long ago — hundreds of millions of years, perhaps — that is a precursor, but maybe not much more than a brain stem.
Did you mean brain STEM?Mung
May 13, 2015
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“feedback loops” = intentionality, subjective self-awareness, perception of subject-object duality, qualia, and unity of consciousness. Sigh. And I bet you sneer at what you call the credulous blind leap-in-the dark faith of religious fundies.
What I was referring to by "feedback loops" was the cumulative processes of evolution: deleterious variations tend to be removed from the population at higher rates than neutral or beneficial variations. This "loop" runs over and over and over, and over time preserves, develops and extend some features, and removes others. The key being that he process begins on successive cycles where it left off on previous cycles, rather than starting from the same point each time.
Computers have feedback loops. No computer has any of these qualities, or ever will. Computation is not consciousness; they are not even the same sort of things, much less the same thing.
You misunderstood my reference to "feedback loops", which I clarified for you, above. A thermometer, a machine far simpler than the computer you are reading this on, is an example of a device with intentionality (something pointed out by Daniel Dennett long ago). It has "about-ness", an "directed-ness" towar, with respect to sensing and triggering control processes toward a target temperature. On the "sort of things" question, all that can be said for the immaterialist side is that the intuition is supreme, and the terms and concepts are either undefined or so ambiguously defined as to be indistinguishable-from-defined. Just to test this yourself, consider what you would answer to the question "what is a a 'sort of thing'"? in your metaphysics? There is no "type" to define for an immaterial mind to compare "sorts" against with, say "computation". You don't have an ontology or a lexicon that allow for any such comparisons. It only obtains as a claim as a kind of visceral expression from the intuition. What can be asserted without any facts or evidence (or in this case, without any operational semantics even) can be dismissed just as easily, right? If you suppose you're doing more than that, here, I'll be interested to here how one classifies the type for a immaterial mind or "immaterial consciousness" such that we can see how or why computation would be ontological incompatible, or functionally incompatible. My claim is that "immaterial mind" is an "anti-concept", in the sense of an "ant-pattern" in software engineering. It is not a concept at all, and lacks the semantics and applicability we would find in any actual concept. It's a placeholder for "I-don't-know-anything-about-this-subject". Not holding my breath -- I know the drill. But if you were to have to start substantiating your concepts in the way materialists should and do -- never mind substantiating evidential claims for now -- you'd find it very difficult going, indeed.eigenstate
May 13, 2015
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This is a much tougher question than Barry is willing to concede. For example, we can demonstrate that Weaver birds are intelligent designers because of their irreducibly complex nests. However, according to Catholic theology, these Weaver birds lack immaterial souls capable of contemplative thought. That means that there is a category of intelligence, found amongst living forms, that can be described as a "meat computer." The empathy of dogs, the language of whales, the creativity of apes, all of it can be chalked up to a purely material, mechanical explanation. No poofs required.rhampton7
May 13, 2015
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That’s right. It turns out that invoking the fallacy of composition is actually just a backhanded way of invoking Poof! It emerged. And like all emergentist accounts of consciousness, the pesky details about how consciousness (or the illusion thereof) emerges from simpler kinds of meat are never explained. It really is just that simple. E’s reasoning goes something like this: You commit the fallacy of composition if you deny that houses emerge from bricks arranged in a particular way; and in just the same way you commit the fallacy of composition if you deny that consciousness emerges from meaty components arranged in a certain way.
