Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Alfred Russel Wallace vs. Charles Darwin on cruelty in nature

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

In World of Life, Alfred Russel Wallace, Darwin’s co-theorist, directly addressed one of Darwin’s key reasons for rejecting design in nature, in a letter to American supporter Asa Gray:

With respect to the theological view of the question; this is always painful to me.— I am bewildered.— I had no intention to write atheistically. But I own that I cannot see, as plainly as others do, & as I shd wish to do, evidence of design & beneficence on all sides of us. There seems to me too much misery in the world. I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent & omnipotent God would have designedly created the Ichneumonidæ with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of caterpillars, or that a cat should play with mice. Not believing this, I see no necessity in the belief that the eye was expressly designed. On the other hand I cannot anyhow be contented to view this wonderful universe & especially the nature of man, & to conclude that everything is the result of brute force. I am inclined to look at everything as resulting from designed laws, with the details, whether good or bad, left to the working out of what we may call chance. Not that this notion at all satisfies me. I feel most deeply that the whole subject is too profound for the human intellect. A dog might as well speculate on the mind of Newton.— Let each man hope & believe what he can.— (Letter 2814 — Darwin, C. R. to Gray, Asa, 22 May [1860])

Now, Darwin was a slippery character, as biographers have acknowledged, and he had been a materialist atheist long before he had any theory of evolution to propose, so his pretense of coming to these conclusions reluctantly was just that – a pretense. (See Flannery on this.)

However, Wallace addresses both examples in The World of Life. With respect to insects, he notes,

There is, of course, a large body of facts which indicate that whole classes of animals, though very highly organized, suffer nothing which can be called pain, as in the insects; and similar facts show us that even the highest warm-blooded animals suffer very much less than we do. (P. 185)

Now, re insects, Wallace is surely right, and I have never been much impressed by Darwin’s example of the Ichneumon wasp laying its larvae in caterpillars. There is little evidence that the caterpillar knows or cares that it simultaneously gorges and is gorged. Whether a given caterpillar pupates or dies is not an instance of any great evil in the world, provided no ecology is upset.

About “the highest, warm-blooded” animals, I am not so sure. However, one source of human suffering that animals don’t have is a “metacognitive” understanding of their condition. That is, the old dog Rover may think, ”I feel sick. I have no appetite, no energy. I just want to sleep all the time.” His people know, “Rover has an inoperable cancer. Sedatives and painkillers for now. Later, we must make a decision …” Rover is forever barred from knowing the nature of his condition, in the human, metacognitive sense, so there are many sources of suffering he simply cannot experience.

With respect to cats, Wallace notes, “It must be remembered that in a state of nature the Carnivora hunt and kill to satisfy hunger, not for amusement; and all conclusions derived from the house-fed cat and mouse are fallacious.” (p. 181)

One might add that the biggest worry for a wild cat or other small carnivore that its catch might be stolen by a bigger animal. Swallowing the prey whole is a common preventive tactic. (The prey may be disgorged later, of course, for offspring – but meanwhile, it is secure down the hatch.)

See Michael A. Flannery’s Alfred Russel Wallace’s Theory of Intelligent Evolution (Erasmus, 2009) for more.

