Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

At Evolution News: Günter Bechly repudiates “Professor Dave’s” attacks against ID

Categories
Intelligent Design
worldview
Share
Facebook
Twitter/X
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Günter Bechly, Senior Fellow of the Center for Science and Culture, addresses the off-base accusations made against ID and the Discovery Institute.

Dave Farina is an atheist American YouTuber who runs a channel called Professor Dave Explains with almost two million subscribers.

The clichés and misrepresentations Farina recycles about intelligent design are beyond tired. Still, those new to the debate might find it helpful to see Farina’s false claims debunked.

Farina seems more interested in caricaturing those he disagrees with than understanding them.

Three Major Problems 

Farina also thinks that intelligent design theory “cannot be validated as real science because it does not explain or predict anything.” Here are three major problems with this statement:

Who defines what qualifies as “real science”? It is certainly not Dave Farina. It is not judges in court rooms. And it is not even the scientists themselves who define “science.” Reasonably, it is philosophers of science who address this question. But Farina seems to be totally ignorant of the fact that there is no consensus among philosophers of science about a demarcation criterion that could reliably distinguish science from non-science. Any criterion yet suggested, including Karl Popper’s criterion of falsifiability, either excludes too much (e.g., scientific fields like string theory or evolutionary biology) or includes too much (e.g., homeopathy or parapsychology).

Of course, intelligent design has explanatory power. Otherwise, we could not even explain the existence of Romeo and Juliet by the intelligent agency of William Shakespeare. There is no doubt that the designing activity of an intelligent agent is a perfectly valid explanation for complex specified patterns. The only question under debate is whether such patterns are confined to the realm of human cultural artifacts or if they are also found in nature. But this question should not be decided by dogmatic a priorirestrictions of certain worldviews that do not allow for design explanations whatever the evidence might be, but should rather follow the evidence wherever it leads. It is an empirical question to be decided by the data.

It is simply false that intelligent design does not predict anything. Indeed, this is yet another common stereotype that has been refuted so many times by ID proponents that any further use of this argument can be based only on a total ignorance of the facts (or perhaps deliberate lying, but I prefer not to apply that interpretation). Stephen Meyer (2009) included in his book Signature in the Cell a whole chapter with a dozen predictions inspired by intelligent design theory. These are often very precise and easily falsifiable, for example: “No undirected process will demonstrate the capacity to generate 500 bits of new [specified] information starting from a nonbiological source.” Just write a computer simulation that achieves this, without smuggling the information in through a backdoor, and you can claim victory over a core prediction of intelligent design.

Evolution News

Dr. Bechly addresses numerous additional misfires attempted by Professor Dave. With such a voluble spray of baseless accusations coming from someone like Professor Dave, it can be helpful to be reminded of the proverb, “Like a sparrow in its flitting, like a swallow in its flying, a curse that is causeless does not alight.” (Proverbs 26:2)

