Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

An Instructive Discussion, Led by Alan Fox, at The Skeptical Zone

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Over at The Skeptical Zone, there has been an amusing discussion. It can be found under the column “The Reality of Intelligent Design!” by Alan Fox. I want to respond to this discussion, as I believe it is instructive concerning the state of mind over at TSZ.  I am sure that Alan will again find my comments here “a bit wordy,” but hopefully he will not be able to say that they are “grumpy.” 🙂

Let’s start with the column itself. Alan Fox is one of those (relatively few) Skeptical Zone writers whose tone is actually merely skeptical, as opposed to polemical. However, some of his comments here leave something to be desired.

Alan writes: “I’ve seen no genuine effort to convert the claim that ID has some scientific merit into reality.”

Really? Has Alan not read the peer-reviewed online journal BioComplexity, which publishes several articles per year, and has done so for several years now? Has Alan not read the latest book by Stephen Meyer, which has garnered praise from a number of scientists, including some not previously associated with ID? (Heck, even geneticist Darrel Falk, arch-foe of ID, has on BioLogos praised Meyer for his grasp of many aspects of the science he has written about, and has admitted that some of Meyer’s criticisms of current evolutionary theory are cogent.) Has Alan not read Jonathan Wells’s book on junk DNA, which documents the rise of the “junk DNA” view, and the increasing difficulty in maintaining that view, with reference to several hundred technical articles in the peer-reviewed literature? Is he not aware that ID proponents said, long before Wells’s book, the ENCODE results, etc., that “junk DNA” was a presumptuous inference and that over time more and more of the DNA would be found to have some function?

I’m not saying that Alan has to accept the conclusions of all these books and articles, but it is certainly unfair of him to say that there has been “no genuine effort” on the part of ID people to do scientific work within an ID paradigm. (I leave aside the point that “effort” is only part of what generates results, the other part being access to institutional resources. ID would have produced much more scientific work by now if it had more funding, but ID proponents have largely been denied funding, being virtually shut out of academic jobs, post-doctoral fellowships, etc. by a largely hostile, atheist/agnostic/secular humanist biological community. If Ernst Mayr, Gaylord Simpson, Gould, Dawkins, Coyne, etc. had had to finance their researches into evolutionary biology largely by collecting handouts from private non-scientist donors, I wonder how much research neo-Darwinism would have been able to conduct. But to discuss that subject properly would require many more columns.)

Alan makes some rather shaky sociological inferences about UD commenters. He has decided that there are not many young or female commenters. How does he know this? Most commenters here write under pseudonyms, and one cannot often reliably infer the age or sex of a writer where the contents of the posts don’t provide that information. It is likely, of course, that most UD commenters are male, because male commenters dominate the internet on creation/evolution/design issues generally; but I don’t know how Alan converts that from “likely” to “certain” in the case of UD. As for age, it seems to me, based on internal references and literary style, that the commenters on UD are pretty well spread across the spectrum from people in their 20s to people in perhaps their 60s or even 70s. But I don’t claim knowledge here, only loose inference, and I don’t know how Alan can claim more. (Anyhow, I’m not sure what age has to do with the quality of one’s argument, but if age is understood to constitute some sort of intellectual disqualification to talk about religion/science issues, one might add that many of the Skeptical Zone luminaries are not exactly spring chickens: Alan’s own biographical remarks indicate a man of retirement age, and Elizabeth Liddle, the founder of TSZ, is, I believe, now over 60, and its leading evolutionary biologist commentator is, I believe, in his 60s or even 70s. Others of the New Atheist and skeptical crowds admired by many at TSZ — Richard Dawkins, Jerry Coyne, Eugenie Scott, Michael Shermer — are getting “up there” as well. People who live in glass houses …)

Alan closes his column by asking: “Who’s left there [at UD] with anything interesting to say?” Well, it depends of course on what one means by “interesting.” Many of the items highlighted by News, concerning recent developments in the various natural sciences, are interesting. They are usually not covered or even mentioned on other sites (including BioLogos and The Skeptical Zone). I have also found the columns of Vincent Torley (trained philosopher) and Rob Sheldon (trained physicist and space scientist) quite informative and thoughtful.