That was neither my intention nor is it useful in pointing to you errors as a way of supporting a scientific view of consciousness and brain development. Your commitment to the errors you are making regarding composition don't make evolution any more credible or true. It's just what it appears on its face -- you keep making basic blunders that defeat your basic thesis. I'd be happy to know that somehow helped the ideas I subscribe to, but only defeats the claims you are making. On identifying the error you're making, it's crucial to qualify the "aspects of the whole" as being necessarily necessarily negated. For example, if I claim that I necessarily cannot live in a "configuration of bricks" -- it's not possible even in principle -- because I can't "live in a brick", or even live in a "pile of bricks", I will have engaged in the error you've made of your posts on this subject. I've committed to the Fallacy of Composition. But the "necessarily" is essential in that claim (it's often unstated, and implicit). Consider this alternative: "I necessarily cannot make a glider plane out of bricks because a brick can't glide or fly" This commits to the same fallacy. It is fallacious to assert that necessarily things that are true of the proper parts are true of the whole. But as a practical matter, without the "necessarily", without ruling the prospect out in principle, it may be true and sound claim: "I cannot make a glider plane out of bricks because a brick can't fly". The "because" is still formally fallacious, but only insofar as I assert it as a necessary implication. It may well be the case that I indeed cannot make a glider plane out of bricks, and ostensibly for the claimed reason. The awful flight characteristics of a single brick are likely to be just as much a problem in any possible configuration of bricks I come up with in efforts to build a glider plane that works like a glider plane. So, in that case, what is true of the parts is true of the whole, in the practical sense. The Composition Fallacy does not deny that truths about the proper parts cannot be true about the whole. Instead it identifies the error in asserting that this is necessarily true, or necessarily false, aspects of the part are not, a priori aspects of the whole. The application of this to your claims, here, Barry, is this: you claim that atoms (or bits of meat, if you prefer), in any configuration are necessarily insufficient to effect human consciousness or thought, due to the properties of atoms (or bits of meat). You might have said, thinking this through a bit more, that such a claim cannot obtain by necessity, but, like the realization that glider planes can't be made out of bricks, obtains as a practical matter. Avoiding the fallacy then: "Consciousness subsisting in physical matter may not be impossible in principle, but it can't happen in practice. Just too complex, wonderful, numinous etc., That avoids the fallacy, but then, uh, "let's a materialist foot in the door", to paraphrase a popular UD shibboleth. You are still maintaining your position that consciousness does not work as a natural process, but now the playing field is a problem. It was nice and neat when your fallacy left you with a necessary negation of the materialist hypothesis. Now, if you don't "win by necessity", and have to fight this out on the evidence and the facts on the ground, you're in trouble. That's not your game. Which suggests to me that UD's general responses will continue to rely heavily on the Composition Fallacy. I bought Dr. Dembski's Being in Communion from Amazon yesterday, and was not surprised to find this same error in several places just in the first few chapters of the book. It "can't be so", in principle, rather than, "it just isn't so". There's something endemic about that error in the views that form the "tent" of the ID movement, it seems.eigenstate
May 13, 2015
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E,
Cow’s flesh is not just radically different in its structure — and that would be enough to establish my point here — the raw materials are different.
Now you are not being serious. The raw materials are exactly the same – oxygen atoms, hydrogen atoms, carbon atoms, etc. The only physical difference is how those atoms are arranged. I understand your need to deny that point. Because it is utterly devastating to your project. But them’s the facts.
So “structured a little differently” can only be used as an exercise in sarcasm or comical understatement.
No, it can also be used as a devastating reductio ad absurdum counter to your argument. Your deflection means you either not understand your own argument or that you cannot bear where the logic of your own argument leads.
It’s a long, slow, incremental, natural/mechanical process: everything that “poof” is not (that would be a magical term, part of the supernatural lexicon, yeah?) If you want to understand a billion years in development, billions of generations
As I said earlier, we understand. Your faith requires you to believe (or at least assert) that deep time, chance and selection are omnipotent. Keep the faith.Barry Arrington
May 13, 2015
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E,
I understand your choice of “meat” for its rhetorical value in the title, etc, but here you are taking your metaphor too seriously.
It is not a metaphor for your position; it is your position -- i.e, the brain is smart meat. But I understand why you need to think it is a metaphor.
Mental activity in humans obtains in a neural network — this is the difference that makes all the difference: structure matters.
Yes, yes. That is exactly what I predicted you would say – using those very words. I don’t know why you think you’ve made some kind of point.
The Composition Fallacy gets used over and over . . .
Translation: When Barry asks for a systematic explanation instead of invoking emergantism (the materialist equivalent of magic), I can deflect merely by saying that his refusal to accept materialists magic as an explanation is “the composition fallacy.”
Any fair reading of your recent posts on this would conclude that you really do think there is some necessary limitation to what atoms and molecules can do in terms of reifying consciousness, reasoning and abstract thinking . . .
Only a quasi-religious fundamentalist like you could write that sentence. You seem to be suggestion that you believe there is no necessary limitation to what atoms and molecules can do if only you arrange them in the right combination. Sigh.
That is, you hold that structure cannot be sufficient, even in principle for diverse and profound phenomena we observe in particular configurations of atoms that are not manifest in the atoms themselves.
