A Case of Bad Timing

_{Barry Arrington

January 14, 2022

Intelligent Design}

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WARNING! The video linked here is extremely disturbing.

Four days ago Alexis Avila, a woman in New Mexico, had a baby. She put the baby in a garbage bag and threw him in a dumpster. She is being charged with attempted murder. The good news is that a passerby found the baby (umbilical cord still attached) still alive and called 911. The medics were able to save his life.

Ms. Avila could have gone to an abortionist a couple of hours earlier and had her baby chopped into pieces in utero. The abortionist could have then removed the pieces, put them in the same garbage bag and thrown it in the same dumpster. In that case, Ms. Avila would have committed no crime. Indeed, pro-abortion radicals would be applauding her “brave” decision to exercise her constitutional “right” to kill her baby in her womb.

Same woman, same baby, same garbage bag, same dumpster. Two hours difference would have resulted in a radically different legal outcome for Ms. Avila. American abortion law is insane and morally grotesque.

Comments

JVL, I am aware that other religions recognize the golden rule. (it is implicit in our God given moral intuition, so I expect it to be recognized by other religions, and I even expect it to be recognized by atheists such as yourself). I am also aware that your atheistic Darwinian worldview provides no basis whatsoever for any sort of objective morality. You do understand that simple point do you not? (I mean really, you are constantly harping on how much smarter you are than we ID advocates) i.e. In order for you to 'moralize' to Barry, you, as an atheist, are forced to 'steal' from some other religion, be it Christianity or whatever, since you cannot 'moralize' from within your own atheistic worldview of Darwinian evolution.
“In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won’t find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.” – Richard Dawkins, River Out of Eden: A Darwinian View of Life THE REVENGE OF CONSCIENCE by J. Budziszewski - June 1998 Excerpt: The pattern is repeated in the house of death. First we were to approve of killing unborn babies, then babies in process of birth; next came newborns with physical defects, now newborns in perfect health. Nobel-prize laureate James Watson proposes that parents of newborns be granted a grace period during which they may have their babies killed, and in 1994 a committee of the American Medical Association proposed harvesting organs from some sick babies even before they die. First we were to approve of suicide, then to approve of assisting it. Now we are to approve of a requirement to assist it, for, as Ernest van den Haag has argued, it is “unwarranted” for doctors not to kill patients who seek death. First we were to approve of killing the sick and unconscious, then of killing the conscious and consenting. Now we are to approve of killing the conscious and protesting, for in the United States, doctors starved and dehydrated stroke patient Marjorie Nighbert to death despite her pleading “I’m hungry,” “I’m thirsty,” “Please feed me,” and “I want food.” Such cases are only to be expected when food and water are now often classified as optional treatments rather than humane care; we have not long to go before joining the Netherlands, where involuntary euthanasia is common. https://www.firstthings.com/article/1998/06/the-revenge-of-conscience
bornagain77_{January 15, 2022
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JVL
I have apologised.
Please point out where you did that. I must have missed it.Barry Arrington_{January 15, 2022
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Barry Arrington: You implicitly accused me of lying in the OP and when you are called on it, you retreat to “I couldn’t be bothered to do 30 seconds of research.” Not at all. It wasn't clear from what you published (video aside) if the pregnancy was full term so I checked out a couple of news stories which seemed to imply it was. Then I made the mistake, for which I have owned up to, of assuming that no state in the US sanctioned full-term abortions. I have acknowledged my mistake. I still find it amazing that New Mexico does sanction such abortions. I would have a hard time endorsing such a policy. You are morally culpable, and I pointed it out. It matters little that you are morally culpable in one way instead of another. Instead of apologizing, you attack the messenger and call him “hateful,” “vicious,” and “nasty.” Because of the style you choose to use and the terms you choose to use. JVL, getting called on morally abhorrent behavior is painful, and you seem to be smarting. Nope, I'm good. I made a mistake and I admitted it as soon as it was pointed out to me. Nevertheless, the correct response is not to stamp your feet like a petulant child and attack the person who called you out. The correct response is to apologize and pledge to do better. I'm not the one who used the phrase "you feel compelled to spew lies in order to prop up your wretched belief that it should be lawful to kill babies in their mother’s womb." which is disrespectful and uses quite divisive language. I have apologised. I will try hard not to make assumptions in the future but as I am a fallible human being I invite you to point out my mistakes in the future.JVL_{January 15, 2022
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Bornagain77: You just got to love it when Darwinists, who have no moral basis whatsoever, shamelessly steal from Christian ethics . . . From Wikipedia (as Barry says, it took me seconds to find this):
The Golden Rule is the principle of treating others as one wants to be treated. It is a maxim that is found in most religions and cultures.[1] It can be considered an ethic of reciprocity in some religions, although different religions treat it differently. . . . . The idea dates at least to the early Confucian times (551–479 BCE), according to Rushworth Kidder, who identifies the concept appearing prominently in Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Taoism, Zoroastrianism, and "the rest of the world's major religions". 143 leaders of the world's major faiths endorsed the Golden Rule as part of the 1993 "Declaration Toward a Global Ethic". According to Greg M. Epstein, it is "a concept that essentially no religion misses entirely", but belief in God is not necessary to endorse it. Simon Blackburn also states that the Golden Rule can be "found in some form in almost every ethical tradition".
