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At Evolution News: Günter Bechly repudiates “Professor Dave’s” attacks against ID

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Günter Bechly, Senior Fellow of the Center for Science and Culture, addresses the off-base accusations made against ID and the Discovery Institute.

Dave Farina is an atheist American YouTuber who runs a channel called Professor Dave Explains with almost two million subscribers.

The clichés and misrepresentations Farina recycles about intelligent design are beyond tired. Still, those new to the debate might find it helpful to see Farina’s false claims debunked.

Farina seems more interested in caricaturing those he disagrees with than understanding them.

Three Major Problems 

Farina also thinks that intelligent design theory “cannot be validated as real science because it does not explain or predict anything.” Here are three major problems with this statement:

Who defines what qualifies as “real science”? It is certainly not Dave Farina. It is not judges in court rooms. And it is not even the scientists themselves who define “science.” Reasonably, it is philosophers of science who address this question. But Farina seems to be totally ignorant of the fact that there is no consensus among philosophers of science about a demarcation criterion that could reliably distinguish science from non-science. Any criterion yet suggested, including Karl Popper’s criterion of falsifiability, either excludes too much (e.g., scientific fields like string theory or evolutionary biology) or includes too much (e.g., homeopathy or parapsychology).

Of course, intelligent design has explanatory power. Otherwise, we could not even explain the existence of Romeo and Juliet by the intelligent agency of William Shakespeare. There is no doubt that the designing activity of an intelligent agent is a perfectly valid explanation for complex specified patterns. The only question under debate is whether such patterns are confined to the realm of human cultural artifacts or if they are also found in nature. But this question should not be decided by dogmatic a priorirestrictions of certain worldviews that do not allow for design explanations whatever the evidence might be, but should rather follow the evidence wherever it leads. It is an empirical question to be decided by the data.

It is simply false that intelligent design does not predict anything. Indeed, this is yet another common stereotype that has been refuted so many times by ID proponents that any further use of this argument can be based only on a total ignorance of the facts (or perhaps deliberate lying, but I prefer not to apply that interpretation). Stephen Meyer (2009) included in his book Signature in the Cell a whole chapter with a dozen predictions inspired by intelligent design theory. These are often very precise and easily falsifiable, for example: “No undirected process will demonstrate the capacity to generate 500 bits of new [specified] information starting from a nonbiological source.” Just write a computer simulation that achieves this, without smuggling the information in through a backdoor, and you can claim victory over a core prediction of intelligent design.

Evolution News

Dr. Bechly addresses numerous additional misfires attempted by Professor Dave. With such a voluble spray of baseless accusations coming from someone like Professor Dave, it can be helpful to be reminded of the proverb, “Like a sparrow in its flitting, like a swallow in its flying, a curse that is causeless does not alight.” (Proverbs 26:2)

