Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

A Modest Proposal for Academic Freedom Bills

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

One endless discussion that always happens with the proposal of academic freedom bills in state legislatures is that the Darwin camp always says that they are about introducing religion into science classrooms. Even if the bill says, “this does not permit anyone to introduce religion into the classrooms,” the pro-Darwin crowd somehow misses this clause, or thinks that judges interpret bills based on the “secret agenda” of those proposing them, rather than the actual language of the bill.

I think a better way of settling this, is to formally define what constitutes legitimate scientific discussion in a science class. I think that there is, at least for biology, a perfectly reasonable reposity of standard information – Pubmed.

Pubmed is run by the NIH, and its purpose is to help the dissemination of information for medicine. Rather than argue tirelessly about what constitutes the introduction of religion into the classroom, why not just punt the definition of science to the NIH, and simply say something like “any paper indexed by Pubmed within the last 20 years should be considered a valid topic of discussion in the sciences.” That way, if someone thinks that these papers are about religion, then someone needs to explain what the NIH is doing indexing papers on religion!

I think this would give the academic freedom movement a more objective means of determining scientific discourse, and would mean that our detractors would have to spell out why they think that the NIH is incapable of distinguishing science from non-science, and why they think that the NIH is indexing papers on religious topics.

I, frankly, would enjoy listening to that conversation.

Comments
The Origin of Biological Information and the Higher Taxonomic Categories - Stephen Meyer"Neo-Darwinism seeks to explain the origin of new information, form, and structure as a result of selection acting on randomly arising variation at a very low level within the biological hierarchy, mainly, within the genetic text. Yet the major morphological innovations depend on a specificity of arrangement at a much higher level of the organizational hierarchy, a level that DNA alone does not determine. Yet if DNA is not wholly responsible for body plan morphogenesis, then DNA sequences can mutate indefinitely, without regard to realistic probabilistic limits, and still not produce a new body plan. Thus, the mechanism of natural selection acting on random mutations in DNA cannot in principle generate novel body plans, including those that first arose in the Cambrian explosion." http://eyedesignbook.com/ch6/eyech6-append-d.html Stephen Meyer - Functional Proteins And Information For Body Plans - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4050681/stephen_meyer_functional_proteins_and_information_for_body_plans/ Fearfully and Wonderfully Made - Glimpses At Human Development In The Womb - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4249713/fearfully_and_wonderfully_made_glimpses_at_development_in_the_womb/ Darwin's Theory - Fruit Flies and Morphology - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZJTIwRY0bs etc.. etc.. etc...bornagain77
March 10, 2010
March
03
Mar
10
10
2010
07:15 AM
7
07
15
AM
PDT
Severe Limits to Darwinian Evolution: - Michael Behe - Oct. 2009 Excerpt: The immediate, obvious implication is that the 2009 results render problematic even pretty small changes in structure/function for all proteins — not just the ones he worked on.,,,Thanks to Thornton’s impressive work, we can now see that the limits to Darwinian evolution are more severe than even I had supposed. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/10/severe_limits_to_darwinian_evo.html#more The Capabilities of Chaos and Complexity - David L. Abel - 2009 Excerpt: "A monstrous ravine runs through presumed objective reality. It is the great divide between physicality and formalism. On the one side of this Grand Canyon lies everything that can be explained by the chance and necessity of physicodynamics. On the other side lies those phenomena than can only be explained by formal choice contingency and decision theory—the ability to choose with intent what aspects of ontological being will be preferred, pursued, selected, rearranged, integrated, organized, preserved, and used. Physical dynamics includes spontaneous non linear phenomena, but not our formal applied-science called “non linear dynamics”(i.e. language,information). http://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/10/1/247/pdf i.e. There are no physical or chemical forces between the nucleotides along the linear axis of DNA (where the information is) that causes the sequence of nucleotides to exist as they do. In fact as far as the foundational laws of the universe are concerned the DNA molecule doesn’t even have to