Comments
In the Hebrew text, the word for "soul" is the same whether referring to a man or an animal. When Adam died he returned to the dust from which he was made. Solomon wrote that man, despite all that he does in his life, dies just as an animal does. The superiority of man over animal is that man was created in God's image, and the animals were given for man to dominate.ScottAndrews
July 27, 2009
July
07
Jul
27
27
2009
06:35 AM
6
06
35
AM
PDT
Herb, Perhaps that is why Oramus placed quotation marks around the offending word.Upright BiPed
July 27, 2009
July
07
Jul
27
27
2009
01:57 AM
1
01
57
AM
PDT
Oramus,
The rabbit produces several to keep a few and ‘donates’ the rest to other members of the animal kingdom. Snakes produce hundreds to keep several. Insects produces thousands to keep hundreds.
I agree that it's often a mistake to view animal interactions in anthropomorphic terms, and your use of the word "donates" here is an excellent example.herb
July 27, 2009
July
07
Jul
27
27
2009
12:24 AM
12
12
24
AM
PDT
IMO it is a mistake to view the activity of the 'lower' animals in anthropomorphic terms i.e the wasp is being 'cruel' to the catepillar or the lion is being 'cruel' to the young antelope. If you haven't noticed, each and every animal except Man provides a portion of its population to feed another member of the animal kingdom. The rabbit produces several to keep a few and 'donates' the rest to other members of the animal kingdom. Snakes produce hundreds to keep several. Insects produces thousands to keep hundreds. However, humans being the 'master link' (we are the only animals that are not predator AND prey), having dominion over the rest of the animal kingdom, and having rational souls (see vjtorley above) we are not subject to this requirement. Our rational souls provide us the capability to exert self-control over our reproductive behavior. I.e. only humans can regulate population by 'choice'. Whether we exercise that choice is another matter. But the fact remains. There is great irony in that Man, not being subject to the natural 'sword', would forego prudent voluntary reproductive restraint, but rather reproduce with abandon, then slashes the fruit of its own loins with equal abandon. Truly, there is no cruelty in nature except in Man.Oramus
July 26, 2009
July
07
Jul
26
26
2009
09:41 PM
9
09
41
PM
PDT
vjtorley,
Thanks for your question. Actually, I haven’t eaten meat since 1987. I stopped eating fish and seafood as well, but took up eating them again a couple of years ago, for health-related reasons. (snip)
Thanks for your thoughtful answer. Do you think that kosher slaughter in particular should now be abandoned given that there exist methods which apparently cause the animals to suffer less?herb
July 26, 2009
July
07
Jul
26
26
2009
08:10 AM
8
08
10
AM
PDT
Mr Charrington:
The odd thing is, you see, that a large % of people believe in evolution.
An even larger % do not.Joseph
July 26, 2009
July
07
Jul
26
26
2009
07:55 AM
7
07
55
AM
PDT
vjtorely, Vegetarian since 1979...Joseph
July 26, 2009
July
07
Jul
26
26
2009
07:53 AM
7
07
53
AM
PDT
herb You wrote (#41):
I don’t mean to go all PETA on you, but what are your feelings on the kosher slaughter of cattle?
Thanks for your question. Actually, I haven't eaten meat since 1987. I stopped eating fish and seafood as well, but took up eating them again a couple of years ago, for health-related reasons. As regards the kosher slaughter of cattle, I suppose it was the most humane way of slaughtering cattle in an age when a totally vegetarian diet would have led to nutritional deficiencies for many people (they didn't know about amino acids, trace minerals and vitamin B12 back then). In this day and age, I prefer to avoid inflicting any kind of suffering on mammals and birds, as I can enjoy a healthy diet without killing these creatures. That's my own choice; I don't wish to impose my ideas on anyone. Lock You made a very good point (#40) about the value of women in the Bible. On a personal level, I have learned a lot about the Bible's attitude to women from Glenn Miller's Christian Think Tank . Seversky (#43) Thank you for your post. Now I see what you were getting at when you wrote about animal souls. As you correctly pointed out, Christians have traditionally taught that only humans have immortal souls. In recent times, a few Christian apologists, such as C. S. Lewis, have tentatively proposed that some animals may be granted a kind of afterlife. However, even these writers do not claim that such an afterlife would include the Beatific Vision of God (i.e. Heaven). That is something of which only humans are held to be capable, because they are capable of knowing God (in a limited fashion), whereas other animals, lacking reason, are not able to speculate about realities which lie beyond the empirical realm of the senses. God has not revealed to us how He rights the undeserved suffering inflicted on dumb animals, but as Lewis pointed out, there are so many "unknowns" on this issue that it cannot be invoked as a valid argument against the goodness of God.vjtorley
