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A quick question for Dr. Liddle and other skeptics

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Over at The Skeptical Zone, Dr. Elizabeth Liddle has written a thought-provoking post, which poses an interesting ethical conundrum about the morality of creating sentient beings.

Dr. Liddle’s post was titled, Getting some stuff off my chest…., and its tone was remarkably conciliatory, as the following extracts reveal:

I don’t think that science has disproven, nor even suggests, that it is unlikely that an Intelligent Designer was responsible for the world, and intended it to come into existence.

I don’t think that science has, nor even can, prove that divine and/or miraculous intervention is impossible.

I think the world has properties that make it perfectly possible for an Intelligent Deity to “reach in” and tweak things to her liking – and that even if it didn’t, it would still be perfectly possible, given Omnipotence, just as a computer programmer can reach in and tweak the Matrix.

I don’t think that science falsifies the idea of an omnipotent, omniscient deity – at all.

Apparently, Dr. Liddle’s main reason for disbelieving in an “external disembodied intelligent and volitional deity” is a philosophical rather than a scientific one: she is “no longer persuaded that either intelligence or volition are possible in the absence of a material substrate.” Fair enough; but Dr. Liddle should tell us what she means by the word “material.” Does she mean: (a) composed of visible and/or tangible “stuff”; (b) having some (non-zero) quantity of mass-energy; (c) spatially extended, and inside our universe; (d) spatially extended, and inside some universe; (e) composed of parts; (f) behaving in accordance with the laws of Nature; or (g) behaving in accordance with some invariant set of mathematical laws? What is Dr. Liddle’s definition of “matter,” and why does Dr. Liddle believe that an intelligent being has to conform to that definition?

But the most interesting part of her post came in two paragraphs where she made it clear that while she regarded the notion of an omnipotent, omniscient deity as quite compatible with science, it was ludicrous to suggest that this deity might also be omnibenevolent:

I do think that the world is such that IF there is an omnipotent, omniscient deity, EITHER that deity does not have human welfare as a high priority OR she has very different ideas about what constitutes human welfare from the ones that most people hold (and as are exemplified, for example, in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights), OR she has deliberately chosen to let the laws of her created world play out according to her ordained rules, regardless of the effects of those laws on the welfare of human beings, perhaps trusting that we would value a comprehensible world more than one with major causal glitches. In my case, her trust was well-placed…

I don’t think that it follows that, were we to find incontrovertible evidence of a Intelligent Creator (for instance, an unambiguous message in English configured in a nebula in some remote region of space, or on the DNA of an ant encased in amber millions of years ago) that that would mandate us in any way to worship that designer. On the basis of her human rights record I’d be more inclined to summon her to The Hague.

This is a little inconsistent. On the one hand, Dr. Liddle declares that she values “a comprehensible world” with no “causal glitches”; but at the same time, Dr. Liddle wishes that the Intelligent Creator, if she exists, would do more to promote human rights and alleviate suffering.

At any rate, here is the question I would like to ask Dr. Liddle. Suppose you were the Intelligent Creator of a world containing life. Suppose also that you have decided that your world should contain no “causal glitches” whatsoever: miraculous interventions are out of the question. Suppose, finally, that the laws of your world happen to dictate that any sentient beings in it will suffer and die, and suppose, also, that death in your world is absolutely final, with no hereafter. That goes for sapient beings as well: in your world, you only get one innings.

The life-forms that currently exist in your world include not only micro-organisms, but also complex animals, rather like our insects, which are capable of a rich variety of behavioral feats, but lack any kind of phenomenal consciousness: they react to environmental stimuli in a very sophisticated manner, but for them, there is no subjective feeling of “what it is like” to experience those stimuli. So far, everything is unfolding in accordance with your pre-ordained program.

Here’s my question for Dr. Liddle, and for skeptical readers. Given the above constraints, would you regard it as immoral to be the author of a program that eventually resulted in the appearance of:

(a) sentient beings capable of feeling pain, but with no self-awareness whatsoever;
(b) sentient beings with some rudimentary self-awareness;
(c) sapient beings capable of reasoning and language, as well as a rich sense of self-awareness?