JVL_{January 15, 2022
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Seversky
Do we know why the mother was so panicked by the birth that she felt compelled to dispose of the child in the dumpster?
You ask that question as if the answer would make a difference. Are we supposed to say, "Oh, she had a traumatic experience, so let's give her a pass for putting a baby in a garbage bag and throwing him in a dumpster"? BTW Sev. Chuck dodged this question so I will ask you. Is it objectively evil to put a baby in a garbage bag and throw him in a dumpster or is it just your subjective preference not to do so? And if it is the latter, why should we care what your subjective preference is?Barry Arrington_{January 15, 2022
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JVL at 15. It took me literally 30 seconds to find those two sources of information. You implicitly accused me of lying in the OP and when you are called on it, you retreat to "I couldn't be bothered to do 30 seconds of research." You are morally culpable, and I pointed it out. It matters little that you are morally culpable in one way instead of another. Instead of apologizing, you attack the messenger and call him "hateful," "vicious," and "nasty." JVL, getting called on morally abhorrent behavior is painful, and you seem to be smarting. Nevertheless, the correct response is not to stamp your feet like a petulant child and attack the person who called you out. The correct response is to apologize and pledge to do better. Barry Arrington_{January 15, 2022
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Chuck:
My cognitively dissonant brain is still waiting for an explanation as to how the OP is relevant to intelligent design.
This was explained. Chuck continues to harp on it. Ironically, in the very comment in which Chuck mocks my comment about cognitive dissonance, he manifests that very thing by steadfastly refusing to acknowledge the issues on the table. It would be amusing if it were not so tragic.Barry Arrington_{January 15, 2022
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My cognitively dissonant brain is still waiting for an explanation as to how the OP is relevant to intelligent design
P - world was designed Q - abortion is against objective of designer We have four possibilities 1) Believe in p, then highly likely believe in q 2) Believe in p, then highly unlikely believe in not q 3) Believe in p, then not sure about q - estimate a small percentage. 4) Believe in not p, then cannot believe in q If one is in fourth situation then abortion is meaningless except for local social pressure or individual feelings on life. Not a logical conclusion but an emotional one. So belief in ID and abortion is morally wrong are highly correlated logically. This is a tentative framework that helps explain relevance. Now to get to P which leads to accepting Q requires emphasis on demonstrating P. ID does a great job of that. So why the objection to the implications of ID or in other words the implications of P. I personally believe that what this does is give reasons for some to say what precedes belief in ID is belief in religion and then say religion is what’s behind ID. This is the monotonous mantra of ChuckDarwin. As opposed to the demonstration of ID first is what leads to religion. It’s a near absolute then that belief in ID is highly associated with religion. It has zero to say what specific religion. Will this stop ChuckDarwin’s phony complaints? I doubt it since he seem impervious to logic as is nearly every anti-ID person. Which is the most ironic finding of the so called believers in evidence and logic. They must abandon logic and evidence to get to their beliefs.jerry_{January 15, 2022
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^^^^ "There are none so blind as those who will not see"
"There are none so blind as those who will not see" has been traced back to John Heywood in 1546. It resembles the Biblical verse of Jeremiah 5:21 which is as follows, ‘Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not’. https://quizzclub.com/trivia/who-wrote-the-proverb-there-are-none-so-blind-as-those-who-will-not-see/answer/439985/
bornagain77_{January 15, 2022
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Barry Arrington @9 My cognitively dissonant brain is still waiting for an explanation as to how the OP is relevant to intelligent design...chuckdarwin_{January 15, 2022
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JVL states to Mr. Arrington, "You seem to harbour a lot of hate towards some of your fellow human beings; the same kind of hate you ascribe to me,,, May I suggest you start by being less vicious and nasty in your style of communicating." Are you really appealing to the golden rule JVL?