I never said nor implied that. I can’t imagine why you think I did. Yes, houses come from bricks. But if you told me that the “Pythagorean theorem” came from bricks I would say you are nuts unless you can show me in a systematic way how you can get from bricks to “Pythagorean theorem.” It is not the concept of emergent phenomena generally that I deny. Who could? It is your misuse of that concept as a means of pounding the square peg of immaterial consciousness into the round hole of brain meat for no other reason than that you quasi-religious faith commitments demand it. E, I understand. Believe me I do. Your god bids you to pound those square pegs and you feverishly pound away. I just don’t understand why believe those of us who do not worship your god should feel compelled to pound away with you.
I’ve not seen any indication form you at this point that you understand or appreciate the import of that example.
And I have not seen any indication from you that you understand that a false analogy does not demonstrate anything.
You’ve got a steady drum beat going here with your Composition Fallacies,
Translation: You just won’t accept “poof!” as an explanation. Yes, that is true. I won’t.Barry Arrington
May 13, 2015
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Axel: And guess what, Mr Sterling was a clergyman. Now what would he be doing in the sphere of science? Higher education in Scotland was limited in the early 18th century, primarily to medicine, law, and clerical studies; however, any graduate would be educated in a wide range of studies. As for engineering, Stirling was an engineer because he engineered, just as Darwin was a biologist because he did biological research.Zachriel
May 13, 2015
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E,
This is the hum-drum grind of a billion year march through a natural processes and feedback loops that drive evolution of all biological development, including brains and brain function.
“feedback loops” = intentionality, subjective self-awareness, perception of subject-object duality, qualia, and unity of consciousness. Sigh. And I bet you sneer at what you call the credulous blind leap-in-the dark faith of religious fundies. Computers have feedback loops. No computer has any of these qualities, or ever will. Computation is not consciousness; they are not even the same sort of things, much less the same thing.
Maybe a better way to answer your question (you’re certainly familiar with how evolutionary theory answers your question) is to just say that the intuition you have about an ontological incompatibility between “chemistry” and “reason” is not grounded, does not have any underlying warrant for that conclusion beyond being a “brute intuition”.
Sure we have a “brute intuition” if the phrase “brute intuition” means “absolutely certain knowledge of a self-evident fact that cannot be denied on pain of self-referential incoherence.” So, yes, we have no underlying warrant whatsoever for the conclusion that there is an ontological incompatibility between “chemistry” and “reason” unless one count’s our absolute certain knowledge.
the question remains a long and complicated path to recount, due to the enormous complexity of the brain, and the vast time periods involved in iterating over prototypes
Yeah, yeah. Deep time, chance and selection are omnipotent. Keep the faith.Barry Arrington
May 13, 2015
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Is E saying that if a rib eye steak were structured just a little differently it would be conscious? Well, yes, that is kind of the gist of it. Since we have no knowledge how a designer might/ did design consciousness in an immaterial entity ,what theoretically would stop an unknown designer from doing the same in a material entity?velikovskys
May 13, 2015
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@Barry,
Now, to his credit, I am sure E will be the first to admit that not all kinds of meat have this capacity.
I understand your choice of "meat" for its rhetorical value in the title, etc, but here you are taking your metaphor too seriously. "Meat" is flesh -- mucscle and fat of an animal. Brain matter is "animal stuff" so close enough for your rhetorical needs, but the structure of the brain is not all like that of the structure of flesh -- muscle or fat. There is no kind of meat --as meat -- that has cognitive capabilities. Mental activity in humans obtains in a neural network -- this is the difference that makes all the difference: structure matters.
Indeed, brain meat is the only kind of meat that we know of that does. And what is the difference between brain meat and other kinds of meat that accounts for this difference? It is all a matter of how the meat is arranged. “Structure matters,” E observes pedantically.
Unfortunately, it's not a pedantic exercise to point this out. This is a fundamental conceptual problem that runs through your posts. The Composition Fallacy gets used over and over to reach erroneous conclusions that you maintain as key pillars of your argument (such as it is). Any fair reading of your recent posts on this would conclude that you really do think there is some necessary limitation to what atoms and molecules can do in terms of reifying consciousness, reasoning and abstract thinking (to name just three examples) based on the nature and characteristics of those constituent atoms/molecules. That is, you hold that structure cannot be sufficient, even in principle for diverse and profound phenomena we observe in particular configurations of atoms that are not manifest in the atoms themselves. This was the point of my Formaldehyde/Acetic Acid/Glucose example. I've not seen any indication form you at this point that you understand or appreciate the import of that example. Formaldehyde and Glucose are "structured just a little differently", and only structured differently -- they are made from the same elements in the same ratios, and yet, profound and easily demonstrable differences obtain between the three compounds (again, imagine Glucose in your body being "structured just a little differently" as formaldehyde in your body -- what's a little reconfiguration in structure going to matter? they're all just molecules made of C, H, and O, right?). You've got a steady drum beat going here with your Composition Fallacies, and those errors are central to your claims. That's not a pedantic picking of nits, but rather a simple realization of this blatant and prominent error that underwrites your basic thesis.
