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A complete Darwin quote with a brief translation

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Taken from Darwin’s “Descent of Man”

We civilised men, on the other hand, do our utmost to check the process of elimination; we build asylums for the imbecile, the maimed, and the sick; we institute poor-laws; and our medical men exert their utmost skill to save the life of every one to the last moment. There is reason to believe that vaccination has preserved thousands, who from a weak constitution would formerly have succumbed to small-pox. Thus the weak members of civilised societies propagate their kind. No one who has attended to the breeding of domestic animals will doubt that this must be highly injurious to the race of man. It is surprising how soon a want of care, or care wrongly directed, leads to the degeneration of a domestic race; but excepting in the case of man itself, hardly any one is so ignorant as to allow his worst animals to breed.

The aid which we feel impelled to give to the helpless is mainly an incidental result of the instinct of sympathy, which was originally acquired as part of the social instincts, but subsequently rendered, in the manner previously indicated, more tender and more widely diffused. Nor could we check our sympathy, even at the urging of hard reason, without deterioration in the noblest part of our nature. The surgeon may harden himself whilst performing an operation, for he knows that he is acting for the good of his patient; but if we were intentionally to neglect the weak and helpless, it could only be for a contingent benefit, with an overwhelming present evil.

So what was Darwin saying here?

First of all we need to know that Darwin’s big idea is that man shares a common ancestor with other mammals. Anatomically, we’re animals, specifically mammals. I don’t really care to argue with anyone who won’t acknowledge that man is a mammal. You’re simply irrational in that case and not worth further consideration. Darwin wasn’t the first to notice that humans are mammals.

But was he saying that there’s no difference at all? Absolutely not. He lays out the case that humans are animal in body and that due to that if follows that we would, in theory, exhibit the same quality in regard to selective breeding – undesirable traits could be bred out and desirable traits bred in. But Darwin doesn’t stop there. Only those who wish to demonize Darwin stop there. He goes on to say that selective breeding of humans, or failure to lend care to the sick, disabled, and injured could only be done by sacrificing “the noblest part of our nature”. Darwin wasn’t arguing FOR eugenics. He was arguing that while eugenics would theoretically work it would require that we degrade the noblest part of our natures to do it, that part which DOES distinguish us from our non-human mammalian relatives.

If there’s any real case to be made for Darwin and the holocaust it’s the opposite of what’s messaged in Expelled. The holocaust resulted from a failure to heed Darwin’s warning that eugenics could only be practiced by sacrificing the noblest part of our nature, the very part and only part that separates us from other animals. Those responsible for the holocaust, beginning with the eugenics movement in America, were the true animals. Those opposed were nobler than the animals.

Comments
Hi Mike, I haven't seen the movie but I think I agree with you. There is a time and place for discussing such things and I don't think a popular-level movie is the place. I think many see the link as important but as you say (and most everyone agrees) that doesn't impact the merit of the scientific case. Then again movies make ideological, political and controversial points all the time. And often not truthfully.Charlie
April 20, 2008
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Charlie You're not making sense. Let's carry it through. You're saying it's not Darwin that's being demonized but rather his ideas. Fair enough. Let's separate the men from their ideas. Would you then demonize dynamite, e=mc^2, and the New Testament because these ideas were employed by evil men to accomplish evil deeds?DaveScot
April 20, 2008
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Hi Dave, The comparison doesn't work. Nobel provided a technology not a rationale for behaviour. Although Darwin did not approve of the behaviour, or even anticipate it, he provided a rationale for it. Perhaps he never even saw the connection himself but it is there and is as plain as day. On the other hand, this is not about blaming and demonizing. None of the works that refers to the Darwin link blames Darwin. You couldn't blame a person for eugenics or the holocaust even if they explicitly recommended it. You can only blame those in power who ordered it and made it happen and those who allowed it.Charlie