Matthew 7:12 “So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.”
You just got to love it when Darwinists, who have no moral basis whatsoever, shamelessly steal from Christian ethics in order to try to lecture Christians on how we ought to behave towards Darwinists and their murderous 'death as creator' ideology. (which has inflicted unimaginable horror on humanity)
"In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.” - Richard Dawkins, River Out of Eden: A Darwinian View of Life How Has Darwinism Negatively Impacted Society? John G. West - January 11, 2022 Excerpt: Death as the Creator A third big idea fueled by Darwin’s theory is that the engine of progress in the history of life is mass death. Instead of believing that the remarkable features of humans and other living things reflect the intelligent design of a master artist, Darwin portrayed death and destruction as our ultimate creator. As he wrote at the end of his most famous work: “Thus, from the war of nature, from famine and death, the most exalted object which we are capable of conceiving, namely, the production of the higher animals, directly follows.” https://evolutionnews.org/2022/01/how-has-darwinism-negatively-impacted-society/
Again, Darwin stated, "“Thus, from the war of nature, from famine and death, the most exalted object which we are capable of conceiving, namely, the production of the higher animals, directly follows.” And in unison Hitler, Mao, and Stalin all said amen.
Chairman MAO: Genocide Master (Black Book of Communism) “…Many scholars and commentators have referenced my total of 174,000,000 for the democide (genocide and mass murder) of the last century. I’m now trying to get word out that I’ve had to make a major revision in my total due to two books. I’m now convinced that Stalin exceeded Hitler in monstrous evil, and Mao beat out Stalin….” http://wadias.in/site/arzan/blog/chairman-mao-genocide-master/ Hitler, Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Mao – quotes - Foundational Darwinian influence in their political ideologies = July 2020 https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/michael-egnor-on-the-relationship-between-darwinism-and-totalitarianism/#comment-707831
Verse:
John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
bornagain77_{January 15, 2022
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Seversky claims, "Atheistic materialists recognize that the baby has inestimable value",,, How so exactly? Under Atheistic materialism the ’resale’ value of all the material constituents of your body is about one dollar?
How much is my body worth? Excerpt: The U.S. Bureau of Chemistry and Soils invested many a hard-earned tax dollar in calculating the chemical and mineral composition of the human body,,,, Together, all of the above (chemicals and minerals) amounts to less than one dollar! http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/2001-01/979621502.Bc.r.html
Materially speaking, there simply is nothing within your material body that should inherently give it "inestimable value". In fact, Jesus said that that the inherent thing that gives a human person "inestimable value" is their eternal, immaterial, soul which was created by God, (and which gives their material body life, and which is capable living beyond the death of his material body.)
Mark 8:36-37 What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?
And again in the Old Testament we find that "the redemption of his soul is priceless"
Psalm 49:7-9 No one can by any means redeem another Or give God a ransom for him— For the redemption of his soul is priceless, And he should cease imagining forever— That he might live on eternally, That he might not undergo decay.