exist at all. Stephen Meyer is interviewed about the "information problem" in DNA, Signature in the Cell - video http://downloads.cbn.com/cbnnewsplayer/cbnplayer.swf?aid=8497 The DNA Enigma - Where Did The Information Come Frome? - Stephen C. Meyer - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4125886/the_dna_enigma_where_did_the_information_come_frome_stephen_c_meyer/ Stephen C. Meyer - Signature In The Cell: "DNA functions like a software program," "We know from experience that software comes from programmers. Information--whether inscribed in hieroglyphics, written in a book or encoded in a radio signal--always arises from an intelligent source. So the discovery of digital code in DNA provides evidence that the information in DNA also had an intelligent source." http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/07/leading_advocate_of_intelligen.htmlbornagain77
March 10, 2010
March
03
Mar
10
10
2010
07:09 AM
7
07
09
AM
PDT
How to Play the Gene Evolution Game - Casey Luskin - Feb. 2010 http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/02/how_to_play_the_gene_evolution.html Jonathan Wells Hits an Evolutionary Nerve: "duplicating a gene doesn’t increase information content any more than photocopying a paper increases its information content." http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/10/jonathan_wells_hits_an_evoluti.html The Evolution-Lobby’s Useless Definition of Biological Information - Feb. 2010 Excerpt: By wrongly implying that Shannon information is the only “sense used by information theorists,” the NCSE avoids answering more difficult questions like how the information in biological systems becomes functional, or in its own words, “useful.”,,,Since biology is based upon functional information, Darwin-skeptics are interested in the far more important question of, Does neo-Darwinism explain how new functional biological information arises? http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/02/the_evolutionlobbys_useless_de.html Mathematically Defining Functional Information In Molecular Biology - Kirk Durston - short video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3995236/mathematically_defining_functional_information_in_molecular_biology_kirk_durston/ Functional information and the emergence of bio-complexity: Robert M. Hazen, Patrick L. Griffin, James M. Carothers, and Jack W. Szostak: Abstract: Complex emergent systems of many interacting components, including complex biological systems, have the potential to perform quantifiable functions. Accordingly, we define 'functional information,' I(Ex), as a measure of system complexity. For a given system and function, x (e.g., a folded RNA sequence that binds to GTP), and degree of function, Ex (e.g., the RNA-GTP binding energy), I(Ex)= -log2 [F(Ex)], where F(Ex) is the fraction of all possible configurations of the system that possess a degree of function > Ex. Functional information, which we illustrate with letter sequences, artificial life, and biopolymers, thus represents the probability that an arbitrary configuration of a system will achieve a specific function to a specified degree. In each case we observe evidence for several distinct solutions with different maximum degrees of function, features that lead to steps in plots of information versus degree of functions. Could Chance Arrange the Code for (Just) One Gene? "our minds cannot grasp such an extremely small probability as that involved in the accidental arranging of even one gene (10^-236)." http://www.creationsafaris.com/epoi_c10.htm Evolution vs. Functional Proteins - Doug Axe - Video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4018222/evolution_vs_functional_proteins_where_did_the_information_come_from_doug_axe_stephen_meyer/bornagain77
March 10, 2010
March
03
Mar
10
10
2010
07:03 AM
7
07
03
AM
PDT
How should we summarize that experiment? Genetic Entropy was demonstrated when small populations of fruit flies went extinct under high levels of radiation. No, that doesn’t quite capture it, does it? How about – Genetic Entropy went extinct as fruit flies demonstrated evolution under high levels of radiation. I think that is about right.
That would be highly unethical since you are ignoring cases where irradation or outright exinction from even less extreme causes occur. These are invalid generalizations from limited data. The data you presented is cherry picked and prejudicial, that's not science... Furthermore, it does not address the fundamental issue of whether things will evolve more complexity, at best they just survive.scordova
March 10, 2010
March
03
Mar
10
10
2010
06:24 AM
6
06
24
AM
PDT
a perfectly reasonable reposity of standard information – Pubmed.
One addendum: include also publications of the IEEE, and Chaos Solitons and Fractals (wink, wink).scordova
March 10, 2010
March
03
Mar
10
10
2010
06:18 AM
6
06
18
AM
PDT
Selection is just differential survival, it doesn’t ‘arise’ or have to be invented.
