Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Agnostic & Non-Theistic ID Proponents/Sympathizers – Speak Up

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Intelligent Design is often accused of being entirely driven by religious motivations. I don’t think there’s anything about ID itself that warrants this conclusion, but I do think it’s obvious that ID’s supporters by and large tend to be religious. Even I’m a religious theist (Catholic, though a poor one by most standards), and some, though not all, of my ID interest is spurred by metaphysical considerations. At the same time, I see nothing in ID that mandates a person being religious, even theistic in the common sense of the term.

Which brings me to this thread. I’d like to invite an agnostics or non-theists who are either ID proponents, or are ID sympathetic, to speak up here. In fact, I’m going to lay out a few ground rules that I hope all will follow, in the hopes of keeping this thread particularly on-target.

* No barbs related to religious belief or theism, pro- or anti-. That means no proselytizing in either direction, no insults about anyone’s religious beliefs or lack thereof. In addition, let’s keep this respectful – assuming any non-theists or agnostics speak up.
* Again, the focus here is on ID sympathetic or proponents who are also agnostics or non-theists. Agnostic or non-theist ID critics, this isn’t the thread for you to lay out what you believe or don’t believe. Chances are I’m well aware anyway.
* Feel free to lay out what convinces or appeals to you about ID, what ID inferences you make or have made, etc. If you want to go further than ID and speculate on who or what you think the designer may be, feel free.
* If you’re an agnostic or a non-theist who thinks they may be ID sympathetic, but isn’t sure (For instance, you believe in design but also common descent and suspect this combination means you’re not

If any additional clarification is needed, just ask away. I’m honestly curious if – and frankly, hopeful that – some appropriate responses pop up here.