Putting it another way, would it be better for an Intelligent Creator not to create a world of sentient (and/or self-aware and/or sapient) beings, than to create a world in which sentient / self-aware / sapient beings existed, but where all of these beings would undergo suffering (and where some of them would undergo a considerable degree of suffering), caused by the inexorable operation of the laws of Nature in that world? Or putting it as baldly as possible: if you were the Creator, would you deny us all the gift of existence, on the grounds that it would be immoral to create beings like us?

If your answer is that it would be immoral to create beings like us, then I would ask you to set out, as clearly as possible, the ethical principle which would be violated by the creation of beings like us.

And if it’s not the existence of suffering per se that you object to, but the degree of suffering, where do you draw the line, and why?

Over to you, Dr. Liddle…

Comments
"The answer, Dr. Torley, is that god (or the intelligent designer) doesn’t exist." Asserts JLAfan2001, without a shred of evidence. And without acknowledging the serious issues posed by Elizabeth's comment . . .Eric Anderson
January 20, 2014
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Apologies vjtorley, for allowing myself to follow the OT posts above for a moment. You raise an interesting question. When a creator decides to create a being with sentience, with a separate will, the creator at that point crosses the line of being able to "cause" the created being to avoid all pain, all sorrow, all acts of intrusion by one being on another. One of the great ironies of those who disbelieve in God (not putting Elizabeth in that category), is that they are so arrogantly cocksure about what God would be like if God did exist. As for this statement:
I do think that the world is such that IF there is an omnipotent, omniscient deity, EITHER that deity does not have human welfare as a high priority OR she has very different ideas about what constitutes human welfare from the ones that most people hold (and as are exemplified, for example, in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights), OR she has deliberately chosen to let the laws of her created world play out according to her ordained rules, regardless of the effects of those laws on the welfare of human beings, perhaps trusting that we would value a comprehensible world more than one with major causal glitches. In my case, her trust was well-placed…
There is much in this I agree with -- nearly all. For some reason, however, Elizabeth can't allow these possibilities to be fully examined, because in the next paragraph she calls for the creator to be brought before the Hague. Though it may not be a satisfactory answer to all listeners, the believer, at least, acknowledges the well-placed scriptural caution that "My ways are not your ways; my thought not your thoughts." The idea that a creator is somehow obligated to create a perpetual paradise, without sorrow, pain, and the challenges of life, is not only unsupportable philosophically, but is a rather juvenile, childish, simplistic, facile view. All that said, I do agree with Elizabeth's smaller point that the mere existence of a creator does not require worship -- at least not in the sense of traditional theistic worship. But it does require an acknowledgement of the creator's existence, an acknowledgement of the creator's capabilities (insofar as they are evidenced in the creation) and that they are vastly superior to our own, an acknowledgement that one owes one's existence, one's life, all the good experiences (yes, along with the bad ones) to the creator's creative act. So a form of acknowledgement and deep respect is at least required. Even gratitude. Of course it is to everyone individually to decide whether to also offer allegiance.Eric Anderson
January 20, 2014
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It started as a post referring to Lizzy, but within 20 comments the christians have all turned on themselves, arguing about god. I think you had better master the basics of your own beliefs before criticizing the heathens.Graham2
January 20, 2014
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It's funny how the question was directed towards the atheists and only the theists are debating about it. The answer, Dr. Torley, is that god (or the intelligent designer) doesn't exist. So what's to answer? Why play this game? Now we atheists can go get a beer, watch the hockey game and enjoy life while you theists continue to debate something that doesn't matter. It's kinda cute actually. Like watching a group of kids arguing over how Santa can fit down the chimneys or how he can deliver all those presents in one night.JLAfan2001
January 20, 2014
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Mapou, Please reconsider these statements: 1. We can’t know much about God that isn’t revealed to us. 2. We can’t understand much about God that isn’t first put into anthropomorphic terms that we can relate to---our heads would explode. The Bible says that in the beginning (before mass-energy, space, and time came into existence), there was the Word (logos), from which all creation came into existence. Logos is reason or logic, and it's personified in the Bible: Jesus is the Word of God. -QQuerius
January 20, 2014