Diffrential reproductive success exists, but it does not imply it will lead to complexity. It has been shown selection actually works agains the formation of complexity and rube-goldberg type systems (and life is full of such systems)..... What doesn't arise spontaneously are selective pressures that lead to integrated complexity. The only places where it does are in the stories of evolutionists, not in empirical reality. I've posed the question before: what rate are new protein protein binding sites in all species being created and at what rate are they being lost (exinction events like those int he Amazon rain forest count as binding sites being lost). There are two reasonable answers: 1. we don't really know 2. given the exinction rate, the total number of protein binding sites in existence are being reduced Ergo, Darwinism is story telling, not empirical science. I don't think we even need an academic freedom bill to tell the students the truth. It's unethical and possibly illegal that the truth is being withheld from students.scordova
March 10, 2010
March
03
Mar
10
10
2010
06:10 AM
6
06
10
AM
PDT
Mr BA^77, If a random mutation turns AAAAA into AABAA, has information been created or destroyed? If a gene duplication turns ABCDE into ABCDECDE, has information been created or destroyed? If a retrovirus changes ABCDE into ABCDXYZE, has information been created or destroyed? Try to answer in your own words. The relevant definition of information is ...?Nakashima
March 10, 2010
March
03
Mar
10
10
2010
01:35 AM
1
01
35
AM
PDT
scordova, Again, let's be careful about language sliding from 'variation' to 'mutation'. Even so, the point of bringing up a forcing of high levels of mutation is what, exactly? What hypothesis do you think has been falsified? They couldn't turn an ordinary bacteria into D. radiodurans in a week? You're not poking evolution with a very sharp stick, here. Selection is just differential survival, it doesn't 'arise' or have to be invented. I'd love ot see the scientific description of this cobalt bomb lab experiment, do you have a reference? I'd like to compare it to Adaptation of Drosophila melanogaster populations to high mutation pressure: evolutionary adjustment of mutation rates. Nöthel H. Evolutionary aspects of high mutation pressure were studied in laboratory populations of Drosophila melanogaster that have irradiation histories up to 600 generations. Dose-response regressions for the x-ray induction of various types of mutation were obtained from six of these populations. The sensitivity of these irradiated populations relative to an unirradiated control population was characterized by dose reduction factors. Sensitivity decreased stepwise with the stepwise increase in irradiation levels to which the populations had been exposed every generation (0 R, 2 kR, 4 kR, 8 kR; 1 R = 0.258 mC/kg) but remained the same over hundreds of generations when the irradiation levels were constant. Resistance is controlled by single genetic factors. Additional factors evolved in subpopulations exposed to increased irradiation levels, and different factors evolved in populations that were kept separate from the beginning of their irradiation histories. Two of three factors persisted in subpopulations no longer irradiated, but one factor disappeared; this last one behaved like a transposon. Factors of relative radio-resistance are stage specific (immature oocytes) and some of them are assumed to modify or control mutation-rate genes. The resistance factors enable populations to achieve an equilibrium between the amounts of environmental mutagens and intrinsic mutation rates. How should we summarize that experiment? Genetic Entropy was demonstrated when small populations of fruit flies went extinct under high levels of radiation. No, that doesn't quite capture it, does it? How about - Genetic Entropy went extinct as fruit flies demonstrated evolution under high levels of radiation. I think that is about right.Nakashima
March 10, 2010
March
03
Mar
10
10
2010
01:22 AM
1
01
22
AM
PDT
Similarly, individual genetic variations might not be much, but add them up across time, geography and populations and you get a world of diverse species
A seemingly modest claim that is the basis for the entire Neo-Darwinian framework. Yet a modest claim that has zero empirical support to withstand scrutiny. Stephen Meyer - Functional Proteins And Information For Body Plans - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4050681/stephen_meyer_functional_proteins_and_information_for_body_plans/ Waiting Longer for Two Mutations, Part 5 - Michael Behe Excerpt: the appearance of a particular (beneficial) double mutation in humans would have an expected time of appearance of 216 million years, http://behe.uncommondescent.com/2009/03/waiting-longer-for-two-mutations-part-5/ The Paradox of the "Ancient" Bacterium Which Contains "Modern" Protein-Coding Genes: “Almost without exception, bacteria isolated from ancient material have proven to closely resemble modern bacteria at both morphological and molecular levels.” Heather Maughan*, C. William Birky Jr., Wayne L. Nicholson, William D. Rosenzweig§ and Russell H. Vreeland ; http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/19/9/1637 “Whatever we may try to do within a given species, we soon reach limits which we cannot break through. A wall exists on every side of each species. That wall is the DNA coding, which