In the discussion following the column, Alan adds this historical comment: “science does not really get going until the end of the seventeenth century, the start of “The Enlightenment” when the shackles of religious authority began to be shrugged off.” This is an instructive comment, not for its historical value but for the insight it provides into Alan’s notions of intellectual history. Where to begin? Well, we can grant that the end of the seventeenth century might be called the start of the Enlightenment (as a matter of convention, the term “Enlightenment” is usually used to refer to the period starting about 50 to 70 years later than that, but we needn’t get sticky), and we can grant that modern science got going in the seventeenth century (though the “end” of the century is inaccurate, as there were numerous triumphs quite early in the century, with Gilbert and Galileo and Kepler, and by the middle of the century, with contributions from Descartes and others, modern science was well underway). But what about “the shackles of religious authority” being “shrugged off”? A modern historian of science would blush to write such rhetorical prose. This view of the history of science was already being seriously questioned by scholars in the 1950s (though the word hadn’t got out to the popular press, which was still pushing the “warfare” view of science and theology), and over the past 40 years it has now become clear that the rise of modern science in the 17th century was a complicated phenomenon with many causes, among which religious belief was a significant one. This can be seen in the writings of Hooykaas, Jaki, Oakley, Osler and many others (many of whom, I might add, are not personally religious individuals). It is only popular historians that are still pushing the “warfare” notion about science having to burst the “shackles” of religion. (Indeed, some of Darwin’s early supporters including leading Anglican clergymen.)

But enough regarding Alan’s comments. Even more interesting is the challenge put forward by William J. Murray, which for the sake of brevity I will paraphrase as: “You guys keep saying that ID has no substance, cannot be taken seriously, is dead or moribund, etc. So why are you so obsessed with shooting it down? Aren’t there more important ideas to be skeptical about — including religious ideas that have led to murder and terrorism — which on your own account affect the world far more than ID does?” The responses to this are quite revealing.

Some of the commenters frankly admitted that attacking ID is a sort of blood sport for them, an internet recreation, an activity of culture-war gamesmanship. (In the words of Spock to McCoy: “As I always suspected.”) Others attempted to dignify their obsession with a pretense of social concern. For example, one commenter implicitly charged that ID supporters are trying to get ID taught in the schools, and that it is responsible to keep ID out of the schools, as it is to keep astrology out of the schools. But of course ID supporters aren’t trying to get ID into the schools; Discovery repudiated that goal long ago, even before the Dover Trial. The focus of ID supporters has been on getting substantive criticism of neo-Darwinian theory into the schools — the kind of criticism that is found even in peer-reviewed scientific literature written by religious unbelievers. The Dover Trial was a very rare exception, where one small-town school board contemplated actually teaching ID in a biology class. But even there, at the end of the day, the total ID content was a 4-paragraph statement read to the students, which mentioned criticisms of Darwinian evolution within modern science, mentioned ID as an alternative, and indicated the existence of a book in the school library for anyone interested in reading up on ID. Not a single class was taught on ID, and after the two-minute reading of the statement, the ninth-grade biology curriculum carried on as it always had, teaching Darwinian evolution as the scientific explanation of origins which could not and should not be doubted. That is the full extent of ID teaching so far in the public schools of the USA. Wow! What a dangerous threat to the scientific education of American students!

Glen Davidson, that paragon of the scientific attitude (readers might want to check out his old website — if it is still up — on the mystical connections between electricity and life, when measuring his status as a spokesperson for modern science), repeats the long-refuted charge that ID is creationism, even though he must be fully aware that many ID leaders, including Behe, Denton, and several people on UD (including Torley and, last I heard, O’Leary) are not creationists in the normal sense of that word, because they accept common descent and do not use the stories in Genesis against the results of modern science. Why he deliberately misleads readers on this point, I do not know.

