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A world-famous chemist tells the truth: there’s no scientist alive today who understands macroevolution

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Professor James M. Tour is one of the ten most cited chemists in the world. He is famous for his work on nanocars (pictured above, courtesy of Wikipedia), nanoelectronics, graphene nanostructures, carbon nanovectors in medicine, and green carbon research for enhanced oil recovery and environmentally friendly oil and gas extraction. He is currently a Professor of Chemistry, Professor of Computer Science, and Professor of Mechanical Engineering and Materials Science at Rice University. He has authored or co-authored 489 scientific publications and his name is on 36 patents. Although he does not regard himself as an Intelligent Design theorist, Professor Tour, along with over 700 other scientists, took the courageous step back in 2001 of signing the Discovery Institute’s “A Scientific Dissent from Darwinism”, which read: “We are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Careful examination of the evidence for Darwinian theory should be encouraged.”

On Professor Tour’s Website, there’s a very revealing article on evolution and creation, in which Tour bluntly states that he does not understand how macroevolution could have happened, from a chemical standpoint (all bold emphases below are mine – VJT):

Although most scientists leave few stones unturned in their quest to discern mechanisms before wholeheartedly accepting them, when it comes to the often gross extrapolations between observations and conclusions on macroevolution, scientists, it seems to me, permit unhealthy leeway. When hearing such extrapolations in the academy, when will we cry out, “The emperor has no clothes!”?

…I simply do not understand, chemically, how macroevolution could have happened. Hence, am I not free to join the ranks of the skeptical and to sign such a statement without reprisals from those that disagree with me? … Does anyone understand the chemical details behind macroevolution? If so, I would like to sit with that person and be taught, so I invite them to meet with me.

In a more recent talk, entitled, Nanotech and Jesus Christ, given on 1 November 2012 at Georgia Tech, Professor Tour went further, and declared that no scientist that he has spoken to understands macroevolution – and that includes Nobel Prize winners! Here’s what he said when a student in the audience asked him about evolution:

I will tell you as a scientist and a synthetic chemist: if anybody should be able to understand evolution, it is me, because I make molecules for a living, and I don’t just buy a kit, and mix this and mix this, and get that. I mean, ab initio, I make molecules. I understand how hard it is to make molecules. I understand that if I take Nature’s tool kit, it could be much easier, because all the tools are already there, and I just mix it in the proportions, and I do it under these conditions, but ab initio is very, very hard.

I don’t understand evolution, and I will confess that to you. Is that OK, for me to say, “I don’t understand this”? Is that all right? I know that there’s a lot of people out there that don’t understand anything about organic synthesis, but they understand evolution. I understand a lot about making molecules; I don’t understand evolution. And you would just say that, wow, I must be really unusual.

Let me tell you what goes on in the back rooms of science – with National Academy members, with Nobel Prize winners. I have sat with them, and when I get them alone, not in public – because it’s a scary thing, if you say what I just said – I say, “Do you understand all of this, where all of this came from, and how this happens?” Every time that I have sat with people who are synthetic chemists, who understand this, they go “Uh-uh. Nope.” These people are just so far off, on how to believe this stuff came together. I’ve sat with National Academy members, with Nobel Prize winners. Sometimes I will say, “Do you understand this?”And if they’re afraid to say “Yes,” they say nothing. They just stare at me, because they can’t sincerely do it.

I was once brought in by the Dean of the Department, many years ago, and he was a chemist. He was kind of concerned about some things. I said, “Let me ask you something. You’re a chemist. Do you understand this? How do you get DNA without a cell membrane? And how do you get a cell membrane without a DNA? And how does all this come together from this piece of jelly?” We have no idea, we have no idea. I said, “Isn’t it interesting that you, the Dean of science, and I, the chemistry professor, can talk about this quietly in your office, but we can’t go out there and talk about this?”

If you understand evolution, I am fine with that. I’m not going to try to change you – not at all. In fact, I wish I had the understanding that you have.