Comments
Fred Hickson:
you may have missed my point. In a RNA world scenario there is no protein, the equivalent work is done by ribozymes.
There isn't any evidence for any RNA world. Why do you ignore that reality? And without proteins you don't have a living organism.
My challenge is to propose the steps that could have taken RNA world to DNA-protein world.
You can't demonstrate the existence of any RNA world. So, you lost. There isn't any link from RNA to DNA based life. So, you lost, again. In the 1990s a new problem was uncovered:
“Each day our DNA is damaged by UV radiation, free radicals and other carcinogenic substances, but even without such external attacks, a DNA molecule is inherently unstable. Thousands of spontaneous changes to a cell’s genome occur on a daily basis. Furthermore, defects can also arise when DNA is copied during cell division, a process that occurs several million times every day in the human body. The reason our genetic material does not disintegrate into complete chemical chaos is that a host of molecular systems continuously monitor and repair DNA. The Nobel Prize in Chemistry 2015 awards three pioneering scientists who have mapped how several of these repair systems function at a detailed molecular level. In the early 1970s, scientists believed that DNA was an extremely stable molecule, but Tomas Lindahl demonstrated that DNA decays at a rate that ought to have made the development of life on Earth impossible. This insight led him to discover a molecular machinery, base excision repair, which constantly counteracts the collapse of our DNA.” (The Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences https://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/chemistry/laureates/2015/press.html)
The consequences are huge. You can't have DNA based life without an existing suite of specialized proteins that need to be coded in the DNA!!! Now I am sure that you will ignore that and prattle on because that is what you do.ET
June 10, 2022
June
06
Jun
10
10
2022
05:06 AM
5
05
06
AM
PDT
. I appreciate the candor. It is late. Too late to comment.Upright BiPed
June 10, 2022
June
06
Jun
10
10
2022
12:22 AM
12
12
22
AM
PDT
Ribozymes do not replace aaRS. You have your parts mixed up.
We both need to be more careful with clarification. The job of aaRSs did not exist in RNA world. The replicating RNA is the ribozyme. It doesn't need any translating etc, it is a direct copy produced by one process, replication. Translation, DNA to protein, comes later. My challenge is to propose the steps that could have taken RNA world to DNA-protein world. Your challenge, should you wish to accept it, is to show no path is possible.Fred Hickson
June 10, 2022
June
06
Jun
10
10
2022
12:12 AM
12
12
12
AM
PDT
It's late for me so further detailed response will have to wait till morning but...
Fred, when an RNA replicates, the end result of that process is determined by the physical properties of the RNA. When an RNA provides catalytic activity, again the end result of that process is determined by the physical properties of the RNA (acting upon its reactant molecules). Both of those processes are measurable and reversible in principle. But when mRNA is used to specify a particular amino acid during gene expression, it is a discontinuous process and is non-reversible. While any and all of these processes must faithfully follow physical law, the fact of the matter is that the physical structure of the mRNA does not determine the end result — it does not determine which amino acid will be presented for binding inside the ribosome. The establishment of the codon-to-anticodon relationship is spatially and temporally independent of the anticodon-to-amino acid relationship. This is what gives the system the degrees of freedom it requires in order to function as it does, where it is able to specify a particular protein, as well as any variation of that protein. In short, the systematic capacity of mRNA to carry the specification of an amino acid does not stem from the structure of the RNA, but from the structure of a separate molecule — a non-holonomic constraint, aaRS.