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RexTugwell:
God is a spirit . . .
Sure He is. God is also love. At least that is what the scripture says. :) Again, rather than relying on a single verse or a single statement, we have to go through the kind of exercise I suggested if we really want to know what the weight of scripture says.Eric Anderson
January 20, 2014
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niwrad: Does God have a body, or is God merely a body? Do you have a body, or are you merely a body? I would agree that God is not merely a body. But the idea that God cannot have a body is based on some questionable interpretations and assumptions and, indeed, goes against the weight of scripture. I recommend it as an illuminating exercise for anyone interested in this issue to do the following: Take a piece of paper, draw a line down the middle, label the left side "God has no body," label the right side "God has a body." Keep the piece of paper in your scriptures for a year. When you are reading and come across a relevant verse, put it on the appropriate side. No extra interpretations, no quibbling, no justifications, or second guessing (the interpretation and the quibbling can come later). Just keep an open mind, read the plain text on its face, and put it on the appropriate side. After a while I think many people will be a bit surprised about what they find.Eric Anderson
January 20, 2014
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RexTugwell:
Andre is correct. God is a spirit; nothing about Him is material.
Sure, God is spirit. But do you have a scriptural definition for the word 'spirit'? I would love to see where in the scriptures spirit is defined as being immaterial. I would change my mind in a jiffy and immediately repent from my erroneous ways. Look, there is no doubt in my mind that the immaterial exists and that our souls are immaterial. The immaterial soul is what gives us our consciousness and identity. I believe the same is true of Yahweh. It just so happens that our bodies are made of normal matter (the dust of the earth) and God's body isn't. The Hebrew and Greek words for 'spirit' are frequently translated as 'wind'. Did you know that? Just because something is not made of ordinary matter does not mean it is immaterial or non-physical.Mapou
January 20, 2014
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Andre is correct. God is a spirit; nothing about Him is material.RexTugwell
January 20, 2014
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Andre:
Mapou Here are few things that you can go think about what God is or not….
I've already thought about them, many times.
1) God cannot be material because matter can be destroyed.
If you're the most powerful being in the universe, nobody can destroy you.
2) If God is unchanging he cannot consist of matter, because matter can change.
You don't understand what the scriptures mean by "God is unchanging." There are several instances in the old testament where Yahweh changes his mind (repents). I can quote chapter and verse, if necessary.
3) God cannot be made of parts because parts can break down.
Why? Do you have an understanding of all possible types of matter? When Moses asked to see Yahweh face to face, Yahweh told him that he would die if he looked at God directly. It follows that God is made of some matter that can radiate energy. PS. I assume you're a Christian. I, too, am a Christian.Mapou
January 20, 2014
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niwrad:
It is likely you have in mind the mathematical infinity, which has absolutely nothing to do with the true Unlimited Metaphysical Infinite. I don’t understand why you so forcefully deny a priori the concept of the Total Whole containing all Possibilities, which is the more universal principle of all.
This is a bunch of dreamed up mumbo jumbo, in my opinion. None of it has any relation to reality or logic. Sorry.Mapou
January 20, 2014
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Mapou #11 "The concept of infinity is pure unmitigated nonsense." It is likely you have in mind the mathematical infinity, which has absolutely nothing to do with the true Unlimited Metaphysical Infinite. I don't understand why you so forcefully deny a priori the concept of the Total Whole containing all Possibilities, which is the more universal principle of all. About, I would suggest you to study at least René Guénon’s "The Multiple States of the Being". Eventually, after your reading, we can continue the discussion. Given my English, it is unthinkable I can summarize it here.niwrad
January 20, 2014
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We can't know much about God that isn't revealed to us. We can't understand much about God that isn't first put into terms that we can relate to. The Bible says that in the beginning (before mass-energy, space, and time came into existence), there was the Word (logos), from which all creation came into existence. The Bible also says that God is spirit and must be worshipped in spirit and truth. And finally, Dr. Liddle might want to consider the letter written by Ya'akov (James), in which he says, "You believe that God is one; you do well. The demons also believe---and they shudder." And even more finally, Dr. Liddle might be encouraged to know that almost 2,000 years ago, Rabbi Shaul (aka the apostle Paul) wrote to the church in Galatia that "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." -QQuerius