Yet atheistic materialists resolutely deny the existence of the eternal, immaterial, soul which was created by God and which gives the material body life, and which is capable of living beyond the death of our material bodies. Which is to say that atheistic materialists hold that we are purely physical/material beings and that we die when our material body die, and that there is no transcendent and/or immaterial component to our being that is capable of living beyond the death of our material bodies. The late William Provine made this resolute denial of the eternal soul by atheistic materialists explicitly clear,
"When you die, you’re not going to be surprised, because you’re going to be completely dead. Now if I find myself aware after I’m dead, I’m going to be really surprised! But at least I’m going to go to hell, where I won’t have all of those grinning preachers from Sunday morning listening. Let me summarize my views on what modern evolutionary biology tells us loud and clear — and these are basically Darwin’s views. There are no gods, no purposes, and no goal-directed forces of any kind. There is no life after death. When I die, I am absolutely certain that I am going to be dead. That’s the end of me. There is no ultimate foundation for ethics, no ultimate meaning in life, and no free will for humans, either. What an unintelligible idea." - William Provine - the (late) Charles A. Alexander Professor of Biological Sciences at Cornell University https://evolutionnews.org/2015/09/william_provine/
Thank God atheistic materialists are now shown, by advances in empirical science no less, to be completely and utterly wrong in their materialistic beliefs. Specifically, advances in quantum biology have now proven that we have a 'eternal, immaterial,' component to our being that is not reducible to materialistic explanations, and which is 'potentially' capable of living beyond the death of our material bodies. Even more specifically, quantum information is now found to be ubiquitous within living organisms. As the following paper explains, “Most of the molecules taking part actively in biochemical processes are tuned exactly to the transition point and are (quantum) critical conductors,” and adds, “the possibility of finding even one (biomolecule) that is in the quantum critical state by accident is mind-bogglingly small and, to all intents and purposes, impossible.,, of the order of 10^-50 of possible small biomolecules and even less for proteins,”,,,
Quantum criticality in a wide range of important biomolecules – Mar. 6, 2015 Excerpt: “Most of the molecules taking part actively in biochemical processes are tuned exactly to the transition point and are critical conductors,” they say. That’s a discovery that is as important as it is unexpected. “These findings suggest an entirely new and universal mechanism of conductance in biology very different from the one used in electrical circuits.” The permutations of possible energy levels of biomolecules is huge so the possibility of finding even one (biomolecule) that is in the quantum critical state by accident is mind-bogglingly small and, to all intents and purposes, impossible.,, of the order of 10^-50 of possible small biomolecules and even less for proteins,”,,, “what exactly is the advantage that criticality confers?” https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/the-origin-of-life-and-the-hidden-role-of-quantum-criticality-ca4707924552
Darwinists simply have no earthly clue why quantum information should be found to be ubiquitous within life. As the following follow up article stated, “There is no obvious evolutionary reason why a protein should evolve toward a quantum-critical state, and there is no chance at all that the state could occur randomly.,,,”
Quantum Critical Proteins – Stuart Lindsay – Professor of Physics and Chemistry at Arizona State University – 2018 Excerpt: The difficulty with this proposal lies in its improbability. Only an infinitesimal density of random states exists near the critical point.,, Gábor Vattay et al. recently examined a number of proteins and conducting and insulating polymers.14 The distribution for the insulators and conductors were as expected, but the functional proteins all fell on the quantum-critical distribution. Such a result cannot be a consequence of chance.,,, WHAT OF quantum criticality? Vattay et al. carried out electronic structure calculations for the very large protein used in our work. They found that the distribution of energy-level spacings fell on exactly the quantum-critical distribution, implying that this protein is also quantum critical. There is no obvious evolutionary reason why a protein should evolve toward a quantum-critical state, and there is no chance at all that the state could occur randomly.,,, http://inference-review.com/article/quantum-critical-proteins Gábor Vattay et al., “Quantum Criticality at the Origin of Life,” Journal of Physics: Conference Series 626 (2015);
Even DNA is now shown to be, basically, quantum information with classical information embedded within it. As Dr Rieper notes at 24:00 minute mark of the following video, practically the whole DNA molecule can be viewed as quantum information with classical information embedded within it.