July 26, 2009
July
07
Jul
26
26
2009
07:34 AM
7
07
34
AM
PDT
vjtorley @ 38 & 39
Is this proof enough for you?
First, let me say that I appreciate the effort that went into such a detailed response. I am happy to concede that your knowledge of Rabbinic scholarship is far more extensive than mine and I am not surprised that there is such firm opposition to unnecessary cruelty to animals in that tradition. That would be consistent with the belief expressed in my final paragraph. That said, we both know that Biblical texts are capable of different interpretations. The passage I quoted can be interpreted in the way I suggested - and is so understood by some - and is arguably reinforced by Genesis 9:3:
Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things
Is it likely that divine permission would have been given to use as meat any creature that was equivalent to man in respect of a soul?
By the way, whoever said that “animals have no souls”? Where did you get that idea? The Judeo-Christian teaching has always been that they lack rational souls, not that they lack souls. Anything that is alive has some sort of soul, as any Aristotelian will tell you. I hope this prompts you to reexamine your opinions.
It is a long time ago now but, if I remember correctly, the Christian tradition in which I was raised held that animals do not have immortal souls like those believed to be a part of human beings. This discussion of the question comes closest to my understanding especially as summarized in the final paragraph:
But do animals have souls? Animals may be said to have souls—if the word “soul” is used as the Bible employs it in discussing members of the animal kingdom (i.e., to describe only the physical life force found within all living creatures). But if the word “soul” is used to refer to an immortal soul that one day will inhabit heaven or hell, then no, animals may not be said to possess a soul. This is the only conclusion that can be drawn, respecting the instruction on the subject found within the Word of God.
Seversky
July 25, 2009
July
07
Jul
25
25
2009
05:06 PM
5
05
06
PM
PDT
Please ignore the superfluous blockquote in my post above.herb
July 25, 2009
July
07
Jul
25
25
2009
10:06 AM
10
10
06
AM
PDT
vjtorley,
I don't mean to go all PETA on you, but what are your feelings on the kosher slaughter of cattle?
herb
July 25, 2009
July
07
Jul
25
25
2009
10:05 AM
10
10
05
AM
PDT
-vjtorley Your responses in this thread are very nicely done. I think that this is one of the many misunderstandings concerning a Biblical worldview. The treatment and value of women is most surely another good example. When seen in context, nothing gives women the value that the Bible does. In both cases, when we patiently use our full faculties to read the verses in context, it it becomes clear rather easily. What is also interesting, is that this problem of misapplying scripture is not new. Jesus continually corrected the culture by interpreting scripture in context. One of the things that offended the Pharisees was that He acted as though it should be obvious. And it is... but we are often very short sided creatures. The myths regarding the frame of reference by which to read these works are numerous. It is that kind of pop culture and 'looking only on the surface of things' that all of us must gaurd against. It is so natural to take the easy road, but the big picture is what we all really strive for. It is that spirit of truth we all must bend our knee to if we are to find the strength to endure the temptation to take shortcuts. For the record, I am not preaching or speaking from a position of righteousness. I only know how hard this is, and how easily we fall for lame simplistic argumentation, because I know how shallow a man I can be.Lock
July 25, 2009
July
07
Jul
25
25
2009
09:38 AM
9
09
38
AM
PDT
Seversky (#34) (Continued) Next, I’d like to quote from The JPS Guide to Jewish Traditions by Ronald Eisenberg, Jewish Publication Society, 2004. In the chapter, Cruelty to Animals (p. 705), Eisenberg writes:
The prohibition against cruelty to animals (tza'ar ba'alei hayim, lit. "pain of living things") is a fundamental Jewish value, based on the concept that human beings are responsible for all God's creatures. Not only is cruelty to animals forbidden, it is a positive commandment for human beings to show compassion and mercy towards them. The eating of meat was permitted only after the Flood (Gen. 9:3) and then only in moderation and tightly regulated by the dietary laws. One of the seven Noahide laws, which apply to all humanity, is the prohibition against eating the flesh of a living animal, or blood drawn from it (Sanh. 56a-b). Although the Rabbis agreed that human needs took priority, they opposed the cruelty inherent in the hunting of animals, even for a living. Indeed, the Talmud prohibits associating with hunters, based on the verse in Psalms (1:1), "Happy is the man who does not stand in the way of sinners, nor sit in the seat of the scornful" (Av. Zar. 18b). In the 18th century, Rabbi Ezekiel Landau noted that the only Biblical hunters were fierce characters such as Nimrod and Esau, and that this activity is not appropriate for the children of the Patriarchs. He said that when animals are killed merely for the pleasure of hunting, it is cruelty. This antipathy toward cruelty to animals is strikingly illustrated in the rabbinic prohibition against reciting the festive benediction Shehecheyanu (see p. 479) before the act of ritual slaughter or before putting on new shoes, because human enjoyment is achieved only through the death of the animal. As explicitly stated in the Ten Commandments, animals as well as human beings must be allowed to rest on the Sabbath (Exod. 20:10; Deut. 5:14). For Rashi, this meant that animals must be free to wander about, take in their surroundings, and enjoy the beauty of nature. Similarly, animals are to be provided for during the sabbatical year, when the fields lie fallow, and whatever grows in them is to be enjoyed by "the poor of your people and the beast of the field" (Lev. 25:6-7). The angel rebuked Balaam for smiting his donkey (Num. 22:32; see p. 716), which Maimonides considered as the proof text which forbids causing pain to any animal, and God himself admonished Jonah (4:11), "And should I not care about Nineveh, that great city of more than 120,000 persons ... and many beasts as well!" In the book of Psalms, God is praised as the one whose "mercy is upon all His works" (Ps. 145:9), "feeding every creature to its heart's content" (Ps. 145:16), and who "gives the beasts their food" (Ps. 147:9). Based on the verse, "I will also provide grass in the fields for your cattle, and [then] you shall eat and be satisfied" (Deut. 11:15), the Rabbis decided that a person is forbidden to eat before feeding his animal because the animal is mentioned first (Ber. 40a). (Emphases mine – VJT.)
Is this proof enough for you? By the way, whoever said that “animals have no souls”? Where did you get that idea? The Judeo-Christian teaching has always been that they lack rational souls, not that they lack souls. Anything that is alive has some sort of soul, as any Aristotelian will tell you. I hope this prompts you to reexamine your opinions.vjtorley
July 25, 2009
July
07
Jul
25
25
2009
08:08 AM
8
08
08
AM
PDT
Seversky (#34) You wrote:
Nor should we forget Genesis 1:26:
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Couple this with the doctrine that animals have no souls and, on the face of it, this reads like a license to do with nature whatever we choose, which would include being allowed to inflict pain on other animals with impunity.
Before you go citing Biblical verses as proof of the cruelty of the Judeo-Christian Scriptures, you might want to examine how they were understood and interpreted by the people to whom they were originally given: the Jews. I'd like to quote from The complete idiot’s guide to the Talmud by Rabbi Aaron Perry, 2004. (Lest anyone laugh at the title, I should add that this book was recommended by no less an authority than Rabbi Noson Weisz, senior lecturer, Yeshiva Aish Ha Torah, Jerusalem.) In Chapter 19: Talmudic Behavior and Conduct, p. 223, Rabbi Parry writes:
God gave Adam, the first man, vegetation for food. It is written, “And God said, Behold I have given you every herb bearing seed which is upon the face of the whole Earth, and every tree upon which there is fruit of a tree bearing seed, to you these shall be for food” (Genesis 1:29). Though Adam was not forbidden to use meat as a food source, he was not allowed to kill animals. If the animal had died naturally, it could be eaten as food.
But there's more. As it turns out, the entire Rabbinic tradition is vehemently opposed to any kind of cruelty to animals, and the Rabbis used Scripture itself to justify their position. I'll cite the evidence in my next post.vjtorley
July 25, 2009