Alan Fox’s column certainly started off a revealing discussion. It seems to remain true that, while a variety of subjects are discussed on TSZ — the most interesting of which frequently involve the academic philosopher Kantian Naturalist — the main raison d’etre of the site has been to attack ID. But since the consensus of almost all columnists on TSZ is that ID is dead or dying, with all its credibility draining away, what purpose has TSZ any longer? In countries which have abolished capital punishment, there is no longer any abolitionist movement, because the thing being opposed no longer exists. And no one attacks the views of Erich von Daniken about chariots of the gods any longer, because no one any longer takes that hypothesis seriously. So if ID is not worth taking seriously, why doesn’t TSZ dissolve itself — or at least find some new focus for its “skepticism”? (I would suggest the more extreme claims of the AGW lobby as a suitable object for a healthy, detached skepticism which cares only about the truth about climate change and carries no brief for left-wing, anti-Western global politics.)

Indeed, it seems that only Elizabeth Liddle, the founder of TSZ, is being logical here, if current TSZ writers are correct about the impending death of ID. She hasn’t posted columns or comments in months on her own web site — which would make sense if she now thinks that ID is so outdated and irrelevant that her opposition (which was formerly constant and fierce) is no longer necessary. Yet on the site she started, her allies and followers are carrying on the fight which seems to bore her. One wonders why.

