Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

A Word About Our Moderation Policy

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Some commenters have raised questions regarding the propriety of recent posts and UD’s moderation policy. UD’s moderation policy is fairly simple: As a general rule, so long as your comment is not defamatory profane, or a vicious personal attack, you can say pretty much what you want. We have no interest in censoring viewpoints, because we believe ID is true and consequently in any full and fair debate we will win — and if we don’t win we either need to learn to debate better or change our position. Don’t get me wrong. I’m not opening this site up to nasty juvenile name-calling fests like one see so often at Panda’s Thumb.  But if you keep your comments restricted to ideas and not attacking people, you should have no problems passing muster here.

What about the “God-bashing” and the defenses of God that have appeared in these pages? God can take care of Himself. We at UD feel no need to protect Him from defamation. Bash away. Those who are offended by (or disagree with) the bashing are welcome to post such defenses as they deem appropriate. There are limits, however. This site is not intended to be a forum for extensive religious debates. Religious issues inevitably come up from time to time and people should feel free to discuss them from both sides when they do. But the moderators will exercise their judgment and gavel discussions that stray too far a field from the purpose of this site for too long.

I personally find the God-bashing disturbing. So why do I allow it? As one of my colleagues has aptly said, the wiser course, when someone attacks God is to let those UD commenters who are theists respond to the charges. Our readers will then be in a position to see: (1) that UD, unlike the Darwinists, doesn’t ban or censor ideas; and (2) that theism in general and Christianity in particular is quite capable of defending itself against lies, distortions, illogical arguments, and misunderstandings. Our role is not to censor ideas but to provide a forum where hard questions can be discussed calmly, fully, and fairly, and we trust that when that happens truth will prevail.

Certainly there is risk to this approach. Some will reject truth and embrace error. But the consequences of pursuing the alternative course – ignoring or even running from the hard questions – would be far worse.

Finally, some have asked whether we should even discuss “peripheral issues” at UD, such as Darwin’s racism or the implications of ID for the theodicy. This site is devoted not only to scientific theories of origins, but also to the metaphysical and moral implications of those theories. Plainly BOTH Darwinism and ID have implications beyond the science. Certainly Darwinsts like “intellectually fulfilled” atheist Richard Dawkins understand the metaphysical implications of Darwinism and talk about those implications ad nauseum. What hypocritical balderdash for anyone to suggest a double standard prohibiting those of us with a different point of view from doing the exact same thing from our perspective – and we will continue to do so.

