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Arguments from Incredulity

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We often hear that ID is an argument from incredulity. At this point I would tend to agree. That said, arguments from incredulity aren’t necessarily wrong but in fact are rather reliable and employed constantly and consistently by everyone every day.

Let’s take the example that Granville Sewell offered in his most recent post here. He described Schrodinger’s equation and showed us that it’s theoretically possible for a pitched baseball to stop and hover in mid-air. A commenter who appeared to have a reasonable understanding of Schrodinger’s equation at first protested then ended up agreeing that it’s possible but the odds against it are long and for all practical purposes incalculable. They went on to agree that the quantum uncertainty is tractible in the analysis of a single electron orbiting a single proton (a hydrogen atom) but that the math is intractible for a pitched baseball because such a large number of particles are involved.

So how do we “know” that a pitched baseball won’t stop and hover in mid-air? Incredulity is how. We can’t precisely calculate the odds against it due to the system being so complex but we know it is (literally) incredibly improbable. It’s the same thing with ID. Although we can’t calculate the odds precisely we do know enough to see that self-organization of atoms into structures as complex as the machinery found in living cells is incredibly improbable. We couple this with the sure knowledge that intelligent agency routinely produces organizations of matter that, absent the intelligent agent’s intervention, are incredibly unlikely.

Here’s a good example. In principle it is possible for two cows to mate and give birth to a chimpanzee. The reason we don’t ever expect to see such a thing is we know (now) that the genetic differences between a cow and a chimp are so complex and specified that the odds against it actually happening in a single generation are nearly impossible. We can’t calculate the odds precisely but we know it is incredibly improbable. The argument that two cows won’t mate and produce a chimpanzee is an argument from incredulity.

Likewise, is it possible that a bacteria can, through RM+NS, change into a baboon over a billion years and trillions of generations? Sure it’s possible but when you actually get down to assessing the sequence of changes that must have occurred, analyzing the probability in a finite number of years and a finite number of generations, using everything we know about the mutation and selection mechanism, it quickly becomes an incredible proposition. It grows more incredible every day as new knowledge of the underlying physical mechanics is discovered.

So the next time someone tells you that ID is an argument from incredulity you can simply respond by saying “Yeah, so what? Arguments from incredulity are common and quite reliable in all aspects of life from the physics of baseball to the physics of biology.”