Comments
RH, design theory does not at all address the category, supernatural causation. That is a projection to create a rhetorically and court case convenient strawman. As someone who has been around the issue for some time, if you cannot bring yourself to contemplate the actual categorisation: mechanical necessity and/or blind chance ["natural"] and intelligently directed configuration aka design ["ART-ificial] then, that begins to go to character. I suggest consider -- mech necessity leads to low contingency lawlike regularities that are summed up in laws. High contingency has two main causes, stochastically distributed chance and design. Under certain circumstances such as FSCO/I the default of these two -- chance -- becomes maximally implausible and design is inferred. Ponder the case of the text in this comment vs typical o/p of a random text generator if you cannot understand this. KFkairosfocus
February 19, 2015
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Timaeus: The first part of your response was to vilify me for my personal browsing habits. Thank you, but I don't need you to tell me what to do with my time. I didn't criticize your *browsing* habits. I don't care where you browse. I was talking about your *commenting* habits. You were justifying trying to change the topic of discussion because you found that topic boring. My point was that if you (and I don't mean just you, but anyone to whom this applies) find the discussion on one web page boring, it is good manners to move to another web page, but bad manners to try to change the subject to one that you find interesting. If you were in a class on, say, the linguistics of the Finno-Ugric tongues, and you raised a question about macroeconomics to the professor, and he asked you why you were asking about macroeconomics in his linguistics class, and you said it was because you found Finno-Ugric linguistics to be a narrow subject that was of interest only to a few people, and that it bored you, I think the professor would be personally offended. I was making a point about basic social interaction, i.e., good conversational manners, not telling you what to read or not to read. -- Timaeus. The 2nd part, I actually agree with. Yes, I have also been struck with how discussions almost immediately veer off topic, and usually end up in the broad subjects you listed. And, yes, I also agree that its annoying if you want to keep the discussion on topic. You may police the discussion to keep it on track, but I suspect that you wouldnt end up with any participants at all. Maybe free agents don't really want your heavy hand ? I don't have time to police the discussions, and therefore won't be jumping on individuals to say "Talk about this, not that." But what I can do is shut down the comments when the off-topic posts have left the on-topic posts so far behind that the original subject has faded from memory. I figure that once 30 or 40 posts in a row are showing up that have nothing to do with the the main topic, that it would not be unreasonable to close down that particular discussion. Since in most cases the ongoing posts are discussing perennial themes here, they can be carried on in many other places on this site, so that should pose no inconvenience to the commenters who want to keep on arguing with each other. So I expect to be closing down the comments here very soon. -- Timaeus Graham2
February 19, 2015
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Why do our opponents spew that ID doesn't have any entailments AFTER we present ID's entailments? "Hi, I'm an orphan. Meet my mom and dad."Joe
February 19, 2015
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rhampton:
So you agree that Intelligent Design theory says there are only two types of causation, natural and supernatural
No.
Intelligent causation is a subcategory that can belong to either one.
The debate is whether or not natural processes can produce intelligence.Joe
February 19, 2015
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V
SA I think if the processes are capable, then the existence of the designer is falsified for that observance. V I disagree, it may be unnecessary but it is not falsified, the GC could be created by an technology beyond our grasp
Ok, good point. I didn't express that correctly. Design wouldn't be totally falsified but a natural process would be a sufficient explanation for what was observed.
Actually I believe there are more proposed mechanisms, but the same evidence for natural design can be evidence for intelligent design. intelligent design can mimic natural design if it chooses.
As above - good point. ID is oriented towards observations that give the strongest indication of intelligence in contrast to other events that we assign to chance or natural causes. But ID cannot positively state that any thing is "not designed" - only that some things show strong evidence of design as compared with others.
Yes I know, but the problem is you have no entailments in ID as it stands now. There is no prediction of any mechanisms that might be tested for example.Natural causes being more limited have certain entailments.
I don't think ID has to test mechanisms to observe evidence of intelligence. It may be that the origin of a thing is not tied to the mechanism but rather to something immaterial like "an idea". So, we could wonder "what caused Michaelangelo's 'Creation of Adam' painting"? - and we could talk about mechanisms or paint, but it really emerged from an idea he had. That's what moved the whole process - more than the mechanisms.
Perhaps but to my thinking then the least manipulation the better,Set up initial conditions and let it run .that might just be me, I always prefer to be under managed than over managed
