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At Evolution News: Günter Bechly repudiates “Professor Dave’s” attacks against ID

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Günter Bechly, Senior Fellow of the Center for Science and Culture, addresses the off-base accusations made against ID and the Discovery Institute.

Dave Farina is an atheist American YouTuber who runs a channel called Professor Dave Explains with almost two million subscribers.

The clichés and misrepresentations Farina recycles about intelligent design are beyond tired. Still, those new to the debate might find it helpful to see Farina’s false claims debunked.

Farina seems more interested in caricaturing those he disagrees with than understanding them.

Three Major Problems 

Farina also thinks that intelligent design theory “cannot be validated as real science because it does not explain or predict anything.” Here are three major problems with this statement:

Who defines what qualifies as “real science”? It is certainly not Dave Farina. It is not judges in court rooms. And it is not even the scientists themselves who define “science.” Reasonably, it is philosophers of science who address this question. But Farina seems to be totally ignorant of the fact that there is no consensus among philosophers of science about a demarcation criterion that could reliably distinguish science from non-science. Any criterion yet suggested, including Karl Popper’s criterion of falsifiability, either excludes too much (e.g., scientific fields like string theory or evolutionary biology) or includes too much (e.g., homeopathy or parapsychology).

Of course, intelligent design has explanatory power. Otherwise, we could not even explain the existence of Romeo and Juliet by the intelligent agency of William Shakespeare. There is no doubt that the designing activity of an intelligent agent is a perfectly valid explanation for complex specified patterns. The only question under debate is whether such patterns are confined to the realm of human cultural artifacts or if they are also found in nature. But this question should not be decided by dogmatic a priorirestrictions of certain worldviews that do not allow for design explanations whatever the evidence might be, but should rather follow the evidence wherever it leads. It is an empirical question to be decided by the data.

It is simply false that intelligent design does not predict anything. Indeed, this is yet another common stereotype that has been refuted so many times by ID proponents that any further use of this argument can be based only on a total ignorance of the facts (or perhaps deliberate lying, but I prefer not to apply that interpretation). Stephen Meyer (2009) included in his book Signature in the Cell a whole chapter with a dozen predictions inspired by intelligent design theory. These are often very precise and easily falsifiable, for example: “No undirected process will demonstrate the capacity to generate 500 bits of new [specified] information starting from a nonbiological source.” Just write a computer simulation that achieves this, without smuggling the information in through a backdoor, and you can claim victory over a core prediction of intelligent design.

Evolution News

Dr. Bechly addresses numerous additional misfires attempted by Professor Dave. With such a voluble spray of baseless accusations coming from someone like Professor Dave, it can be helpful to be reminded of the proverb, “Like a sparrow in its flitting, like a swallow in its flying, a curse that is causeless does not alight.” (Proverbs 26:2)