Comments
EDTA: Even after I and several others went to great length to explain that predictions are not characteristic of all branches of science as a test of their scientific-ness, and that ID is also partly an inference arrived at by eliminating possibilities that are simply too improbably to put blind faith into. But how do you know if your inference is correct unless you can test it? Look, if ID is science then what science is it doing? I really don’t understand why you don’t incorporate our arguments into your thinking and then try to top them. Instead you repeat the same original arguments of yours over and over again. Can you explain that to me? Thanks. I don't think you're being scientific by just saying: ooo, such and such looks too improbable to have come about via unguided processes. That's just a negative argument. Why not consider what you'd expect to see under an ID system, make a prediction and then test to see if that happens? Otherwise, what good is ID if it doesn't tell us something that we can expect to see?JVL
July 9, 2022
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"Is that UB abandoning his hypothesis?" "Alright, we'll call it a draw" - Monty Python - The Black Knight - Tis But A Scratch https://youtu.be/ZmInkxbvlCs?t=157 :)bornagain77
July 9, 2022
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872 Upright BiPed July 8, 2022 at 11:42 am . Relatd, you can take it from here. Bye to all.
Missed this comment before. Is that UB abandoning his hypothesis? In which case, I commend his decision. He will have more time for more productive stuff. If UB really has quit, I may as well take my leave too. Anyone wishing to reach me can do so at fredhickson@protonmail.com Thanks for being such patient listeners and best wishes for the future.Fred Hickson
July 9, 2022
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The discussions here would get better if detractors didn’t keep making the same old arguments over and over again, and could think up some new arguments to try to leapfrog ours. I guess that is just too much to ask.
Have you heard the story of the horses teeth? A lively discussion on how many teeth a horse has was interrupted by a young scholar saying "couldn't we just count them?". Reality is available if we just go and look. ETA http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=713157Fred Hickson
July 8, 2022
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It’s good you recognize that there is no known natural process that could create the output in question.
Just because I can't supply a ready answer does not mean I should throw in the towel and default to the non-explanation of "Design!". I'm comfortable with partial explanations and further research.
But while you might not like miracles...
I've yet to experience one, nor have I heard convincing evidence for such a thing.
...your frozen accident is one (or two actually – first, the virtually impossible alignment and second, that it was frozen and preserved in an environment hostile to it).
Virtually impossible alignment of what? More detail, please. Hostile environment? Again more detail please. In the pre-LUCA world, what would be hostile? Predators? The environment? I assume that environment and organism are in lockstep otherwise extinction is inevitable. Hostile environment, no organisms.
The ID proposal is that a codon was associated with a certain amino acid and not with another because the process was intelligently designed that way.
I prefer the simpler approach that if we don't know something we can look for an answer.Fred Hickson
July 8, 2022
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FH
Anyone is invited to offer an explanation, preferably not involving miracles ... I already suggested a frozen accident.
It's good you recognize that there is no known natural process that could create the output in question. But while you might not like miracles your frozen accident is one (or two actually - first, the virtually impossible alignment and second, that it was frozen and preserved in an environment hostile to it). The ID proposal is that a codon was associated with a certain amino acid and not with another because the process was intelligently designed that way.Silver Asiatic
July 8, 2022
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JH,
Maybe you can try to explain why homosexuality, same sex marriage,...are harmful. And see if you can do it without imposing religious beliefs.
Do you mean without relying on religious foundations? That has been done. BA77 has posted the following link (probably years ago now), which makes the case against same-sex marriage without relying on a religious foundation: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1722155 The discussions here would get better if detractors didn't keep making the same old arguments over and over again, and could think up some new arguments to try to leapfrog ours. I guess that is just too much to ask.EDTA
July 8, 2022
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Intelligent Design predicts the same basic thing as archaeology and forensic science- namely, that when intelligent agencies act, they tend to leave traces of their actions behind. These traces may be uncovered at a later date when someone is trying to determine a cause for the effect they are observing and want to investigate. Intelligent Design says that irreducible complexity, specified complexity and complex specified information are such traces with respect to life on Earth. And we say that because in every instance that we have observed such traces and knew the cause, it was always via intelligent agency volition. AND, just as with archaeology and forensic science, all one has to do to refute that they are traces for ID, is to demonstrate that nature is up to the task. Which would be quite the feat seeing that nature had already been eliminated. It would be like glaciers and floods producing Stonehenge after centuries of saying it's an artifact. And we can predict, based on ID, there are or was, other intelligent beings in the universe.ET
July 8, 2022