July
07
Jul
25
25
2009
08:06 AM
8
08
06
AM
PDT
Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.Lock
July 25, 2009
July
07
Jul
25
25
2009
07:05 AM
7
07
05
AM
PDT
Lock @ 34 Indeed. And further in Revelations 11:18 states: And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.IRQ Conflict
July 24, 2009
July
07
Jul
24
24
2009
09:53 PM
9
09
53
PM
PDT
Seversky, that passage is one that I was going to bring up to the-napkin. I do not interpret that passage in the way taken by poular culture at all. In that passage, God told us the purpose He created us for; To take dominion over nature. Far from a license to harm, it is actually telling us part of the meaning of life before the fall. It appears we would all agree that man has done a horrible job with his dominion. Far from having dominion over nature, nature controls him. He is out of control, not in control. If he were not, we would have nothing to moralize about. Yet, somehow we turn that passage around to mean a license to do what we please? How in the name of reason would that be consistent with the rest of the Bible?Lock
July 24, 2009
July
07
Jul
24
24
2009
08:00 PM
8
08
00
PM
PDT
Clive Hayden @ 29
On the theory of evolution, there is no reason to refrain from hurting animals, and by extension, men.
Neither, based on the theory of evolution, is there any reason to hurt animals or human beings. To argue either case would be to commit the naturalistic fallacy. The theory itself makes no moral prescriptions either way. Nor should we forget Genesis 1:26:
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Couple this with the doctrine that animals have no souls and, on the face of it, this reads like a license to do with nature whatever we choose, which would include being allowed to inflict pain on other animals with impunity. Let me say at once that I believe most if not all Christians would be horrified at the prospect of casual and thoughtless cruelty to other living creatures but the fact remains that the Biblical verse and the doctrine do bear that interpretation just as some passages from Darwin's works could be interpreted as racist.
Seversky
July 24, 2009
July
07
Jul
24
24
2009
04:31 PM
4
04
31
PM
PDT
Denyse @ 25:
Surely no one doubts that higher animals feel pain, in the sense that humans do.
One of your brightest and most thoughtful ID sympathetic commenters disagrees. Or at least disagreed: VJtorley @ https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/should-the-expelled-movie-have-addressed-the-holocaust/#comment-292357
Insects and fish are certainly capable of learning. Indeed, honeybees (which appear to be capable of abstracting simple rules) and fish (which have excellent memories and can recognize up to 100 individuals) are quite smart. Nevertheless, the available scientific evidence indicates pretty strongly that these creatures do not feel pain.
BTW, there VJ inks to his dissertation, which I will be very interested to read.Diffaxial
July 24, 2009
July
07
Jul
24
24
2009
04:04 PM
4
04
04
PM
PDT
O'Leary, Do animals have an afterlife? Do they have "souls" whatever you understand souls to mean? Clive,
On the theory of evolution, there is no reason to refrain from hurting animals, and by extension, men.
Why's that then? The odd thing is, you see, that a large % of people believe in evolution. And they happily refrain from hurting both men and animals. Which would seem at odds with your statement.Mr Charrington
July 24, 2009
July
07
Jul
24
24
2009
03:47 PM
3
03
47
PM
PDT
The Napkin writes at 28, - 0 - O’Leary, Are you jerkin’ us around? –Surely no one doubts that higher animals feel pain, in the sense that humans do. The higher animals not only testify that they do by their behaviour, BUT their mental organization is such that we can see their feelings as analogous to our own. –Quote from post….duh There is, of course, a large body of facts which indicate that whole classes of animals, though very highly organized, suffer nothing which can be called pain, as in the insects; and similar facts show us that even the highest warm-blooded animals suffer very much less than we do. (P. 185) C’mon now. You’re posting one thing and saying another. - 0 - No, Napkin, read the terminology closely. Wallace calls insects "highly organized", and rightly so, especially if you count the social organization of the social insects. However, it is far from clear that insects - with their highly distributed systems - feel pain in the sense that, say, primates can. With respect to the higher warm-blooded animals (I take it that Wallace here means primates, dogs, cats. horses, etc.), from reading the relevant passages in his book, The World of Life, I gather that he meant somethng like the point I had made earlier at 25: Many sources of pain to humans cannot be apprehended by an animal, even a "higher, warm-blooded" one. In my sad experience, the sick animal just wants to feel better. He does not know that he is dying, let alone worry what might come afterward, or what will become of those he must leave. His sufferings are limited and local, and can be adequately addressed by sedatives, painkillers, and eventually an overdose. Life is not like that for humans, because we cannot escape what we know. - 0 -O'Leary