permits wide variety within it (within the gene pool, or the genotype of a species)-but no exit through that wall. Darwin's gradualism is bounded by internal constraints, beyond which selection is useless." R. Milner, Encyclopedia of Evolution (1990) “There is no known law of nature, no known process and no known sequence of events which can cause information to originate by itself in matter.” Werner Gitt, “In the Beginning was Information”, 1997, p. 106. (Dr. Gitt was the Director at the German Federal Institute of Physics and Technology) His challenge to scientifically falsify this statement has remained unanswered since first published. Random Mutations Destroy Information - Perry Marshall - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4023143/random_mutations_destroy_information_perry_marshall/ Estimation of spontaneous genome-wide mutation rate parameters: whither beneficial mutations? (Thomas Bataillon) Abstract......It is argued that, although most if not all mutations detected in mutation accumulation experiments are deleterious, the question of the rate of favourable mutations (and their effects) is still a matter for debate. A review of The Edge of Evolution: The Search for the Limits of Darwinism The numbers of Plasmodium and HIV in the last 50 years greatly exceeds the total number of mammals since their supposed evolutionary origin (several hundred million years ago), yet little has been achieved by evolution. This suggests that mammals could have "invented" little in their time frame. Behe: ‘Our experience with HIV gives good reason to think that Darwinism doesn’t do much—even with billions of years and all the cells in that world at its disposal’ (p. 155). http://creation.com/review-michael-behe-edge-of-evolution etc..etc..etc.. http://lettherebelight-77.blogspot.com/bornagain77
March 9, 2010
March
03
Mar
9
09
2010
08:32 AM
8
08
32
AM
PDT
Similarly, individual genetic variations might not be much, but add them up across time, geography and populations and you get a world of diverse species
Individual genetic variation create a diversity of damage on average, not increase in integrated complexity. This has been empirically demonstrated in cobalt bomb labs that tried to accelerate muations. It will also be demonstrated, I predict, as we get more gene sequences. The presumption has been that natural selecton will filter out the bad. But there is plenty of empirical evidence to the contrary, and the cobalt bomb labs are a good example. Selection didn't spontaneously arise to help the creatures in the cobalt bomb labs. There is little reason to expect it will spontaneously arise with sufficient efficacy in the wild either. It is a specualtion with no empirical grounding. Electrical theories have large amounts of empirical grounding, as evidenced by the fact we are communicating via computers and internet. Regarding the original point by johnnyb, I'd argue we don't even need a special academic freedom bill. Showing the scientific method and contrasting it with Darwinism would be sufficient. Darwinism isn't science, it is story telling, not empirically verified science like theories of electrodynamics and quantum mechanics.scordova
March 9, 2010
March
03
Mar
9
09
2010
08:05 AM
8
08
05
AM
PDT
scordova, My apologies for assuming you are a biblical literalist. Your message is a good attempt to recenter the conversation, thank you. To the points of your message, the leap from academic freedom in general to Darwinian evolution in particular is the agenda of these bills as clear as can be. And then the slide from Darwinian evolution to Darwinism - is this just casual writing when you know there is a difference but don't care to be accurate, is it intentional equivocation, or do you think they are one and the same? Theories of electricitry would be great choices for comparison with evolution. (Yes, I am purposefully cutting back on your freighted Darwin centric language.) The movement of one electron doesn't amount to much, add a lot of them up, you get lightning. Not that we have a perfect explanation of lightning in every detail. Similarly, individual genetic variations might not be much, but add them up across time, geography and populations and you get a world of diverse species.Nakashima
March 9, 2010
March
03
Mar
9
09
2010
02:23 AM
2
02
23
AM
PDT
Mr JohnnyB, Yes, I am familiar with the Biblical rules for slavery. What you are referring to in the Hebrew Bible are the rules for how Jews should treat Jewish slaves. Non-Jewish slaves were slaves permanently, and Bible says nothing about the treatment of slaves in other nations. The NT is equally accepting of the institution. Wouldn't it have been easier to treat fellow Christians as brothers if you freed them? And what of non-Christian slaves? I think your hypothesis that Biblical slavery was not like that experienced in pre-Civil War America is wishful thinking. The Mosaic Law might have laid out a relatively compassionate institution, but the Prophets show by their criticisms of Israelite societies that the reality was not like that. The last part of your comment is the attitude that I find most interesting when it occurs in one person (and scordova, if this person is not you, I apologize) yom is yom is 24 hours, but 'ebed, well 'ebed needs to be interpreted. We "know" slavery is wrong even though the Bible accepts the institution, but the creation story must be taken literally because the Bible is the ultimate authority.Nakashima