Wait just a minute. Is E saying that if a rib eye steak were structured just a little differently it would be conscious?
No. Look, as above, I get the rhetorical schtick you're going for with "meat", and that's fine as far as it goes. But you're now confusing your schtick for the underlying reality of physiology. Cow's flesh is not just radically different in its structure -- and that would be enough to establish my point here -- the raw materials are different. The brain is a mesh of synapses and neurons -- a very complicated electro-chemical machine with something like 100 billion neurons, discrete endpoints for activation of interconnections, producing a potential number of different interconnections that is finite, but practically uncountable. Moreover, due to the neuroplasticity of the brain, these connections are dynamic, meaning that the brain is not only structured with a level of granularity against which an equivalent mass of muscle (or fat) would not even show up in the scale, the brain continuously restructures itself in terms of those interconnections. So "structured a little differently" can only be used as an exercise in sarcasm or comical understatement. It's all just bosons and fermions at the most fundamental level, like all the other "stuff" we might examine, but the structural differences are enormous, and the capacities afforded by the brain's structure as opposed to those afforded by an equivalent mass of fat/muscle could not be more different.
Well, yes, that is kind of the gist of it. But where is the dividing line between non-conscious rib eye steak kinds of meat and conscious brain meat, you might ask. Well, here is where things get a little murky. But according to E, if we arrange the same stuff that rib eye steaks are made of (oxygen atoms, hydrogen atoms, carbon atoms, etc.) into a particularly complex configuration, at some point . . . wait for it . . . poof! you get meat that (has the illusion of) self-awareness, qualia, intentionality, and the perception of subject-object duality.
See my reply to Box. It's a long, slow, incremental, natural/mechanical process: everything that "poof" is not (that would be a magical term, part of the supernatural lexicon, yeah?) If you want to understand a billion years in development, billions of generations and uncountably many variations and different phenotypes all pushed through real world filters for survival and reproduction along the way, be my guest. One can only wonder what a "non-poof" process would look like, then. Perhaps the non-poof hypothesis would be God saying "Let there be light", and -- non-poof! -- there be light, or shaping man from the dust like so much clay on a potter's wheel... Words mean what we can agree that they mean, but that seems a pretty mixed up way to use the terms. The scientific theory on human development, including the development of human brains is anti-magical - natural, mechanistic, slow, incremental, and impersonal. It's peculiar that the very things many theists abhor about the evolutionary thesis are the aspects that are anti-magical. They avail of no agents, incantations, or supernatural forces, elements in the ontology of the worldview they embrace. But then, the same people turn around and accuse the ideas they abhor for their anti-magical properties of "magic". This is probably not so hard to to figure out -- Christians and other theists often bristle when their belief in magic is identified as such, and so "magic" becomes just a handy perjorative to use, and they do, whether it fits the situation or not.eigenstate
May 13, 2015
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I've just read Eigenstate's #15, and I'm sorry lads, but there's no way you're going to beat him into docility (in its original sense of 'teachability'). Who could ever have imagined bind chance would have produced such an endless production line of Lizas and Marks in a single century, never mind a few years. On the other hand... blind chance...?Axel
May 13, 2015
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It's only a hunch. I can't yet substantiate it, but I have a suspicion that blind chance might have been co-opted by the examination boards of the respective universities of our materialist friends to set their examination papers, and perhaps even mark their answers.Axel
May 13, 2015
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If reason is first and foremost dictated by matter—blind, unintelligent, without overview and uninterested in matters of truth, logic and coherence—then what is reason?
I don't know what "dictated by matter" means as you use it here. Matter, in the form of a brain, would be doing the dictating, where dictating was happening. But that doesn't connect with your following question (what is reason?). If you just mean that if mental processes -- human thought and cognition -- is a wholly natural process, then I can see a connection. In any case, "reason", on a materialist view, is a description of activities of the brain that draws conclusions from other available information in the brain.