“What happens is this classical information (of DNA) is embedded, sandwiched, into the quantum information (of DNA). And most likely this classical information is never accessed because it is inside all the quantum information. You can only access the quantum information or the electron clouds and the protons. So mathematically you can describe that as a quantum/classical state.” Elisabeth Rieper – Classical and Quantum Information in DNA – video (Longitudinal Quantum Information resides along the entire length of DNA discussed at the 19:30 minute mark; at 24:00 minute mark Dr Rieper remarks that practically the whole DNA molecule can be viewed as quantum information with classical information embedded within it) https://youtu.be/2nqHOnVTxJE?t=1176
The interesting thing about finding quantum information to be ubiquitous within living organisms is that quantum information, like quantum entanglement itself, requires a ‘non-local’, i.e. beyond space and time, cause in order to explain it. As the following article noted, “Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them,”
Looking beyond space and time to cope with quantum theory – 29 October 2012 Excerpt: “Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them,” http://www.quantumlah.org/highlight/121029_hidden_influences.php
Darwinists, with their reductive materialistic framework, and especially with the falsification of ‘hidden variables’, simply have no beyond space and time cause that they can appeal so as to be able to explain the non-local quantum coherence and/or entanglement that is now found to be ubiquitous within biology.
“hidden variables don’t exist. If you have proved them come back with PROOF and a Nobel Prize. John Bell theorized that maybe the particles can signal faster than the speed of light. This is what he advocated in his interview in “The Ghost in the Atom.” But the violation of Leggett’s inequality in 2007 takes away that possibility and rules out all non-local hidden variables. Observation instantly defines what properties a particle has and if you assume they had properties before we measured them, then you need evidence, because right now there is none which is why realism is dead, and materialism dies with it. How does the particle know what we are going to pick so it can conform to that?” per Jimfit https://uncommondescent.com/philosophy/quantum-physicist-david-bohm-on-why-there-cannot-be-a-theory-of-everything/#comment-662358
Christians, on the other hand, readily do have a beyond space and time cause that they can appeal to so as to explain ‘non-local’ quantum entanglement in life (and elsewhere). (And have been postulating just such a 'non-local' cause for thousands of years.)
Colossians 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. Psalms 139:13-14 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.
Moreover, it is also important to realize that quantum information is conserved. As the following article states, “In the classical world, information can be copied and deleted at will. In the quantum world, however, the conservation of quantum information means that information cannot be created nor destroyed.”
Quantum no-hiding theorem experimentally confirmed for first time – 2011 Excerpt: In the classical world, information can be copied and deleted at will. In the quantum world, however, the conservation of quantum information means that information cannot be created nor destroyed. This concept stems from two fundamental theorems of quantum mechanics: the no-cloning theorem and the no-deleting theorem. A third and related theorem, called the no-hiding theorem, addresses information loss in the quantum world. According to the no-hiding theorem, if information is missing from one system (which may happen when the system interacts with the environment), then the information is simply residing somewhere else in the Universe; in other words, the missing information cannot be hidden in the correlations between a system and its environment. http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-03-quantum-no-hiding-theorem-experimentally.html
The implication of finding ‘non-local’, beyond space and time, and ‘conserved’, quantum information in molecular biology on such a massive scale, in every important biomolecule in our bodies, is fairly, and pleasantly, obvious. That pleasant implication, of course, being the fact that we now have very strong empirical evidence suggesting that we do indeed have an eternal, immaterial, soul that is capable of living beyond the death of our material bodies. As Stuart Hameroff states in the following article, “the quantum information,,, isn’t destroyed. It can’t be destroyed.,,, it’s possible that this quantum information can exist outside the body. Perhaps indefinitely as a soul.”
Leading Scientists Say Consciousness Cannot Die It Goes Back To The Universe – Oct. 19, 2017 – Spiritual Excerpt: “Let’s say the heart stops beating. The blood stops flowing. The microtubules lose their quantum state. But the quantum information, which is in the microtubules, isn’t destroyed. It can’t be destroyed. It just distributes and dissipates to the universe at large. If a patient is resuscitated, revived, this quantum information can go back into the microtubules and the patient says, “I had a near death experience. I saw a white light. I saw a tunnel. I saw my dead relatives.,,” Now if they’re not revived and the patient dies, then it’s possible that this quantum information can exist outside the body. Perhaps indefinitely as a soul.” – Stuart Hameroff – Quantum Entangled Consciousness – Life After Death – video (5:00 minute mark) per radaronline
Personally, I consider these recent findings from quantum biology to rival all other scientific discoveries over the past century. Surpassing even the discovery of a beginning of the universe, via Big Bang cosmology, in terms of scientific, theological, and even personal, significance. To repeat what I stated at the beginning of this post, as Jesus once asked his disciples along with a crowd of followers, “Is anything worth more than your soul?”
