Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Abiogenensis Research Is ID Research

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An ID hypothesis is that abiogenesis is practically impossible without intelligent agency. A predictionmade by this hypothesis is that no method of abiogenesis absent intelligent intervention can ever be demonstrated in a laboratory. The prediction may be falsified in principle by demonstrating a chemical pathway whereby abiogenesis takes place. This is a legitimate hypothesis that makes a testable prediction. Therefore all attempts to demonstrate that abiogenesis is possible absent intelligent intervention is an attempt to falsify biological ID. So I don’t want to hear the tired canard again that ID has no research programs. We have many of them and they’ve been going on for God only knows how long. At least since Aristotle in 350 B.C. said it was a readily observable truth that aphids arise from the dew which falls on plants, fleas from putrid matter, mice from dirty hay, and so forth. Through Louis Pasteur’s experiments showing sterile mediums remain sterile forever in 1862. To the Miller-Urey experiment “demonstrating” how electrical discharges, water, and a few noxious gasses could produce a dilute concentration of a few amino acids. Biological ID research has thus demonstrably been proceeding for thousands of years and continues through today most recently with Harvard University throwing its hat in the ring setting out to prove abiogenesis is possible and plausible committing $1 million per year to the effort. But don’t you dare say that 2000+ years of failure is anything more than an argument from ignorance you ignorant IDers! 😛

Comments
John Davison: I regard your response as a cop out. Sorry about that. If you referring to post #56 I find your response to it rather strange. I never claimed to know exactly where "they" are. I never claimed to know exactly where "they" will turn up. And even if I knew I would not post it on the internet. That said, I, for one, am not going to dismiss the evidence that we have been and continue to be visited. But now we are way off-topic, so I offer my apologies to DS for bringing the thread down this tangent.Joseph
September 17, 2006
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John The Discovery Military Channel (formerly Discovery Wings) is pretty good. So is Animal Planet, National Geographic, The History Channel, and a number of others. Out of 500 some channels I get the pickings are surprisingly slim. In the near future there might be 500,000 and then the SETI stuff might actually come in handy for finding which ones contain intelligent programming.DaveScot
September 17, 2006
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joseph I regard your response as a cop out. Sorry about that. "A past evolution is undeniable, a present evolution undemonstrable."John A. Davison
September 17, 2006
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Monimonika: Is there a list somewhere that names (potentially) IC structures in existing biological organisms? The reason I ask is because I’m not sure on how to search for it, would like to see what constitutes as being IC, and how these structures are related to each other. The only "list" I am aware of is in Dr Behe's "Darwin's Black Box". However that list does not contain a living organism. In "No Free Lunch" Wm. Dembski provides the following:
IC- A system performing a given basic function is irreducibly complex if it includes a set of well-matched, mutually interacting, non-arbitrarily individuated parts such that each part in the set is indispensable to maintaining the system’s basic, and therefore original, function. The set of these indispensable parts is known as the irreducible core of the system. Numerous and Diverse Parts If the irreducible core of an IC system consists of one or only a few parts, there may be no insuperable obstacle to the Darwinian mechanism explaining how that system arose in one fell swoop. But as the number of indispensable well-fitted, mutually interacting,, non-arbitrarily individuated parts increases in number & diversity, there is no possibility of the Darwinian mechanism achieving that system in one fell swoop. Minimal Complexity and Function Given an IC system with numerous & diverse parts in its core, the Darwinian mechanism must produce it gradually. But if the system needs to operate at a certain minimal level of function before it can be of any use to the organism & if to achieve that level of function it requires a certain minimal level of complexity already possessed by the irreducible core, the Darwinian mechanism has no functional intermediates to exploit.