Comments
bFast,
I give you the human HAR1F gene.
Do you have any evidence whatsoever that HAR1F is the product of intelligent design? Or are you refering to the fact that some people have said "it's an incredible amount of change to have happened in a few million years" in relation to HAR1F? In fact, the researchers who created the original paper have analyses that show signs of selection for variations in the gene; they have patterns of expression in the brain; they have potential interactions laid out; they specifically state that there are good questions to ask about the specific function of HAR1F. I would note that Jonathan Wells wrote "Why Darwinism is doomed" in September 2006. http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52166
So after 150 years, Darwinists are still looking for evidence – any evidence, no matter how skimpy – to justify their speculations. The latest hype over the "brain evolution gene" unwittingly reveals just how underwhelming the evidence for their view really is.
Since that article there have been many new papers regarding HAR1F. Since "the latest hype" has faded, people have got stuck in and started to work it out. What has Wells done since then with regard to HAR1F? Nothing at all. A example: Distinctive structures between chimpanzee and human in noncoding RNA
The identification of human accelerated region 1 (HAR1) in the human genome is a recent discovery (Pollard et al. 2006a,b). The noncoding HAR1F and HAR1R RNAs, which contain the HAR1 region, are localized in the neocortex but nothing is known about their function. The salient finding of our work is the unequivocal derivation of two distinct, experimentally derived secondary structure models for human and chimpanzee HAR1 RNAs.
Would you like to claim the noncoding HAR1F and HAR1R RNAs as the product of intelligent design? Even though we know nothing of their function? They might be preventing everybody from being 100x more intelligent. We simply don't know. Yet I suspect that you would point and say "design" already. Many more here: http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&scoring=r&q=HAR1F&as_ylo=2007&btnG=Search The only paper referencing HAR1F and "intelligent design" is in fact a book and it is not supportive. So, you got any actual evidence? So, bFast, make your case in your own words or not, as you prefer. But I see no research by anybody on your side into HAR1F that is going on. Can you show me that there is? Or is this another case where all research in fact unwittingly supports intelliegent design? How convenient if so. Or is it the lack of definitive answers (so far) that supports your case? Anything positive to prove your case? Disproving X does not prove or offer support for Z you know...George L Farquhar
March 13, 2009
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Mike Gene at Design Matrix has an interesting post where he talks about a study on “A Disconfirmation Bias in the Evaluation of Arguments,” Two groups of people with opposing beliefs on an issue where given evidence and the result was that they became even more polarized. It follows that discussions on forums such as these will have little effect in changing people's minds. Are we spinning our wheels here? It's a great read by the way.alaninnont
March 13, 2009
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I'm just wondering Clive, Let's say a person such as, oh, PZ Meyers wanted to post here and he kept his language cordial and non-insulting, would he be welcome to post? I would be interested in reading what he has to say without all the hyperbole that is a part of his language in his own blog. I might enjoy seeing how others here would challenge him. Maybe I'm ignorant, but has he ever posted here?CannuckianYankee
March 13, 2009
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GLF And yet useful results are generated, daily. Really? Give me 10 examples from last year. That shouldn't be challenge since there should be at least 365 to choose from.DaveScot
March 13, 2009
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George That was a different DaveScot. He's no longer here. I killed him and buried the body in a shallow unmarked grave. Happy now?DaveScot
March 13, 2009
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Clive I'm sorry if I wrote something that got your panties in a bunch.DaveScot
March 13, 2009
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Rob People trust medical doctors because they can get sued and lose their license if they screw up. What happens to a tenured evolutionary biologist if he's wrong? By the way, what grade are you in?DaveScot
March 13, 2009
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No double standard, I have deleted some of Davescots comments since I've been moderating. I was not around to ban Bob O'H, I may not have banned him, but from what I've seen him say so far, I certainly won't re-instate him--and that is a decision based solely on the grounds of what he commented, and has nothing to do with anyone else.Clive Hayden
March 13, 2009
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JayM, "If the goal is to encourage open discussion and thereby strengthen the ID arguments, the only behavior that matters is what is exhibited here." I appreciate your input. Open discussion is encouraged. Insults are not, no matter where they happen.Clive Hayden
March 13, 2009
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Kellog, In answer to your question, if that person's "behavior" on the other forum is directly insulting to those on this forum--yes. I won't re-instate Bob O'H, he's insulting. This is obvious. I don't see why it needs to be defended.Clive Hayden
March 13, 2009
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George L Farquhar, I give you the human HAR1F gene.bFast
March 13, 2009
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russ
But it appears to skeptics that modern evolutionary theory and practice is long on story-telling,
And yet useful results are generated, daily.
philosophical assumptions and consensus arguments
If by "philosophical assumptions" you mean "only attempt to measure the measurable", i.e. philosophical naturalism then yes, it is "long on that". You are free to use other philosophical assumptions. When your Xience (other type of science) produces useful results please do say.
and short on “experimentation, observation and measurement”.
There are two point five million hits on google scholar for "evolution". What do you think the vast majority of the results are? There are hundreds of books published. It would take you or me several years to get up to speed with current understanding at a technical level.
When data is measured, it always seems to be forced into the standard theory, whether it fits well or not.
Does it really? Can you give me an example of what you mean? Junk DNA not being junk after all perhaps? The "unexpected" complexity of the cell? Am I getting close?George L Farquhar
March 13, 2009
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Not to speak for R0b, but I think he may have been making the point that the result of experiment, observation and measurement is more reliable than common sense assumption.
But it appears to skeptics that modern evolutionary theory and practice is long on story-telling, philosophical assumptions and consensus arguments and short on "experimentation, observation and measurement". When data is measured, it always seems to be forced into the standard theory, whether it fits well or not.russ
March 13, 2009
