Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

An Exchange With FG

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In response to my last post here, Faded Glory writes:  “But Barry, the way the design inference is formulated, it is not limited to a particular example like the one you present here. It is presented as a very general rule, as per your earlier post.”

This statement is simply false.  ID never asks “What is the source of all design?”  It asks, “Is this particular thing designed?”  And it answers this question by determining whether that particular thing exhibits complex specified information (or irreducible complexity, which is a subset of CSI).

Faded Glory writes:  “The moment someone uses the inference, in a non-controversial, way like your concrete example, anyone is warranted use exactly the same inference on any other example of CSI and IC one cares to investigate. Why not, after all?”

You are exactly correct.  Anyone is warranted to use exactly the same inference with respect to any other example of CSI or IC.  Why does this surprise you?  This is what we have been saying all along.  Indeed, this is the essence of the ID project.

Faded Glory writes:  “Don’t blame us for following the inference where it leads.”

 Actually, I would never blame anyone for following the ID inference where it leads.  I would blame someone for following the inference where it does not lead, i.e. to the infinite regress.  As even you agree, my example shows that the inference does not lead there.

Comments
fg, I must be missing the point. Could you perhaps reword why it is absurd or illogical for the first life on earth to have been designed by another intelligent life that came before it? There may be other objections, but it's not illogical at face value. It's only illogical or absurd if we eliminate the possibility of intelligent life before the first life we know of, on earth or elsewhere. How is that eliminated?ScottAndrews
August 7, 2011
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Scott, I don't see how your re-phrasing helps at all. Saying that there could be some kind of unknown life that created known first life doesn't answer my objection, because in that case we could apply Barry's reasoning to that unknown life and be back in the same conundrum. Also, of course, it means that the 'known first life' isn't really first lI would like to see clarification on. There really is a problem with the way Barry has formulated his argument. I think that at least he should clarify the limits of its applicability. If it doesn't apply to all design, what design then does and does it not apply to? fGfaded_Glory
August 7, 2011
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Barry, I take it that this means you don't want to show how your argument applies to the first life forms? Would you care to answer my second question then: why not? Also, does this mean that, in your view ID, is agnostic on the origin of first life? Thanks, fGfaded_Glory
August 7, 2011
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fg, Even the very first living biological organism to appear on this earth must have consisted of one or more irreducibly complex systems. All intelligent agents are biological organisms descended from the first living biological organism to appear on earth. Therefore all intelligent agents are self-created.Mung
August 7, 2011
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FG, I wrote "ID never asks 'What is the source of all design?'" If you can tell me which part of this sentence you do not understand, perhaps I can help you.Barry Arrington
August 7, 2011
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FG, it fllows immediately that therefore first life, the simplest of living things, is generated by something that is alive. Which, of course, is a logical absurdity. As before, this is misstated to make it seem absurd. I'd like to assume that it's not intentional. A more accurate statement (if a little redundant) would be it follows immediately that therefore first life, the simplest of known living things, within the obvious context of known life is generated by something that is alive. Your statement effectively excludes the unknown. Since the unknown is what we're looking for, that's a logical absurdity.ScottAndrews
August 7, 2011
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FG: Kindly see from here on, in context. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 7, 2011
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Let me repeat my response to yhis from the other thread: Barry, I disagree that it is false to state that the design inference as you presented it is a very general rule. Let me copy it here out again, straight from your OP in the other thread: ———- Question to be Investigated: What is the origin of complex specified information (CSI) and irreducibly complex (IC) mechanisms seen in even the simplest living things? Hypothesis: CSI and IC have never been directly observed to have arisen though chance or mechanical necessity or a combination of the two. Conversely, CSI and IC are routinely observed to have been produced by intelligent agents. Moreover, intelligent agents leave behind indicia of their acts that can be objectively discerned. Therefore, using abductive reasoning, the best explanation for CSI and IC is “act of intelligent agent.” The intelligent design project is, essentially, the scientific investigation of this hypothesis. —————- Right at the start you say that even the simplest living things contain CSI and IC. So why can’t we consider the first life forms, which presumably are the simplest living things, and apply your inference? Doing so one concludes from your argument that these simplest life forms were generated by something intelligent. Unless we agree that it is possible for non-living things to be intelligent (I am open to that suggestion, by the way), it fllows immediately that therefore first life, the simplest of living things, is generated by something that is alive. Which, of course, is a logical absurdity. Therefore, there is a problem somehere in the way you have formulated your argument. As a scientific hypothesis it fails miserably. That is all I am saying. I really don’t know how I can make it any clearer than this. fG ------ I think this is a perfectly clear and straightforward objection to the way you have formulated your argument. Let me ask you directly then: can you please apply your argument to the first life form, talk us through the steps and show how it does not inevitably lead to the logical contradiction that first life was created by something already alive? If you can do this I will retract my objection. Alternatively, if you don't want to apply the argument to the first life form please explain why not. Thanks, fGfaded_Glory
August 6, 2011
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Barry, are you a lawyer? This penchant for clarity, your cross-examining style, the attempts to undermine the credibility of the witness, shame on you.Mung
August 6, 2011
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