April 20, 2008
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"I come not to demonize Darwin but to bury him." I like that quote. I would've preferred they didn't play the Nazi card... and that's what it is, really, a card to induce an emotional response. The accuracy of the claim aside, I don't feel it was needed and I think it actually may have hurt the film's case. Now, everyone's focusing on this (and that John Lennon nonsense) instead of the film's merit. Choking on the bones despite the meat, if you will. Personally, I would like to have seen the film go more into the evidence for design. I was encouraged to see the film go into the "by chance" origin debate with that funny vintage-looking slot machine cartoon. But then, they seems to leave it at that. There are so many other enlightening aspects of the design argument that could've been explained. There are so many holes in neo-darwinism that could've been illustrated. Why not explore those further? Why go into something that really has nothing to do with the science of the debate? To me the time would've been much more fruitful had it been used to show why the ID theory should be allowed in the academic realm in the first place: because it has scientific merit! The biggest claim you hear from atheists wanting to shut down ID is that it doesn't hold up to the "scientific method" and that it's all religion and no science. They could've easily fit in the 45 minutes or longer they spent on the Nazi card, a worthy examination of the scientific merit of ID and the holes in neo-darwinism.-MIKE-
April 20, 2008
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Odd: my bullet lists appeared in the preview but my comment came out all hinky. Anyway, here's a plain-text version that's easier to read: --------------- Allen, it occurs to me that, following the distinction between science and technology, it would be helpful to list a few technologies that, unlike Darwin’s work, actually did make the Nazi holocaust possible: * Efficient trains * modern industrial management systems * The German dye industry culiminating in IG Farben * early computing systems, especially the Hollerith machine So I nominate others to blame to correspond with each of these: * Charles G. Dawes, the American banker whose WWI reparation plan helped revitalize the German railways; * Frederick Winslow Taylor, whose advances in efficient management allowed the operation of the large-scale industrial slaughter; * William Henry Perkin, whose discoveries in organic chemistry led to the rise of the dye industry; * Charles Babbage, who imagined the modern computer. Each of these is, I would say, more responsible for the Nazi holocaust than Darwin. --- But in fact, none of them are responsible: as DaveScot rightly notes, the link is in each and every case absurd.evo_materialist
April 20, 2008
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So should we blame Alfred Nobel (the inventor of dynamite) for suicide bombers? Should we blame Einstein for the proliferation of nuclear weapons? Should we blame Christ for the Spanish Inquisition? However you answer these questions the same answer applies to blaming Darwin for the holocaust.DaveScot
April 20, 2008
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[...] at some point in time.  So for the sake of fairness and balance I feel the need to point out when he says something that’s not only sensible, but that also contradicts the party line over at UD. If there’s [...]DaveScot makes sense? « Further thoughts
April 20, 2008
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"Basically, Darwin was a Brit toff who regretted the impending destruction of what he saw as evolutionarily inferior races by evolutionarily superior ones. He didn’t see what could be done to prevent that outcome, but he didn’t feel any overhwelming urge to push the conflict along." Denyse, that was spot on! Darwin really did not do enough to counteract the social evils that he should have known would result from his theory. As a reclusive scientist, it was clearly his responsibility to become politically active in order to combat the potentially devastating misinterpretation of evolutionary theory by sick ideologues such as Hitler. By the way, your term "Brit toff" never fails to make me laugh. Oh those Brits. Ha Ha!. Keep up the good work!NormO
April 20, 2008