But about seven or eight years ago I posted on my Web site that I don’t understand. And I said, “I will buy lunch for anyone that will sit with me and explain to me evolution, and I won’t argue with you until I don’t understand something – I will ask you to clarify. But you can’t wave by and say, “This enzyme does that.” You’ve got to get down in the details of where molecules are built, for me. Nobody has come forward.

The Atheist Society contacted me. They said that they will buy the lunch, and they challenged the Atheist Society, “Go down to Houston and have lunch with this guy, and talk to him.” Nobody has come! Now remember, because I’m just going to ask, when I stop understanding what you’re talking about, I will ask. So I sincerely want to know. I would like to believe it. But I just can’t.

Now, I understand microevolution, I really do. We do this all the time in the lab. I understand this. But when you have speciation changes, when you have organs changing, when you have to have concerted lines of evolution, all happening in the same place and time – not just one line – concerted lines, all at the same place, all in the same environment … this is very hard to fathom.

I was in Israel not too long ago, talking with a bio-engineer, and [he was] describing to me the ear, and he was studying the different changes in the modulus of the ear, and I said, “How does this come about?” And he says, “Oh, Jim, you know, we all believe in evolution, but we have no idea how it happened.” Now there’s a good Jewish professor for you. I mean, that’s what it is. So that’s where I am. Have I answered the question? (52:00 to 56:44)

Professor Tour’s online talk is absolutely fascinating as well as being deeply moving on a personal level, and I would strongly urge readers to listen to his talk in its entirety – including the questions after the talk. You won’t regret it, I promise you. One interesting little gem of information which I’ll reveal is that it was Professor Tour who was largely instrumental in getting Nobel Laureate Richard Smalley, winner of the 1996 Nobel Prize in Chemistry, to reject Darwinian evolution and accept Old Earth creationism, shortly before he died in 2005. It was Tour who persuaded Smalley to delve into the question of origins. After reading the books “Origins of Life” and “Who Was Adam?”, written by Dr. Hugh Ross (an astrophysicist) and Dr. Fazale Rana (a biochemist).. Dr. Smalley explained his change of heart as follows:

Evolution has just been dealt its death blow. After reading “Origins of Life”, with my background in chemistry and physics, it is clear evolution could not have occurred. The new book, “Who Was Adam?”, is the silver bullet that puts the evolutionary model to death.

Strong words indeed, for a Nobel scientist. Readers can find out more about Professor Richard Smalley’s change of views here.

Why should we believe macroevolution, if nobody understands it?

Now that Professor Tour has informed the world that even Nobel Prize-winning scientists privately admit that they don’t understand macroevolution, a layperson is surely entitled to ask: “Well, if even they don’t understand it, then why should we believe it? How can we possibly be obliged to believe in a theory which nobody understands?”

That’s a good question. And it’s no use for Darwinists to trot out the standard “party line” that “even if we don’t yet understand how it happened, we still have enough evidence to infer that it happened.” At the very most, all that the current scientific evidence could establish is the common descent of living organisms. But that’s not macroevolution. Macroevolution requires more than a common ancestry for living organisms: it requires a natural mechanism which can generate the diversity of life-forms we see on Earth today from a common stock, without the need for any direction by an Intelligent Agent. But the mechanism is precisely what we don’t have evidence for. So the question remains: why should we believe in macroevolution?

The decline of academic freedom

Given the massive uncertainty about the “how” of macroevolution among scientists working in the field, you might think that a wide variety of views would be tolerated in the scientific arena – including the view that there is no such process as macroevolution. However, you would be sadly mistaken. As Professor Tour notes in his online article on evolution and creation, an alarming academic trend has emerged in recent years: a growing intolerance of dissent from Darwinism. This trend is so pronounced that Professor Tour now advises his students not to voice their doubts about Darwinism in public, if they want a successful career:

In the last few years I have seen a saddening progression at several institutions. I have witnessed unfair treatment upon scientists that do not accept macroevolutionary arguments and for their having signed the above-referenced statement regarding the examination of Darwinism. (I will comment no further regarding the specifics of the actions taken upon the skeptics; I love and honor my colleagues too much for that.) I never thought that science would have evolved like this. I deeply value the academy; teaching, professing and research in the university are my privileges and joys…

