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At Evolution News: Conservation of Information — The Idea

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William Dembski writes:

I am reviewing Jason Rosenhouse’s new book, The Failures of Mathematical Anti-Evolutionism (Cambridge University Press), serially. For the full series so far, go here.

Rosenhouse devotes a section of his book (sec. 6.10) to conservation of information, and prefaces it with a section on artificial life (sec. 6.9). These sections betray such ignorance and confusion that it’s best to clean the slate. I’ll therefore highlight some of the key problems with Rosenhouse’s exposition, but focus mainly on providing a brief history and summary of conservation of information, along with references to the literature, so that readers can determine for themselves who’s blowing smoke and who’s got the beef.

The importance of “conservation of information” can’t be overstated. The inability of nature to ratchet up information by any natural process in the universe is a hardwired property of the way the universe works.

Blowing Smoke

Rosenhouse’s incomprehension of conservation of information becomes evident in his run-up to it with artificial life. Anyone who has understood conservation of information recognizes that artificial life is a fool’s errand. 

The term artificial life has been around since the late 1980s, when Christopher Langton, working out of the Santa Fe Institute, promoted it and edited a conference proceedings on the topic. I was working in chaos theory at the time. I followed the Santa Fe Institute’s research in that area, and thus as a side benefit (if it may be called that) witnessed first-hand the initial wave of enthusiasm over artificial life. 

Artificial life is computer simulations that produce life-like virtual things, often via a form of digital evolution that mimics selection, variation, and heredity. The field has had its ups and downs over the years, initially generating a lot of enthusiasm, then losing it as people started to ask “What’s this got to do with actual biology?”, after which people forgot these nagging concerns, whereupon a new generation of researchers got excited about it, and so on to repeat the cycle. Rosenhouse, it seems, represents the latest wave of enthusiasm. As he writes: “[Artificial life experiments] are not so much simulations of evolution as they are instances of it. In observing such an experiment you are watching actual evolution take place, albeit in an environment in which the researchers control all the variables.” (p. 209) 

Smuggled Information

Conservation of information, as developed by my colleagues and me, arose in reaction to such artificial life simulations. We found, as we analyzed them (see here for several analyses that we did of specific artificial life programs such as Avida, which Rosenhouse lauds), that the information that researchers claimed to get out of these programs was never invented from scratch and never amounted to any genuine increase in information, but rather always reflected information that was inputted by the researcher, often without the researcher’s awareness. The information was therefore smuggled in rather than created by the algorithm.

Displacing Information

Darwinists are in the business of displacing information. Yet when they do, they typically act all innocent and pretend that they have fully accounted for all the information in question. Moreover, they gaslight anyone who suggests that biological evolution faces an information problem. Information follows precise accounting principles, so it cannot magically materialize in the way that Darwinists desire.

What my colleagues and I at the Evolutionary Informatics Lab found is that, apart from intelligent causation, attempts to explain information do nothing to alleviate, and may actually intensify, the problem of explaining the information’s origin. It’s like filling one hole by digging another, but where the newly dug hole is at least as deep and wide as the first one (often more so). The only exception is one pointed out by Douglas Robertson, writing for the Santa Fe Institute journal Complexity back in 1999: the creation of new information is an act of free will by intelligence. That’s consistent with intelligent design. But that’s a no-go for Darwinists.