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We don't have to demonize Darwin to point out that what he delivered in DoM was the justification for eugenics. Following the very quote about the extermination of the barbarians and savages Darwin drew the conclusion that the human race would have attained a higher average level of evolution following such genocides. In a relative morality it is quite conceivable that achieving such a higher standard can be seen as a very obvious good. It is impossible to think that some might not take it as an ultimate good. As far as the resulting evil, Darwin wrote that mankind had no right to expect to avoid such evils as would be imposed by unfettered natural selection, and he said outright that if man were to continue to advance he must necessarily face them. His solution was not medical killings and sterilization but unrestrained reproduction (of the better men) and the survival of the fittest. Darwin's ambiguity and gentle nature notwithstanding, his scientific justification stands.Charlie
April 20, 2008
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Eugenics doesn’t depend on Darwinian theory. Eugenics is based on nothing more or less than the presumption that humans are mammals and can be bred like mammals. Eugenics is Darwinian theory applied to man. Imagine if ID reasoning was similar to Nazi reasoning, might the other side make use of unspecified imagery and emotional conditioning with little concern for distinctions? They already falsely associate ID with the Dark Ages, theocracy, creationism and so on so I doubt that many would be parsing the words of ID proponents. It's good that ID proponents generally don't do the same thing because their attitude towards arguments of association and vague imagery seems to be different. Yet you seem to be trying to go too far away from the recognition of patterns/imagery and so on, there are too many links between Darwinism and eugenics that cannot be parsed and defined out of existence.mynym
April 20, 2008
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Allen, it occurs to me that, following the distinction between science and technology, it would be helpful to list a few technologies that, unlike Darwin's work, actually did make the Nazi holocaust possible: Efficient trains modern industrial management systems The German dye industry culiminating in IG Farbenearly computering systems, especially the Hollerith machineSo I nominate others to blame to correspond with each of these: Charles G. Dawes, the American banker whose WWI reparation plan helped revitalize the German railways; Frederick Winslow Taylor, whose advances in efficient management allowed the operation of the large-scale industrial slaughter; William Henry Perkin, whose discoveries in organic chemistry led to the rise of the dye industry; Charles Babbage, who imagined the modern computer. Each of these is, I would say, more responsible for the Nazi holocaust than Darwin.evo_materialist
April 20, 2008
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Following is a good example of how Expelled is resulting in these issues being aired. Academics of evolution vs. creation Panel discussion will follow Thursday screening of ‘Expelled’ Sunday News Published: Apr 20, 2008 00:04 EST Lititz * Article * Map * Related * Share It Don't Link Tags By MICHAEL SCHWARTZ, Staff The heart of the issue, said Franklin & Marshall professor Roger Thomas, is this: "To what extent are we willing to accept the natural world as rationally intelligible as opposed to concocting mythologies to explain it?" The issue? Whether academics who profess a belief in intelligent design, or even a hint of doubt in evolution, are persecuted by colleagues who mock their opinions and universities who deny them tenure or worse. A new film, "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed," argues that these professors do suffer for their beliefs in rabidly secular academia. The F&M Center for Liberal Arts and Society has partnered with Penn Cinema for a screening of the film, followed by a panel discussion with F&M faculty members at 7 p.m. Thursday, April 24, at Penn Cinema, 541 Airport Road. Related Stories * BBC host makes his cas... * Charter school rejected * Intelligent design tri... * County native fixes ro... * Giving it up, not livi... One hundred students and guests of the college will attend; the remaining 230 seats are available to the public for $9 at penncinema.com. Panelists include social and physical scientists: Michael Murray teaches philosophy, Daniel Ardia is a biologist, Howard Kaye is a professor of sociology, and Thomas teaches paleontology. "I'm not anti-religion and by no means am I an atheist," Thomas said. "For me, the suggestion that there absolutely is no God cannot be sustained any more than the suggestion that there absolutely is." Murray approaches the question from perhaps the most interesting perspective: as an evangelical Christian and a part of the academia that supposedly marginalizes him. Related Topics * Franklin & Marsha... (528) * religion (79) * creation (52) * science (44) * culture (23) * Penn Cinema (22) * philosophy (6) * evolution (4) * intelligent design (3) "I see cultural tension from both sides of the issue," said Murray, who also lectures on reconciling Christianity and science at local churches. "Most academics are open to where the