Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

A Word About Our Moderation Policy

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Some commenters have raised questions regarding the propriety of recent posts and UD’s moderation policy. UD’s moderation policy is fairly simple: As a general rule, so long as your comment is not defamatory profane, or a vicious personal attack, you can say pretty much what you want. We have no interest in censoring viewpoints, because we believe ID is true and consequently in any full and fair debate we will win — and if we don’t win we either need to learn to debate better or change our position. Don’t get me wrong. I’m not opening this site up to nasty juvenile name-calling fests like one see so often at Panda’s Thumb.  But if you keep your comments restricted to ideas and not attacking people, you should have no problems passing muster here.

What about the “God-bashing” and the defenses of God that have appeared in these pages? God can take care of Himself. We at UD feel no need to protect Him from defamation. Bash away. Those who are offended by (or disagree with) the bashing are welcome to post such defenses as they deem appropriate. There are limits, however. This site is not intended to be a forum for extensive religious debates. Religious issues inevitably come up from time to time and people should feel free to discuss them from both sides when they do. But the moderators will exercise their judgment and gavel discussions that stray too far a field from the purpose of this site for too long.

I personally find the God-bashing disturbing. So why do I allow it? As one of my colleagues has aptly said, the wiser course, when someone attacks God is to let those UD commenters who are theists respond to the charges. Our readers will then be in a position to see: (1) that UD, unlike the Darwinists, doesn’t ban or censor ideas; and (2) that theism in general and Christianity in particular is quite capable of defending itself against lies, distortions, illogical arguments, and misunderstandings. Our role is not to censor ideas but to provide a forum where hard questions can be discussed calmly, fully, and fairly, and we trust that when that happens truth will prevail.

Certainly there is risk to this approach. Some will reject truth and embrace error. But the consequences of pursuing the alternative course – ignoring or even running from the hard questions – would be far worse.

Finally, some have asked whether we should even discuss “peripheral issues” at UD, such as Darwin’s racism or the implications of ID for the theodicy. This site is devoted not only to scientific theories of origins, but also to the metaphysical and moral implications of those theories. Plainly BOTH Darwinism and ID have implications beyond the science. Certainly Darwinsts like “intellectually fulfilled” atheist Richard Dawkins understand the metaphysical implications of Darwinism and talk about those implications ad nauseum. What hypocritical balderdash for anyone to suggest a double standard prohibiting those of us with a different point of view from doing the exact same thing from our perspective – and we will continue to do so.

Comments
Kairosfocus:
Mr. Simons
That's Dr. Simons to you. I usually don't bother, but people at this site seem to be excessively impressed by the title.
[SNIP a lengthy, irrelevant paragraph] Now, on this thread’s red herring, I have long since put up, a specific test case on the central claim of modern design theory, that complex specified information [algorithmically and/or linguistically functionally specific form] is an observationally tested, empirically reliable sign of intelligence.
I went to the linked site, and found a lengthy piece dealing with probability that completely missed a central concept of the theory of evolution. Think over what the 'Weasel' program is designed to demonstrate and consider the significance of it regarding probabilistic estimates of likelihood.
The matter is eminently feasible of testing,
and completely useless as it ignores selection entirely.
In that light, Mr Simon et al, can you show me a credible instance where CSI, especially in the relevant subset, FSCI, has originated as a product of lucky noise and/or mere mechanical forces, without intelligent guidance or intervention?
I am still waiting to see a clear example of the determination of CSI in a natural situation or a clear definition. Yes, I have read Dembski's paper. No, it is not useable.
thus, to use the Design theory explanatory filter to look at entities aspect by aspect
Please give me an example of using the Design theory explanatory filter on a natural object. As far as I know, it would be a first if you succeeded. Joseph:
OK I have asked you more than once what pro-ID literture you have read. I have even provided a link to the recommended pro-ID literature. YOU have never responded to my question.