March 9, 2010
March
03
Mar
9
09
2010
01:55 AM
1
01
55
AM
PDT
Remembering of course that slavery’s proponents also had religious motivations, I am fascinated that someone who is a biblical literalist about creation is so cavalier about slavery
Nakashima-san, Are you referring to me as a "biblical literalist". That's presumptuous of you since I've publicly said I'm not, I'm undecided. I don't think it appropriate to say I'm cavalier about slavery either. The issue is not me, my beliefs, or attitudes, but rather the modest proposal for academic freedom. I was merely pointing out the issue of students rights should not be derailed with irrelevancies such as the motivations of people involved in promoting bills. Even granting that freedom proponents might have ulterior motives, the existence of ulterior motives should not have bearing on whether we liberate students to learn the truth. The truth is Darwinian evolution can be critically compared to other theories in other scientific disciplines. I have an comparably modest proposal. We don't need to let the students decide whether Darwinism is true or not. I would encourage them to look at other scientific theories (like say theories of electricity), compare the theoretical arguments and empirical evidences in support of such theories, and then compare them with the theoretical and evidential support (or lack thereof) for Darwinism. They don't even need to decide if Darwinism is true, they merely are given the learn whether Darwinism is closer to operational science or story telling.scordova
March 8, 2010
March
03
Mar
8
08
2010
07:01 PM
7
07
01
PM
PDT
Toronto - Yes, and not only was it used for punishment, it was also used for welfare. The interesting thing about the system is that it allowed for both welfare and punishment in a way that didn't require the large overhead that ours do. In an entirely agrarian economy, there aren't a lot of extra resources for jails and welfare checks, and instead, slavery is the way we dealt with it. We wouldn't have Gitmo, we would have slaves. It is a perfectly legitimate question which way (or even another way) is more just, which is more efficient, and which is more effective. A good argument could be made that the Hebrew system was completely unjust. But it is good to approach the discussion without bringing in our modern categories and circumstances.johnnyb
March 8, 2010
March
03
Mar
8
08
2010
05:58 PM
5
05
58
PM
PDT
johnnyb @20, You make a good point about category errors where we try to map our current definition of a term to the way it was defined in a different one. The way you describe the slavery of the OT is almost the way chain gangs operated in the early part of the 20th century.Toronto
March 8, 2010
March
03
Mar
8
08
2010
01:31 PM
1
01
31
PM
PDT
Nakashima - Are you familiar with Biblical rules about slavery? It was basically used as an alternative to jails, was much more humane, and required that the slaves go free after a certain period. It wasn't beautiful, but it wasn't the same thing as 19th century slavery. 19th century slavery was condemned by Biblical literalists (such as Charles Hodge), who was not against the notion of slavery itself. In fact, under OT rules, if you permanently injure a slave (such as knocking out their tooth), they automatically go free. In addition, slaves were automatically freed after 6 years, and when they were freed, the owner had to give them food and clothing to start out with. In the NT, you were to treat all slaves as brothers. This is a common problem with Biblical interpretation - the word "slave" that we think of is not the same thing as "slave" in that time. It is certainly worthy of discussion whether the Hebrew system was good or bad, just or unjust, necessary or unnecessary, and the like, but it is a category error to make a simple equation of Hebrew slavery with 19th century Western slavery.johnnyb
March 8, 2010
March
03
Mar
8
08
2010
12:11 PM
12
12
11
PM
PDT
scordova, When there was a move to prohibit slavery, many of the freedom proponents were religiously motivated, does that fundamentally negate the fact that freedom was the right thing to have and that is independent of whether the motivation for freedom was religious or secular. Remembering of course that slavery's proponents also had religious motivations, I am fascinated that someone who is a biblical literalist about creation is so cavalier about slavery. We know slavery is morally bad via something independent of the revealed Word of God? I don't want to derail this thread's discussion, so let's just hold that thought until the next "There Exists An Objective Moral Code" thread.Nakashima
March 8, 2010
March
03
Mar
8
08
2010
07:07 AM
7
07
07
AM
PDT
Seversky:
The problems arise when teachers suggest or imply that ID or even the Book of Genesis have a scientific standing...
ID is based on observations and experiences. It can be objectively tested. Seversky's position, OTOH, is based on nothing but the refusal to allow the design inference at all costs. As for Creation well it correctly predicted the universe had a beginning and it correctly predicted reproductive isolation. That is two more predictions than Seversky's position has.Joseph
March 8, 2010
March
03
Mar
8
08
2010
05:21 AM
5
05
21
AM
PDT
Toronto:
If this is the case, would you be open to presenting evolution in Christian schools and allowing students to decide?