A lot of people would agree. At the same time, ID is not saying that there are interventions or manipulations of intelligence at all these points. Some functions, like repair systems, control events at the level of the organism, but that could be a means of displaying variety. One of the reasons nature is so beautiful is that it shows a lot of variety of detail -- and that might have been missing if everything was controlled from some initial, uniform conditions.Silver Asiatic
February 19, 2015
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Timeaus: I responded to that, and several people here, including skram and myself, have pretty well beaten that discussion to death. The actual detail of the science ID people have done — and how good that science is — is not the subject here. The subject was the existence or non-existence of the *effort*. I see, more like a participation trophy question. It is interesting though Alan's seemed to devolve in the same way, in fact it became a way to respond got those who could not respond there or here. Again thanks for the cordial atmospherevelikovskys
February 19, 2015
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SA Ok, you’re asking interesting questions and you seem to be open to various possibilities – I appreciate that. It is good exercise from the noggin, I like a good narrative even if I don't agree with the conclusions We have to weigh the evidence and determine what seems more reasonable. As far as we know, natural causes cannot produce some of what we find in nature or the universe. But we know that intelligent causes can produce such things. True. Man can manipulate natural mechanisms and forces to create temporary designs which nature is unable to. It does require a “direct intervention of an intelligent agent” – at some point in the process. True But we trace back causes. Software, for example, shows evidence of having been designed by intelligence True However, that doesn’t mean that the software we observe necessarily had a direct intervention of intelligence. It could have been produced by other software. Then technically the other software is a tool, just as a chisel cuts the wood to create a bowl. But eventually, if we trace back causes, intelligence is required as part of the origin of the software. For some designs intelligence is required, the pattern of the Rockies only requires geology The same is true of the Grand Canyon, actually. We know water, gravity, time and rock produce such a thing. But where did water, gravity, time and matter come from? That is certainly a question, but so is the small picture, but generally knowledge is solving small problems which reveal another level of explanation needed. Baby steps, So, you could trace back to more ultimate causes. Sure , equally the proximate cause may be sufficent and possible to gain knowledge about. I don't need to know the origin of the universe to know when to put gas in my car if that is my question. I don't even have to know what E stands for. I think if the processes are capable, then the existence of the designer is falsified for that observance. I disagree, it may be unnecessary but it is not falsified, the GC could be created by an technology beyond our grasp If mutations and selection can produce the effect, for example, then there’s not much evidence that intelligence was required. Actually I believe there are more proposed mechanisms, but the same evidence for natural design can be evidence for intelligent design. intelligent design can mimic natural design if it chooses. However, there’s the whole question of tracing back causes – back to origin of life, or back to origin of matter and natural laws. Yes I know, but the problem is you have no entailments in ID as it stands now. There is no prediction of any mechanisms that might be tested for example.Natural causes being more limited have certain entailments. It’s an interesting idea. The fact that organisms repair themselves, though, is evidence of intelligence at work in the origin of the process. Could be,but more persuasive evidence would be designs that did not have to, that is a goal in human design. Stability The book “Biotic Message” proposes that the design was intended to be discovered in various ways and places, but not fully exposed. The design is meant as a clue or pathway to understanding nature — the design was meant for discovery, to be revealed a little at a time, in various levels It’s a great point and I’ve seen some philosophers raise that. If it could be shown that the entire universe and all life on earth emerged from a single mathematical formula, for example – wouldn’t that be a more ideal design and better evidence of ID? Might depend on what that formula was, Maybe – but if the universe is meant to show not only mathematical precision, but also the drama and excitement of a great work of art (a story or painting) then a reduction to mathematic precision may not be the most ideal way to carry out the design. Perhaps but to my thinking then the least manipulation the better,Set up initial conditions and let it run .that might just be me, I always prefer to be under managed than over managedvelikovskys
February 19, 2015
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Joe, So you agree that Intelligent Design theory says there are only two types of causation, natural and supernatural. Intelligent causation is a subcategory that can belong to either one.rhampton7
February 19, 2015