When I first realised that there was such a thing I read a book on the subject. I do not recall it's name because it was rubbish that read like it was written by a theologian trying to do science. Since then, I've read a few of Dembski's and Behe's papers and I've been following the discussions here and elsewhere for several years. Nothing has given me the impression that there is anything of substance hidden in the fog. Now, what have you read on modern evolutionary theory? What do you know about evaluating a scientific theory?
The SAME goes for CSI- it is defined and the definition is more rigorous than anything your position has.
It is? So tell me, how much CSI does a human have? Does a dark-skinned person have more CSI than a light-skinned person, the same or less? I'm guessing more, because a light-skinned person is unable to produce melanin. How does the CSI of a human compare with the CSI of an oak tree or a goldfish? Before we get on to that, perhaps I should ask what units are used to measure CSI?
So again all YOU have to do to refute the premise is to demonstrate that nature, operating freely can account for CSI as it is currently defined. However to do that you have to stop whining and actuall do some work.
The only 'definitions' of CSI I've seen have come from Dembski's fog-enshrouded works. Please could you give me a brief, clear description of what it is and how it is measured. As an aside, I've always wondered what people here imagine ID 'scientists' do with their time. For example, what equipment do they need in their labs?
And why is what worked throughout history to falsify the design inference not any good for ID?
Other claims have been relatively well-defined whereas IDers make an enormous number of different claims that can, individually, that are gradually being nibbled away at. Remember when the mammalian blood-clotting system was the poster-child for ID? However, IDers are careful to never make a prediction that would cast doubt on ID in its entirety.
[Addressed to David Kellogg]All you have to do is show us an example of cumulative selection.
You mean like the steady improvement in the yield of wheat varieties over the past 100 years?
Then I suggest you get an education.
That's why I'm asking you for clarification, something you seem unable to do.
Not everyone has the capabilities to deal with science.
I completely agree. Notice how some people are unable to grasp the basic concept that a scientific hypothesis must make falsifiable predictions, preferably ones that can be ascertained using existing techniques and within the next few years. BTW, I have more publications in refereed scientific journals that the entire ID-directed output of ID 'scientists'.
Could you give an example of an object that has been reduced to matter, energy, chance and necessity and demonstrate how it was done? Lightning- it was once thought to be from the “gods”. Now science has demonstrated there aren’t any “gods” hurling lightning bolts.
Oh no. To use your kind of arguments back to you, no-one has ever shown that the path taken by lightning was not guided. Who caused the electrons to gather together in the first place? What determines just when the lightning takes place if it is not guided? What is an electron anyway if it is not a manifestation of a higher power? Science has merely demonstrated part of the process through which the gods act. I'm asking once again, please fill in the blanks: “If design is true then we should observe ________. If we don’t observe _______ our theory is at risk of disconfirmation.” An alternative for you: I am unable to translate "to refute ID all one has to do is DEMONSTRATE that the observed CSI and IC can be accounted for via matter, energy, chance and necessity" into a practical experiment. Could you suggest one that follows from this? I assume that, as you have thought about this a lot, this will be a trivial matter for you.Richard Simons
March 22, 2009
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Re: Clive @330 and 331: You have banned RB for remarks made on a completely different forum? I see nothing in the moderation policy you posted that supports that decision. In fact, Barry Arrington claimed that PZ Myers would be welcome here as long as he was polite, and Myers has been much harsher than RB. In fact, many of the regulars here are much more offensive towards their opponents than RB has been, yet they remain and are not even subject to the moderation queue. Why the double standard? JJJayM
March 22, 2009
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Clive [332],
I usually do show why someone has been banned by me. Now, anyone who was not banned by me, I of course, cannot say.