I have no issue with this, even the "non-holonomic" which is strictly true as we are discussing (admittedly big) molecules, not robots. But what is found in cytoplasm today has not always existed. The origins of the systems we see are not all clearly evident from their current state The origin(s) remain speculative. Your point that the discontinuity between DNA acting purely as a template and protein acting in every other role (with those important and specific roles still played by RNA) is a very strong and effective one and would be even fatal but for the idea of simpler precursors. In an RNA world, with RNA playing both roles, there is no need for genetic codes or aminoacyl tRNA synthetases, as RNA only (only?) needs to replicate copies of itself. This reduces the challenge of chicken-and-egg from insoluble to a huge but not impossible one. Let me say, I've followed your progress in arguing for your "semiotic hypothesis" since, what - 2011?, and I think as you state it, it is a solid barrier I think also the core point is very simple, whether a precursor of an RNA world sidesteps your barrier. I think it does, though ten years or so ago, I didn't.Fred Hickson
June 10, 2022
June
06
Jun
10
10
2022
12:07 AM
12
12
07
AM
PDT
. Fred, Two things: #1 The public is constantly told that RNA can carry the information in the genome as well as provide the catalytic activity of proteins. So the question was: ”What are the necessary physical conditions required for RNA to serve the role as a carrier of information like mRNA?” You indeed must have understood the question, since you yourself mentioned mRNA in your answer “mRNA isn’t a separate role”. So I am afraid it is not me that missed the point. #2 Ribozymes do not replace aaRS. You have your parts mixed up.Upright BiPed
June 9, 2022
June
06
Jun
9
09
2022
11:26 PM
11
11
26
PM
PDT
Querius, I respond here as I have time. I don't respond to everything. The most egregious nonsense doesn't need a response. Take credit for the time I have spent on some of your comments, it's not personal.Fred Hickson
June 9, 2022
June
06
Jun
9
09
2022
11:12 PM
11
11
12
PM
PDT
UB, you may have missed my point. In a RNA world scenario there is no protein, the equivalent work is done by ribozymes.Fred Hickson
June 9, 2022
June
06
Jun
9
09
2022
11:09 PM
11
11
09
PM
PDT
. #312
UB: What are the necessary physical conditions required for RNA to serve the role as a carrier of information like mRNA? Fred: If an RNA replicates (and it does) and that molecule has catalytic activity (they can) mRNA isn’t a separate role
Fred, when an RNA replicates, the end result of that process is determined by the physical properties of the RNA. When an RNA provides catalytic activity, again the end result of that process is determined by the physical properties of the RNA (acting upon its reactant molecules). Both of those processes are measurable and reversible in principle. But when mRNA is used to specify a particular amino acid during gene expression, it is a discontinuous process and is non-reversible. While any and all of these processes must faithfully follow physical law, the fact of the matter is that the physical structure of the mRNA does not determine the end result — it does not determine which amino acid will be presented for binding inside the ribosome. The establishment of the codon-to-anticodon relationship is spatially and temporally independent of the anticodon-to-amino acid relationship. This is what gives the system the degrees of freedom it requires in order to function as it does, where it is able to specify a particular protein, as well as any variation of that protein. In short, the systematic capacity of mRNA to carry the specification of an amino acid does not stem from the structure of the RNA, but from the structure of a separate molecule — a non-holonomic constraint, aaRS. So if we recast your statement and include the missing context …
If an RNA replicates (based on the dynamic structure of the RNA) and if that RNA has catalytic activity (based on the dynamic structure of the RNA) then the message-carrying capacity of messenger RNA (which is not based on the dynamic structure of the RNA) is not a separate role from replication or catalytic activity.
… then hopefully the fundamental problem with the statement becomes evident.Upright BiPed
June 9, 2022
June
06
Jun
9
09
2022
10:52 PM
10
10
52
PM
PDT
Querius, I don’t see much mileage in addressing your comment at 319. Too much straw.
Neat! I can add this one to my collection of trollbot evasions. In this case, it was to my "Here are some challenges that Darwinists always evade." Thank you for proving my point! -QQuerius
June 9, 2022
June
06
Jun
9
09
2022
05:57 PM
5
05
57
PM
PDT
False accusations are much easier than actually forming an argument. And the blatant hypocrisy of claiming a strawman in the face of what Fred said -> If an RNA replicates (and it does) and that molecule has catalytic activity (they can) mRNA isn’t a separate role., is hilarious. As I have explained, there is so much straw in that one sentence.ET
June 9, 2022
June
06
Jun
9
09
2022
03:40 PM
3
03
40
PM
PDT
Querius, I don't see much mileage in addressing your comment at 319. Too much straw.Fred Hickson
June 9, 2022
June
06
Jun
9