July 24, 2009
July
07
Jul
24
24
2009
03:37 PM
3
03
37
PM
PDT
allanius,
Is there really as much suffering as Darwin claims? Count us dubious. Of course there is pain in the animal kingdom. Pain is necessary to protect life. But pain is not “suffering,” which requires consciousness. This is why Lewis described the notion of animal suffering as a pathetic fallacy.
Lewis, meaning C S Lewis? Does this square with the link that Clive just gave?herb
July 24, 2009
July
07
Jul
24
24
2009
02:54 PM
2
02
54
PM
PDT
the_napkin, ------"Animals feel pain and can suffer. Just like humans can. They do so because the sensation of pain has allowed for the survival of the species." You might be interested in this essay about vivisection: http://www.irishantivivisection.org/cslewis.html On the theory of evolution, there is no reason to refrain from hurting animals, and by extension, men.Clive Hayden
July 24, 2009
July
07
Jul
24
24
2009
02:38 PM
2
02
38
PM
PDT
O'Leary, Are you jerkin' us around? --Surely no one doubts that higher animals feel pain, in the sense that humans do. The higher animals not only testify that they do by their behaviour, BUT their mental organization is such that we can see their feelings as analogous to our own. --Quote from post....duh There is, of course, a large body of facts which indicate that whole classes of animals, though very highly organized, suffer nothing which can be called pain, as in the insects; and similar facts show us that even the highest warm-blooded animals suffer very much less than we do. (P. 185) C'mon now. You're posting one thing and saying another. Borne, --Thus the fact of its existence is inexplicable without purpose for without a nerve-damage-bio-reaction system nothing would survive. So when did this system ‘evolve’? It had to be there from the start. So pain itself is yet another evidence of intelligent design. It exists for very important reasons. How? Why couldn't the sensation of pain evolve? It's not irreducibly complex. Single cells have a way in which to move away from things that can damage them, as do shrimp, elephants and puppies. Just like us humans. You cannot say with any scientific backing that pain is irreducibly complex. --Nature; blind, unguided, purposeless… ‘couldn’t care less’ about either pain or no pain as it were. Are you lost as to what evolution entails? Animals who feel pain are much more likely to fight or flee. This, in turn, means they are much more likely to survive and procreate. Bing, bang, boom, nature HAS a purpose for pain, it's called survival. --So arguing against ID from the existence of pain is not only foolish - seeing as without out it nothing would survive. It’s no better than arguing from death or any other aspect of life that entails ’suffering’. You've really lost me on this one. No clue how you made that jump in logic. Here's what I'm saying and it's pretty simple: Pain = more able to survive = procreation = evolution There is not an iota of ID in pain. It is about as concrete as you can get in biological terms to support the theory of evolution.the_napkin
July 24, 2009
July
07
Jul
24
24
2009
11:08 AM
11
11
08
AM
PDT
Darwin’s obsession with suffering is a sign of the Unhappy Consciousness, as Hegel called it. These are sensitive souls who transfer their own unhappiness onto nature or “being,” causing them to want to negate it. Others in the category would include Plato, Calvin, and Nietzsche. Unfortunately the “being” that Darwin wanted to negate was God himself. Darwin is the one forcing this discussion, not Denyse. His glib dismissal of God is based on the claim that there is too much suffering in the world for it to have been the product of a benevolent creator. Is there really as much suffering as Darwin claims? Count us dubious. Of course there is pain in the animal kingdom. Pain is necessary to protect life. But pain is not “suffering,” which requires consciousness. This is why Lewis described the notion of animal suffering as a pathetic fallacy. Nor are we convinced that unreflecting creatures spend as much of their existence in pain as Darwin and his supporters would have us believe. Just how much of our own lives is spent in pain? A miniscule proportion. And what there is is generally magnified out of all proportion by consciousness, which animals do not share. Normally we wouldn’t mind Darwin and his fellow sensitive plants wallowing in their exquisite refinement and superiority to nature. Every age has its Jacques. But it seems a bit outlandish to negate God in order to satisfy one’s moral vanity.allanius