A few suggestions for making UD's policy less arbitrary and opaque: 1. Provide a contact link where a person can email the adminstators. UD has multiple people with multiple levels of control but no "contact us" email. This is ridiculous. A banned person should be able to contact an administrator. 2. Provide a list of who controls banning and who they have banned. 3. Quit banning people for what they have said on other forums. You can't be the internet nanny, but you can control what behavior occurs on your own forum. 4. Have a consistent policy between administrators. In [50], Barry says "If PZ [Myers] — or anyone else — came here and minded his manners, he would be more than welcome. I’m not holding my breath though, because PZ does not appear to be able to rise above adolescent name calling." So PZ would not be banned by Barry for stuff he said at his own blog. He would apparently, however, be banned by you. 5. Have a consistent policy by one administrator. RB has been banned for discourtesy on this thread. But this thread contains comments by a pro-ID commenter who routinely insults others both here and on his own blog. The difference, apparently, is that he insults people who are anti-ID. Just suggestions.David Kellogg
March 22, 2009
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Note: my remark at 338 was to Kairosfocus (GEM). I didn't make that clear.hazel
March 22, 2009
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Richard Simons:
You have said “A specific entailment of ID is certain objects cannot be reduced to matter, energy, chance and necessity.” but to be honest I don’t have a clue what this means.
Then I suggest you get an education. Not everyone has the capabilities to deal with science. IUOW perhaps you should read the pro-ID literature I recommended. That way you won't continue to argue from ignorance.
Could you give an example of an object that has been reduced to matter, energy, chance and necessity and demonstrate how it was done?
Lightning- it was once thought to be from the "gods". Now science has demonstrated there aren't any "gods" hurling lightning bolts. Earthquakes- the "gods" are angry"- Now we know they are the direct result of plate tectonices- again via scientific investigation.Joseph
March 22, 2009
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David Kellogg: There isn’t any such thing as “cumulative selection” in nature.
So: is cumulative selection possible (Dawkins) or impossible (Joseph)?
But I did NOT say it was impossible. Geez for an English professor you do seem to struggle with the language. All you have to do is show us an example of cumulative selection. And it would be helpful to your case if it was an example of building something that never existed- as would be the case for the first population(s) trying to survive.Joseph
March 22, 2009
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hazel, Do you realize that throughout our history people have refuted some design inferences by demonstrating that nature, operating freely can account for it. That means that FCSI is irrelevant because all you have to do is take the object in question- the one with the alleged FCSI- and show it can come about via nature, operating freely and the FCSI dissolves away. Now what part of that don't you understand?Joseph
March 22, 2009
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To Upright BiPed - I was just wondering why you brought "Behe lying for Jesus"on this thread, as no one here had said anything like that, and certainly not in reference to Behe.hazel
March 22, 2009
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Richard asked a simple question:
Please could you guide me through a couple of examples of the use of the explanatory filter, for example on a stone polygon on the tundra and, say, an epidermal cell from an onion.
Can you show how one would calculate the FSCI of these two things? If this number is a "credible reliable sign" of design, then one would expect methods for reliably calculating this number for both designed and non-designed things. Can you explain those methods, and show how they would be applied to thngs like those Richard mentioned??hazel
March 22, 2009
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RS:
IC was a predicted consequence of evolution (Muller, 1918).
It was a "prediction" only in the sense that IC was observed so it had to be explained away. What YOU need is to demonstrate that unguided processes can account for it. The SAME goes for CSI- it is defined and the definition is more rigorous than anything your position has. So again all YOU have to do to refute the premise is to demonstrate that nature, operating freely can account for CSI as it is currently defined. However to do that you have to stop whining and actuall do some work.Joseph
March 22, 2009
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ID is NOT anti-evolution.
In that case, what did you mean when you wrote “Transciption and translation remain very good evidnce for ID in biology”?