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Timaeus: This thread has wandered way off the topic, like all the other threads, and like human conversation generally. Perhaps you could have chosen a subject that was a richer field of interest than the extremely limited one you chose (like, who cares ?), or you could have made a little more effort to seed the discussion. Graham2, if you weren't interested in the "extremely limited" subject that I chose, then why did you bother to comment under my column? There must be 20 or 30 new columns per week published here; surely there would be some others where the subject was more to your liking? If you were in a bar full of baseball fans who had met specifically to talk about baseball, would you try to change the subject to basketball? And if you walked into a church service and found the Christian religion uninteresting, would you call out to the minister to change his sermon topic to Hinduism instead? Wouldn't it make more sense, in such cases, for you to go to a bar where they are all talking about basketball, or go to a Hindu temple? No one ordered you to take an interest in the comments by Alan Fox or others at The Skeptical Zone. If you found my analysis of TSZ boring or irrelevant, the wisest use of your time would have been to go read another column. For you to try to change the topic, just because you are bored, is not particularly good manners. I'm not offended if you are not interested in my topic, but I am a bit irritated if you try to change the topic when you could just as easily join in on a different conversation, thus enjoying yourself more, while not thwarting my aims for the discussion. -- Timaeus. Yes, my tone is sarcastic as usual, but in this case its really just a comment on these types of discussions, which, like after-dinner converation, tends to just meander. Im not sure what the answer is, if there is one. I accept that there will be some wandering in various directions in these discussions. But the analogy with after-dinner conversation isn't a good one. After-dinner conversation is inherently loose, and therefore one expects a high degree of wandering from subject to subject; conversation *on a particular piece of writing* (in this case, mine, and that of the TSZ crew), one expects to be anchored, even if only loosely, to at least one idea found in the writing. But what happens so often on blog sites is that after about the first 24 hours, only about 10% of the comments bear any clear relation to what was originally talked about; everybody starts side-arguments about everything under the sun, and within about 72 hours all the comments sections look exactly alike -- you usually can't tell from the later comments what the original subject was, and often you could move a whole block of comments from one UD column to another, and no one would notice. On this site, there is a tendency for every comments section to turn into arguments for and against biological design, or for and against atheism, or for and against absolute moral standards, no matter what the original subject was. So the comments sections become useless *as commentary on the articles*. I'd like to see a change in that. I'd like to see people arguing about the design of the flagellum primarily under columns that are about the flagellum (or at least about detecting design in biological structures), and I'd like to see comments about the foundations of morality primarily under columns whose subject is morality. I realize that this cannot be enforced with 100% strictness, and that I myself have from time to time taken discussions off topic, so I don't want to be preachy about this; but I do think this site would be much better, and much more useful as a reference tool for people who want to find good discussions on specific topics, if people would restrain themselves from talking about *everything* they are interested in under *every* column, and try to keep focused on the subject at hand. And certainly for me as an author, to receive only 40 comments, but all directly or partly on the subject I wrote about, is far more useful than to receive 240 comments, with 40 relevant comments buried somewhere in the pile, so that I have dig through the whole pile to find them. I don't mean that the other 200 comments would be intrinsically worthless -- they might be quite good -- but only that they would be in the wrong place at the wrong time, and therefore not as effective or helpful to the author as they would be elsewhere. --Timaeus. Graham2
February 19, 2015
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rhampton7- ID is about INTELLIGENT causation- as in a purposeful arrangement of parts for some function.
(because it seems to me that intelligence itself is either natural or supernatural)
And there you have it.Joe
February 19, 2015
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vel:
I thought this was a demonstration of Alan’s point, that there is no new science behind ID.
New science? Alan's position doesn't have any science behind it. ID doesn't need new science, whatever that is. ID is OK with the accepted science that is behind it now.Joe
February 19, 2015
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I'd like to open this question up to everyone - perhaps it should be its own thread. According to ID theory, how many types of causation (natural, supernatural) are there? What are the properties of each type that differentiate it from the rest? (because it seems to me that intelligence itself is either natural or supernatural) A good question, rhampton. This is something that both ID proponents and their critics are often very unclear about. To answer it properly would take us into questions such as "What constitutes a causal explanation?" and "What sorts of causal explanations are appropriate to natural science?" And of course, this would lead us to look at, among other things, Aristotle, who had a broader and fuller notion of causal explanation than the one generally employed by modern scientists. But such a discussion requires its own column. It is a subject of interest to me, and I may write such a column. If I do, you would be welcome to raise your questions again to ID proponents in that place. -- Timaeus rhampton7
February 19, 2015
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What extra categories? Intelligent Design is open to all but purely materialistic processes and what emerges from them for explaining what we observe.Joe
February 19, 2015