July 24, 2009
July
07
Jul
24
24
2009
11:01 AM
11
11
01
AM
PDT
Pain 1. It has a clear purpose. It's not there by accident. It is an alarm system to the organism that something is wrong. If there were no pain every living thing would die in very short time. Ex. If a simple flesh wound is not felt, and thus ignored. It becomes infected - still ignored... death is inevitable. Leprosy has demonstrated rather vividly the results of not have a "pain" system at work. 2. Nature; blind, unguided, purposeless... 'couldn't care less' about either pain or no pain as it were. The very concept of a physical damage alarm system is non existent without a foreseeing mind. Thus the fact of its existence is inexplicable without purpose for without a nerve-damage-bio-reaction system nothing would survive. So when did this system 'evolve'? It had to be there from the start. So pain itself is yet another evidence of intelligent design. It exists for very important reasons. 3. Animals and insects? Of course animals feel pain. I think most insects do as well in some form. But death will have us all in the end. So arguing against ID from the existence of pain is not only foolish - seeing as without out it nothing would survive. It's no better than arguing from death or any other aspect of life that entails 'suffering'. I suggest anyone concerned with the ages old argument against God from suffering and evil read, as Lock mentioned above, CS Lewis' "The Problem of Pain". It is a very deep and insightful work on the whole subject. 4. Conscience is the nervous system of the soul. A wounded conscience is the pain of the soul - we call it "feeling guilt". The more one offends conscience the deeper and more infect the wound becomes and eventually causes numbness - indifference. Of course, evil men are always either complaining of, denying the existence of or trying to explain away that too. 5. The best explanation for 'suffering' and death still appears to be that of scripture:
Wherefore, as by one man evil entered into the world, and death by evil; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have done evil
Life in a fallen world entails pain and suffering for all - including God.Borne
July 24, 2009
July
07
Jul
24
24
2009
07:17 AM
7
07
17
AM
PDT
Briefly, Mere reaction does not signify pain in the sense we humans know it, which is why I doubt that insects feel pain. (That doesn't justify cruelty, which can be opposed on other adequate grounds.) Surely no one doubts that higher animals feel pain, in the sense that humans do. The higher animals not only testify that they do by their behaviour, BUT their mental organization is such that we can see their feelings as analogous to our own. But, all that said, there are many sources of pain that old Rover simply cannot experience because - as I pointed out above - he cannot know certain things that would give him much more pain if he did know them. (= that he has an inoperable cancer and is not long for this world) In the same way, he has probably long forgotten his mother, so he will not learn that she died years ago and will not mourn her. He most likely never knew his sire and will not mourn him, nor his siblings either. Nor will he wonder about death or ask what might lie beyond it. I expect that the greater the mental capacity, the greater the capacity to apprehend sources of pain. Human life is full of pain and sorrow that animal life has been spared.O'Leary
July 24, 2009
July
07
Jul
24
24
2009
06:23 AM
6
06
23
AM
PDT
Except that it contradicts a big chunk of theology too.ScottAndrews
July 24, 2009
July
07
Jul
24
24
2009
06:10 AM
6
06
10
AM
PDT
Asserting that animals don't feel pain supports theology, not ID.ScottAndrews
July 24, 2009
July
07
Jul
24
24
2009
06:09 AM
6
06
09
AM
PDT
There is, of course, a large body of facts which indicate that whole classes of animals, though very highly organized, suffer nothing which can be called pain, as in the insects; and similar facts show us that even the highest warm-blooded animals suffer very much less than we do. Anyone know what this large body of facts is?Mark Frank
July 24, 2009
July
07
Jul
24
24
2009
05:01 AM
5
05
01
AM
PDT
1 2

Leave a Reply