The theory of evolution is presented in Christian schools.Joseph
March 8, 2010
March
03
Mar
8
08
2010
05:00 AM
5
05
00
AM
PDT
"By singling out evolution for special attention, critics undermine their claim to be interested only in academic freedom." Darwinian Evolution is the only field that disallows critical thought. Therefore, your claim is invalid. "They merely reinforces the suspicion that this is just another tactic in the campaign by elements on the religious right to bring science to heel and make it subservient to their beliefs." No, you are projecting your worst fears into the valid argument made by JohnnyB. This way, you do not have to address the real issue and challenges facing Darwinism. This has nothing at all to do with religious beliefs. It has everything to do with academic freedom and the tyranny of a few against the many.DATCG
March 7, 2010
March
03
Mar
7
07
2010
10:26 PM
10
10
26
PM
PDT
School Choice is another answer. Allow tax dollars to follow children to schools chosen by the parents. It opens up competition, holds down cost and allows parents to protect and control how their children matures in a learning environment. One they agree with. Creeping centralized control has led to disaster across major cities and millions of children lost in decades of shame. Free our children, free their minds from centralized authority.DATCG
March 7, 2010
March
03
Mar
7
07
2010
09:46 PM
9
09
46
PM
PDT
JohnnyB, You make an eloquent argument. So do others. The problem is agenda set by the zealots of Darwinian religion have innoculated their beliefs from any outside critical commentary. The ACLU and judicial decisions swung the establishment clause 180 degrees in direction of atheism, a religion today with one a theological pillar being Darwinism. High priest of Darwinism now schedule a special day of resurrection for Darwin celebrated in churches. This is in every sense a religion. No different than Easter or celebrating a Saint. The problem today for Darwinist, is how NOT to look like a religion. A good team of lawyers might make a case Darwinism has become a cult religion due to recent church events all across America. This according to precedent sets dangerous grounds violationg church and state. Therefore, Darwinsm should not be allowed in schools due to Judicial interpretations. They are establishing a religion in our schools daily. The only step to take, is open the door back up to all religions. Or, allow liberty given us from the Constitution to question the theory, expose faults and problems. And discuss potentials, for and against unguided vs guided evolution. It is the best way children learn. Koonin expressed in one of his papers that the concept of Darwin's single TOL is failed as an overall heuristic tool. That the concept might be useful for teaching purposes to children. But I disagree. The truth is useful for teaching children. Not a failed idea no longer contributing to actual scientific education. If there are a forest of trees, then teach it. If there are problems and discoveries show them to be valid issues and flaws, then open them to discussion and debate. Dumbing down children until college is silly. It dulls minds, retards natural curiosity, especially for highly curious at a young age. Intrepidness is to be encouraged, not put off due to orthodoxy. The Darwinist are making the same mistakes Creationist made. By attempting to adhere to an untenable orthodoxy, they throw aspersions onto the whole field of study. They make it appear as a closed temple only to an elite and special few. They cloister themselves in pretentious ridicule of doubters to their own folly.DATCG
March 7, 2010
March
03
Mar
7
07
2010
09:21 PM
9
09
21
PM
PDT
SCordova, "Had we been dealing with reasonable people, there would have been much more academic freedom by now." Of course I agree. What has happened so far with academic freedom legislations, is that the writers of them have gone far out of their way to make the legislation reasonable. That some people object to this legislation, only shows that their motives come from something outside of scientific legitimacy and public interest. I've even found the odd atheist/darwinian who supports academic freedom legislation. Clearly some people in that camp can be reasonable, without interjecting the 'right' of Darwinism to never be questioned. I don't think the PubMed approach is the right way to go. I think that we ought to stay the course as it stands now. We have made inroads in several states, and the momentum does not appear to be ending soon. People want the truth. What is good for science ought to be the prime motivator of anyone involved in this issue. Clearly what is good for science is that science becomes transparent. This means that no theory can withstand scrutiny - not Darwinism, not ID, not quantum mechanics, not global warming - nothing. Everything must be reasonably evaluated, and we teach our students good science by making it so.CannuckianYankee
March 7, 2010
March
03
Mar
7
07
2010
07:37 PM