OK I have asked you more than once what pro-ID literture you have read. I have even provided a link to the recommended pro-ID literature. YOU have never responded to my question. And now you continue to prove you don't know what is being debated and you act as if your ignorance is meaningful. IOW you are pathetic. I will ask you again: What pro-ID literature have you read? I will not waste any more of my time with someone who chooses to argue from ignorance. I have provided the methodology on how to falsify ID. It is the SAME methodology that has been used to refute design inferences throughout history. Now stop whining and get to it.Joseph
March 22, 2009
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Hazel, hit your search engine with "Behe lying for Jesus". I get 298,000 hits. How many do you get? - - - - - - - JayM, I would love to debate you on the evidence, but there is no need to change venues - after all, what does the venue have to do with the evidence? I would also like to formally invite Allen MacNeil, Tom, Dick, and Harry to join your fight. I'll start right - JayM, you are a materialist right? What are the material properties of nitrogen, hydrogen, carbon, etc., that causes those chemicals to join together in an organization that begins to record its existence?Upright BiPed
March 22, 2009
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David Kellogg:
Joseph, how bizarre. You [301] quote Dawkins:
Living organization is the product of cumulative selection.
and you said “Dawkins agrees with me.”
Yes he does on my point of an ACCUMULATION of GENETIC ACCIDENTS. Context Kellogg- the context of what I post is very importatnt. Ya see RB doubted that the ToE involves an accumulation of genetic accidents- which is what I have beeen saying. Dawkins also says it does. So what is your point?Joseph
March 22, 2009
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Mr Simons: I see the wriggling school of red herrings continues, leading away to strawman arguments. That prelim point is relevant to the blog thead's core issue on moderation. But, sometimes it is also worth addressing the red herrings and strawmen to show onlookers just what is happening. (I just had to do so in another thread where basic Internet courtesy has been violated, and where abusive commentary against me by a Journalist who hoped thereby to get away with equating evangelicals in the Caribbean to the Taliban and the like, and to thus dismiss our objections to public lewdness al al Lady Saw et al, etc, was dredged up to try to skewer me through an ad hominem. I was forced to highlight the rebuttal I made to that journalist in my defense. And, it seems that the citation reveals the anti-Christian bigotry that seems to motivate all too many at Anti Evo and the like. [BTW, the notion that Talk Origins is a neutral turf is not only beyond ridiculous, but utterly revealing on the want of objectivity we are dealing with.]) Now, on this thread's red herring, I have long since put up, a specific test case on the central claim of modern design theory, that complex specified information [algorithmically and/or linguistically functionally specific form] is an observationally tested, empirically reliable sign of intelligence. Namely:
1 --> build a large array of PCs that spew random Zener triggered noise massaged for flatness of distribution, across test disk drive surfaces, every half minute for a year. 2 --> Test for a coherent, functional ASCII message in any suitable and reasonable PC format, of at least 500 - 1,000 bits. Or if you wanrt you can test for any recognisable PC file format and message or file. 3 --> With 10^6 PCs and 1.05 * 10^6 1/2 minutes per year, that is north of 10^12 tests per year. Continue for any reasonable number of years you can fund. [I am sure more than that of working but outdated PCs are abandoned per year so securing the PCs is no problem. Zener noise ckts are not hat hard to build and insert. to power same borrow a few dozen of Mr Pickens' 2700 windmills under construction.] 4 --> Just make sure that there are high integrity, high security audit and log trails with independent verification of the results, with of course tamperproof supervising computers. And, the machines will have to be insulated from the 'net: no wired or wireless access. [Weekly monitoring reports can be printed to hard copy per an automatic report form, and then OCR'ed into a form that can then be put up on a monitoring web site. I am sure UD and EIL will be more than willing to post links.] 5 --> How long do you expect to have to wait till the first functional message appears? Why? 6 --> Contrast this with the ease and regularity with which intelligent designers instantiate functional messages of that scope or bigger. [E.g both your remarks to me and this post.]