Comments
DaveScot, 21, said "For the last time, find and read: “Edge of Evolution” by Michael Behe “Genetic Entropy” by John Sanford" I have, and more. We have a thread about quantum mechanics. That field is all about quantifying probabilities of natural events, albeit small events from which larger things are formed. Suggesting that probabilities be studied in that thread seems reasonable. This is a thread about incredulity - i.e. that which is not credible. My point is that ID posits a clear line about what is a credible argument or not, as Dr's Behe and Demski have suggested. Those arguments suggest that claiming credible and incredible are valid, if the claims are obvious. But I'm saying not everything is obvious. Especially, as DaveScot mentioned, since with parts of the problem the answer is "(s)ure it’s possible" even if "it quickly becomes an incredible proposition". I read that as suggesting to not throw out all of the bathwater, but maybe some parts will quantitatively be found to be a reasonable explanation. We have a thread about falsification. That again is a place that discussing various claims which are built around probabilities can be fruitful. Especially, since specific probabilistic claims are the backbone of ID. We may be disagreeing on what is obvious and what is not - i.e what is clearly filtered out as a good explanation. Even so, shouldn't it be a constant in these arguments that ID doesn't simply say improbable things can't have happened, as some seem to be posting? Instead, at least as I read it, it says that explanations that depend on probablities that are too small aren't valid explanations. Similarly, I read it as meaning that explanations that depend on probabilities that are large enough don't automatically get filtered, even if they aren't intuitively right. Or, maybe I just didn't understand the right parts of the material you've suggested.Q
January 10, 2008
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I wrote "As a software engineer, I can tell you that rumors about their power have been greatly exaggerated, even in limited domains." Correction: "As a software engineer, I've played with genetic algorithms and I can tell you that rumors about their power have been greatly exaggerated, even in limited domains. Sorry.Mapou
January 10, 2008
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Clarence wrote: "The question is, can the accumulated changes over billions of years lead to the complex organisms we see now and in the fossil record. So far, there has been nothing - not even in the mathematics - which suggests it couldn’t have happened." Well, maybe it could, but billions of years are not enough. More like billions of billions of years. The physical universe is not old enough, not even close. As a software engineer, I can tell you that rumors about their power have been greatly exaggerated, even in limited domains. One of their problems is that they cannot anticipate changes in their environment and more often than not, an entire population just perishes before it can adapt. The programmer ends up doing the anticipation by incorporating properties that presuppose future changes.Mapou
January 10, 2008
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Q You keep asking for more detailed probability analysis in regard to ID, I tell you where to find it, and then you ask again like I never answered. You're getting close to being booted. For the last time, find and read: "Edge of Evolution" by Michael Behe "Genetic Entropy" by John Sanford DaveScot
January 10, 2008
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Mapou, interesting observation. Though the relationship between reproduction rate and evolutionary improvements is not perfect -- trees reproduce much slower than we do, for instance, yet there is a profound truth in your observation. This gets back to Haldane's dilemma. Haldane suggested that creatures with slow reproduction rates, especially those producing few offspring, should evolve very slowly -- much more slowly than man has evolved from his common ancestor with the chimp. That said, this might invalidate the work on malaria that Behe reports in "The Edge of Evolution". If real evolutionary advancement requires a slow reproduction rate, maybe we should be focusing on letting evolution produce intelligent trees.bFast
January 10, 2008
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From my vantage point, one of the most incredible aspects of evolution is that the species that have evolved the most (in terms of intelligence and behavioral sophistication) are the species that reproduce the least and vice versa. I would expect it to be the other way around. In other words, according to the ToE, the most advanced species must have have gone through many more mutations and selections than the least advanced species. This is not observed. Am I wrong in my assumption?Mapou
January 10, 2008
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bFast in 16 said "That term “vaguely credible” is a relative term. I am in control of the threshold of my “vaguely credible” statement." I don't dispute your control over your statements, and apologize if it came across that way. I was suggesting an alternate usage, based upon the limits of the credibility of arguments, as suggested by ID. That is, Dr. Dembski's explanatory filter, a basic element of ID, suggests an absolute threshold as to whether an argument is credible or not, and not simply a relative metric for credibility.Q
January 10, 2008
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The way that most Darwinists reference "arguments from incredulity" seems to presume the only reason the person is making this argument is due to ignorance. ID proponents instead refer to the positive evidence and empirical thresholds derived from observations. So, Dave, the way you're using this term is a bit different from the way Darwinists commonly use it.Patrick
January 10, 2008
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Q:
bfast in 12, said “I have been patiently waiting for the neoDarwinists to make a vaguely credible case for RM+NS.” DaveScot kind of did, inthe sense of “vaguely credible” with the suggestion that RM+NS is possible, even if highly unlikely.
That term "vaguely credible" is a relative term. I am in control of the threshold of my "vaguely credible" statement. The fact that DaveScot would suggest that RM+NS is as vaguely credible as the possibility that a thrown ball would suddenly stop in mid air is, is a different category of "vaguely credible" than I am willing to accept to jump ship -- a whole lot different.bFast
January 10, 2008
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DaveScot, I like your presentation of this issue. It is yet another source that illustrates that we should be investigating the nitty-gritty details of the actual probabilities that are relevent to ID. Some things, as you indicate, are so probable as to just be obvious that they can occur. Other things have been shown to be so improbable that it is obvious that they cannot occur. Cows birthing a chimp is a pretty good example. But, the devil is in the details. As you mentioned in the OP, "Likewise, is it possible that a bacteria can, through RM+NS, change into a baboon over a billion years and trillions of generations? Sure it’s possible ..." Since the possibility that portions of the process are possible, the "incredulity" argument is quite weakened. Obviousness is lost. A more refined argument is needed to demonstrate that that which is possible actually becomes that which is not possible. In other words, incredulity has limits. (I wasn't meaning to quote mine with the ellipses. The remainder of the quote is also relevant) The remainder of the quote is " ... but when you actually get down to assessing the sequence of changes that must have occurred, analyzing the probability in a finite number of years and a finite number of generations, using everything we know about the mutation and selection mechanism, it quickly becomes an incredible proposition." Incredible, as in not credible, only if the integral of the discrete probabilities of those finite elements falls sufficiently below some level of "best argument." That is the basic argument of Demski and Behe - not that things have a low probability, but instead that they have a probability below some threshold. ------- bfast in 12, said "I have been patiently waiting for the neoDarwinists to make a vaguely credible case for RM+NS." DaveScot kind of did, inthe sense of "vaguely credible" with the suggestion that RM+NS is possible, even if highly unlikely.Q
January 10, 2008