Comments
Meleagar, As many here know, I was an atheist when I first became intrigued with ID (cosmological ID through the fine-tuning of the laws of physics at first, and later, biological ID when a Christian friend suggested I read Michael Denton's first book). The famous atheist Antony Flew abandoned his atheism as a result of ID arguments. Another interesting thread would involve inviting ex-atheists to comment on how ID influenced them.GilDodgen
May 12, 2011
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This most interesting post has been stuck to the top all day. Other coverage continues below. Some atheists, like Bradley Monton, sympathize with ID as a good question in science and criticize some of its opponents. Some agnostics like Steve Fuller can be put in the same camp. (Berlinski anyone?) Some atheists an agnostics have written material that is anti-Darwinist (Fodor, Stove, Caton), anti-materialist (Tallis, Nagel). You could search on this site for stories featuring their comments, if of interest.News
May 12, 2011
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Mel On the behalf of many commenters and contributors at UD, thank you for the kind words. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 12, 2011
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When I first came across ID I was an atheist. However, being married to a firm believer in god, my love for my wife had tempered any condescension or vitriol I had previously felt for the religious. I became interested in ID simply because, for whatever reason, I immediately recognized the arguments against ID to be contrived, and the arguments that ID proponents were making were not only intuitively on target, they were sound rationally. I really began realizing that what I thought was sound logic and reasoning for atheism, was really just emotion-appealing rhetoric and artful dodging of fundamental contradictions of necessary first principles and right reasoning. ID introduced me to a world of theistic reasoning that I had frankly never been exposed to before. My atheism - like that of many, I imagine - was more of an emotional reaction to the blatantly cartoonish, ultra-hypocritical, unbelievable, and unsupportable-even-if-true God I was presented with by those who raised me (or, at least, that's how my young mind perceived the god that had been presented). There was no way, I thought at the time, that any reasonable, intelligent person could believe in such an entity. ID theorists and calm, reasoned arguments by theistic philosophers involved in ID, and their logical dismantling of the atheistic/materialist perspective into incoherency due to lack of any necessary first principles eventually made me realize that no argument can be sustained by basis unless logic and truth exist as their own commodities, and not as the relativistic, solipsistic computations of material machinery. Either God exists, or we must admit we each live in a solipsistic bubble of material programming utterly incapable of discerning true statements from false, without even a meaningful way to do so, and without any reason to do so. ID proponents elegantly demonstrated that you can no more argue truth or attain teleology from the "is" of mechanical materialism than you can honestly argue by the merits that a long series of happy accidents can generate the deep, interconnected, inter-dependent complex coded nano-technology found in a single cell. ID proponents laid the groundwork for me to set aside my emotional barricade against the idea of god and re-examine the issue from a more adult and logical perspective. To borrow from Dawkins, ID has made it possible for me to be an intellectually fulfilled theist. With that more sound and reasoned theism, I have found a peace, happiness and fulfillment that before had always eluded me. So, if any ID advocates here get tired and think that their arguments are falling on deaf ears, let my story here motivate you to keep you in the debate. The tools provided by Behe, Dembski, Meyer and so many here - GilDodgen, kairosfocus, vjtorley, nullasalas, Denyse, Barry, bornagain,etc. - the links, the books, the arguments - have not only made a profound difference in my life, but in the lives of many people I know who were once atheistic or agnostic, and are now disabused of that unsupportable position and are also intellectually fulfilled theists. Thank you. ID and the love a good, theistic woman has transformed my life.Meleagar
May 12, 2011
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Hi nullasalus I am a non-theist and a supporter of ID. I do not believe in a personal God. Nor am I a deist. I do however acknowledge there are many things we do not know, and we may share this universe with forces and perhaps entities that are currently beyond our understanding. I support the idea that natural processes as currently understood are woefully inadequate to explain the history of life, and, in particular, the development of consciousness in biological organisms. The modern sciences are trending towards a naive materialism, whilst philosophy and metaphysics have taken a back seat, and I think is a worrying situation. On the other hand, whilst I believe ID is making progress pointing out the flaws in materialist philosophy, far too much time is wasted attacking the physical theory of evolution per se. The front of the battle has moved on. Cheers CLAVDIVSCLAVDIVS
May 12, 2011
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Markf, Partly because the paper was inane. Mostly because it's off-topic - I made it clear who I was hoping to hear from in this thread, and the conduct I wanted people to adhere to. I'm not thrilled to see someone already trying to go off topic by comment 5. Save it for some other thread.nullasalus
May 12, 2011
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#6 Nullasus Why is it that so many of you get so aggressive and personal so quickly in a discussion? I only pointed out a paper by Sober.markf
May 12, 2011
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Prof. FX Gumby, Speaking as the antithesis of your targeted commenter (a theistic evolutionist), I’m very interested to see what responses you get and the reasons for their beliefs. As am I. There's a good chance there will be no takers - Eric Anderson's reply was interesting, but not quite the agnostic/non-theist I was hoping for. I always wondered if there were any ID sympathetic sorts among the transhumanists and singularitarians, even if they'd probably be hostile to the ID movement they perceive.nullasalus
May 12, 2011
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But with only a few extremely plausible assumptions then ID entails a God or supernatural being of some kind. Man, ID proponents must love guys like you. And given that Sober says his argument "owes a debt to Aquinas", despite it being an IC argument which Aquinas never made, and assuming a finite universe as Aquinas expressly avoided in his arguments, I'll quickly conclude "Sober's kind of slow" and leave it at that. I may well not see any non-theists or agnostics reply here, but be that as it may, I'm not interested in turning this into the inane anti-ID apologetics thread.nullasalus
May 12, 2011
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I don't think you will get any atheists. It is logically possible to believe in ID and not believe in a God of some kind. But with only a few extremely plausible assumptions then ID entails a God or supernatural being of some kind. See this article by Elliot Sober.markf
May 12, 2011
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Speaking as the antithesis of your targeted commenter (a theistic evolutionist), I'm very interested to see what responses you get and the reasons for their beliefs.Prof. FX Gumby
May 11, 2011
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I don't qualify as agnostic or non-religious, as I consider myself a religious person, but I don't have a particular religious commitment either for or against ID in the narrow sense, meaning the idea that life arose and developed to its current state of diversity and complexity through some kind of intelligent agency, rather than unguided natural processes. My interest in ID at that level is primarily logical and scientific -- what does the evidence show in terms of what is required for the origin and development of life? At that level, I find ID to be extremely convincing. I also don't know that I have a particular philosophical commitment to broader ID: the design of the universe, laws of nature, etc. I do, however, accept what my personal experience tells me, namely that teleology is a real phenomenon. I would therefore tend to discount any theory that claims to do away with teleology and reduce reality to a natural consequence of matter and energy, so perhaps in that sense I have a philosophical tendency toward teleological explanations.Eric Anderson
May 11, 2011
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Is it possible to be an atheist and believe in Intelligent Design? Sure, why not? The designer in question could be something other than God or a god, after all, for much ID. I always like to refer to Dembski's quote on this front: ID’s metaphysical openness about the nature of nature entails a parallel openness about the nature of the designer. Is the designer an intelligent alien, a computional simulator (a la THE MATRIX), a Platonic demiurge, a Stoic seminal reason, an impersonal telic process, …, or the infinite personal transcendent creator God of Christianity? The empirical data of nature simply can’t decide. (Whether one could believe our universe is designed yet be an atheist is another question, and one I personally doubt. I think at the very least that commits one to deism, polytheism, or otherwise, at least in a typical sense of those terms. Still, ID proponents aren't committed to endorsing all ID claims universally.)nullasalus
May 11, 2011
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Is it possible to be an atheist and believe in Intelligent Design?lastyearon
May 11, 2011
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I just read the intro a bit more carefully and realised you dont welcome comments from ID critics who are also non-theists. Sigh.Graham
May 11, 2011
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