January 20, 2014
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The universe is zero compared to the Infiniteness of the Principle.
niwrad, I'm sorry but these are just ideas with no foundation other than themselves. The concept of infinity is pure unmitigated nonsense. In fact, you came close to refuting it in the quoted sentence above. Compared to infinity, everything is infinitely small. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the problem with infinity: compared to infinity, everything is both finite and infinite at the same time. The only reason that we, as a species, continue to talk about infinity as a possibility, is that doctrines must be supported at all costs, the truth be damned. Doctrinairism is the enemy and I, for one, rebel against it.Mapou
January 20, 2014
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drc466 I have to agree with you in #7, What I have come to understand about those that are angry with God about suffering is just their very own deep rooted anger that He gave them free will.Andre
January 20, 2014
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Mapou Here are few things that you can go think about what God is or not.... 1) God cannot be material because matter can be destroyed. 2) If God is unchanging he cannot consist of matter, because matter can change. 3) God cannot be made of parts because parts can break down.Andre
January 20, 2014
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Mapou #6 "Does God have to be immaterial?" Matter is a property/condition/limit of the universe. The universe is the manifestation of the Principle I speak about in #5. The universe is zero compared to the Infiniteness of the Principle. Therefore to say that the Principle is material is like to attribute a limit to what is Unlimited. It is like attributing zeroness to the Infinite.niwrad
January 20, 2014
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This seems like a fairly simple rehash of the problem of the existence of evil, no? Like this hasn't been rehashed ad nauseam over thousands of years? At least she claims to be open to the concept of Deity. I wish people who rule out God because people suffer would at least acknowledge the fact that theologians have addressed this, repeatedly. Because they have free will (hmm, that might relate to the evil issue), they are free to disagree, but it would be refreshing for them to say they disagree instead of pretending no responses exist.drc466
January 20, 2014
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Dr. Liddle:
I don’t myself, any more, believe in some external disembodied intelligent and volitional deity, simply because I am no longer persuaded that either intelligence or volition are possible in the absence of a material substrate.
Well, well. This is interesting. As surprising as this may sound, I agree with Dr. Liddle on this one: I fully agree that there can be no intelligence without a material brain. But that does not make me an atheist. Why should it? Does God have to be immaterial? Is that a law of nature? Who ordered that?Mapou
January 20, 2014
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Mapou #1 "God's omnipotence" is the theological equivalent of what in metaphysics is the Total Possibility=Supreme Principle, which, having no limit, encloses all possibilities, and outside which there is nothing. "God's omniscience" theologically points to the fact that such Infinite Principle is also Supreme Knowledge. Not only such Principle is perfectly consistent with logic, but it is also the highest a priori Primum Esse which all things come from. Mapou #2 Here you are right, indeed given what I said above, to speak of God "male/female" is nonsense.niwrad
January 20, 2014
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Dr. Liddle's piece is insufferably self-righteous, as if it were coming from a closet theist who professes to be an atheist only because she has a bone to pick with a God that she hates. Her repeated assertion that God is female is what exposes her deep gender-based resentment. Why do people insist on doing their laundry in public?Mapou
January 20, 2014
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I don’t think that science has disproven, nor even suggests, that it is unlikely that an Intelligent Designer was responsible for the world, and intended it to come into existence.
That would be because science has shown it is very likely an Intelligent Designer was responsible for the world and our existence. And if you really think about it the materialistic explanation boils down to nothing but sheer dumb luck- cosmic collisions and accumulations of genetic accidents and all. So if one seriously considers the options as to our existence, materialsim loses.Joe
January 20, 2014
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How did Dr. Liddle determined that God was female?Mapou
January 20, 2014
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she made it clear that while she regarded the notion of an omnipotent, omniscient deity as quite compatible with science,
If by 'omnipotent' and 'omniscient' we mean 'infinitely powerful' and 'infinitely knowledgeable', neither concept is compatible with simple logic, let alone science.Mapou
January 20, 2014
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