Mark 8:37 Is anything worth more than your soul?
bornagain77_{January 15, 2022
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JVL You seem to harbour a lot of hate towards some of your fellow human beings
To hate is one thing but to kill innocent vulnerable defenseless babies is another thing. People who are already born are in favor of killing those who have not yet been born and after that THEY are upset for the sane people reaction? Insanity alert.Lieutenant Commander Data_{January 15, 2022
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Barry Arrington: You are a liar. It was an error on my part; I do not live in the US (anymore) and hadn't realised that any state allowed abortions up to full term. I stand corrected. It is sad that you feel compelled to spew lies in order to prop up your wretched belief that it should be lawful to kill babies in their mother’s womb. You seem to harbour a lot of hate towards some of your fellow human beings; the same kind of hate you ascribe to me, someone who has no say about the laws in New Mexico or the US. You, on the other hand, have a lot of 'skin in the game' and I encourage you to use the existing laws and conventions to influence your fellow citizens to change that which you find deplorable. May I suggest you start by being less vicious and nasty in your style of communicating. I rather doubt that kind of approach works well in a court of law.JVL_{January 15, 2022
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Eugene To keep it simple: humans are as disposable as animals. Both have been made using the same 3D self-replicating “technology”. Both are orders of magnitude dumber than the Creator who made them.
True. Humans clearly observe that there is a range of increasing intelligence from inferior animals to humans but somehow they think this range of intelligence finish with them and they are the peak of intelligence. Why some people believe something like that ?
Guess what, God made it so that those other humans have less empathy (or for the 4% of humans they have no empathy at all!).
Wrong. It's about free choice and knowingly broking moral law(called sin). When somebody broke moral law his conscience acuity do not remain in the same ( initial )state/position . Your choices to do /not to do a moral act change your moral acuity.Lieutenant Commander Data_{January 15, 2022
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To keep it simple: humans are as disposable as animals. Both have been made using the same 3D self-replicating “technology”. Both are orders of magnitude dumber than the Creator who made them. Still, the Creator made humans smarter than animals, the Creator also gave most (but not all!) humans a deep sense of empathy. Here we have humans who have a lot of built in empathy complaining that all those other humans are somehow less human or they don’t follow God. Guess what, God made it so that those other humans have less empathy (or for the 4% of humans they have no empathy at all!). Killing babies (or other humans in general) is morally wrong only for those humans who have a lot of built in empathy. This does not apply to 100% of humanity. Such is God’s plan for our world.Eugene_{January 14, 2022
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Seversky, precisely, the inference that moral values are in effect accidents of conditioning and that there are no objective moral truths is driven by a priori evolutionary materialism and/or accommodation to it, not by the rhetorical distractor of diversity of views among an error prone race. So, if a certain community in Germany c 1933 on decides Poles, Jews, Russians, Gypsies etc are inferior life unworthy of life it is merely a matter of who wins the war not right to life. There was no higher built in law for the Nuremberg Courts to appeal to, it was all a matter of who wins subjects who loses to show trials then executes them as they please never mind all that stuff about evidence and justice. Thanks for letting us know and thanks for letting us know the internet atheist anti Bible and anti God talk points are little more than emotional manipulation. KF PS, do you have rights that demand justice, starting with life?kairosfocus_{January 14, 2022
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Barry Arrington/9
Wrong. The atheistic materialism that lies at the foundation of Darwinian evolution entails that the baby is just a tiny hairless ape with no more inherent value than a rock. We all know that is objectively false.