Evolution News

Comments
Give me a prediction made by ID that we can test to see if it comes about
Been on the table for several years. Ignored by both sides of argument. Here is Ann Gauger responding though. Would destroy Darwinian Evolution which is logically impossible. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/do-nylon-eating-bacteria-show-that-new-functional-information-is-easy-to-evolve/#comment-631468 Aside: over the years I left several links to Jurgen Brosius’s work but those links were removed by the university in Germany he was associated with. As far as I know he is still alive but I cannot find links to any of his works but the articles were published and exist. He was introduced to UD by Allen MacNeill about 12-14 years ago as to how Evolution works.            Prediction: will be ignored. Aside2: Evolution is really the side show of ID. The fine tuning of universe and Earth are the heart of ID. Next is OOL. Evolution which generates 98% of comments should be down the list though it’s very interesting. Aside3: prediction - no anti ID person will provide any evidence against Idjerry
July 9, 2022
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@JVL : you didn't get it: you use intelligence (your mind) to deny intelligence(ID) . Self-defeateting. You are like a fish that make the case against water ignoring that himself is in the water.Lieutenant Commander Data
July 9, 2022
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LCD: When you say a prediction that we can test do you use intelligence or randomness ? Use whatever you like. Give me a prediction made by ID that we can test to see if it comes about.JVL
July 9, 2022
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None of which answers my question: can you propose a testable ID prediction that we can test?
Haha, yes it answers but your materialist religion forbid you to accept an answer that involves intelligence(code, genetic language ) . When you say a prediction that we can test do you use intelligence or randomness ? :) If you use intelligence/reason that you didn't create ...I have bad news for you.Lieutenant Commander Data
July 8, 2022
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Silver Asiatic: You can’t test Blind Watchmaker hypothesis. My question is: can you propose a testable ID based prediction that we can test? You dodged that question. Everyone has dodged that question. Why is that? It's easy to say yes or no is it not? Changing the subject is not an answer, it's an evasion.JVL
July 8, 2022
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You can't test Blind Watchmaker hypothesis.Silver Asiatic
July 8, 2022
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LCD: Code. Language. Symbol.Sign. All these are in the cell and are evidences for ID by default. We know for sure that only intelligence creates a functional code. Darwinists say that randomness can create life(code) but they fail to bring evidences. None of which answers my question: can you propose a testable ID prediction that we can test? If ID has power to affect development then you'd think you could predict how it would affect a particular situation. Can you give an example that we could then check?JVL
July 8, 2022
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Code. Language. Symbol.Sign. All these are in the cell and are evidences for ID by default. We know for sure that only intelligence creates a functional code. Darwinists say that randomness can create life(code) but they fail to bring evidences.Lieutenant Commander Data
July 8, 2022
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LCD: Why don’t you implement a cell in a mechanistic way. We wait. ? I note that you also don't seem to actually do any science although you claim to understand it better than those who actually do research and experiments. Can you propose an experiment or test which will check an ID prediction? Something that is not, actually, just trying to show that you don't think unguided processes are up to the job. Give me a testable, ID prediction and then we can test it.JVL
July 8, 2022
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Design itself does nothing; it has to be implemented which is a mechanistic process. Unless you believe in magic or miracles.
Why don't you implement a cell in a mechanistic way. We wait. :lol:Lieutenant Commander Data
July 8, 2022
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ET: AGAIN, it is you and yours which claim to have the mechanisms to account for what we observe. YOURS is the mechanistic position. Design itself does nothing; it has to be implemented which is a mechanistic process. Unless you believe in magic or miracles. The science of ID is in the detection and study of design in nature. We claim to have a methodology for making the determination between natural and artificial. Yes, that's what you claim. BUT, part of your methodology is establishing that natural processes cannot explain some phenomenon. First of all, that is trying to 'prove' a negative. Secondly, that is not testing ID; that's testing unguided evolutionary theory. Third, how can you possibly rule out natural processes UNLESS you assume that you are aware of all the available natural processes and can account for everything they can accomplish? Also, it's very, very clear that no actual study of design is happening. It's been a while since it was claimed that design had been detected but absolutely no one has published any work based on the designs that have been claimed to have been detected casting any light on the process of design implementation, the time when design was implemented, where design was implemented, who or what implemented design (and no, I don't mean a particular individual since I'm sure you will gleefully misinterpret that point again; I mean 'who' as in what group or type of individuals). This is why ID is accused of being a science stopper: it has not led to any further scientific work since it was claimed design had been detected. There are no publications, there is no ID research agenda, no one is applying for grants or funding. Nothing. True. That’s because it is still well above our comprehension, duh. But right now, I would say it all starts with the want to do it and the information to do it. What does that mean? It's just vague statements without any explanations which give insight. To us, science is a way of understanding the Intelligent Design and what nature does in it. To you, science is about discovering how nature did it. Science is about producing or observing repeatable, observer independent results which can be documented. I asked before what kind of test could be done for any kind of ID effect. Something that anyone with the right equipment could do, something which was clear and unambiguous, something which didn't depend on the person doing the test or observation. Remember what happened? No one came up with anything. And yet, we're told over an over and over again that ID is a 'better' explanation. But a) it doesn't actually explain or predict anything specific enough to be testable and b) it has failed to generate any kind of productive research. The only 'research' is geared towards arguing that natural processes are too improbable (note: not impossible but just unlikely) to have come up with some specific result. Aside from being a negative argument and not an actual test of ID's ability to create new structures or influence development it's really just research about unguided evolutionary processes not ID itself. IF ID is science then do some science. So far you're mostly just making claims and whining when people think you've haven't actually established your case. You, ET, don't actually do any ID research. Neither does Kairosfocus or Upright BiPed or Bornagain77 or Asuaber or Relatd or Mung or, even, Dr Dembski or Dr Behe. It's all just combing through actual unguided evolution research and claiming this or that result upholds your view. When are you going to propose an experiment testing a prediction of ID and carry it out?JVL
July 8, 2022
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JVL:
Of course, you can’t say how all those things happened.
True. That's because it is still well above our comprehension, duh. But right now, I would say it all starts with the want to do it and the information to do it. To us, science is a way of understanding the Intelligent Design and what nature does in it. To you, science is about discovering how nature did it. Even when there isn't any evidence that nature did. But it doesn't matter as you and yours force science to start with a conclusion. And that is what dogma does.ET
July 7, 2022
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Earth to JVL- AGAIN, it is you and yours which claim to have the mechanisms to account for what we observe. YOURS is the mechanistic position. Stop whining when we point out that we are still waiting, and your dog no longer hunts. Yours is the bottom-up approach. If you cannot withstand the scrutiny, and you can't, perhaps you should just leave. The science of ID is in the detection and study of design in nature. We claim to have a methodology for making the determination between natural and artificial. That is what we have demonstrated. So, we have upheld our requirements. You, not so much.ET
July 7, 2022
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Querious at 47, "Hawking radiation reduces the mass and rotational energy of black holes and is therefore also theorized to cause black hole evaporation. Because of this, black holes that do not gain mass through other means are expected to shrink and ultimately vanish. For all except the smallest black holes, this would happen extremely slowly. The radiation temperature is inversely proportional to the black hole's mass, so micro black holes are predicted to be larger emitters of radiation than larger black holes and should dissipate faster.[4]" The "evaporation" of a black hole involves sub-atomic/quantum effects. The interaction between the black hole and the event horizon is not understood. But the black hole cannot just sit there since its high gravity and conversion of matter to energy involves a system that is not yet defined. I will speculate that a black hole is like a candle burning down. The wax disappearing as it is burned off.relatd
July 7, 2022
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Relatd @46, Gravitational lensing is evidence that gravity warps space-time. I don't object to the idea of mass-energy converting mass into energy in a black hole , but the event horizon prevents any radiation escaping from event horizon. Hawking proposed the dissipation of black holes from an extremely slow radiation (Hawking radiation) of half of a pair of virtual particles just outside the event horizon. I don't see how Hawking radiation helps regarding the dissipation of black holes. Virtual particles still cannot escape the event horizon. The "evaporation" analogy is misleading in my opinion. But a contributor to the Physics Stack Exchange puts it like this:
The particle that enters the event horizon has been trapped in an infinite potential gravitational well, so can be thought to have negative energy. So anti-intuitively (wait, what part of all this is even intuitive!), the particle left lurking outside the absorbs some energy from the black hole, (thus conserving mass-energy) gets converted into a “classical” photon and escapes the vicinity of the black hole. Thus little by little, such events cause a black hole to effectively “evaporate” and diminish.