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JH (Attn FH): You both know my context, which makes your pretzel twisted strawman caricature all the more illustrative of the force of the underlying point. Do you understand yourself to be duty and even honour bound to truth, right reason, prudence including warrant, sound conscience, neighbour, so too fairness and justice? Do you acknowledge that these duties are branch on which we all sit first principles so that even objectors -- as you evidently are -- find themselves invariably appealing to these same first duties they are trying to overthrow? We know the answers based on exchanges some months back and further attempts since. You may not like the conclusion that in all prudence we draw for cause, but you full well know why. Disregard, for truth, for right reason, for sound warrant, for sound conscience and more. Indeed, it is utterly unsurprising to see those with this problem in support of the continued slaughter of our living posterity in the womb. And yes, it is commitments like those first duties which are part of the fabric of social capital that buttresses and stabilises a lawful, constitutional democratic community. The acid of amoral skepticism weakens those buttresses and so undermines stability of our civilisation and liberty under sound law and government. That is why unsound and blood drenched decrees under colour of law find support and find people who imagine that they can have a right to kill their living posterity at will. As for trying to remake personal identity, sense of sound sexual order, family life, family law and the like without due regard for principles tied to the core just outlined, that is utterly unsurprising also. For, not only are these first duties the core of moral government of our rational, responsible freedom, they are also first, built in law that articulates to sound frameworks for law and government. It is disregard for such first principles that leads to the sort of unsound nominalism and legal positivism that are eroding our civilisation's key supportive buttresses as we speak. Leading, to ever spreading chaos. As is evident all around. Where, no, this is not empty repetition, it is an analysis that points out what we need to heed but too many are disinclined to hear and wish to silence. An ill advised attitude if ever there was one. KFkairosfocus
July 8, 2022
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The genetic code pertains to the building of proteins. Cells come from cells. And the genetic code definitely doesn’t determine biological form.
:) I wonder why darwinists "forgot" to mention that DNA code is in fact the simplest code that is found in the cell? The simplest and the most unsophisticated code that the scientists could figure out . The most complex seems to be the sugar code that is 100 times more complex than DNA. The peak of complexity is not inside the cell , is inside the brain.Lieutenant Commander Data
July 8, 2022
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Jblais:
The genetic code IS a language. A programming language that is used to build living cells and living organisms.
Proteins. The genetic code pertains to the building of proteins. Cells come from cells. And the genetic code definitely doesn't determine biological form. The genetic code pertains to transcription and translation, ie the rules for taking the source code in DNA and producing the object code in a functioning protein, ie a specified polypeptide.ET
July 8, 2022
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re 918 and 922: Jerry, your bemoaning the uselessness of discussions at this site is as uselessly repetitious as the discussions you denigrate. So I'm dropping in to ask you this serious question: why don't you leave, as I have effectively done? Or, as Dylan said in "Floater", "Why don’t you just shove off If it bothers you so much”Viola Lee
July 8, 2022
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With all due respect, may I suggest you take a stance
This is an ignorant reply. I took a stance. And I can back it up. My point is whatever one says, it will lead nowhere on this site.jerry
July 8, 2022
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JVL,
Nor, does it seem, can ID present any kind of testable prediction that we can check.
Still beating that drum, huh? Even after I and several others went to great length to explain that predictions are not characteristic of all branches of science as a test of their scientific-ness, and that ID is also partly an inference arrived at by eliminating possibilities that are simply too improbably to put blind faith into. I really don't understand why you don't incorporate our arguments into your thinking and then try to top them. Instead you repeat the same original arguments of yours over and over again. Can you explain that to me? Thanks.EDTA
July 8, 2022
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Jerry at 918, With all due respect, may I suggest you take a stance and stick to it? As opposed to: this may be a bad thing but it may not be a bad thing.relatd
July 8, 2022
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Maybe you can try to explain why homosexuality
:lol: Another one who doesn't know was is the purpose of the opening at the end of the alimentary canal through which solid waste matter leaves the body.Lieutenant Commander Data
July 8, 2022
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see if you can do it without imposing religious beliefs.
I’m reluctant to try and answer this because it could lead to another 1000 useless comments. But the answer as to why oppose what you see as ok is that these activities could have serious negative effects on society, effects that might not show up for a few generations. Or it might not. At which point one could then argue that’s it’s ok to permit them. I can see at least a thousand comments as people rant on why one is preferable vs the other. Nothing gets decided here. It’s mainly a place to hold forth.jerry
July 8, 2022
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JH at 916, JHolo, report to the Principal's Office. At the Principal's Office: P: I see you are accusing people of imposing their religious beliefs on you, and others, for no reason. Explain yourself. Why can't people express their religious beliefs without you assuming that they are imposing anything on you? This is happening on the internet only, right?relatd
July 8, 2022
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KF: JH, enough was said for record. You will say whatever you want, on track record. KF