But my recent advice to my graduate students has been direct and revealing: If you disagree with Darwinian Theory, keep it to yourselves if you value your careers, unless, of course, you’re one of those champions for proclamation; I know that that fire exists in some, so be ready for lead-ridden limbs. But if the scientific community has taken these shots at senior faculty, it will not be comfortable for the young non-conformist. When the power-holders permit no contrary discussion, can a vibrant academy be maintained? Is there a University (unity in diversity)? For the United States, I pray that the scientific community and the National Academy in particular will investigate the disenfranchisement that is manifest upon some of their own, and thereby address the inequity.

It remains to be seen if other countries will allow their young scientists to think freely about the origin of life, and of the various species of organisms that we find on Earth today. What I will say, though, is that countries which restrict academic freedom will eventually be overtaken by countries which allow it to prosper. There is still time for America and Europe to throw off the dead hand of Darwinism in academic circles, and let their young people breathe the unaccustomed air of free speech once again.

(UPDATE: Here’s a link to my follow-up post, Macroevolution, microevolution and chemistry: the devil is in the details. It amply refutes the simplistic charge, made by some skeptics, that Professor Tour was conflating macroevolution with the question of the origin of life.)

UD Editors:  This post has received a great deal of attention lately, so we are moving it back to the front page.

Comments
William J Murray what would serve as falsifying evidence that evolution is a sufficient explanation for the existence of any particular biological feature? This leaves too much room for frivolity. i.e. 'If square circles are discovered, I would have to admit my understanding falls short'. What evidence would indicate that ID is a better explanation than natural processes alone?bevets
February 20, 2013
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"Human ancestors: great. Thanks Nick. Please pick your favourite macro-evolutionary worthy fossil, better still, one that you have personal experience of working with." LOL, yes Nick, please do so. After all, you can't beat hands-on Macro-Evolutionary experience.computerist
February 20, 2013
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Dr. Matzke: what would serve as falsifying evidence that evolution is a sufficient explanation for the existence of any particular biological feature?William J Murray
February 20, 2013
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What Creationists say:
evolution, biological n. 1) “microevolution”—the name used by many evolutionists to describe genetic variation, the empirically observed phenomenon in which exisiting potential variations within the gene pool of a population of organisms are manifested or suppressed among members of that population over a series of generations. Often simplistically (and erroneously) invoked as “proof” of “macro evolution” 2) macroevolution—the theory/belief that biological population changes take (and have taken) place (typically via mutations and natural selection) on a large enough scale to produce entirely new structural features and organs, resulting in entirely new species, genera, families, orders, classes, and phyla within the biological world, by generating the requisite (new) genetic information. Many evolutionists have used “macro-evolution” and “Neo-Darwinism” as synonymous for the past 150 years. (bold added)
Theirs seems to be the more specific definition. Meaning it is a better definition.Joe
February 20, 2013
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Umm all this means is that my initial point is true- that the species concept is ambiguous and so is the accepted definition of macroevolution. By that accepted definition YECs accept macroevolution. Nick Matzke:
Yep, they do.
That means you should be OK with the teaching of baraminology in biology classrooms as it encompasses both micro and macroevolution. Please let the NCSE know.Joe
February 20, 2013
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Umm all this means is that my initial point is true- that the species concept is ambiguous and so is the accepted definition of macroevolution. By that accepted definition YECs accept macroevolution. Nick Matzke:
Yep, they do. Good! You’ve learned something today!
LoL! Except YECs argue against macroevolution! However they have and use a better definition of the concept.
Evolutionists came up with term “macroevolution”.
So what? My bet is the definition has evolved since its inception. As it stands now, that accepted definition is useless and doesn't describe nor mean anything.Joe
February 20, 2013
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Nick Matzke:
Dog breeds and many other domestic plants and animals have morphological differences much larger than the “macroevolutionary” differences typically seen between species in a genus or even family.