evidence leads them and defend conclusions based on evidence alone. "But some dismiss [intelligent design] immediately and have difficulty articulating a clear answer why," he said. Conversely, Murray said that while most churchgoers he speaks with aren't hostile to science, some "see evidence [of evolution] as self-deceiving or an attempt to deceive others." Murray doesn't think intelligent design holds water as a scientific theory but hopes screening the film will provoke a thoughtful discussion without recriminations. Part of the reason creation vs. evolution remains a heated debate stems from semantics, Thomas said. Some words that have a broad meaning in a lay context have a very narrow definition to a scientist. In science, he said, a fact is an observation while a theory explains those observations. The word "prove," he said, is "the biggest bugaboo." A demand that opponents of evolution often make, he said, is that its proponents "prove it." "First off, you can't prove it," Thomas said. "Second, science is not in the business of proving, it's in the business of testing hypotheses. "Proof is possible in mathematics and in logic and in any closed system but science is open. It's always opening new worlds of thought and ideas," he said. The idea of intelligent design, however, is one to which Thomas, and virtually the entire scientific community, is closed. "Intelligent design is the modern day effort of creationists to introduce religious thought into teaching biology, and most mainstream universities will have none of it," he said. "I am an evolutionist," he said. "I believe very clearly that I'm dealing with something real, not something some people believe is imaginary." The film's online trailer calls the movie "a startling revelation that freedom of thought and freedom of inquiry have been expelled from publicly funded high schools, universities and research institutions." Neither Murray nor Thomas said they've ever seen anything like that at F&M. Murray said he hopes the screening "will provide an opportunity to bring people together and have a sober-minded discussion instead of throwing rotten tomatoes at each other." Michael Schwartz is a staff writer for the Sunday News. His e-mail address is mschwartz@lnpnews.com. -------------- Again note the issue of the absolute intolerance of evolutionary academics for any hint of allowing ID as "science".DLH
April 20, 2008
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DaveScott Back to Expelled, the issue it highlights is that the elite Darwinian science oligarchy applies Darwin's theories to the practical effect of: 1 Excluding any option of Intelligent Design 2 Preventing publication of any works mentioning ID 3 Rejecting grants for any research on ID 4 Forbidding hiring persons sympathetic to ID 5 "Firing" (not extending contracts) to any found sympathetic to ID 6 Forbidding Tenure to Gonzalez and others sympathetic to ID 7 Persuading the media to demonize ID, caricaturing it as religion 8 Supporting court cases against any hint of ID in schools etc. It is countering this totalitarianism and speaking out for freedom that is the critical issue that Ben Stein works to expose. His exemplifies this by showing the Berlin wall being built to exclude ideas from the west. Ben Stein traces the outworkings of Darwin's theories to Hitler as an example of the totalitarian outworkings of Darwin's "Survival of the Fittest" etc. Whatever sympathetic or "noble" feelings Darwin may have had or expressed are inundated by the effect of his theories put into practice throughout the 20th century and into today's Darwinian totalitarianism. Yes, I am happy to join you in "burying" Darwin - and his theories. Let us work with Stein to raise awareness of this creeping totalitarianism in Science, academia and education. Let us then see how we can counter it - both by developing scientific theories of Intelligent Design and supporting the freedom of inquiry in academia and education.DLH
April 20, 2008
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DaveScott
The holocaust resulted from a failure to heed Darwin’s warning that eugenics could only be practiced by sacrificing the noblest part of our nature, the very part and only part that separates us from other animals. Those responsible for the holocaust, beginning with the eugenics movement in America, were the true animals. Those opposed were nobler than the animals.
It is good to seek the best interpretation on Darwin's writings. Yet where Darwin obtained his "noblest part of our nature"? From his own theory, or from his Judeo-Christian heritage? Of critical import is how Darwin's theory was understood and applied in practice. The Nazi's applied Darwin's theories while rejecting that Judeo-Christian heritage. See Richard Weikart's article Darwin and the Nazis and the discussion here Darwin and the Nazi's discussion at UD.