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(What I find interesting is people who generally favor their own common sense over the consensus of scientists, and yet defer to science when something important is on the line, like their own medical health.)
I've received multiple incorrect diagnoses delivered with the utmost confidence by physicians who meant well, but prejudged my case. I think evolutionary biology contains at least as much "art" as [clinical] medical science.russ
March 13, 2009
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He who knows only his own side of the case, knows little of that. ~ John Stuart Mill The wise man always throws himself on the side of his assailants. It is more his interest than it is theirs to find his weak point. ~ Ralph Waldo Emersonbevets
March 13, 2009
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Clive, are you kidding? A person's behavior on every forum must match their expected behavior on this forum? It would be counterproductive to open an investigation on everybody who comments here. At least one person who used to moderate here has said far worse about the same person, and that person still posts here. (I'm not going to provide the link because such witch-hunts should be beside the point.) Isn't it simpler, more straightforward, and more decent to say "what you elsewhere is your business, but when you're in my house, you'll play by my rules"?David Kellogg
March 13, 2009
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I echo Arthur's sentiments in 27. If the goal is to encourage open discussion and thereby strengthen the ID arguments, the only behavior that matters is what is exhibited here. Aside from spamming or truly crude language, there should be no reason to ban anyone. Doing so suggests that we don't have the courage of our convictions and can't stand up to criticism. JJJayM
March 13, 2009
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Clive, Davescot has said some things off this blog that are worse then anything I've seen Bob O'H say so far in "the other place". http://ptet.blogspot.com/2008/02/davescot-humiliates-denyse-oleary.html So why the double standard?George L Farquhar
March 13, 2009
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Arthur, calling Denyse names is abusive, insulting and obscene. I won't repeat it here, because it doesn't even merit mentioning except to show that his comments are those things. I know, I'm familiar with the charge that a commenter "should" be able to hurl insults as long as their done somewhere else, and that commenting privileges "should" still be granted here by the insulted--it's an amusing bit of reasoning. As if how someone "actually" acts doesn't matter. I just, I don't know, I just can't seem to bring myself to agree that vile behavior should be masked here and unleashed there, and consider that acceptable. It would be like knowing that your wife were cheating on you, yet as long as you didn't see it, she should still be able to do it and get all of the privileges that come from you as a husband.Clive Hayden
March 13, 2009
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Thanks for the response, Clive. I must be missing something in Bob's posts. They are not abusive, insulting or obscene. It is also interesting that a poster's conduct elsewhere should affect his ability to post here. Never mind, with my obvious lack of decency, perhaps I can be excused for asking.Arthur Smith
March 13, 2009
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Arthur, From reading the comments by Bob O'H on the other thread, he should not be re-instated. This should be obvious to anyone with a modicum of decency.Clive Hayden
March 13, 2009
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Not to speak for R0b, but I think he may have been making the point that the result of experiment, observation and measurement is more reliable than common sense assumption.Arthur Smith
March 13, 2009
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Rob (#12): "Personally, I trust science more than common sense...." Honest admission that evolution makes no sense. This is why Creationism and IDism thrives. RayR. Martinez
March 13, 2009
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Barry Arrington: "I personally find the God-bashing disturbing. So why do I allow it? As one of my colleagues has aptly said, the wiser course, when someone attacks God is to let those UD commenters who are theists respond to the charges. Our readers will then be in a position to see: (1) that UD, unlike the Darwinists, doesn’t ban or censor ideas; and (2) that theism in general and Christianity in particular is quite capable of defending itself against lies, distortions, illogical arguments, and misunderstandings. Our role is not to censor ideas but to provide a forum where hard questions can be discussed calmly, fully, and fairly, and we trust that when that happens truth will prevail." God bashing is simply the greatest evidence against evolution: it exposes the intent and result of accepting evolution; and it exposes Christian evolutionists to be horribly ignorant, fools and buffoons, or wolves (= Atheists) in sheeps clothing. RayR. Martinez
March 13, 2009
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ROb: "Personally, I trust science more than common sense, but to each his own." You mean if something that claims to be scientific but makes no common sense.....? This is why we need philosophers of science to examine "scientific" ideas and to tell us when an argument is circular or question begging, etc...they should make some common sense, and if they don't, then we should question their validity. For a lot of people Darwinism is invalid because it doesn't pass the common sense test. BTW, "people who generally favor their own common sense over the consensus of scientists...." are often keenly aware that consensus is not a test for truth or validity - even if it is so-called experts forming that consensus. Look at our economy as an example of how consensus often leads to wrong thinking and conclusions.CannuckianYankee
March 13, 2009
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R0b, You spit in the face of people who work to provide you the society you count on - while following the elitist idea that (S)cience is simply smarter than the guy who plows the corn you eat, as well as the one who drives the bread truck and climbs the telephone pole. "I trust science more than common sense" The fact is: its a twisted ideological fallacy. It was common sense that gave you relativity, plate techntonics, Newtonian mechanics, AND EVERY OTHER SCIENTIFIC DISCOVERY EVER MADE. Enjoy the view from on high.Upright BiPed
March 13, 2009
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A recent comment elsewhere by Bob O'H for Clive HaydenArthur Smith
March 13, 2009
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Rob (#7): "How’s ID doing in forums where there are official judges, like....the courtroom?" Since Judge Jones has been a Darwinist at least since college, his "ruling" was predetermined. RayR. Martinez
March 13, 2009
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In case anyone thought I was being partisan, I also note That Professor John Davison would like to be able to post here. He has tried to register, according to comments on his own blog, but was unable to complete the registration procedure. As he is now 80 years old, it is possible he had difficulty with the process. I am sure he would appreciate someone (Clive?)emailing him a password. His contact detailsArthur Smith
March 13, 2009
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Well, that didn't work. I give up. My point was, I agree with Ray.Adel DiBagno
March 13, 2009
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