How can it possibly work? How can it be trusted?
The brain is not a computer, at least in the conventional sense, but as a matter of pedagogy, we can look at developed models and implementations of reasoning in computing contexts to understand how natural, (more) mechanical processes can work on such tasks.
IOW how does one get from chemistry to reason?
At length! The brain is the most complicated structure we know of in nature, and by far. Like the other examples of complex and structured behavior we observe in nature, the processes we identify as available and capable of producing them are slow, undirected, and step-wise incremental. That means you have something much more primitive long ago -- hundreds of millions of years, perhaps -- that is a precursor, but maybe not much more than a brain stem. I'll pass on recapitulating 500 million years of evolutionary development in a comment on a post at UD, but the "how" you are asking about is the "how" I'm sure you'd expect -- unthinkably large number of iterations over a process that has feedback loops that accumulate and preserve increased capabilities. Preserved because those capabilities tend to enable the animals the brains belong to survive and reproduce in greater numbers than those that don't. Brain power as an index to fecundity, one might say. But there's no "sublimation" contemplated, here, no "finger of God" endowing man with "reason" or the imago dei. This is the hum-drum grind of a billion year march through a natural processes and feedback loops that drive evolution of all biological development, including brains and brain function. Maybe a better way to answer your question (you're certainly familiar with how evolutionary theory answers your question) is to just say that the intuition you have about an ontological incompatibility between "chemistry" and "reason" is not grounded, does not have any underlying warrant for that conclusion beyond being a "brute intuition". If you consider that possibility, then as soon as you've done that, the question remains a long and complicated path to recount, due to the enormous complexity of the brain, and the vast time periods involved in iterating over prototypes needed to get to where we are today, but it's not a conceptual non-starter, as you might think it is if you are considering such a "brute intuition" as authoritative.eigenstate
May 13, 2015
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Sorry, again, my #6 is meant to be addressed to you, BA77. Somehow I seem to have deleted your name. I want to link an article concerning the manufacture of a very much more effective means of solar heating, base on an 18th century invention by a Scot called Stirling - currently only used on submarines, I believe. And guess what, Mr Sterling was a clergyman. Now what would he be doing in the sphere of science? Anyway, I might as well give the link her, in case anyone is interested: http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/may/13/could-this-be-the-worlds-most-efficient-solar-electricity-systemAxel
May 13, 2015
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Is E saying that if a rib eye steak were structured just a little differently it would be conscious? Eat more brain.Mung
May 13, 2015
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Zachriel (4) excellent link! Made my day.bFast
May 13, 2015
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WJM, 5: I think matter can indeed be in a configuration that computes a given result on an input. That that o/p makes sense, or that there is actual rational contemplation involved, is another matter. And don't even traipse on responsible freedom. Evolutionary materialism is trying to get North by insistently heading due west. Spock's "that does not COMPUTE" was wrong-headed. KFkairosfocus
May 13, 2015
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William J Murray #5, and we go along with it! This results in a weird dynamics during any debate. Like you said : the materialist only has to uphold the mere possibility of his position in order to win. Consequently our side can only win by proving that materialism cannot be right in every possible world. Somehow we have moved far beyond the point when it was sufficient to argue that certain things are highly unlikely and unreasonable.Box
May 13, 2015
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Sorry to intrude, but could you tell me how I can find your latest miscellaneous thread? Thank you.Axel
May 13, 2015
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Here is empirical support for the contention that the two hemispheres of the brian are quantumly, instantaneously, connected:
,,, zero time lag neuronal synchrony despite long conduction delays - 2008 Excerpt: Multielectrode recordings have revealed zero time lag synchronization among remote cerebral cortical areas. However, the axonal conduction delays among such distant regions can amount to several tens of milliseconds. It is still unclear which mechanism is giving rise to isochronous discharge of widely distributed neurons, despite such latencies,,, Remarkably, synchrony of neuronal activity is not limited to short-range interactions within a cortical patch. Interareal synchronization across cortical regions including interhemispheric areas has been observed in several tasks (7, 9, 11–14).,,, Beyond its functional relevance, the zero time lag synchrony among such distant neuronal ensembles must be established by mechanisms that are able to compensate for the delays involved in the neuronal communication. Latencies in conducting nerve impulses down axonal processes can amount to delays of several tens of milliseconds between the generation of a spike in a presynaptic cell and the elicitation of a postsynaptic potential (16). The question is how, despite such temporal delays, the reciprocal interactions between two brain regions can lead to the associated neural populations to fire in unison (i.e. zero time lag).,,, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2575223/