Atheistic materialists recognize that the baby has inestimable value to its kin and to most of the rest of the community of hairless apes. It also recognizes that this is a subjective evaluation arrived at by each individual hairless ape and that even a large number of similar judgements are still each subjective. Does this mean that such judgements are somehow meaningless or worthless?Seversky_{January 14, 2022
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I agree that the individual's right to life should extend to conception or, more practically, that whatever stage of the individual's development can be detected - whether zygote, blastula or fetus - should be protected by a presumptive right to life. That said, how many unborn children died in the razing of Sodom and Gomorrah or the Great Flood? How many continue to be lost in miscarriages or through prenatal illnesses? Texas law SB 8 allows no exceptions in the cases of rape or incest. The law effectively compounds the trauma experienced by the victims of such offenses by compelling them to carry the unborn child to term. Would you not agree that, if the state has a duty to protect the life of the unborn, then it should recognize that there are two individuals involved, both of whom have rights which the state is duty-bound to uphold. Does the state have a moral right to inflict further suffering on an already traumatized victim? Do we know why the mother was so panicked by the birth that she felt compelled to dispose of the child in the dumpster? There is a report of a 911 call to police some months before in which she complained of a violent assault by her boyfriend of the time. For a girl to do what she did suggests either some sort of psychological disorder or extreme fear of consequences, real or imagined.Seversky_{January 14, 2022
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Chuck Darwin writers that this story "has nothing to do with the intelligent design debate." Wrong. The atheistic materialism that lies at the foundation of Darwinian evolution entails that the baby is just a tiny hairless ape with no more inherent value than a rock. We all know that is objectively false. (It is objectively false isn't it Chuck?) That is why the story is so horrifying. Good try at distraction though. I know your cognitive dissonance must be a heavy lift.Barry Arrington_{January 14, 2022
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JVL writes:
From what I can discern Miss Avila’s baby was full-term and so she would NOT have been granted an abortion.
You are a liar. Here is the first line of the Wiki entry on abortion in NM: "Abortion in New Mexico is legal at all stages of pregnancy." The Guttmacher Institute agrees: New Mexico does not have any of the major types of abortion restrictions. What I said is true. There are no limits on obtaining an abortion in New Mexico up until the time of birth. It is sad that you feel compelled to spew lies in order to prop up your wretched belief that it should be lawful to kill babies in their mother's womb.Barry Arrington_{January 14, 2022
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Join Mark Walker as he interviews Abby Johnson and two other former Planned Parenthood employees as they share their stories of redemption and restoration.
Pro Life Forum with Mark Walker and Abby Johnson https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Li5jrqIpyXQ
bornagain77_{January 14, 2022
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ChuckyD claims that abortion has nothing to do with the intelligent design vs. Darwinism debate? Really???
How Darwin's Theory Changed the World Rejection of Judeo-Christian values Excerpt: Weikart explains how accepting Darwinist dogma shifted society’s thinking on human life: “Before Darwinism burst onto the scene in the mid-nineteenth century, the idea of the sanctity of human life was dominant in European thought and law (though, as with all ethical principles, not always followed in practice). Judeo-Christian ethics proscribed the killing of innocent human life, and the Christian churches explicitly forbade murder, infanticide, abortion, and even suicide. “The sanctity of human life became enshrined in classical liberal human rights ideology as ‘the right to life,’ which according to John Locke and the United States Declaration of Independence, was one of the supreme rights of every individual” (p. 75). Only in the late nineteenth and especially the early twentieth century did significant debate erupt over issues relating to the sanctity of human life, especially infanticide, euthanasia, abortion, and suicide. It was no mere coincidence that these contentious issues emerged at the same time that Darwinism was gaining in influence. Darwinism played an important role in this debate, for it altered many people’s conceptions of the importance and value of human life, as well as the significance of death” (ibid.). http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn85/darwin-theory-changed-world.htm How Darwinism Contributed to Modern Views on Abortion, Infanticide, and Euthanasia Excerpt: Not only did Haeckel justify infanticide, abortion, and assisted suicide or voluntary euthanasia, but he also supported the involuntary killing of the mentally ill. https://creationbc.org/index.php/darwinism-contributed-modern-views-abortion-infanticide-euthanasia/ The Historic Connection Between Eugenics and Abortion JUSTIN TAYLOR | JANUARY 27, 2017 Excerpt: many (Darwinists) believed that eugenics required the restriction of births by inferior people.,,, Sanger noted elsewhere, “Those least fit to carry on the race are increasing most rapidly. The most urgent problem today is how to limit and discourage the overfertility of the mentally and physically defective.” Sanger went on to found the American Birth Control League (1921), which became the Planned Parenthood Federation of America in 1946. https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/evangelical-history/the-historic-connection-between-eugenics-and-abortion/ The Cultural Impact of Darwinian Evolution - John West, PhD - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFh4whzh_NU