Monimoniker: Actually, is there a proposed timeline of any sort of when the intelligent designer(s) tweaked/designed organisms (an answer of “once, at the very beginning of life,” gives too much omnipotence to the designer, I think)? No timeline yet exists. We are still studying the data, as well as still detecting the design(s). Nothing about the designer is known via the (a) scientific method- except that the designer is/ was much more intelligent than we are. We don't know if the designer still exists- the design does so we study it. And I doubt we could use the designs to predict what, if anything, will be designed in the future. As for motives/ intentions of the designer- "The Privileged Planet" authors (Gonzalez & Richards) state that the purpose for the design of the universe was for scientific discovery. And in order to do that one needs discoverers somewhere in the design which will allow for that.Joseph
September 17, 2006
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John Davison: Now that they are here where can I find one? Unfortunately it isn't as easy as that. Most times you will be found or you just have to be in the right place at the right time. John Davison: I want to discuss certain matters with it. Get in line.Joseph
September 17, 2006
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joseph Now that they are here where can I find one? I want to discuss certain matters with it. "A past evolution is undeniable, a pesent evolution undemonstrable." John A. DavisonJohn A. Davison
September 17, 2006
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Yes, Alan, existence is the essence of the debate. Why does anything exist? And why does it exist with such exquisite precision? The cause of both should be given a name.jerry
September 17, 2006
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I just think that “supernatural” has become almost a nonsense-word. Yes, giving a concept a name does not give it existence.Alan Fox
September 17, 2006
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I'm not sure if this question is appropriate here, but I am curious as to the answer for it. Is there a list somewhere that names (potentially) IC structures in existing biological organisms? The reason I ask is because I'm not sure on how to search for it, would like to see what constitutes as being IC, and how these structures are related to each other. My idea is that if an intelligent designer was involved, then there should be some type of reasoning behind the designing and that reasoning would most likely be shared among the designs of the IC structures. Example of a reason could be the advancement of a particular type of organism. Also, if there could be found evidence that the timings of the designing of the IC structures are similar to each other, the more I would be able to see a possible intelligent designer (or at least some significant event) being responsible for the similarities. Of course, this assumes that the designer only tweaked stuff once or twice, and doesn't take into account the potential of multiple designers (all with different intentions). Actually, is there a proposed timeline of any sort of when the intelligent designer(s) tweaked/designed organisms (an answer of "once, at the very beginning of life," gives too much omnipotence to the designer, I think)? Is the designer still capable of designing things? If not, why not? If so, can we ever possibly observe it happening? Even if the designer can't be detected itself, can't we at least be lucky enough to see the instantaneous (since for some reason there's supposedly no mechanism to observe) designing of a new IC structure? Sorry for all the questions at the end there. It's just that I can't help but question and speculate about the motives/intentions of a designer when, by definition, IC structures are to have been designed with some purpose/function in mind. And once I start speculating on motive, I start wondering about the potential future behavior of the designer. So, can someone be kind enough to provide a list? Thank you.Monimonika
September 17, 2006
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John Davison: What are you yout talking about in # 47 or would you rather not say? They're here. We've been visited. We are not alone. There are others who have figured out much more about the universe and the laws that govern it than we have. John Davison: I don’t get it. That's OK. It isn't for everyone to "get". You appear to be doing quite well with the things you do "get". And even those with first-hand accounts don't "get it". PS I was married in Vermont... --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- to trrll, We have been actively broadcasting into space, for quite some time, ie several decades.Joseph
September 16, 2006
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joseph What are you yout talking about in # 47 or would you rather not say? I don't get it. "A past evolution is undeniable, a present evolution undemonstrable," John A. DavisonJohn A. Davison
September 16, 2006
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DaveScot - message 45 The only regular programming worth watching on cable TV is the Fox News Channel, Channel 76 here in Vermont. But that is just me. I have it on all the time. "A past evolution is undeniable, a present evolution undemonstrable." John A. DavisonJohn A. Davison
September 16, 2006
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I used to dream about SETI being successful. It’s been a great disappointment. A waste? Maybe. I think we had to give it the old college try.