09
2022
03:24 PM
3
03
24
PM
PDT
Fred/ Alan has a strange fixation with upright biped. Fred will be back when upright biped responds, again.ET
June 9, 2022
June
06
Jun
9
09
2022
02:09 PM
2
02
09
PM
PDT
Lieutenant Commander Data and ET, Fred seems to have abandoned this conversation to start from scratch (!) with the same unsupported assertions in a more recent one. This is typical troll behavior. -QQuerius
June 9, 2022
June
06
Jun
9
09
2022
12:24 PM
12
12
24
PM
PDT
Fred is clueless, people. This proves he doesn't have a clue:
If an RNA replicates (and it does) and that molecule has catalytic activity (they can) mRNA isn’t a separate role.
mRNA doesn't replicate nor is it a catalyst. mRNA is a coded information carrier. Fred will continue to ignore that reality and prattle on. Fred doesn't have any integrity.ET
June 9, 2022
June
06
Jun
9
09
2022
06:01 AM
6
06
01
AM
PDT
The RNA World scenario is bad as a scientific hypothesis: it is hardly falsifiable and is extremely difficult to verify due to a great number of holes in the most important parts. To wit, no one has achieved bona fide self-replication of RNA which is the cornerstone of the RNA World. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3495036/ Imagining the origin of the largest rRNA (23S rRNA 2,904 nucleotide long in E. coli) that is the key component in peptidyl transferase it's believing that pigs can fly . Darwinists need a miracle therefore they need God to prove their materialist hypothesis. :lol: Also RNA world could not explain the emergence of the genetic code.Lieutenant Commander Data
June 9, 2022
June
06
Jun
9
09
2022
12:19 AM
12
12
19
AM
PDT
What amazes me is just how many miracles Darwinism relies on. - Miracles of the formation of large molecules for no reason. - Miracles for the persistence of such molecules defying entropy. - Miracles of the ability for the large molecules to replicate for no reason. - Miracles for the molecules to reprogram themselves randomly and for error correcting. - Miracles of semi-permeable membranes to form spontaneously for no reason. - Miracles for the insane complexity of interlocking chemical cycles that form spontaneously. - Miracles for ratcheting up complexity despite it's never ever being directly observed. - Miracles of convergent, parallel, recurrent evolution. - Miracles of rapid evolution such as the Cambrian explosion. And everything always happens under a magical black cape of deep time, professed ignorance, and solemn assurances. The magic incantation of "mighta-coulda-musta" is pronounced and the speculations miraculously turn into fact! Here are some challenges that Darwinists always evade: 1. Since the LD 50 /30 of bacteria is very high, expose them to enough ionizing radiation to cause a high level of random mutations that simulate the background radiation of millions of years. For example, D. radiodurans is an extremophile with an LD 50 /30 of ~500,000 rads while current levels of background radiation are about 0.05 rads per year. So blasting a large population of these bacteria with 500,000 rads is roughly simulates of the mutation rate of 10 million years. Doing this 100 times, will simulate about a billion years of evolution. However, it's believed that background radiation was about 10x when life first appeared on earth, so maybe zap them 500 times. Doing this carefully should yield chihuahuas and chickadees. 2. Subject a large population of bacteria to mechanical disintegration--make them into a bacteria smoothie. Next, subject the bio-smoothie to a range of permutations of ionizing radiation, various gases, electrical discharges, heat, cold, and loud heavy metal. How long will it take for these components to evolve back into at least bacteria? 3. Simulate evolution on a computer by randomly mutating an executable and subject it to some natural selection criteria that includes self-replication. On a fast computer, one should be able to force billions and billions of random mutations. Every few minutes run the executable, eliminating any that crash. After the equivalent of 4.5 billion years of evolution, you should then have an amazing new program! 4. Disassemble a mechanical wristwatch and put it into a paint can. Mount the paint can into a paint shaker and let it run until it reassembles some of its components. Glue the correctly reassembled parts together and put them all back into the paint shaker. Repeat until the entire watch is reassembled. -QQuerius
June 8, 2022
June
06
Jun
8
08
2022
10:25 PM
10
10
25
PM
PDT
Great. I'll get the popcorn ready. Fred is already claiming victory and he doesn't even understand the argument.ET
June 8, 2022
June
06
Jun
8
08
2022
10:01 PM
10
10
01
PM
PDT