The matter is eminently feasible of testing, and I have put forth an apparatus of testing that is well within the reach of the many Internet skeptics of the design inference and/or the filter that is built upon it. FYFI, I have done so publicly for several years now. Indeed, the test is right there in my always linked page on every post I have ever made here at UD. In that light, Mr Simon et al, can you show me a credible instance where CSI, especially in the relevant subset, FSCI, has originated as a product of lucky noise and/or mere mechanical forces, without intelligent guidance or intervention? If not, on the massive evidence of the Internet and the information technology industry as a whole, I and many others are entitled to our strong conclusion that FSCI is a reliable sign of intelligence. thus, to use the Design theory explanatory filter to look at entities aspect by aspect and to infer that (i) natural regularities trace to lawlike mechanical necessity, and (ii) high contingency to either undirected (iii) stochastic variability of circumstances or (iv) to intelligent direction, with (v) FSCI as a credible reliable sign of the latter. And, as a matter of fact, where the evo mat agenda for science and society is not in contention, it is as near a consensus that this is -- and is so obviously -- the case, as makes for moral certainty beyond REASONABLE dispute. Consider your bluff called. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
March 22, 2009
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critter, "I’m not sure what you are asking. I simply requested that when posters are banned it should be posted that they are banned , and why they are banned." I usually do show why someone has been banned by me. Now, anyone who was not banned by me, I of course, cannot say.Clive Hayden
March 21, 2009
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And, lest we forget, this gem from Reciprocating Bill in response to how he can stand to post here with us, “It’s not really all that difficult. I merely post the same uncomfortable two-line question (entailments? tests?), then stand back as they writhe on the floor, handle serpents, speak in tongues, cast me out, hallucinate posts, declare victory, promulgate the preposterous, declare their expertise, and demand apologies.” http://www.antievolution.org/c.....p;p=140279 Yes, when he is “respectful”, he does it out of true regard for us at UD. :)Clive Hayden
March 21, 2009
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Reciprocating Bill. "Given that my participation has been serious and respectful..." Really? You said this yourself: "Without claiming significance anything resembling PZ's [Myers], I do have a history of critical comments regarding UD, Barry Arrington in particular, Uncommonly Denyse, etc. Not to mention adolescent name calling....I like to think that UD's new policy, in addition to reflecting new management, is also in response to the the ridiculative selection pressures we've exerted here....Let's watch." Bye Bill.Clive Hayden
March 21, 2009
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joseph
Richard Simons chimes in with the standard nonsense: I understood you to be trying to say that, because you can’t think of a way for transcription and translation to evolve, therefore ID. ID is NOT anti-evolution.
In that case, what did you mean when you wrote "Transciption and translation remain very good evidnce for ID in biology"?
IOW do you think a blind search for something that doesn’t yet exist is a valid model?
Evolution is not a blind search. If a genetic change is an advantage to the organism, then it is likely to be passed on to the offspring. No search is involved.
"I have been asking you to present a falsifiable prediction to test the concept of ID from the beginning and you have been dodging the issue." I have provided exactly that.
No. You have said "A specific entailment of ID is certain objects cannot be reduced to matter, energy, chance and necessity." but to be honest I don't have a clue what this means. Could you give an example of an object that has been reduced to matter, energy, chance and necessity and demonstrate how it was done?
Therefor to refute ID all one has to do is DEMONSTRATE that the observed CSI and IC can be accounted for via matter, energy, chance and necessity.
IC was a predicted consequence of evolution (Muller, 1918). CSI has never been demonstrated or measured. It is a figment of the imagination of Dembski. If you read his writing on the subject and can understand the math (it's not very advanced), you will see he is being unnecessarily convoluted in his descriptions and really never says anything.
Now if RB and RS don’t like that that is too bad. I would say that they do not understand science.
I can't speak for RB but I've evidence that you'd be wrong.
Now to counter my claim all RB and RS have to do is demonstrate what testable predictions come from unguided and blind evolutionary processes.
Unfortunately you have provided us with no feasible test to distinguish between guided and non-guided evolution, which is why biologists say that ID is vacuous. Jerry:
“To help you there Jerry, here are a few things that will falsify Evolution: 1: Dogs giving birth (unaided) to cats. [SNIP] Stuff like that. So what would falsify ID?” Yes, your examples would cause quite a stir but no one in ID or any other scientific endeavor expects to find anything like that.
