Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

An Apology to Dr. Moran

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In a recent post I described a scenario and asked a question to Dr. Moran as follows:

In a comment to a prior post Larry Moran writes:

Craig Venter and his colleagues constructed a synthetic genome and inserted it into a cell. The DNA determined the structure and properties of the organism that grew and after many subsequent generations we have a new species that behaves exactly like it was supposed to based on the genes that the scientists built.

Now Dr. Moran, suppose that new species escaped the lab and was captured by a researcher who had no idea about Venter’s work.  Suppose further that researcher concluded that the genome of the creature had been intelligently designed.  Would that researcher’s design inference be the true and best explanation of the creature’s genome’s provenance?

Dr. Moran answered the question:

The answer is “yes,” the researcher correctly observed that the genome of the synthetic organism is nothing like the genomes of real species. It lacks pseudogenes, transposons, and any trace of junk DNA and the sequence of its genes and regulatory regions is far too perfect to have evolved naturally.

And I responded to his answer:

Dr, Moran, you astonish me. In a good way.  Thank you for admitting that design leaves indicia that are empirically detectable in biological organisms, and that a design inference is perfectly valid if those indicia are present.

I congratulate Dr. Moran for following the data where it leads and making the most reasonable inferences from that data.

Furthermore, after reviewing my response, I realized I owe Dr. Moran an apology.   I extend my apologies to him for assuming he would he would not follow the data and make a reasonable inference.  My assumption was, I realize, based on prejudice (in the sense of “pre” and “judging”) and that was especially inexcusable coming, as it did, just days after I accused Dr. Moran of being prejudiced against me.