The following paper appeals to a ‘non-local’, (i.e. beyond space and time), cause to try to explain the zero lag synchronization in remote neural circuits,,,
Nonlocal mechanism for cluster synchronization in neural circuits – 2011 Excerpt: The findings,,, call for reexamining sources of correlated activity in cortex,,, http://arxiv.org/abs/1103.3634
Of related interest, people born without a link between the two halves of the brain still show remarkably normal communication between the two halves of their brains
Bridging the Gap - October 2011 Excerpt: Like a bridge that spans a river to connect two major metropolises, the corpus callosum is the main conduit for information flowing between the left and right hemispheres of our brains. Now, neuroscientists at the California Institute of Technology (Caltech) have found that people who are born without that link—a condition called agenesis of the corpus callosum, or AgCC—still show remarkably normal communication across the gap between the two halves of their brains. http://media.caltech.edu/press_releases/13465 The Case for the Soul: Refuting Physicalist Objections - video Computers vs. Qualia, Libet and 'Free won't', Split Brain (unified attention of brain despite split hemispheres, visual and motion information is shared between the two hemispheres despite the hemispheres being split), https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GB5TNrtu9Pk
Of philosophical note: Although I very much enjoyed the feisty, “Galileo”, way in which Stuart Hameroff defended his model against the “atheists’ inquisition”, I hold that Hameroff’s model falls short of finding complete agreement with quantum mechanics, and thus I find his model falls short of truly explaining consciousness. The primary reason why I think Hameroff's model falls short of finding complete agreement with quantum theory is primarily because of his pantheistic metaphysical view of reality. A metaphysical view of reality in which consciousness, for him, is somehow, if I read him right, co-terminus with the space-time of material reality at the Planck scale. Something he calls ‘proto-consciousness’ at the fine (Planck) scale.
Discovery of quantum vibrations in ‘microtubules’ corroborates theory of consciousness – Thursday, January 16, 2014 Excerpt: Did consciousness evolve from complex computations among brain neurons, as most scientists assert? Or has consciousness, in some sense, been here all along, as spiritual approaches maintain?” ask Hameroff and Penrose in the current review. “This opens a potential Pandora’s Box, but our theory accommodates both these views, suggesting consciousness derives from quantum vibrations in microtubules, protein polymers inside brain neurons, which both govern neuronal and synaptic function, and connect brain processes to self-organizing processes in the fine scale, ‘proto-conscious’ quantum structure of reality.” http://esciencenews.com/articles/2014/01/16/discovery.quantum.vibrations.microtubules.corroborates.theory.consciousness
But contrary to Hameroff’s Pantheistic metaphysics in which consciousness is, if I read him right, a part of material reality at the Planck scale, the fact of the matter is that several lines of evidence from quantum mechanics now confirm what we have intuitively known all along. Mainly, empirical evidence now confirms the ‘intuitive' fact that consciousness demands a perspective that stands completely outside the material order, even outside Hameroff's fine (Planck) structure of the universe. Specifically, advances in quantum mechanics have now allowed us to formulate the argument for God from consciousness like this:
A Short Survey Of Quantum Mechanics and Consciousness Excerpt: 1. Consciousness either preceded all of material reality or is a ‘epi-phenomena’ of material reality. 2. If consciousness is a ‘epi-phenomena’ of material reality then consciousness will be found to have no special position within material reality. Whereas conversely, if consciousness precedes material reality then consciousness will be found to have a special position within material reality. 3. Consciousness is found to have a special, even central, position within material reality. 4. Therefore, consciousness is found to precede material reality. Four intersecting lines of experimental evidence from quantum mechanics that shows that consciousness precedes material reality (Wigner’s Quantum Symmetries, Wheeler’s Delayed Choice, Leggett’s Inequalities, Quantum Zeno effect) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uLcJUgLm1vwFyjwcbwuYP0bK6k8mXy-of990HudzduI/edit
Verse and Music:
Colossians 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. Radioactive - Lindsey Stirling - music https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE2GCa-_nyU
bornagain77
May 13, 2015
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A few notes as to consciousness and brain. Penrose/Hameroff's infamous Orch-Or model for quantum consciousness,
Stuart Hameroff defends Orch-OR theory at TSC 2010 – Pt 1 of 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAVQjMf2fEQ Part 2 of 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ed9nZXrOaMk Quantum Cognition and Brain Microtubules - Hameroff - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mm6Mt9BoZ_M
a model which was was harshly criticized, especially by atheists, from its inception, has preliminary confirmation from the first direct test for it. In a fascinating new study, the chemical anesthetic 1-azidoanthracine was administered to tadpoles and found to work by disrupting microtubules in the nervous system. A second chemical which repaired the microtubules was found to restore consciousness.