As I show in meticulous detail in my book, From Darwin to Hitler: Evolutionary Ethics, Eugenics, and Racism in Germany, the Nazis’ devaluing of human life derived from Darwinian ideology (this does not mean that all Nazi ideology came from Darwinism). There were six features of Darwinian theory that have contributed to the devaluing of human life (then and now): 1. Darwin argued that humans were not qualitatively different from animals. The leading Darwinist in Germany, Ernst Haeckel, attacked the “anthropocentric” view that humans are unique and special. 2. Darwin denied that humans had an immaterial soul. He and other Darwinists believed that all aspects of the human psyche, including reason, morality, aesthetics, and even religion, originated through completely natural processes. 3. Darwin and other Darwinists recognized that if morality was the product of mindless evolution, then there is no objective, fixed morality and thus no objective human rights. Darwin stated in his Autobiography that one “can have for his rule of life, as far as I can see, only to follow those impulses and instincts which are the strongest or which seem to him the best ones.” 4. Since evolution requires variation, Darwin and other early Darwinists believed in human inequality. Haeckel emphasized inequality to such as extent that he even classified human races as twelve distinct species and claimed that the lowest humans were closer to primates than to the highest humans. 5. Darwin and most Darwinists believe that humans are locked in an ineluctable struggle for existence. Darwin claimed in The Descent of Man that because of this struggle, “[a]t some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilised races of man will almost certainly exterminate and replace throughout the world the savage races.” 6. Darwinism overturned the Judeo-Christian view of death as an enemy, construing it instead as a beneficial engine of progress. Darwin remarked in The Origin of Species, “Thus, from the war of nature, from famine and death, the most exalted object which we are capable of conceiving, namely, the production of the higher animals, directly follows.” These six ideas were promoted by many prominent Darwinian biologists and Darwinian-inspired social thinkers in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. All six were enthusiastically embraced by Hitler and many other leading Nazis. Hitler thought that killing “inferior” humans would bring about evolutionary progress.
Weikart responded to critic Sander Gliboff. It is when Darwin's theory is thus applied to society ("Social Darwinism") that we have seen the greatest tyrannies of the twentieth century - e.g., in Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot.DLH
April 20, 2008
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I come not to demonize Darwin but to bury him. I think this is a good point. I believe that Darwin believed that he had really figured out the origin of species, and had provided a simple explanation for all of life's complexity and diversity, without design. Unfortunately, "the greatest idea anyone ever had," is based on 19th-century naivete about how things really are and how they work. This idea was latched onto by those with a philosophical agenda, and this agenda is being defended to the death by those who are unwilling to admit that the evidence of modern science and mathematics has refuted its underpinnings.GilDodgen
April 20, 2008
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David Klinghofer writes: http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=Mjg1NDg2ZDM5YTMwMGFiZGNhNTU5M2MwOTQ2NGE1Mjc=
Most disturbing of all, in The Descent of Man, Darwin prophesied: “At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilized races of man will almost certainly exterminate and replace throughout the world the savage races.” While it must be very clearly emphasized that the gentle-souled Darwin himself never supported ill treatment of any race or group, his words inspired a movement to “scientific” racism.
russ
April 20, 2008
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I think it's fair to give Darwin credit for creating a new world view in which the practice of eugenics became respectable, or even worse, opposing the practice became disrespectable.tribune7
April 20, 2008
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Richard Weikart's "From Darwin to Hitler" is, in my view, indispensable for understanding what happened when Darwin's ideas got translated into German. Basically, Darwin was a Brit toff who regretted the impending destruction of what he saw as evolutionarily inferior races by evolutionarily superior ones. He didn't see what could be done to prevent that outcome, but he didn't feel any overhwelming urge to push the conflict along. Now, once the ideas he and his friends popularized were abroad in the world, they took root in the minds of very different types of people. The Nazi movement, for example, was full of people who did want to push the conflict along. And the Nazis had far more sympathizers in both Britain and North America than anyone now wants to admit. I have little doubt that if the Nazis did not have Darwin, they would have found someone else to answer the need. Nietzsche alone might have done just fine. But they did have Darwin, and they used his ideas in the ways that suited them. I don't think it is wrong to point that out. As John West points out in his recent book, Darwin Day in America, a number of museums have unashamedly rewritten history to make it seem that Darwin actually opposed racist ideas.O'Leary