I'm not sure I understand what "negative energy" is (antimatter? anti-energy?) or how the other half of a pair of virtual particles absorbs energy from a black hole to convert it into a photon. The dissipation of energy within a black hole potentially involves plasma jets (traveling close to the speed of light, but still outside the event horizon), thermal radiation (conduction?), spin, charge, frame-dragging, deformation of its magnetic field, deformation of space-time (including gravitational waves), and maybe even quantum tunneling. As more data becomes available, maybe we'll get a better idea about the dynamics of black holes, both inside and outside the event horizon. -QQuerius
July 7, 2022
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Querius at 45, With all due respect, Einstein is no longer a fully informed idea. Gravity is not the whole idea. A black hole is essentially a matter to energy converter. Matter goes in, a reaction due to high gravity, occurs and energy, in the form of some type of radiation, bleeds off the black hole. Why the intense gravity does not destroy the black hole in an explosion is unknown. It will just dissipate after a time. Slowly losing actual mass due to the release of this unknown, undefined type of energy/radiation.relatd
July 7, 2022
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Relatd @44,
Still running away from the Creator?
Yes, obviously. The logic goes like this: 1. Information cannot be created or destroyed. 2. Information exists. 3. Therefore (since God doesn't exist), information must always have existed and you don't need God to have created it. I've always had trouble imagining Hawking radiation solving anything. If one of a pair of virtual particles crosses the event horizon and the other does not, the one that "escapes" will still wind up in crossing the event horizon a tiny fraction of a second later due to . . . (drum roll) the gravity of the black hole (which doesn't magically switch off outside the event horizon).
Everything with physical properties is reduced to energy.
And, according to Einstein, that energy warps space-time, commonly known as "gravity." https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/680704/how-much-energy-is-there-in-curved-spacetime-of-a-black-hole -QQuerius
July 6, 2022
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Seversky at 43, Still running away from the Creator? "... in which [case] there is no requirement for a creator." Stephen Hawking proposed interesting theories but it requires a bit of breaking down when it comes to black holes. The point where an object is pulled into a black hole is defined. The so-called 'event horizon.' That the black hole does not gain mass is false. The intensity of the pull of gravity means anything pulled in is reduced to sub-atomic components and even 'packets of energy' like light cannot escape. This suggests that matter is gradually reduced to energy and is bled off into space. Everything with physical properties is reduced to energy.relatd
July 6, 2022
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If there is a conservation law of information and it can neither be created nor destroyed then it must always have existed, in which there is no requirement for a creator. But is information conserved? I found this blogpost which is an informative discussion of the issues. For example, there is the question about information going into black holes but not coming out, which would suggest information is not conserved:
This idea is at the basis of on the great controversies of modern physics, Stephen Hawking’s ‘black hole paradox’. Once anything drops into a black hole, it disappears from our universe; the black hole increases in mass, but that tells us nothing about the nature of what has gone in; it, and the information it carries, appear to have disappeared from the universe. Howking showed that black holes emit a form of radiation, which will eventually cause the black hole to dissipate, returning its mass/energy to the universe, But, according to Hawking, the nature of this radiation is the same regardless of what has gone into the black hole; information is not returned to the universe, and is therefore not conserved. This is disputed by some physicists, and the issue is far from resolved, despite Hawking’s claims over the years to have solved the problem. This is an illustration of how the concept of information- though in a different guise from that familiar to the library/information science – is at the heart of physical questions.
Seversky
July 6, 2022
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ET: Please tell us how natural processes produced the elements, such as hydrogen and oxygen. That means you have to tell us how natural processes produced gravity, the strong and weak nuclear forces and EM. If you can’t do that then you only have question-begging. Of course, you can't say how all those things happened. You have a double standard when it comes to explanations.JVL
July 6, 2022
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Please tell us how natural processes produced the elements, such as hydrogen and oxygen. That means you have to tell us how natural processes produced gravity, the strong and weak nuclear forces and EM. If you can't do that then you only have question-begging. Natural processes only exist in nature and as such could not have produced it. Whoops...ET
July 6, 2022
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Fred vHickson:
But two molecules of hydrogen react with one molecule of oxygen atom to produce two molecules of water, always have, always will.
Two water molecules. There isn't any water when you have just two molecules of H2O.ET
July 6, 2022
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From the OP:
What my colleagues and I at the Evolutionary Informatics Lab found is that, apart from intelligent causation, attempts to explain information do nothing to alleviate, and may actually intensify, the problem of explaining the information’s origin. It’s like filling one hole by digging another, but where the newly dug hole is at least as deep and wide as the first one (often more so).
Nice analogy. This is also why "Methinks it is like a weasel" is also "smuggled-in" information in that the rejections involve intrinsic filters to an artificially specified target rather than random genetic drift. In my opinion, there are two problems: 1. "Shannon information" doesn't have anything to do with information per se, but rather it deals with the limits of data compression. 2. I'm not sure that anyone really understands a way to specify or compare amounts of information. Specified functionality might come close, but that depends on context. For example, consider a very simple bottle/can opener such as a "church key." Its shape might capture an incredibly elegant design that incorporates massive human interface and environmental data for broad functionality at an extremely low price. But how would you measure the amount of information in the design on a planet without bottles, cans, or humans? Complexity might mask information. For example, compare our incredibly elegant church key with a Swiss Army knife. While the Swiss Army knife is more complex, the church key might do a much better job due to the larger amount of design information incorporated in it. Another problem emerges when one tries to create a self-sustaining artificial ecosystem. I've come to learn that my failed attempts were typical: artificial ecosystems tend to quickly destabilize, oscillate, and crash its carrying capacity. This also has to "evolve" along with the organisms in that ecosystem. This aspect of evolution doesn't seem to get a lot of attention, also there's been research in the subject. For example https://www.researchgate.net/publication/290261829_Artificial_ecosystem_with_competition_and_evolution I don't have broad experience with such simulations, how their parameters are adjusted (hopefully realistic rather than hacked), and what their success rate looks like under changing conditions. If anyone here has had research experience with ecosystem simulation, would you care to comment? -QQuerius
July 5, 2022
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PK at 37, ID is science. Evolution is speculation.relatd
July 5, 2022
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@Relatd #36 Science has no power? But I thought ID WAS science. ???Pater Kimbridge
July 5, 2022
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PK at 32, Power. That word I hate. Science has no power. ID is the correct answer. Evolution is sinking out of sight.relatd
July 5, 2022
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Talking about religion, darwinists declared that life emerged from chemicals without delivering any scientific evidence . The "scientists" made this declaration based on their "optimism" :lol: "soon will be proven" in lab . Nothing yet. We waiting for 100 years. No evidence but I wonder why they didn't discarded their false allegation that life emerged from chemicals when they didn't keep their word to provide the evidence? They kept this lie for 100 years and still continue to do so . Darwinism is a religion or better said is a kind of satanism(see influence of darwinism over Hitler ,Stalin, Marx, eugenics, depravity, abortion , millions of deaths of born and unborn, etc )Lieutenant Commander Data
July 5, 2022
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PK, you know better, speak with regard to truth and right reason. First, start with the string data structure, four state per character coded information in D/RNA, and how in part it is algorithmic. This is language using alphanumeric characters [I update Crick's alphabet reference], and expressing stepwise goal directed procedures with halting, thus purpose. You can hyperskeptically deny, attempt to smear and obfuscate all you want but those are observable objective facts that are based on Nobel Prize winning work, highest awards for scientific achievements. I infer on this that we here have chapter zero text of earth history, to be read against the backdrop of a cosmos fine tuned in many ways for life, further warranting an inference to design of life in context of a cosmos designed to support life. And, if you want to imagine that the text in D/RNA is "religious text," then so be it, you have therefore religious text before and partly constitutive of cell based life, on such an assertion. KFkairosfocus
July 5, 2022
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Creationists desperate to dress up religion to look like science
You are apparently ignorant of what ID is about. ID has nothing to do with religion. It is actually better science than any of the science taught at 99.99% of the universities on the planet. You should just ask questions rather than making judgments on things you know little about.jerry
July 5, 2022
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@KF #31 Creationists desperate to dress up religion to look like science. A noteworthy admission of the power that science wields as compared to superstitious nonsense.Pater Kimbridge
July 5, 2022
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