bornagain77_{January 14, 2022
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Now I'm blocked from: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/at-bigthink-an-author-tries-to-decide-between-science-and-pseudoscience/ You can't make this up. So, my choice seems to be: continue to thread jump in an honest attempt to reply to people OR give up because someone either can't configure their WordPress plugins or because someone doesn't want me commenting. It's one or the other.JVL_{January 14, 2022
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Tragic as this story is, it has nothing to do with the intelligent design debate. I'm sure there are more than a few alternative venues in which to air one's abortion opinions.chuckdarwin_{January 14, 2022
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THIRD TRIMESTER PROCEDURE Albuquerque, New Mexico,,, 24 weeks LMP (5.87 cm BPD) and Above,,, Abortion past 32 weeks (7.97 BPD): For women over the 32nd menstrual week, BPD 7.97 and greater, we provide services on a case-by-case basis. https://southwesternwomens.com/third-trimester/
And again, since JVL is morally upset that his voice is not being heard on kf's thread, where is JVL's moral outrage at these millions upon millions of 'silent screams' going unheard?
POLITICAL WEBSITE’S CHRISTMAS GIFT TO READERS: PROMOTING ABORTION FiveThirtyEight asked readers to share their abortion stories and got something it hadn’t bargained on: Many were glad it didn’t happen MICHAEL EGNOR - Dec. 28, 2021 Excerpt: If you want to understand the mindset of the abortion lobby, note that this plea for accounts of killing of children in the womb appeared on Twitter on Christmas Day. I filled out the form, explaining how I work very hard to protect children in the womb and to oppose abortion. To judge from a collection of responses profiled two days later by Brett T. at Twitchy, it seems that many people on Twitter feel the same way I do:,,, https://mindmatters.ai/2021/12/political-websites-christmas-gift-to-readers-promoting-abortion/
bornagain77_{January 14, 2022
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From what I can discern Miss Avila's baby was full-term and so she would NOT have been granted an abortion. She is rightly being prosecuted for attempted murder and could spend a significant amount of time in prison. I assume that everyone agrees with that possibility? FROM THE EDITORS: You are a liar. Here is the first line of the Wiki entry on abortion in NM: “Abortion in New Mexico is legal at all stages of pregnancy.” The Guttmacher Institute agrees: New Mexico does not have any of the major types of abortion restrictions. What I said is true. There are no limits on obtaining an abortion in New Mexico up until the time of birth. It is sad that you feel compelled to spew lies in order to prop up your wretched belief that it should be lawful to kill babies in their mother’s womb.JVL_{January 14, 2022
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JVL repeatedly posted that it was/is morally unfair that he was, (supposedly), being blocked from commenting on kf's thread, and that his voice was not being heard on kf's thread.
"Well, no surprise that no one cares at all that I have been blocked from commenting on a thread for no discernible reason." - JVL https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/at-bigthink-an-author-tries-to-decide-between-science-and-pseudoscience/#comment-744851
Yet, I wonder if JVL also finds it morally unfair that millions upon millions of 'silent screams' have also gone unheard?
THE SILENT SCREAM – ABORTION Dr. Bernard Nathanson's classic video that shocked the world. He explains the procedure of a suction abortion, https://vimeo.com/513568448 Abortion Has Killed 1-2 Billion Worldwide in 50 Years - April 21, 2013 http://www.lifenews.com/2011/04/21/earth-day-abortion-has-killed-1-2-billion-worldwide-in-50-years/ The Leading Cause of preventable Death in the United States (is abortion) http://infographicaday.com/infographic-the-leading-cause-of-death-in-the-united-states/ Abby Johnson: Un-spinning the Web of Planned Parenthood https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1Dcw2tJczI (Abby Johnson; former planned parenthood executive until she witnessed firsthand, via ultrasound, an abortion. She quit her job within a week. Now she is a staunch pro-life advocate)
Verse:
Psalm 139:13-16 “For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother’s womb. I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.”
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