LoL! You just don't get it, Nick. That supports my claim of transitional form = "it looks like a transitional form to me"- phenotypic plasticity- you can't tell the difference between an actual transitional and phenotypic plasticity just by looking at the fossils.Joe
February 20, 2013
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Human ancestors: great. Thanks Nick. Please pick your favourite macro-evolutionary worthy fossil, better still, one that you have personal experience of working with.Chris Doyle
February 20, 2013
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For example, we should be able to use targeted mutagenesis and evolve our own fishapod. THAT would be something.
Dog breeds and many other domestic plants and animals have morphological differences much larger than the "macroevolutionary" differences typically seen between species in a genus or even family. Cue excuse for not accepting the evidence you JUST requested in 3, 2, 1...NickMatzke_UD
February 20, 2013
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Umm all this means is that my initial point is true- that the species concept is ambiguous and so is the accepted definition of macroevolution. By that accepted definition YECs accept macroevolution.
Yep, they do. Good! You've learned something today!
So what good is it if the word can’t even differentiate between baraminology and universal common descent?
Evolutionists came up with term "macroevolution". It was designed for scientific purposes, i.e. distinguishing between population genetics and other evolutionary processes. It's not our fault if the creationists developed their own bizarre definition based on their fake field of "baraminology" and then mistakenly assume that the creationist definition applies every time they read the evolutionists using the word "macroevolution".NickMatzke_UD
February 20, 2013
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Nick Matzke:
The evidence of some big pattern — e.g. common ancestry — can be overwhelming, without every last detail being known.
The evidence of some big pattern — e.g. common design — can be overwhelming, without every last detail being known.
I’ve been the only one citing actual evidence in these macroevolution threads.
Perhaps, but then again your definition of "macroevolution" is useless.
You guys are the ones afraid to follow the evidence wherever it leads.
All evidence to the contrary of course.
If you were actually brave enough to do so, you would admit that transitional fossils are common, that common ancestry is overwhelmingly supported, etc.
Look Nick, your position can't even get beyond prokaryotes without relying on some magical endosymbiotic events- magical because an engulfed organisms magically evolved into vital organelles- all untestable, of course. Ooops "it looks like..." isn't science Nick. A biological theory requires biological evidence Nick. And right now we do not have any biological evidence that links to the morphological and physiological transformations required. For example, we should be able to use targeted mutagenesis and evolve our own fishapod. THAT would be something. Instead we get 50,000+ generations of E. coli with very limited, and very oversold, change.Joe
February 20, 2013
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BTW Nick, we have allegedly different species that can interbreed. Nick Matzke:
Shocker. Speciation is a gradual process, not an all-or-nothing thing at first. It’s almost like gradual evolution is true or something.
Umm all this means is that my initial point is true- that the species concept is ambiguous and so is the accepted definition of macroevolution. By that accepted definition YECs accept macroevolution. So what good is it if the word can't even differentiate between baraminology and universal common descent?Joe
February 20, 2013
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http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/science/publications.php
I don’t dispute your science. Not because I accept it, nor because I deny it, but because I am a learner in this area and don’t feel I have suffient knowledge to discuss intelligently. But I do have some comments on the quote above. It seems that what you are saying is that this is difficult. That there is not as much evidence as one would like, that you are have piecing together the theory based on fragments of insight. The problem is this is the opposite of the approach I see. I see claims that evolution is true, that the evidence is “overwhelming” and similar words from that section of the thesaurus. I see grandiose narratives, speculative interpolation, and so on.
The evidence of some big pattern -- e.g. common ancestry -- can be overwhelming, without every last detail being known. The evidence for plate tectonics is overwhelming, yet we don't know the position of every grain of sand at every point in time, or even the exact position of every fragment of every tectonic plate at every point in time. Science is about making good approximations, not omniscience.
This is not science as I was taught it. This is not the scientific process I was taught.
A lot of people were taught an oversimplified and basically fake version of "The Scientific Method", which was based on the assumption that all science is based on lab experiments and that it follows a black-and-white step-by-step process. The actual process is more like this: http://undsci.berkeley.edu/article/howscienceworks_01