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Timaeus: It’s evident that no one is going to offer any more discussion of the actual subject of my column. I thought this was a demonstration of Alan's point, that there is no new science behind ID. Alan's point -- presuming he meant exactly what he wrote -- was that ID proponents had made "no genuine effort" to produce scientific data supportive of ID. I responded to that, and several people here, including skram and myself, have pretty well beaten that discussion to death. The actual detail of the science ID people have done -- and how good that science is -- was not the subject here. The subject was the existence or non-existence of the *effort*. Actually, the question of effort was only *one* of the subjects I raised regarding the comments at TSZ -- but as no one seems interested in discussing the other subjects I raised, I think it is time I closed this discussion down. --Timaeus I don’t mind a bit of wandering into related subjects, but at this point the original subject has been left far behind. Thanks for your relaxed moderation.velikovskys
February 19, 2015
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Joe, That Behe said ID does not require the supernatural does not also mean he personally, or ID theory as it now exists, accepts other categories of causation besides natural and supernatural. Are these extra categories a part of ID theory or something else?rhampton7
February 19, 2015
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Mapou, It's like people saying that since I question the veracity of the claim of a 4.5x billion year old earth, I am a YEC. To those clowns "YEC" = anyone who can properly assess the evidence- ie anyone who disagrees with them. ;)Joe
February 19, 2015
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rhampton7:
And this is according to Intelligent Design theory or something else?
ID does not require the supernatural. Behe testified to that effect during the Kitzmiller witch hunt.Joe
February 19, 2015
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Zachriel:
here are a very few ID proponents who actually make scientific efforts, but their results are stillborn.
That is your uneducated opinion, anyway.
It’s a scientific hypothesis that leads to testable entailments that have been repeatedly confirmed.
Except for the facts: 1- No one knows what makes an organism what it is. Developmental biology (evo-devo) has not helped. 2- You don't have a mechanism capable of getting beyond populations of prokaryotes GIVEN starting populations of prokaryotes. Sagan only could account for mitochondria and chloroplasts. 3- It cannot be measured which is a huge issue in a venue built on measurements I could go on, by why bother...Joe
February 19, 2015
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Joe, And this is according to Intelligent Design theory or something else?rhampton7
February 19, 2015
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rhampton7:
Your response seemed to me to say that natural forces were not responsible. What other explanation is there besides the supernatural?
Here we go again- Natural processes only exist in nature and because of that cannot be responsible for its origin. Pre-natural, non-natural and artificial are other explanations.Joe
February 19, 2015
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Piotr:
Physical phenomena (including, importantly, various manifestations of the four fundamental fources) account, in the last analysis, for the existence of Eiffel, as well as his tower.
That is the propaganda, anyway.Joe
February 19, 2015
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Timaeus, Since you mentioned the Enlightenment, here is a question. Is Rousseau part of the Enlightenment or anti Enlightenment? I just read one book that puts him squarely in the anti Enlightenment camp and actually the main founder of this movement along with Kant. And another putting him as one of the major proponents of the Enlightenment. Obviously not related to the OP's theme but a curious question. Many terms are a bit elastic in meaning, and "Enlightenment" is one of them. Originally the term seems to have referred to the thought of the late 18th century, centered in France though with ripples elsewhere in Europe. However, it has sometimes been extended. For example, the "German Enlightenment" started slightly later and runs perhaps into the early 19th century. And some people, noting the continuity between 17th and 18th century thought, would count thinkers such as Spinoza as already Enlightenment thinkers. So there is dispute about the Enlightenment's boundaries in time and place. (One could say the same thing about Renaissance or Middle Ages.) Clearly Rousseau, in terms of his dates, is smack in the middle of the French Enlightenment and was influenced by it; on the other hand -- and I think your source is getting at this -- he rejects certain emphases of the Enlightenment, and his thought is -- depending on which aspect of it you look at -- either reactionary -- going back to the Greeks (especially on questions of morality) -- or more radical (in questions of political theory) -- looking beyond the 18th century ideal (which was in favor of the rule of the Enlightened monarch) to a radically egalitarian politics grounded in notions of universalizable rights. Kant, I would say, is more thoroughly modern in some ways than Rousseau, accepting the more radical political side of Rousseau's thought, but lacking Rousseau's hankering for the Greeks. In any case, clearly Kant was a contemporary of the leading German Enlightenment thinkers and read some of them, so it would be hard to exclude him as an Enlightenment thinker. In the end, though, these labels ultimately are only provisionally useful, for introducing a student to a period or for grouping authors and ideas in such a way as to enable us to find things in a library. In the end, we always have to get down to reading an individual author and assessing his work in its own terms, not merely as an example of the period the author allegedly belongs to. We need to study Kant and Rousseau because, regardless of how we classify them, they exercised an immense influence over all succeeding generations, and still do today. Allan Bloom, in his great book, The Closing of the American Mind, discusses the ongoing influence of Rousseau. As for Kant, I see in him the foundations of our "fact/value distinction" and ultimately of the compartmentalized, NOMA manner of thinking which undergirds the opinions of many TEs regarding theology and science. He's not one of my favorite guys. But then, what would expect from someone named --Timaeus ?jerry