Direct modulation of microtubule stability contributes to anthracene general anesthesia. - 2013 Excerpt: Recently, we identified 1-aminoanthracene as a fluorescent general anesthetic. To investigate the mechanism of action, a photoactive analogue, 1-azidoanthracene, was synthesized. Administration of 1-azidoanthracene to albino stage 40-47 tadpoles was found to immobilize animals upon near-UV irradiation of the forebrain region. The immobilization was often reversible, but it was characterized by a longer duration consistent with covalent attachment of the ligand to functionally important targets.,,, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23484901
And further empirical confirmation was found here:
New Study Favors Quantum Mind - Quantum coherence in brain protein resembles plant photosynthesis - 18-Sep-2014 Excerpt: Photosynthesis, the ubiquitous and essential mechanism by which plants produce food from sunlight, has been shown since 2006 to routinely utilize quantum coherence (quantum coherent superposition) at warm temperatures.,,, Back in the brain, microtubules are components of the cytoskeleton inside neurons, cylindrical lattice polymers of the protein ‘tubulin’.,,, now it appears quantum mechanisms eerily similar to those in photosynthesis may operate in tubulins within microtubules. In an article published September 17,, a team of scientists,, used computer simulation and theoretical quantum biophysics to analyze quantum coherence among tryptophan pi resonance rings in tubulin, the component protein in microtubules.,,, (They) mapped locations of the tryptophan pi electron resonance clouds in tubulin, and found them analogous to (the quantum coherent superposition of) chromophores in photosynthesis proteins.,,, Along with recent evidence for coherent megahertz vibrations in microtubules, and that anesthetics act to erase consciousness via microtubules, quantum brain biology will become increasingly important.,, http://www.newswise.com/articles/new-study-favors-quantum-mind#.VBusnOKcVcM.google_plusone_share
I was very happy to see Hameroff's model to be empirically vindicated. Especially since he has steadfastly resisted materialistic dogmatism. Even going into to lion's den, as it were, to defend his, and Penrose's, model:
Being the skunk at an atheist convention – Hameroff – 2006 Excerpt: In November 2006 I was invited to a meeting at the Salk Institute in La Jolla, California called “Beyond Belief”. Other speakers and attendees were predominantly atheists, and harshly critical of the notion of spirituality. They included Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Patricia Churchland, Steven Weinberg (the least venal), Neil deGrasse Tyson and others who collectively vilified creationists and religious warriors. But the speakers also ragged on the notion of any purpose or meaning to existence, heaped ridicule on the very possibility of a God-like entity (and those who believed in such an entity), declared that scientists and philosophers should set society’s moral and ethical standards, and called for a billion dollar public relations campaign to convince the public God does not exist. Near the end of the first day came my turn to speak. I began by saying that the conference to that point had been like the Spanish Inquisition in reverse - the scientists were burning the believers. And while I had no particular interest in organized religion, I did believe there could be a scientific account for spirituality. After pointing out faulty assumptions in conventional brain models for consciousness and summarizing the Penrose-Hameroff theory, I laid out my plausibility argument for scientific, secular spirituality, suggesting cosmic connections and influence in our conscious thoughts occurred via quantum interactions in microtubules. I closed with a slide of the DNA molecule which emphasized it’s internal core where quantum effects rule, suggesting a Penrose non-computable influence in genetic mutations and evolution (aimed at Dawkins in the form of a quantum-based intelligent design). At the end a few people clapped loudly, but most sat in steely silence.,,, http://quantum.webhost.uits.arizona.edu/prod/content/being-skunk-atheist-convention
In this following video, Stuart Hameroff speaks of the two hemispheres of the brain being ‘quantumly’, i.e. instantaneously, connected:
Quantum Entangled Consciousness (Permanence of Quantum Information) - Life After Death - Stuart Hameroff - video https://vimeo.com/39982578
bornagain77
May 13, 2015
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