However, there is nothing in ID to say that these are not possible.
So the only way to resolve this is for them to provide a falsifiable entailment of their position- an accumulation of genetic accidents.
I did long ago [193]. I'm still waiting for your predictions. Kairosfocus:
The ID explanatory filter is an excellent place to begin serious thinking on the matter.
Please could you guide me through a couple of examples of the use of the explanatory filter, for example on a stone polygon on the tundra and, say, an epidermal cell from an onion. It would go a long way to answering the questions I have about ID if you (anyone?) would merely fill in the blanks in this sentence from RB "If design is true then we should observe ________. If we don’t observe _______ our theory is at risk of disconfirmation.” (using things that are not known yet but that are potentially knowable in the next few years). What would really make me happy if some IDer would then actually go out and see if either of these is correct.Richard Simons
March 21, 2009
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Critter, perhaps it would be fair as well that posts that are intended to mount an attack on ID, actually mount the attack. By the way, do think Michael Behe is “Lying for Jesus?”
I'm not sure what you are asking. I simply requested that when posters are banned it should be posted that they are banned , and why they are banned.critter
March 21, 2009
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The original post said,
Some commenters have raised questions regarding the propriety of recent posts and UD’s moderation policy. UD’s moderation policy is fairly simple: As a general rule, so long as your comment is not defamatory profane, or a vicious personal attack, you can say pretty much what you want. We have no interest in censoring viewpoints, because we believe ID is true and consequently in any full and fair debate we will win — and if we don’t win we either need to learn to debate better or change our position.
It didn’t say, “Perhaps it would be fair as well that posts that are intended to mount an attack on ID, actually mount the attack.” If you believe that “in any full and fair debate we will win— and if we don’t win we either need to learn to debate better or change our position,” then you will welcome poor attacks on ID, and will be able to show why they are poor. And from where did Behe and “lying for Jesus” all of a sudden come? No one has said anything about “lying for Jesus” on this thread, as far as I can tell.hazel
March 21, 2009
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Hazel, I am unaware if that is the case. I just post here. Critter, perhaps it would be fair as well that posts that are intended to mount an attack on ID, actually mount the attack. By the way, do think Michael Behe is "Lying for Jesus?"Upright BiPed
March 21, 2009
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To the Attention of Upright BiPed I specifically challenge you to discuss the scientific validity of ID on talk.origins, or any other neutral venue where neither of us is subject to censorship. Do you have the intellectual integrity to do so or are you just another noise maker in the UD echo chamber? JJJayM
March 21, 2009
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Shouldn't notice be given when people are banned and reasons for banning given? It seems unfair to ban people from posting and make it appear they are unwilling to respond.critter
March 21, 2009
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Upright - FYI: my understanding is that Bill can no longer freely post, which is ironic given the subject of this thread.hazel
March 21, 2009
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Bill, You ask here and elsewhere what ID offers up for disconfirmation in such a way that ID or a major tenet of ID would be at risk. At the same time, you are quite capable of understanding that ID is immediately falsifiable by simply attacking the central tenets of the thesis. But you want more; you want to control the court instead. The very fact that you insist that someone fill in the blanks of a sentence, says virtually everything about your attack. I don’t think you’re being generously candid with yourself about the situation you’re in, that we are in together. This is a battle for intellectual territory; critical mass. Your side has a great deal of it; virtually all of it among a valued and powerful minority, along with their minions in the press and politics. But don’t kid yourself. Spend a day demanding from everyone that they acknowledge they (and everyone they know) are literally meaningless and have no free will, and then perhaps your boundaries will come into focus. Although I think you are being less than candid in the gist of your questions, I have no doubt you’re crystal clear about the success of the scientific attack on your position. There could be no other rational explanation for the size (and the tone) of its defense. It’s a veritable cottage industry; powered by the (emotionally necessary) hope that the evidence against chance and necessity wouldn’t be so