Good science doesn’t blackball alternative or minority theories or opinions. Good science doesn’t defend, protect, or promote a favored theory.
So, you're in favor of giving equal time in chemistry classes to the idea that Atomic Theory is false. Right? Oh, and homeopathy.
Good science doesn’t discount the opinion of scientists from other fields who note where a general theory isn’t supported by theory within their field. Good science let’s the evidence speak for science rather than scientists.
I've been the only one citing actual evidence in these macroevolution threads. All the UD regulars are just throwing up objections based on their personal lack of understanding of these topics, and then pretending that they represent huge crucial gaps in the entire field. You guys are the ones afraid to follow the evidence wherever it leads. If you were actually brave enough to do so, you would admit that transitional fossils are common, that common ancestry is overwhelmingly supported, etc.
But, in the end, the approach I see in evolutionary biology (some of which you have demonstrated in this thread) is damaging, most of all to theory of evolution itself. Abuses of the scientific process contribute to increased skepticism – it raises the guard of those who are not informed and see only the human behaviors surrounding the science. And the truth is those behaviors don’t influence whether the science is ‘true’ or not. I am still open to the theory of evolution. I still want to learn more and follow the evidence where it leads. But I admit that I am particularly cautious as I research it because of the approach of evolutionists in championing their theory.
I try to be patient. But I'm human. When people who don't know what they are talking about start declaring my field bogus, and then start blaming it for Nazis etc., I get annoyed. Anyone would be. My advice for you is to keep reading, and start testing the creationist/antievolution claims for yourself. Is it really true that there are no transitional fossils? Start there and then start reading. It won't be long.NickMatzke_UD
February 20, 2013
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Accidental origins: Where species come from - March 2010 Excerpt: If speciation results from natural selection via many small changes, you would expect the branch lengths to fit a bell-shaped curve.,,, Instead, Pagel's team found that in 78 per cent of the trees, the best fit for the branch length distribution was another familiar curve, known as the exponential distribution. Like the bell curve, the exponential has a straightforward explanation - but it is a disquieting one for evolutionary biologists. The exponential is the pattern you get when you are waiting for some single, infrequent event to happen.,,,To Pagel, the implications for speciation are clear: "It isn't the accumulation of events that causes a speciation, it's single, rare events falling out of the sky, so to speak." http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20527511.400-accidental-origins-where-species-come-from.html?page=2 More from Ann Gauger on why humans didn’t happen the way Darwin said – July 2012 Excerpt: Each of these new features probably required multiple mutations. Getting a feature that requires six neutral mutations is the limit of what bacteria can produce. For primates (e.g., monkeys, apes and humans) the limit is much more severe. Because of much smaller effective population sizes (an estimated ten thousand for humans instead of a billion for bacteria) and longer generation times (fifteen to twenty years per generation for humans vs. a thousand generations per year for bacteria), it would take a very long time for even a single beneficial mutation to appear and become fixed in a human population. You don’t have to take my word for it. In 2007, Durrett and Schmidt estimated in the journal Genetics that for a single mutation to occur in a nucleotide-binding site and be fixed in a primate lineage would require a waiting time of six million years. The same authors later estimated it would take 216 million years for the binding site to acquire two mutations, if the first mutation was neutral in its effect. Facing Facts But six million years is the entire time allotted for the transition from our last common ancestor with chimps to us according to the standard evolutionary timescale. Two hundred and sixteen million years takes us back to the Triassic, when the very first mammals appeared. One or two mutations simply aren’t sufficient to produce the necessary changes— sixteen anatomical features—in the time available. At most, a new binding site might affect the regulation of one or two genes. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/more-from-ann-gauger-on-why-humans-didnt-happen-the-way-darwin-said/bornagain77
February 20, 2013
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145 JoeFebruary 20, 2013 at 10:10 am BTW Nick, we have allegedly different species that can interbreed.