It was always fundamentally a long shot, based upon the rather doubtful assumption that we had reached such a pinnacle of technological development that a substantial fraction of interstellar civilization would be using communication systems similar to ours, and furthermore, would be actively broadcasting to space (a somewhat doubtful assumption, considering that we aren't doing it ourselves). But you never know unless you look.trrll
September 16, 2006
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John Davison: If life existed elsewhere in the cosmos we would have been made aware of it long ago. We have been made aware of it, long ago as well as the present.Joseph
September 16, 2006
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Alan Fox, "Like a magic trick, presumably. If one were observing the interaction, the supernatural cause would be invisible, but the effect would manifest itself by an abberation in the physical properties of matter. A supernatural soccer player kicks a real ball. We only see the ball fly off the ground." But even in the situation you just mentioned (supernatural soccer player kicking a ball), you have both intention (agent wants to kick the ball) and result (ball is kicked). In this case, we can't deny that it has happened - at the same time, we can't deny that there is a mechanism in place that allowed this to occur. And, of course, if we were ever to discover the mechanism, it would cease to be supernatural. That's my problem with the concept of 'supernatural'. All it (and words like it) really do is highlight the fact that we're in the dark as to how it happens - because, as near as I can tell, it is impossible to have both a supernatural effect, and to understand how it actually works. Not that I have a suitable alternative definition; for my part, I'm starting to wonder if everything in the universe (and outside of it, naturally) qualifies as supernatural, as we're all the result of agencies beyond our comprehension. Anyway, that's philosophical, and not for this thread - I just think that "supernatural" has become almost a nonsense-word. jerry, "The no necessity to intervene philosophy is called “theistic evolution” and many very strongly defend it. They do not like the idea of a Tinkering God even though a Tinkering God is part of Judeo Christian theology but so is an omnipotent God." Thanks for the additional clarification. I'm interested in ID (and theistic evolution), and still have much to learn. Personally, I don't see how someone's belief in theistic evolution could eliminate the need for a tinkerer God. In fact, such a God would have to be tinkering constantly; even an event which is a result of entirely mechanical processes could be truly miraculous (Fatima comes to mind as a potential, if non-biological example) as every mechanical possibility was lined up well in advance to account for visions, prophecy, and miracle. Either way, enough questions and comments from me. I have a lot to learn, and so I hit the links you've pointed out. Thanks once again!nullasalus
September 16, 2006
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Dreaming about abiogenesis is just about as realistic as SETI was, a monumental waste of resources and time if you ask me, or even if you don’t ask me. Hey! In the immortal words of Archie Bunker: "I resemble that remark." I used to dream about SETI being successful. It's been a great disappointment. A waste? Maybe. I think we had to give it the old college try. The Copernican Principle of Mediocrity was at stake. Mediocrity is a lame duck as far as I'm concerned now. This our third rock from the sun appears to be quite special. There's probably a lot of technology spinoff with other applications too. SETI is basically an exercise in scanning a zillion different radio frequencies as fast as possible looking for signs of intelligence in all the junk. The same techology could be used someday, for example, to find things worth watching on cable TV.DaveScot
September 16, 2006
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Let's say someone creates a self-replicating system that qualifies as being alive. Are we to believe that creature will now evolve into more complex organisms? Let's get real shall we? Probably not. Dreaming about abiogenesis is just about as realistic as SETI was, a monumental waste of resources and time if you ask me, or even if you don't ask me. If life existed elsewhere in the cosmos we would have been made aware of it long ago. The origin and evolution of life WAS never a statistical matter and there is no place for chance in either ontogeny or phylogeny. There never was. "Neither in the one nor in the other is there room for chance." Leo Berg, Nomogenesis, page 134 "Everything is determined...by forces over which we have no control." Albert Einstein "A past evolution is undeniable, a present evolution undemonstrable." John A. DavisonJohn A. Davison
September 16, 2006