glaring if theists would just shut up. But your problem isn’t the theists; in fact, the only reason this ill-conceived hope exists at all is because the evidence against chance and necessity wouldn’t be one bit less of an embarrassment if every theists in the world killed over dead tomorrow. If this wasn’t so, then you’d just attack the evidence for ID, render it falsified, and be done with it. But, you can’t, so you end up trying to define the terms of the argument instead – as you’ve done repeatedly on this very thread. It’s what Popper argued the conventionalist would do, and he was correct. If you took a little time and familiarized yourself with opposition strategy, you might more clearly understand the four positions one must take. Each is distinct, and that distinction allows a more studied person to understand the basis of your attack. You are taking the position characterized as having the least strength against the goal. The irony that your position (as I said above) enjoys the greatest intellectual territory within a people, but must shrink to the position of least strength when confronting the evidence for ID, is reflected in the evidence itself. I suppose it couldn’t be any other way, but it is interesting to watch all the same (sorry, if this goes over your head). You then go back to your home turf and lament the moderation policy at UD, as if that were the problem. Any person with even modicum of sense could examine the tone of comments made here and elsewhere, and immediately understand why UD has moderation - your side simply needs it; they clearly have an issue with being able to moderate themselves. Quite honestly, it’s an embarrassment to Darwin (and to science). So you ask for an entailment for which you can battle. And in this battle you’ll defeat a great tenet of design, correct? A tenet being a belief one has about something. And in the case of the design hypothesis, that belief is that chance and necessity (have not, and) cannot account for its existence, while design is the only known causal mechanism known to man that is able, and the empirical evidence continues to grow. Well, grow some balls Bill. Quit whining about the moderation policy at UD and go on the attack. Irreducible complexity is a tenet of design. Have at it. Selection for fitness at the nucleic level is a tenet of design. Tear it up. The information paradox in a tenet of design. Show us anywhere in the natural world where chemicals combine to interpret and record their existence. Give us a plausible explanation of how chance did that. Quit playing word games and put your evidence where your mouth is. - - - - - - - - Frank, David Your last posts are so full of misrepresentations, diversions, and willful ignorance that it simply doesn’t warrant a response (at least not by me today). You’ve taken the same weak position as Bill. You can’t expect anyone to come to the plate, if you aren’t willing yourself.Upright BiPed
March 21, 2009
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Joseph, how bizarre. You [301] quote Dawkins:
Living organization is the product of cumulative selection.
and you said "Dawkins agrees with me." But earlier I [289] quoted you:
There isn’t any such thing as “cumulative selection” in nature.
So: is cumulative selection possible (Dawkins) or impossible (Joseph)?David Kellogg
March 21, 2009
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Seeing if I am still in Moderation Purgatory.FrankH
March 21, 2009
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Frank:
So we already know there are self-replicating proteins out there.
We do? Can you provide a reference for SELF-REPLICATING PROTEINS? Thanks.Joseph
March 21, 2009
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Frank:
ID must first find a way to accurately detect design in nature and not just “Because it looks that way” and it be used with 100% accuracy in field tests.
Science doesn't look for 100% accuracy Frank. But thanks for proving you don't understand science. And as I have told you we do have tried and true design detection techniques. Now to refute the design inference all you have to do is show tat nature, operating freely can account for it. And just because you can't do that it is no reason to act like a crybaby. Just admit that your position is based on imagination, not science.Joseph
March 21, 2009
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Farnk, Answer the question: And why is what worked throughout history to falsify the design inference not any good for ID?
See I know evolution DID do it.
Did WHAT, exactly? And what type of "evolution"? Guided or unguided? Ya see Frank it is obvious from your posts that you don't know anything about ID nor what is being debated. You can say "evolution did it" but you can't support that claim with any scientific data. IOW ALL you have is faith is some vague thing called "evolution". Now stay focused and answer teh question: And why is what worked throughout history to falsify the design inference not any good for ID? Or admit you don't know squat about anything....Joseph
March 21, 2009
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