Shocker. Speciation is a gradual process, not an all-or-nothing thing at first. It's almost like gradual evolution is true or something. PS: I should have said "detectably isolated" rather than "detectably different". Humans (like all species) have differences among populations, yes, but they all the populations of humans intergrade very gradually into each other geographically, with geographically intermediate populations having intermediate genetics, so it's all one big gene pool.NickMatzke_UD
February 20, 2013
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"Sigh. You really have no idea at all about this stuff, do you? Here’s the issue. Picture, in your head, all 5000 mammal species currently living on the planet. Now think of how many individuals are in each species — some are almost extinct, some have populations of billions. Now think about how each of these individuals lives and reproduces and dies over the years. Now add in how all of these individuals compete with each other, each each other, etc. Continue this process for millions of years, with species splitting and going extinct, sometimes randomly, sometimes due to climate change, sometimes due to invasions of other species, etc. Add in continents moving around on the globe, ice sheets advancing and retreating, and tens of thousands of other species of vertebrates plus hundreds of thousands of plant species and millions of insect species. Then imagine what this process would look like if all you had was a very incomplete sample with lots of biases, in the form of fossils, most of which are fragmentary. Suppose you are interested in doing science, and you want to develop hypotheses about the patterns you observe, and developed the data and statistical methods to rigorously test those hypotheses. Now you’re getting some vague sense of what macroevolutionary studies are really about, why it requires actual training and work to be able to avoid talking nonsense about the topic, and why you can’t just read a popular book or two and blithely assume you know what you are talking about." I don't dispute your science. Not because I accept it, nor because I deny it, but because I am a learner in this area and don't feel I have suffient knowledge to discuss intelligently. But I do have some comments on the quote above. It seems that what you are saying is that this is difficult. That there is not as much evidence as one would like, that you are have piecing together the theory based on fragments of insight. This is understandable. It would be expected there will be error in this process. There will be surprises where theory must be revised. That the scientists involved should be very conservative in their judgments and conclusions. The problem is this is the opposite of the approach I see. I see claims that evolution is true, that the evidence is "overwhelming" and similar words from that section of the thesaurus. I see grandiose narratives, speculative interpolation, and so on. This is not science as I was taught it. This is not the scientific process I was taught. Good science doesn't blackball alternative or minority theories or opinions. Good science doesn't defend, protect, or promote a favored theory. Good science doesn't discount the opinion of scientists from other fields who note where a general theory isn't supported by theory within their field. Good science let's the evidence speak for science rather than scientists. But, in the end, the approach I see in evolutionary biology (some of which you have demonstrated in this thread) is damaging, most of all to theory of evolution itself. Abuses of the scientific process contribute to increased skepticism - it raises the guard of those who are not informed and see only the human behaviors surrounding the science. And the truth is those behaviors don't influence whether the science is 'true' or not. I am still open to the theory of evolution. I still want to learn more and follow the evidence where it leads. But I admit that I am particularly cautious as I research it because of the approach of evolutionists in championing their theory.ecs2
February 20, 2013
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of note to post 143, A minor glitch in Barrow's and Tippler's dream of humans evolving to point to someday create universes, it seems humans are headed in the wrong direction evolutionarily speaking: Inside the Human Genome: A Case for Non-Intelligent Design - Pg. 57 By John C. Avise Excerpt: "Another compilation of gene lesions responsible for inherited diseases is the web-based Human Gene Mutation Database (HGMD). Recent versions of HGMD describe more than 75,000 different disease causing mutations identified to date in Homo-sapiens." I went to the mutation database website cited by John Avise and found: HGMD®: Now celebrating our 100,000 mutation milestone! http://www.hgmd.org/ Human Genome in Meltdown - January 11, 2013 Excerpt: According to a study published Jan. 10 in Nature by geneticists from 4 universities including Harvard, “Analysis of 6,515 exomes reveals the recent origin of most human protein-coding variants.”,,,: "We estimate that approximately 73% of all protein-coding SNVs [single-nucleotide variants] and approximately 86% of SNVs predicted to be deleterious arose in the past 5,000 -10,000 years. The average age of deleterious SNVs varied significantly across molecular pathways, and disease genes contained a significantly higher proportion of recently arisen deleterious