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nullasalus, Your questions get asked frequently. "what would a supernatural agency’s effect on the natural world look like?" - In Christian theology, a resurrection. In Judeo Christian theology, manna from the sky. in science, the appearance of a universe that is incredibly fine-tuned and the appearance of a cell that is also incredibly fine-tuned. Now there are no current witnesses to any of this so it would be difficult to assess any of this first hand. "And if you’re dealing with an omnipotent or omniscient being, why would a supernatural agency need to actively intervene?" - This has been discussed ad nausea here. One of the issues is that some believe there is no need for God to intervene because He could have set the whole thing in motion because as you say He is omnipotent or omniscient. However, others have looked at the evidence and concluded at some point an intelligent being did something and that is what Intelligent Design is about. Here is the link to ID's definition https://uncommondescent.com/index.php/id-defined/ There is no need for the designer to be supernatural in terms of the cell. The universe is another issue. The no necessity to intervene philosophy is called "theistic evolution" and many very strongly defend it. They do not like the idea of a Tinkering God even though a Tinkering God is part of Judeo Christian theology but so is an omnipotent God. Probabilities play an important role in defining what is chance or not. A lot of ID is based on applying probabilities to observed events. If you hit the lottery, that is not necessarily chance since someone will win it. If you hit it twice in a row everybody will suspect something is wrong. If you hit it three times in a row everybody will know something is wrong. Darwinists believe in hitting the lottery everytime you turn around. It is incredibe the number of lotteries they have hit. ID people know that when you hit the jackpot that often, something has been fixed.jerry
September 16, 2006
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Can you provide a completely hypothetical example of this? I mean.. what would a supernatural agency’s effect on the natural world look like? Like a magic trick, presumably. If one were observing the interaction, the supernatural cause would be invisible, but the effect would manifest itself by an abberation in the physical properties of matter. A supernatural soccer player kicks a real ball. We only see the ball fly off the ground. And if you’re dealing with an omnipotent or omniscient being, why would a supernatural agency need to actively intervene? I am probably not the best person to answer this question, but, why indeed?Alan Fox
September 16, 2006
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Also it isn't about ID research vs evolutionary research. Right now it is about conducting scientific research and being allowed to have a design inference if that is what the data affords.Joseph
September 16, 2006
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Dr Behe:
“Coyne’s conclusion that design is unfalsifiable, however, seems to be at odds with the arguments of other reviewers of my book. Clearly, Russell Doolittle (Doolittle 1997), Kenneth Miller (Miller 1999), and others have advanced scientific arguments aimed at falsifying ID. (See my articles on blood clotting and the “acid test” on this web site.) If the results with knock-out mice (Bugge et al. 1996) had been as Doolittle first thought, or if Barry Hall’s work (Hall 1999) had indeed shown what Miller implied, then they correctly believed my claims about irreducible complexity would have suffered quite a blow. And since my claim for intelligent design requires that no unintelligent process be sufficient to produce such irreducibly complex systems, then the plausibility of ID would suffer enormously. Other scientists, including those on the National Academy of Science’s Steering Committee on Science and Creationism, in commenting on my book have also pointed to physical evidence (such as the similar structures of hemoglobin and myoglobin) which they think shows that irreducibly complex biochemical systems can be produced by natural selection: “However, structures and processes that are claimed to be ‘irreducibly’ complex typically are not on closer inspection.” (National Academy of Sciences 1999, p. 22) Now, one can’t have it both ways. One can’t say both that ID is unfalsifiable (or untestable) and that there is evidence against it. Either it is unfalsifiable and floats serenely beyond experimental reproach, or it can be criticized on the basis of our observations and is therefore testable. The fact that critical reviewers advance scientific arguments against ID (whether successfully or not) shows that intelligent design is indeed falsifiable. In fact,[I] my argument for intelligent design is open to direct experimental rebuttal.[/I] Here is a thought experiment that makes the point clear. In Darwin’s Black Box (Behe 1996) I claimed that the bacterial flagellum was irreducibly complex and so required deliberate intelligent design. The flip side of this claim is that the flagellum can’t be produced by natural selection acting on random mutation, or any other unintelligent process. To falsify such a claim, a scientist could go into the laboratory, place a bacterial species lacking a flagellum under some selective pressure (for mobility, say), grow it for ten thousand generations, and see if a flagellum--or any equally complex system--was produced. If that happened, my claims would be neatly disproven. How about Professor Coyne’s concern that, if one system were shown to be the result of natural selection, proponents of ID could just claim that some other system was designed? I think the objection has little force. If natural selection were shown to be capable of producing a system of a certain degree of complexity, then the assumption would be that it could produce any other system of an equal or lesser degree of complexity. If Coyne demonstrated that the flagellum (which requires approximately forty gene products) could be produced by selection, I would be rather foolish to then assert that the blood clotting system (which consists of about twenty proteins) required intelligent design.”