April 20, 2008
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There may not be a necessary theoretical connection between Darwinism and Eugenics. However, there is an empirical connection: for decades, the founders and main organizers of the eugenics organization were Darwin's relatives.EndoplasmicMessenger
April 20, 2008
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Did Darwin cause the eugenics movement or the holocaust? The answer depends on what one means by “cause.” We lawyers distinguish between a “cause-in-fact” and a “proximate cause.” A cause-in-fact is a cause that is logically part of the chain of causation of a particular effect, however remote. A proximate cause is what most people think of as the “cause” of an effect, i.e., the key event or events that led immediately to the effect. An example might help explain the distinction. Bob is driving down the road and negligently swerves into oncoming traffic and hits Dan. Bob’s negligence is the proximate cause of the collision. But there are many other causes. For example, Bob’s mother met Bob’s father and Bob was born. How is this a “cause” of the collision. Think about it. If this event had never happened, Bob would never have been born and there would have been no collision. Surely Bob’s mother and father are not morally or legally responsible for the collision. In other words, while their activity is part of the chain of causation that led to the effect, they are not the proximate cause of the collision. More recently, someone at the DMV issued Bob a driver’s license; another person sold Bob a car. If neither of these two events had happened, there would have been no collision. Are the DMV clerk or the car salesman legally culpable? No. While they are both links in the chain of causation that led to the collision, the links are too remote for us to attach culpability to their actions. Where does cause-in-fact end and proximate cause begin? That’s the $64,000 question. Suppose Bob just left a bar. Is the bartender’s action is selling Bob a beer a proximate cause of the collision? Maybe, maybe not. Did he sell Bob one beer or eight? Was Bob obviously drunk when he sold him the last beer or two or three? At some point along the chain of causation, causes convert from the cause-in-fact category to the proximate cause category, and when that happens is often a matter of judgment and may not be clear. Back to Darwin. Whether Darwin personally intended the eugenics movement or the holocaust is not really a useful question in my view. The issue is whether his work constituted a link in the chain of causation that led to these events. Surely it was. Was Darwin the “proximate cause” of either of these events? Was he morally culpable? Probably not. At the end of the day does it matter whether Darwin is morally culpable? Well, it matters for certain purposes and not for others. Evil men and women used Darwin’s ideas to advance the eugenics movement and the holocaust. Whether Darwin intended this to happen is beside the point. It happened. Therefore, in this sense Darwin’s personal culpability is quite beside the point. Can the eugenics movement and the holocaust be placed at Darwin’s feet in an effort to discredit everything that falls under the rubric “Darwinism”? Again, probably not, and this is the point of DaveScott’s post. For this purpose it matters very much whether Darwin was personally culpable.BarryA
April 20, 2008
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Dave, I commend you on an insightful analysis of the relationship between Darwin's theory of evolution and eugenics. As you point out, the latter is not a science, but rather a technology. That is, the application of scientific knowledge to the deliberate alteration of nature in the pursuit of a goal or goals desired by humans. In this sense, therefore, all technologies (including eugenics) are a direct outgrowth of a system of social morals (i.e. ethics). From our perspective today, we almost universally decry that branch of technology known as eugenics, but we do this mostly as the result of our historical knowledge of what the technology of eugenics resulted in: at the very least, injustice, and at the very most (and most horrific) genocide. It would do everyone thinking about this issue good to consider what the early supporters of eugenics thought about their new "technology" and why they supported it. We can look back now and condemn them all, but without the perspective gained from having the history of the 20th century behind us, I believe that such blanket condemnation does not give either the founders of eugenics (nor its more modern critics) enough credit. "By their fruits shall ye know them" is just another way of saying