Comments
"A diamond is not a chance arrangement of carbon. Does that mean that it is designed." A diamond is necessary, When it comes to how life originated then there is nothing in chemistry that makes life necessary, that leaves chance or design. If you believe life originated spontaneously in nature and then evolved by an accumulation of errors eventually leading to human brains, then you have faith in dumb chance. "My knowledge of evolutio, as limited as it is, is that there are certainly chance elements to it, but that it is not all chance" Your knowledge clearly is limited, when you do not understand your faith, then you shouldn't be here arguing for it.Jack Jones
November 14, 2015
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JJ: "The antonym of design is chance. If you believe no intelligence involved, that is dumb chance." A diamond is not a chance arrangement of carbon. Does that mean that it is designed. My knowledge of evolutio, as limited as it is, is that there are certainly chance elements to it, but that it is not all chance. You could fall back on your tornado in a junkyard analogy, but that only demonstrates that you know even less about evolution than I do.brian douglas
November 14, 2015
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@17 Actually "we" didn't reverse-engineer a genome. A modified genome of an existing bacteria was synthesized and inserted into another bacteria. So modifying something requires it to be engineered? Were all the rivers and lakes the Army Corp of Engineers modified designed? I'd say a major impediment to synthetic biology is that it isn't easily engineered. Shotgun approached and directed evolution are the norm.REC
November 14, 2015
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@13 "The opposite of design is not dumb chance." The antonym of design is chance. If you believe no intelligence involved, that is dumb chance.Jack Jones
November 14, 2015
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REC The very fact that we can reverse engineer a genome should give you a clue that the original was engineered.Andre
November 14, 2015
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Barry @ 15, I'd say again that you are confusing A design inference with ALL design inferences. All three statements could be valid against A certain design inference (which you haven't stated). They are obviously invalid against my inferences in 14. Again, I should emphasize I haven't made a design inference regarding nature. I've made 3 above regarding a piece of human made technology.REC
November 14, 2015
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REC @ 14: Suppose someone pushed back at you and said, “REC, your design inference is a scientific show stopper. You have committed the designer-of-the-gaps fallacy. All scientific claims must employ methodological naturalism, and you violate the principle of methodological naturalism when you make a design inference in biology. Besides all that, it all just a cop out unless you can tell me who designed the designer.” What would you say?Barry Arrington
November 14, 2015
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@10 I can't recall anyone in the history of this debate declaring that ALL design inferences are invalid. Regarding the bacterium with a synthetic genome: 1) It has watermarks (Creator's names, excerpts of literature, an html link) that match specific external sources. 2) It has assembly artifacts-repeated sequences at regular patterns. 3) It descends, in some ways, from no natural bacteria. Despite sequences being borrowed from nature, no progenitor could produce it in ordinary descent with modification. ID has failed to find pre-specifications, design artifacts, etc. I could be wrong, but I'd like to see a quote that design can NEVER be inferred. Barry also posits that inferring design in lab-created artificial life is tantamount to inferring design in nature, and oddly insinuates granting the above points admits any design inference. That is false.REC
November 14, 2015
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JJ: "Do you believe your brain was intelligently designed or do you believe it came about by dumb chance?" Why does it have to be one or the other? The opposite of design is not dumb chance.brian douglas
November 14, 2015
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@brian douglas Do you believe your brain was intelligently designed or do you believe it came about by dumb chance?Jack Jones
November 14, 2015
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[Insult to Dr. Moran deleted] Mr. Jones, desist. Jack Jones
November 14, 2015
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BD, Dr. Moran made a design inference in this particular case based on indicia of design that were bracketed by him. His brackets are his own. If other people want to make other design inferences based on other indicia of design present in organisms "found in nature," who am I to say they shouldn't.Barry Arrington
November 14, 2015
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" Perhaps I don’t understand what you are driving at." I just assumed, possibly erroneously, that you were attempting to draw an analogy between your scenario and the appropriateness of inferring design as the best explanation for biological structures found in nature. My point is simply that inferring design as the best explanation in your question to Dr. Morin is predicated on knowing and understanding the tools and procedures used by humans to modify genomes. We cannot necessarily extrapolate the strength of this inference to other biological structures because we have no understanding of the tools and procedures that were used. But if you were not attempting to draw this analogy, I apologize.brian douglas
November 14, 2015
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And The Aston Martin did not come about by a tornado in a junkyard.Jack Jones
November 14, 2015
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BD
Btw, how did you like Spectre?
Bond movies are, too me, much of a muchness. If you liked the first 22 installments (and I did for the most part), you will like this one. It has everything we have come to expect from the formula, exotic locations, fun gadgets, beautiful Bond girls, lots of shooting and explosions; comic villains; evil henchman (this time played to great effect by the green guy from Guardians of the Galaxy); martinis; Q; M; Mollypenny; witty repartee; and minions (lots and lots of minions) with guns, though they could not hit the side of a barn if they were in it. Tip to anyone who aspires to be an arch-villain: If you are going to supply guns to your minions, for goodness sake have them spend some time at the range. If you don't, we can expect more scenes like the one in Spectre where Bond is being chased by dozens of minions all shooting automatic weapons at him and missing, while he picks them off one by one with his one gun, while repeatedly exposing himself to automatic weapons fire.Barry Arrington
November 14, 2015
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Brian Douglas,
Fair enough. But what about my second comment? If your same question was asked before anyone knew about the tools and procedures that molecular biologists use to modify the genome, would a design inference still be the best explanation?
Look at the question again:
Would that researcher’s design inference be the true and best explanation of the creature’s genome’s provenance?
In the particular context of question, the "provenance" under consideration is based on the tools and procedures that molecular biologists use. It makes no sense to ask, essentially, "but what if that provenance were impossible, would he still come to the same conclusion?" Perhaps I don't understand what you are driving at.Barry Arrington
November 14, 2015
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"No. I assume that Dr. Moran did not think so either, else would have said so." Fair enough. But what about my second comment? If your same question was asked before anyone knew about the tools and procedures that molecular biologists use to modify the genome, would a design inference still be the best explanation? Btw, how did you like Spectre?brian douglas
November 14, 2015
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Fair Witness
So, Barry, are you agreeing with Professor Moran that we would have to see absolutely no trace of junk in the genome before we are justified in inferring design?
I never said that. I can't imagine why you should infer it from anything I did say. The important thing is that Dr. Moran identified what he believes to be indicia of design, and based on the presence of those indicia made a design inference. Barry Arrington
November 14, 2015
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Brian Douglas
But wasn’t your question itself a loaded question?
No. I assume that Dr. Moran did not think so either, else he would have said so.Barry Arrington
November 14, 2015
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So, Barry, are you agreeing with Professor Moran that we would have to see absolutely no trace of junk in the genome before we are justified in inferring design?Fair Witness
November 14, 2015
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But wasn't your question itself a loaded question? What if the same question were asked before we had the capability to modify the genome? Under that scenario, would we infer that it was designed? Or would we simply identify it as a new species? Under your scenario, the reason that we might infer that it was designed is that we understand the tools and procedures and the capabilities of humans to do it.brian douglas
November 14, 2015
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