Seeing that living organisms are the ultimate in biological IC demonstrating that they (it) can arise from non-living matter via unguided, purpose-less processes would falsify ID- by Dr Behe's criteria.Joseph
September 16, 2006
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John Singleton asks for examples of research programs trying to create a cell by abiotic means. http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=0009FCA4-1A8F-1085-94F483414B7F0000 http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20020713/fob8.asp http://syntheticbiology.org/ These links should get you started. Enjoy! I sure have.DaveScot
September 16, 2006
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trrll I did not say that the results are not applicable to issues of interest to ID advocates (although some of them clearly are not). I said that they are not ID research, in the sense of research based upon the predictions of an ID theory and designed to test those predictions. What’s in a name? that which we call a rose By any other name would smell as sweet. - William Shakespeare They are ID research in every sense that matters. Motivation is irrelevant.DaveScot
September 16, 2006
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Since when do the motivations of researchers define the applicability of anything they might discover?
I did not say that the results are not applicable to issues of interest to ID advocates (although some of them clearly are not). I said that they are not ID research, in the sense of research based upon the predictions of an ID theory and designed to test those predictions.trrll
September 16, 2006
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To DaveScot -- see comment #18 and your comment "Yes, there are positive ID programs! Many intelligent researchers are trying to create a living cell artificially by abiotic means" What are these ID programs and who are conducting them? There are lot of people skeptical that there is any real research being done on ID so if there is it might be a good opportunity to advertise this act.John Singleton
September 15, 2006
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Alan Fox, "Sorry, Tina, but, yes. “acts upon matter” has to be a real, detectable, measurable phenomenon. If you believe supernatural agencies can affect the natural world, you should be able to detect those effects at the interface." Can you provide a completely hypothetical example of this? I mean.. what would a supernatural agency's effect on the natural world look like? And if you're dealing with an omnipotent or omniscient being, why would a supernatural agency need to actively intervene? Even if abiogenesis were demonstrated - even if it was exceptionally unlikely - said being could have foreseen this even prior to the universe's creation. That's my one worry, and the most intriguing part of ID. How do you know when what seems like an event of utter chance really is such? And that seems like the ultimate conflict between ID and darwinism - chance versus intention. If non-living matter has given or can give rise to living matter, is non-living matter really.. non-living? But those are philosophical questions. This is my first post, by the way, and I hope to stay within the rules of this very interesting site at all times. Thank you.nullasalus
September 15, 2006
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DaveScot, "I’m sorry, but unless I have some inkling of how a designer or designer is structured I can’t agree with any assertions about what they must or must not be like. All they MUST have is some mastery of organic chemistry. What you’ve brought up is the classic “but who designed the designer” argument. I have no more idea of who designed the designer than I have of where the matter and energy in the univserse comes from. Maybe the designer came from there too. I can only analyze what I can observe and all I can observe in the realm of life is organic life here on earth. " In the absense of evidence for strictly natural abiogenesis, you claim that a designer, by default, is responsible for designing life one Earth. My response to this was, indeed, a “but who designed the designer” argument. If the original designer was neither alive nor super-natural, you are left with something that should REALLY set your incredulity alarm, not as much ringing, as howling.Hawks
September 15, 2006
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Dave, What say you to the idea that deep sea vents, say 3 billion years ago, could have been a possible venue for abiogenesis. Insulated from atmospheric conditions, meteor bombardment, high UV, complex chemicals could have been formed in the hot rocks below the sea floor and fixed when spewed out into the cool sea water. Chemosynthesis (sulphur) rather than photosynthesis could have been the energy source for the first life-forms.Alan Fox
September 15, 2006
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tinabrewer wrote:
I mentioned on one of the other abiogenesis threads the idea that even if we could get self-replicating molecules in a lab , that this still would not in any way show that intelligent agency is absent from biogenesis. What if the agency which organizes molecules into life is non-material but acts upon matter? Then, this assemblage could well be repeated anytime the perfectly appropriate conditions are met physically. Is this faulty thinking?
Sorry, Tina, but, yes. "acts upon matter" has to be a real, detectable, measurable phenomenon. If you believe supernatural agencies can affect the natural world, you should be able to detect those effects at the interface.Alan Fox
September 15, 2006
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trrll Since when do the motivations of researchers define the applicability of anything they might discover?DaveScot
September 15, 2006
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