Enough has been said, multiple times. But repeating the same things over and over again do not make your arguments any more convincing. Maybe you can try to explain why homosexuality, same sex marriage, masturbation, transgender, premarital sex, etc are harmful. And see if you can do it without imposing religious beliefs.JHolo
July 8, 2022
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Still running, huh Fred.
See what I mean? Futile!Fred Hickson
July 8, 2022
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JH, enough was said for record. You will say whatever you want, on track record. KFkairosfocus
July 8, 2022
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Relatd: You are very good at mischaracterizing ID. At its most basic, ID has predicted that design, not chance, is the answer. ID has not 'predicted' that. ID proponents have looked at the complexity of life on earth and declared that since they cannot understand or conceive of how natural processes could have brought about such things they must have been designed. That is not the same thing at all. In fact, the modern design movement played on the increased perception at how complex life is at its base. It did not predict that complexity. Nor, does it seem, can ID present any kind of testable prediction that we can check. The way you think science works is looking at fossils, for example, and deciding beforehand, that it must “fit” evolutionary theory – at all costs. If it doesn’t then an explanation is invented. Example: “evolution is fast except when it’s slow” or “certain animals change over time except when they don’t.” Fossils of a particular fish that is supposedly millions of years old show no change over that time period, while the earth has gone through changes, including catastrophic changes. You can misunderstand modern evolutionary theory all you like but that doesn't mean that ID is a 'better' explanation nor does it mean that ID has any kind of explanatory power by being able to present a testable prediction based on ID precepts. In the meantime, scientists are only discovering more not less complexity in living things. This drops the possibility of blind, unguided chance being responsible by orders of magnitude. Uh huh. Several hundred years ago the idea that the continents moved would have been considered ridiculous and laughable. Surely they were fixed in their positions. And then we found out that, actually, the situation was much more complex than that. And someone came up with an explanation, based on natural, unguided processes that accounted for all the complexity that we see. Or do you think that the designer moved the continents around as part of the big plan? That is my entire answer. Your questions, as phrased, ignore the obvious. Whatever happened, blind, unguided chance could not have done it. So, you have not provided a testable, ID based hypothesis. I shall take it to mean that you can't. Thank for replying. You could have just said 'no' much earlier and simplified things a lot.JVL
July 8, 2022
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"science doesn’t really deal with “why” Still running, huh Fred. Andrewasauber
July 8, 2022
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Why not start with “why a codon is associated with an amino acid and not another”.
I already suggested a frozen accident. I did quibble on "why" as science doesn't really deal with "why" questions, that's for philosophers. Why comment at Uncommon Descent? One reason, helps maintain my cognitive abilities. At my age, that's important. I'd ask you a question now but I've already discovered it's futile.Fred Hickson
July 8, 2022
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JVL at 905, You are very good at mischaracterizing ID. At its most basic, ID has predicted that design, not chance, is the answer. The way you think science works is looking at fossils, for example, and deciding beforehand, that it must "fit" evolutionary theory - at all costs. If it doesn't then an explanation is invented. Example: "evolution is fast except when it's slow" or "certain animals change over time except when they don't." Fossils of a particular fish that is supposedly millions of years old show no change over that time period, while the earth has gone through changes, including catastrophic changes. In the meantime, scientists are only discovering more not less complexity in living things. This drops the possibility of blind, unguided chance being responsible by orders of magnitude. That is my entire answer. Your questions, as phrased, ignore the obvious. Whatever happened, blind, unguided chance could not have done it.relatd
July 8, 2022
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"I don’t know the answer to “why is there a universe?”. Any idea, Andrew?" Fred, Why not start with "why a codon is associated with an amino acid and not another". or Why does Fred comment at UD? Andrewasauber
July 8, 2022
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Ah, watch Fred fearfully avoiding the Big Questions.
I don't know the answer to "why is there a universe?". Any idea, Andrew?Fred Hickson
July 8, 2022
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"No, not why, how." Ah, watch Fred fearfully avoiding the Big Questions. Andrewasauber
July 8, 2022
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But you see, in the case of the genetic code, you need to explain why a codon is associated with an amino acid and not another.
No, not why, how. And is it just me? Anyone is invited to offer an explanation, preferably not involving miracles, or it's no shame to say "I don't know".Fred Hickson
July 8, 2022
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Relatd: Why do you answer the question? Why bother asking me? Why shouldn't I ask you? You think ID is a science don't you? If so then can you suggest a test or experiment based on an ID prediction that we can check? Yes or no. If you don’t believe in God that’s up to you. Some of the greatest scientists gave God credit for their discoveries but that’s ignored. That's not really the point though is it. If ID is a science then it should have predictive and explanatory power. That means you should be able to give an example of an ID prediction that we can test. Can you do that? You make lots and lots of arguments about science but you don't seem to understand how it works. Curious.JVL
July 8, 2022
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