that empirical knowledge of the effects of a particular system of thought is generally superior to a theoretical understanding of that same system, but devoid of the lessons of experience. Knowing what we know now about the political and social effects of eugenics, would anyone (including any evolutionary biologist I know) advocate it, especially in the ways in which it was advocated during the first two decades of the 20th century? I believe that the answer is no; that would certainly be my answer. However, I also believe that one might come to a different conclusion were one to put oneself in the position of, say, Ronald Aylmer Fisher, one of the founders of the "modern evolutionary synthesis". Fisher was an extraordinarily creative evolutionary biologist, a brilliant mathematician, and a dedicated eugenicist. He was also a life-long and very devout member of the Church of England who often penned essays on christian faith that were published and widely read by his fellow Anglicans. How would a partisan for either side of the EB-ID debate reconcile Fisher's devotion to evolution, eugenics, and Christianity? Only be taking a much less simplistic and more nuanced view of all three of these very human endeavors.Allen_MacNeill
April 20, 2008
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Eugenics was invented by Charles Darwin's cousin Francis Galton, who just loved evolution. One of Darwin's sons was involved in the early eugenics societies. See also Eugenics … death of the defenceless: The legacy of Darwin’s cousin Galton And despite the atheopathic mendacity of New Scientist, it was the liberal (pro-evolution, Bible-disbelieving) churches that supported it. Christine Rosen documented this in her book Preaching Genetics: Religious Leaders and the American Eugenics Movement, Oxford University Press, New York, 2004. One site summarized: Christine Rosen argues that religious leaders pursued eugenics precisely when they moved away from traditional religious tenets. The liberals and modernists-those who challenged their churches to embrace modernity-became the eugenics movement's most enthusiastic supporters. Their participation played an important part in the success of the American eugenics movement. See also a detailed review.Jonathan Sarfati
April 20, 2008
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DaveScot wrote:
Practioners of eugenics and their sponsers were animalistic in behavior.
While I agree fully, and I applaud your calling attention to America's role in this dark chapter of world history, I must also point out that the sponsors in question include: 1. Francis Galton - Charles Darwin's cousin, pioneer of modern eugenics and founder of the Eugenics Society. 2. Leonard Darwin - Charles' son, Galton's successor in the Eugenics Society. 3. Francis Darwin - member of the Cambridge Eugenics Society. 4. Horace Darwin - member of the Cambridge Eugenics Society, Darwin Medalist 1912. 5. George Howard Darwin - Charles' son, member of the Cambridge Eugenics Society. 6. Charles Galton Darwin - Charles' grandson, Eugenics Society life fellow. I would hope that Charles Darwin would be displeased with his close relatives being so entangled with the eugenics movement if had lived to see it.angryoldfatman
April 20, 2008
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The problem, Dave, is that the word noble has no fixed meaning in an evolutionary vocabulary. The Nazi prison guard clearly thought himself a more noble specimen than his victims -- stronger, healthier, descended from better stock, significantly more likely to survive, and unhindered by "nuisance instincts" such as empathy, pity, justice, mercy, etc. Once an objective moral standard is discarded, there is no rod by which the relative worth of various "instincts" can be measured. Darwin is appealing to the theist's notion of nobility while rejecting the Noble One who gives meaning to that term. I'd say, "No fair!" but the word fair carries with it the very same problem...Gerry Rzeppa
April 20, 2008
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Atheists often refer to Darwin as being the source of their liberation from things such as nobility. I find it interesting as I read Darwin that he often refers to "evil" and the state of being noble. After all - is nobility even mildly scientific? Is there a chemical test whereby a mammal might be checked for its scale of nobility? Better yet - what would function as the ultimate adjuticator for nobility? Does anyone know if Darwin offers a standard by which nobility and evil can be measured? Once we get a firm grasp around that, then we can proceed to the question of why on earth eugenics would be evil - that is, if all we are is random particles and random occurances. As I read this and the passages that follow, Darwin seems conflicted as he writes this. I think the key phrase in the Holocaust and Eugenics is "logical conclusion." There is no doubt those movements drew heavily from Darwin, but they simply followed it somewhere the "noble" Darwin could not bring himself to espouse.selectedpete
April 20, 2008