I have a monster day tomorrow and another on Friday. If it is okay with you, I will try to answer your #312 before then, and will otherwise try to make myself available to comment over the weekend.
Great. I'll keep some time spare.Fred Hickson
June 8, 2022
June
06
Jun
8
08
2022
09:22 PM
9
09
22
PM
PDT
Fred Hickson:
If an RNA replicates (and it does) and that molecule has catalytic activity (they can) mRNA isn’t a separate role.
What? mRNA neither replicates nor is it a catalyst. mRNA REPRESENTS amino acids. mRNA is the SYMBOL. Where is the SYMBOL in your RNA world?ET
June 8, 2022
June
06
Jun
8
08
2022
09:03 PM
9
09
03
PM
PDT
. I understand completely. I have a monster day tomorrow and another on Friday. If it is okay with you, I will try to answer your #312 before then, and will otherwise try to make myself available to comment over the weekend.Upright BiPed
June 8, 2022
June
06
Jun
8
08
2022
08:58 PM
8
08
58
PM
PDT
Fred Hickson:
My point is that your whole “semiosis” argument fails on the existence of RNA and its dual role as replicator and catalyst.
That doesn't follow. There isn't any evidence for any RNA world. DNA based life requires an existing suite of specialized proteins and a specific coded information processing system. And there isn't any connection between RNA being a replicator and a catalyst and the genetic code. You clearly don't understand the argument or the evidence.ET
June 8, 2022
June
06
Jun
8
08
2022
08:56 PM
8
08
56
PM
PDT
I'm not in an ideal place and time for commenting currently. I was just pleased to catch you. There is absolutely no rush.Fred Hickson
June 8, 2022
June
06
Jun
8
08
2022
08:52 PM
8
08
52
PM
PDT
...what are the necessary physical conditions required for RNA to serve the role as a carrier of information like mRNA?
If an RNA replicates (and it does) and that molecule has catalytic activity (they can) mRNA isn't a separate role.Fred Hickson
June 8, 2022
June
06
Jun
8
08
2022
08:50 PM
8
08
50
PM
PDT
. Fred, I don’t propose “a chicken-and-egg conundrum of whether DNA as template and replicator could evolve before protein as catalysts”. Fred … what are the necessary physical conditions required for RNA to serve the role as a carrier of information like mRNA? Edit : Fred I don’t want you to think I am ignoring the article you suggested. We will certainly get to it, but your first comment seems so far off the mark that I think we should first try to get a little closer to the target before we go into it.Upright BiPed
June 8, 2022
June
06
Jun
8
08
2022
08:28 PM
8
08
28
PM
PDT
There's another thread making the same point. https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/nature-article-origin-of-life-theory-involving-rna-protein-hybrid-gets-new-support/#comment-757333Fred Hickson
June 8, 2022
June
06
Jun
8
08
2022
08:23 PM
8
08
23
PM
PDT
Well, the facts about RNA are what they are. RNA world as a precursor to your chicken-and-egg conundrum of whether DNA as template and replicator could evolve before protein as catalysts or vice versa solves the problem. ETA excuse edit. Fat fingers and phone.Fred Hickson
June 8, 2022
June
06
Jun
8
08
2022
08:14 PM
8
08
14
PM
PDT
. Fred, Being able to play a “dual role” (as a catalyst and as an information carrier like mRNA) implies that there are certain conditions that enable the RNA to play those two roles. What are the necessary physical conditions for RNA to be an information carrier like mRNA?Upright BiPed
June 8, 2022
June
06
Jun
8
08
2022
08:11 PM
8
08
11
PM
PDT
. Oh okay, Fred. How do you figure that that?Upright BiPed
June 8, 2022
June
06
Jun
8
08
2022
08:04 PM
8
08
04
PM
PDT
Hi UB, My point is that your whole "semiosis" argument fails on the existence of RNA and its dual role as replicator and catalyst.Fred Hickson
June 8, 2022
June
06
Jun
8
08
2022
07:50 PM
7
07
50
PM
PDT
JVL and FH, UB is clearly right on the merits. KF PS, JVL you have been repeatedly told that complex specific, configuration based function is first observed then on the sign design is inferred. You have even been given further examples. The Fib sequence or related matters such as phi or spirals etc might show up as a case where this being evidently a compositional principle [shape of Parthenon] and not either a myth or a mechanical constraint then it would point to art. Rounding periods between quasar pulses to seconds or similar population boom bust numbers do not point to any detachable specification. Flipping 500 coins and seeing within fluctuation h-T ratios with no evident pattern looks like chance, but an ASCII message in good English would be design. And more.kairosfocus
June 8, 2022
June
06
Jun
8
08
2022
04:25 PM
4
04
25
PM
PDT
1 20 21 22 23 24 33

Leave a Reply