7
07
37
PM
PDT
johnnyb, Your proposal is comletely reasonable, but we aren't dealing with reasonable people. We're dealing with the likes of PZ Myers and Sam Harris. Had we been dealing with reasonable people, there would have been much more academic freedom by now. I think the fundamental problem is that the Darwinists will find any excuse to allow liberty and their political arms will resort to unethical means to maintain the status quo. The Darwinian paradigm takes precedence over students rights in their minds. They know free inquiry and academic freedom will erode their cultural advantage. Darwinian evolution cannot withstand being held to the same scientific standards which other theories (like Electro Dynamics and Quantum Mechanics) are held to. I think deep down the Darwinists know this, and even Coyne said as much. But they would rather perpetuate their ideas than let their ideas be subject to proper scientific scepticism. For the record, I'm ambivalent about teaching ID in public schools. I support the policy of "exploring evolution" as represented by the book of the same title.scordova
March 7, 2010
March
03
Mar
7
07
2010
03:16 PM
3
03
16
PM
PDT
All - The point about Pubmed is that Pubmed is a government agency. Therefore, any establishment clause issue with regards to teaching biology would also be an establishment clause issue with Pubmed. I am assuming that most scientists don't think that Pubmed is violating the establishment clause, though I could be wrong. If that is so, then maybe that's the cause of the problem - people in education are reading pubmed on the erroneous assumption that it is science. I would love to see the NCSE argue that one in a legislative session or in court. Basically, my ulterior motive would be to get the NCSE to be real - why is it that they think it is wrong to address points that are being discussed in the scientific literature, using a government-developed standard of scientific literature?johnnyb
March 7, 2010
March
03
Mar
7
07
2010
02:53 PM
2
02
53
PM
PDT
O'Leary @8,
You never get anywhere teaching if people are not allowed to voice genuine puzzles or questions or objections.
If this is the case, would you be open to presenting evolution in Christian schools and allowing students to decide?Toronto
March 7, 2010
March
03
Mar
7
07
2010
01:28 PM
1
01
28
PM
PDT
Medical Hypotheses is in PubMed, so this definition would allow all sorts of silly stuff through. I do, though, like the idea of defining physics to not be 'science'. The deeper point is over who gets to decide what counts as "science". Why should it be an NIH body who's remit certainly wasn't to define science? Do you know what criteria they used to decide what to index in PubMed?Heinrich
March 7, 2010
March
03
Mar
7
07
2010
01:06 PM
1
01
06
PM
PDT
SCordova at 7, and all: Students have the right to discuss what is on their minds, if education is the point of the exercise. You never get anywhere teaching if people are not allowed to voice genuine puzzles or questions or objections. For example, if the response to skepticism about Darwinian claims about butterfly evolution is "Most scientists think Darwin was right, and here ends the discussion" - well, so much the worse for most scientists, then. Obviously, something non-Darwinian is at work. It all comes from having a tax-funded salary, I guess.O'Leary
March 7, 2010
March
03
Mar
7
07
2010
12:31 PM
12
12
31
PM
PDT
By singling out evolution for special attention, critics undermine their claim to be interested only in academic freedom
I know of no one making that claim that they are ONLY interested in academic freedom. And even granting for the sake of argument that there are ulterior motives at work, the students still have the right to be told the truth. They have the right to know evolutionary theories are at the bottom of sciences pecking order, far closer to phrenology than to physics. That the ideas are speculative and possibly wrong and based more on storytelling than empirical facts. Students have the right to the truth.scordova
March 7, 2010
March
03
Mar
7
07
2010
12:01 PM
12
12
01
PM
PDT
the Darwin camp always says that they [freedom proponents] are about introducing religion into science classrooms
The pro-Darwin camp says that, but even if true that academic freedom fighters have ulterior motives, students still have the right to hear the truth. Whether the freedom fighters have ulterior motives or not is a separate issue. The issue is what is right. When there was a move to prohibit slavery, many of the freedom proponents were religiously motivated, does that fundamentally negate the fact that freedom was the right thing to have and that is independent of whether the motivation for freedom was religious or secular. The same applies here. Student have the right to know the truth. They have the right to know the difference between real science and Darwinism (which is not science, but story telling).scordova
March 7, 2010
March
03
Mar
7
07
2010
11:47 AM
11
11
47
AM
PDT
1 2 3 4

Leave a Reply