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An example of an argument from incredulity perpetrated by darwinists is that of homologies not possibly originating from common design, despite the lack of evidence matching or linking all organisms to a common ancestor. Both inferences (common design and descent) are equally sensible and probable - absent the vantage point of seeing how exactly homologous structures actually emerged.
What's interesting about this argument, JP, is how it actually employed. Darwinists point to all these homologies as "overwhelming" evidence of common ancestry. But if it is suggested that common design might be just as good an explanation, the Darwinists resort to a reverse argument from incredulity along the lines of "are you really trying to suggest that God would have purposely designed [fill in the balnk]"? As a syllogism the argument goes something like: P1 - Organisms O-1 and O-2 share trait T P2 - No designer would have included trait T in 2 separate organisms Conclusion: Organisms O-1 and O-2 share a common ancestor. A pretty incredible argument don't you think?DonaldM
January 10, 2008
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I recommend to the readers, Hunter’s book, Science’s Blind Spot, for a nice treatment of this subject.
Yes, that is a good book. More pertinent to my point, though, is Hunter's (Cornelius G. Hunter for those who are interested) Darwin's God. In that book he argues that Darwin's conception has deeps roots in his concept of theology.DonaldM
January 10, 2008
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I have been patiently waiting for the neoDarwinists to make a vaguely credible case for RM+NS. The day they do, I may just need to switch camps. Alas, I am happily engaging in long-term construction projects in this camp.bFast
January 10, 2008
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An example of an argument from incredulity perpetrated by darwinists is that of homologies not possibly originating from common design, despite the lack of evidence matching or linking all organisms to a common ancestor. Both inferences (common design and descent) are equally sensible and probable - absent the vantage point of seeing how exactly homologous structures actually emerged.JPCollado
January 10, 2008
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"Even that famous book by Darwin is one long argument from incredulity. He found it simply impossible to accept or belive that God would so have designed the world that it would be so red in tooth and claw." I recommend to the readers, Hunter's book, Science's Blind Spot, for a nice treatment of this subject. I've been using the argument from incredulity for years. It's nothing more than good healthy skepticism of an unproven concept, as GilDodgen said, the "notion that a bacterium can turn into Mozart through an extrapolation of the mechanism that produces antibiotic resistance in bacteria." I accept antibiotic resistance because it is empirically verifiable by anyone regardless of creed or ideology. Extrapolating that to the idea that the same process can generate novel cell types, tissue types, organs and body plans is illogical, simply because we do not know what kind of variations, and in what sequence, would be required to get the results we see. Rates are not good enough. Quality matters, not just quantity. Genomics is barely scratching the surface. I'm sure some interesting surprises lay ahead.mike1962
January 10, 2008
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There is an inherent irony in the "ID is an argument from incredulity" critique. Even that famous book by Darwin is one long argument from incredulity. He found it simply impossible to accept or belive that God would so have designed the world that it would be so red in tooth and claw. Thus some other explanation was required in order to rescue God from being responsible for such a messy (as darwin saw it) creation. Or how about the late S.J Gould in "The Panda's Thumb" writing about what a "wise creator" would or would not do ( like he would have known). Is that not an argument from incredulity? Or how about the general gist of the arguments of so-called 'sub-optimal' design. Do they not come down to arguments of incredulity that God would NOT have designed such and such a biological system the way we actually find it? i.e. the wiring of the human eye, or the structure of a human back-bone or _______ fill in the blank. These are all arguments from incredulity. Apparently its okay to have incredulity about what a designer (or God) might or might not have done, but it is totally unacceptable to have any incredulity about what the blind, purposeless forces of matter and energy acting through chance and necessity can do all by itself! I find that incredible!DonaldM
January 10, 2008
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Further adding to the improbability is the fact that both cows are female.Charlie
January 10, 2008
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I like Phillip Johnson's comment about the claim that large improbabilities can be overcome by breaking them down into many smaller, manageable improbabilities (the central claim in support of the Darwinian macroevolutionary mechanism). Johnson observes that this claim amounts to suggesting that although it might be highly improbable that you will win the million-dollar lottery, this can be overcome by winning the thousand-dollar lottery a thousand times.GilDodgen
January 10, 2008
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Dave, Well stated, the real argument against evolution has always been very simple: no matter how long it took, no matter how gradual it may or may not have been, no matter how much it may look like natural causes, it's just plain stupid to believe it could have happened without design. Both my second law arguments, and Dembski's specified complexity arguments (which are very closely related, see the footnote of this article ) are just attempts to formalize in more polished and scientific language what is obvious to the layman. A lot of people, including a lot of scientists, can see this, they just don't know how to argue it without sounding uneducated. Someone, with apparently little scientific background, wrote in a 2005 American Spectator article (approximately) "the minute you begin to seriously entertain the idea that the human body could have come about without design, you have lost your mind." That is the real argument, in a nutshell.Granville Sewell
January 10, 2008
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I think the difference is that nobody claims that a bacteria changed into a baboon. Bacteria changed into bacteria with a mutation, which we all know happened and happens. The question is, can the accumulated changes over billions of years lead to the complex organisms we see now and in the fossil record. So far, there has been nothing - not even in the mathematics - which suggests it couldn't have happened.Clarence
January 10, 2008
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This is a very interesting post and comment. It would be great to see this line of argument formalized and published in some peer reviewed phil of sci journal or other.DonaldM
January 10, 2008
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Thank God someone finally addressed this. The mantra really does get old. Theory is too susceptible to subjectivity and wishful thinking. Common sense may save us yet.allanius
January 10, 2008
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I've always thought that arguments from incredulity were perfectly valid, when properly formulated in an appropriate situation. ID critics often challenge us that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence (referring to ID claims), but these same critics are perfectly satisfied to accept the notion that a bacterium can turn into Mozart through an extrapolation of the mechanism that produces antibiotic resistance in bacteria. I've harped in the past about the nature of mathematical combinatorics, most notably here. Although it may be impossible to provide exact numbers, it quickly becomes obvious that in biological systems the improbabilities become so large, so quickly, that the numbers must be expressed in orders of magnitude so huge that the exponents must be expressed in exponential form. In this case, arguments from incredulity seem perfectly reasonable and valid. If arguments from incredulity were never justified, then no claim, no matter how absurd, could ever be challenged as being unreasonable on its face.GilDodgen
January 10, 2008
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Good post Dave. I think you have a valid insight.Atom
January 10, 2008
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