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What darwin thinks about it matters not. Some prefer to rob or murder etc. As descendents of pond scum, anyones morals don't count anymore than anyone elses. They don't even exist. Darwin demotes human life in priciple = grief for humanity. But hitler was so obviously practicing darwin I can't imagine it's debatable.He wasn't just doing a little breeding right?butifnot
April 20, 2008
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And I'm not demonizing Darwin either. Hell, I'm agreeing with a lot of what you say - I'm not disputing the accuracy of your Darwin quote, or questioning Darwin's personal motives here. I drew a distinction between Darwin himself and darwinism as both scientific theory and a source of philosophical formation. You quote Darwin talking about humans being distinct from animals, as having a certain nobility, and talking about 'evil' as an objective reality. Are you asserting that darwinism entails these things? That many (but not all) people who self-identify as darwinists, past and present, believe as much? Come on. That would be like me arguing that, since Gregor Mendel was a friar, the theory of evolution is somehow an objectively theistic (or even Catholic) concept. Again: I am not arguing that darwinism logically demands eugenics or nazism. I'm with you in regarding that as an abuse of the science. But justifications of eugenics, abuse or not, did proceed from the view that people (a race, a nation) would best thrive if the population were drained of undesirables. If you're arguing that Darwin himself did not advocate eugenics, I'll agree with you - let's go by your quotes. If you're arguing that eugenics and the holocaust aren't demanded by darwinism (or even neodarwinism), again I'll agree with you - those are political and philosophical views, and arguing the science 'demands' them is an abuse of the science. But if you're arguing that no one used (frankly, abused) darwinism to promote eugenics and similar policies, you've lost me. Read up on Francis Galton and other eugenics proponents. Explore the history of "social darwinism" and why it was called as much - it wasn't a concept dreamed up by people to smear innocent people.nullasalus
April 20, 2008
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But Darwin doesn’t stop there...He goes on to say that selective breeding of humans, or failure to lend care to the sick, disabled, and injured could only be done by sacrificing “the noblest part of our nature”.
Nor does he stop there. He goes on to relativize the lending of care to the sick, disabled, and injured. He says, "...if we were intentionally to neglect the weak and helpless, it could only be for a contingent benefit, with an overwhelming present evil.” Who gets to place a value on the “contingent benefit” or determine what is an “overwhelming present evil?” With the environmental pressures on the German population in the wake of WW I (war reparations, loss of land and “lebensraum,” worldwide economic depression, the threat of communism, etc.) the National Socialists made the case that jettisoning “the weak” was the correct course of action. Their case blended with national/racial pride and the long-standing notion that Germany was destined for greatness. They proposed using biological methods to create a superior race. Most German biologists, physicians, anthropologists, geneticists, etc., were on board with this. They saw it as advancing science, and completely consistent with their scientific models. The Nazis didn’t make the sale to the majority of the German people. But in the absence of alternative leadership, Hitler won a plurality in the 1933 election, and the rest is history. Richard Weikart, in his article “Darwin and the Nazis“ in the latest American Spectator http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=13061 makes the connection between Darwinism and Nazism much more thoroughly and clearly.
These six ideas were promoted by many prominent Darwinian biologists and Darwinian-inspired social thinkers in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. All six were enthusiastically embraced by Hitler and many other leading Nazis. Hitler thought that killing "inferior" humans would bring about evolutionary progress. Most historians who specialize in the Nazi era recognize the Darwinian underpinnings of many aspects of Hitler's ideology.
Wasn’t it this blog which referred us to Weikart’s article?Lutepisc
April 20, 2008
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Word up, DaveScot. IMO we lose credibility when we waste our limited opportunities to speak on ad hominem arguments like the Darwin-Holocaust link. ID isn't about what philosophical and/or moral conclusions are drawn from it or any alternative. ID is about what happened to make us, and how it happened.ungtss
April 20, 2008
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[...] UPDATE II: Okay, I’ve been hard on DaveScot here, but I also have to be fair. His uncharacteristic reasonableness displayed here must be read to be believed. (EDIT: Also see here.) [...]DaveScot Serves Up Some Bush Strategery « PowerUp
April 20, 2008
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