SNVs than other genes.",,, As for advantageous mutations, they provided NO examples,,, http://crev.info/2013/01/human-genome-in-meltdown/ Are brains shrinking to make us smarter? - February 2011 Excerpt: Human brains have shrunk over the past 30,000 years, http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-02-brains-smarter.html If Modern Humans Are So Smart, Why Are Our Brains Shrinking? - January 20, 2011 Excerpt: John Hawks is in the middle of explaining his research on human evolution when he drops a bombshell. Running down a list of changes that have occurred in our skeleton and skull since the Stone Age, the University of Wisconsin anthropologist nonchalantly adds, “And it’s also clear the brain has been shrinking.” “Shrinking?” I ask. “I thought it was getting larger.” The whole ascent-of-man thing.,,, He rattles off some dismaying numbers: Over the past 20,000 years, the average volume of the human male brain has decreased from 1,500 cubic centimeters to 1,350 cc, losing a chunk the size of a tennis ball. The female brain has shrunk by about the same proportion. “I’d call that major downsizing in an evolutionary eyeblink,” he says. “This happened in China, Europe, Africa—everywhere we look.” http://discovermagazine.com/2010/sep/25-modern-humans-smart-why-brain-shrinking Study suggests humans are slowly but surely losing intellectual and emotional abilities - November 12, 2012 Excerpt: "Human intelligence and behavior require optimal functioning of a large number of genes, which requires enormous evolutionary pressures to maintain. A provocative hypothesis published in a recent set of Science and Society pieces published in the Cell Press journal Trends in Genetics suggests that we are losing our intellectual and emotional capabilities because the intricate web of genes endowing us with our brain power is particularly susceptible to mutations and that these mutations are not being selected against in our modern society." http://medicalxpress.com/news/2012-11-humans-slowly-surely-intellectual-emotional.html#jCp Is Human Intellect Degenerating? - February 19, 2013 Excerpt: A recent study of the Online Mendelian Inheritance in Man (OMIM) database, although incomplete, indicates that about half of all human genetic diseases have a neurologic component, [6], frequently including some aspect of [intellectual deficiency], consistent with the notion that many genes are required for intellectual and emotional function. The reported mutations have been severe alleles, often de novo mutations that reduce fecundity. However, each of these genes will also be subject to dozens if not hundreds of weaker mutations that lead to reduced function, but would not significantly impair fecundity, and hence could accumulate with time. . . https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/is-human-intellect-degenerating/bornagain77
February 20, 2013
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BTW Nick, we have allegedly different species that can interbreed.Joe
February 20, 2013
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Nick Matzke:
Operationally, a reproductively isolated gene pool that has been isolated long enough to be detectably different.
Let's see, Chinese and Americans are detectably different, yet we are the same species. Great Danes and havanese are detectably different yet again the same species.
Demanding for a single number like that is like demanding that a physicist tell you how many planets go around each star, as if the answer would be the same for each star.
LoL! I didn't demand anything, Nick. I was just asking. It is obvious that no one knows anything about it.
Oh wow gee, transitional fossils just look transitional, but actually they are not.
Yes Nick. For example a havanese could be considered a transitional form between a smaller dog and a larger dog- it sure looks like a fit, but we know that it ain't. IOW Nick you cannot tell the difference between phenotypic plasticity and a genuine transitional form.Joe
February 20, 2013
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But Mr. Matzke, shouldn't all species, including humans, be considered 'transitional' within the Darwinian framework? These guys believe so:
"So what are the theological implications of all this? Well Barrow and Tipler wrote this book, The Anthropic Cosmological Principle, and they saw the design of the universe. But they're atheists basically, there's no God. And they go through some long arguments to describe why humans are the only intelligent life in the universe. That's what they believe. So they got a problem. If the universe is clearly the product of design, but humans are the only intelligent life in the universe, who creates the universe? So you know what Barrow and Tipler's solution is? It makes perfect sense. Humans evolve to a point some day where they reach back in time and create the universe for themselves. (Audience laughs) Hey these guys are respected scientists. So what brings them to that conclusion? It is because the evidence for design is so overwhelming that if you don't have God you have humans creating the universe back in time for themselves." - Michael Strauss PhD. - Particle Physics Anthropic Principle - God Created The Universe - Michael Strauss PhD. - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4323661 quote taken from the the 6:49 minute mark:
bornagain77
February 20, 2013
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Unfortunately there isn;t anything that sez “evolutiondidit” never mind blind watchmaker evolution. IOW all Nick haz is “these look like transitionals to us.”
Oh wow gee, transitional fossils just look transitional, but actually they are not. What a stunning rebuttal you've got! The previous commentator specifically requested transitional fossils. Sorry for answering his question. Yet more evidence of the craven, dishonest intellectual bankruptcy that is par for the course around UD. Apparently no one has the combination of brains and guts to admit the obvious thing: yes, there are a lot of transitional fossils leading to humans, and this, objectively viewed, is an important confirmatory piece of evidence for evolutionary theory.NickMatzke_UD
February 20, 2013
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What’s a species, Nick?
Operationally, a reproductively isolated gene pool that has been isolated long enough to be detectably different.
Great, how many mutations does it take to get a new body part and a new body plan? Don’t know, then what good is it?
You seriously think there is going to be a single number that answers this? What's your definition of new?
How many mutations does it take to get a new species, Nick?
The number could be anywhere from zero (speciation by geographic isolation, adaptive divergence of prexisting genetic variation) to one (chromosomal incompatibility through a chromosomal rearrangement or polyploidy event) to lots (gradual buildup of differences leading to increasing percentages of infertility, until 100% is reached). Many examples of all these cases are known. See Coyne & Orr, Speciation. Furthermore, this kind of question reveals stunning naivete and lack of education in the field you so confidently and arrogantly dismiss. Demanding for a single number like that is like demanding that a physicist tell you how many planets go around each star, as if the answer would be the same for each star.NickMatzke_UD
February 20, 2013
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Nick Matzke:
Easy. Human ancestors. And why just one fossil? That’s bizarre. We have hundreds: http://pandasthumb.org/archive.....ini-1.html http://www.talkorigins.org/faq.....inids.html
Unfortunately there isn;t anything that sez "evolutiondidit" never mind blind watchmaker evolution. IOW all Nick haz is "these look like transitionals to us."Joe
February 20, 2013
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Nick Matzke, “based on years of personal experience and work in the area” are you in a position to name a single extant mammal species and a single fossil that you are aware of which demonstrates macro-evolution?
Easy. Human ancestors. And why just one fossil? That's bizarre. We have hundreds: http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2006/09/fun-with-homini-1.html http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/hominids.htmlNickMatzke_UD
February 20, 2013
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Nick (101): Nope, over in the real-life science of hominid origins, we have hundreds of dated fossils skulls, showing the very gradual, step-by-tiny step acquisition of the features that make up the modern human head, (..)
You got this completely wrong Nick. Do read ‘Science & Human Origins’. You can find an introductory article, by Casey Luskin here. Excerpt: “If human beings evolved from ape-like creatures, what were the transitional species between ape-like hominins and the truly human-like members of the genus Homo found in the fossil record? There aren't any good candidates.”Box
February 20, 2013
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Bevets, great to see you. Unfortunately, the streaming is locked out internationally. KFkairosfocus
February 20, 2013
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F/N 2: I spoke above, of course on the Fair Comment doctrine. I have now put up the suggested onward thread for discussing the issues Mr Matzke raised, here. KFkairosfocus
February 20, 2013
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I think produced one of the most helpful illustrations of how macroevolution works.bevets
February 20, 2013
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Nick Matzke (95): “Now, if what he [Professor Tour] meant wasn’t “macroevolution”, but specifically the evolution of developmental systems, i.e. evo-devo — which is what those articles are about — then the request for “chemical details” would make a tiny bit more sense, but it’s still bizarre.”
Good point Nick! Why would anyone want to understand the chemical details? Bizarre indeed. If only people, like Professor Tour, were able to grasp your concept of macroevolution they would understand how utterly trivial those details really are.Box
February 20, 2013
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F/N: I think NM has raised a series of issues worth a separate thread, and intend to put one up shortly. That will allow this one to focus on Dr Tour's points of concern. KFkairosfocus
February 20, 2013
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