February 19, 2015
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jerry: There is continuing sampling of all the strata and nearly everything is just examples of what has already been identified. Except when they're not. Novel fossil organisms are found fairly often. They all support the overall pattern expected of common descent. jerry: Not nearly enough to satisfy what must have been necessary for all the transitions required. Every transition doesn't have to be supported, nor is that what is expected by fossilization. However, there is more than enough evidence to draw a general picture of the history of diversification, as well as details of specific transitions. Zachriel: Many deny common descent, for instance. jerry: Universal common descent has never been shown. Case in point. jerry: It is a speculative conclusion from the data and is philosophically driven rather than empirically driven. No. It's a scientific hypothesis that leads to testable entailments that have been repeatedly confirmed. Timaeus: It’s evident that no one is going to offer any more discussion of the actual subject of my column. Timaeus: Alan writes: “I’ve seen no genuine effort to convert the claim that ID has some scientific merit into reality.” There are a very few ID proponents who actually make scientific efforts, but their results are stillborn.Zachriel
February 19, 2015
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I’ll give people a few more hours to say their last word, and then move to close off comments. Thanks to all those who have participated.
Amen! I came in at the end so I am fairly guilty and this is how an OP should be policed. Get rid of off target comments. But the recent comments are instructive. They are illogical arguments and are evidence of the viability of ID. If only their comments were logical could we take them seriously. But they aren't. Long live ID. They are unable to touch it.jerry
February 19, 2015
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Joe, In #193 I asked: I do not believe Dr. Behe (or any ID scientist) suggests that anything other than natural forces is responsible for the creation of our solar system. Do you disagree? Your response seemed to me to say that natural forces were not responsible. What other explanation is there besides the supernatural?rhampton7
February 19, 2015
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Am I correct that you are making the case the one or more ID scientists claim that natural forces alone could not have accounted for the creation of our solar system, thus supernatural forces must have been at work?
I have no clue as to what every person in the world says. Any one person could claim anything but ID itself does not preclude the natural origins of the solar system once the four basic forces are present at the Big Bang with the specific modifying parameters.jerry
February 19, 2015
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#225 Eric Anderson, The Eiffel Tower was designed by M. Gustave Eiffel, who -- to my knowledge -- was a human being, not a supernatural agent. Physical phenomena (including, importantly, various manifestations of the four fundamental fources) account, in the last analysis, for the existence of Eiffel, as well as his tower.Piotr
February 19, 2015
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To All: It's evident that no one is going to offer any more discussion of the actual subject of my column. I don't mind a bit of wandering into related subjects, but at this point the original subject has been left far behind. I'll give people a few more hours to say their last word, and then move to close off comments. Thanks to all those who have participated.Timaeus
February 19, 2015
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You would have to look at cases. For instance, paleontology, there is ample evidence of transitional processes in vertebrates. Each new fossil adds to the overall picture of this transitional process.
I believe that Joe has answered this. There will always be some new original fossils. I doubt ID denies this. New fossils suffer from the sampling problem. There is continuing sampling of all the strata and nearly everything is just examples of what has already been identified. Not nearly enough to satisfy what must have been necessary for all the transitions required. There must be a lot of hidden strata that will reveal all these transitions. There is always spurts of new stuff. Look at the Cambrian fossils discovered in China. Who knows what future digs might discover. I do not believe ID says that all the fossils have been discovered or even close to it. Just that what has been discovered does not support any natural process for the origin of species. An aside comment: if this is the best example for your argument, then the argument is weak and essentially its choice is validation of my point.
Many deny common descent, for instance.
Common descent is easily shown. The question is to what level is it applicable. We can do genealogy studies on our families to see who descended from whom. But how proven is common descent up the taxonomy hierarchy? The issue will be the origin of proteins. Universal common descent has never been shown. It is a speculative conclusion from the data and is philosophically driven rather than empirically driven.jerry
February 19, 2015
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Joe @226, Well said.Mapou
February 19, 2015
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