Comments
Intelligent causes have demonstrated the power to produce large amounts of specified/functional information (and integrated circuitry).
Let's stick to Dembski's CSI (Complex Specified Information) if we can. Which of Dembski's definitions shall we use to calculate the CSI of something, preferably something biological? Then we need to establish what an "Intelligent Cause" is. How does an "Intelligent Cause" impinge on biological reality?Fred Hickson
June 4, 2022
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Trollbot alert @86. “Rob Davis” submitted a trash bin’s worth of unsupported assertions, accusations, and vituperation without a shred of evidence. Let me demonstrate. Here’s the trollbot’s assertions with simple substitution and negation:
You can keep asking how nature produced this and that..it really does matter and you know that it does. The difference between the position of naturalism and ID have one decisive distention [lol sic]. Every component for naturalism is speculation. Whereas the key component for ID is demonstrably real. NO amount of wishful thinking, an no amount of fallacious assumptions is going to change that. “You can’t explain xy with ID..so Darwinism is real” That is basically the Darwinist position. Darwinism relies in the existence and interference of some ill-defined process/ principle/ force/infinite amounts of random interaction whatever, not subject to the known laws of physics, that supposingly [sic] interacts with the fabric of our reality in ways that have thus far eluded every controlled experiment ever performed in the history of science. That puts your Darwinism …sorry, “evolution” on the same level as magical unicorns. Darwinist proponents consist of three major groups. Moronic clowns like Rob Davis. Ideologically motivated hacks who are usually lacking even the tiniest bit of integrity who make a living by telling lies and of course their prey, scientific illiterate, childhood indoctrinated victims of a failed, racist, 19th century speculation.
See what I mean? -QQuerius
June 4, 2022
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Intelligent causes have demonstrated the power to produce large amounts of specified/functional information (and integrated circuitry).Silver Asiatic
June 4, 2022
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PS @ ET (though of course anyone can answer), How do you propose to test your "hypothesis"?Fred Hickson
June 4, 2022
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There really is no testable scientific hypothesis of "Intelligent Design", as I said but let's have a look at what ET claims:
1) High information content (or specified complexity) and irreducible complexity constitute strong indicators or hallmarks of (past) intelligent design.
This is a sock-gnome argument. There's no way to link "CSI" (whatever that might be, I've never seen anyone produce figures for biological features) to "Designer did it". Complete non-sequitur and typical reversion to the default-without-justification negative argument. Evolution sucks so design wins.
2) Biological systems have a high information content (or specified complexity) and utilize subsystems that manifest irreducible complexity.
Meaningless.
3) Naturalistic mechanisms or undirected causes do not suffice to explain the origin of information (specified complexity) or irreducible complexity.
Back to the negative "evolution sucks so ID wins" routine.
4) Therefore, intelligent design constitutes the best explanations for the origin of information and irreducible complexity in biological systems.
Meaningless.Fred Hickson
June 4, 2022
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RD
“You can’t explain xy with naturalism..so magic is real” That is basically the ID position.
You can't explain the origin of a functional coded information system with naturalism ... but we can explain the origin of such a system by use of intelligence - we can model and produce that kind of system and observe it empirically using intelligence so naturalism fails and ID Is best inference for an explanation. It's not that difficult to get it right. But if you'll insist on distorting what ID is saying then you're just trying to score some points. But nobody here is going to be impressed with that.Silver Asiatic
June 4, 2022
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RD claims; "Every component for naturalism is demonstrably real. Whereas the key component for ID is NOT. Really? I guess someone forgot to send RD a memo on the falsification of realism. :) Quantum physics says goodbye to reality - Apr 20, 2007 Excerpt: Many realizations of the thought experiment have indeed verified the violation of Bell's inequality. These have ruled out all hidden-variables theories based on joint assumptions of realism, meaning that reality exists when we are not observing it; and locality, meaning that separated events cannot influence one another instantaneously. But a violation of Bell's inequality does not tell specifically which assumption – realism, locality or both – is discordant with quantum mechanics. Markus Aspelmeyer, Anton Zeilinger and colleagues from the University of Vienna, however, have now shown that realism is more of a problem than locality in the quantum world. They devised an experiment that violates a different inequality proposed by physicist Anthony Leggett in 2003 that relies only on realism, and relaxes the reliance on locality. To do this, rather than taking measurements along just one plane of polarization, the Austrian team took measurements in additional, perpendicular planes to check for elliptical polarization. They found that, just as in the realizations of Bell's thought experiment, Leggett's inequality is violated – thus stressing the quantum-mechanical assertion that reality does not exist when we're not observing it. "Our study shows that 'just' giving up the concept of locality would not be enough to obtain a more complete description of quantum mechanics," Aspelmeyer told Physics Web. "You would also have to give up certain intuitive features of realism." http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/27640 Should Quantum Anomalies Make Us Rethink Reality? Inexplicable lab results may be telling us we’re on the cusp of a new scientific paradigm By Bernardo Kastrup on April 19, 2018 Excerpt: ,, according to the current paradigm, (materialism and/or physicalism), the properties of an object should exist and have definite values even when the object is not being observed: the moon should exist and have whatever weight, shape, size and color it has even when nobody is looking at it. Moreover, a mere act of observation should not change the values of these properties. Operationally, all this is captured in the notion of “non-contextuality”: ,,, It turns out, however, that some predictions of QM are incompatible with non-contextuality even for a large and important class of non-local theories. Experimental results reported in 2007 and 2010 have confirmed these predictions. To reconcile these results with the current paradigm would require a profoundly counterintuitive redefinition of what we call “objectivity.” And since contemporary culture has come to associate objectivity with reality itself, the science press felt compelled to report on this by pronouncing, “Quantum physics says goodbye to reality.” https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/should-quantum-anomalies-make-us-rethink-reality/ And since 'intelligence' is the key component for ID, apparently RD is also trying to claim that Intelligence is not demonstrably real. What is ironic in his claim is that RD typed that claim out on a computer. A computer which is itself undeniable proof that intelligence is real. As George Ellis stated, “The mind is not a physical entity, but it certainly is causally effective: proof is the existence of the computer on which you are reading this text. It could not exist if it had not been designed and manufactured according to someone's plans, thereby proving the causal efficacy of thoughts, which like computer programs and data are not physical entities.” How Does The World Work: Top-Down or Bottom-Up? - September 29, 2013 Excerpt: To get an handle on how top-down causation works, Ellis focuses on what's in front of all us so much of the time: the computer. Computers are structured systems. They are built as a hierarchy of layers, extending from the wires in the transistors all the way up to the fully assembled machine, gleaming metal case and all. Because of this layering, what happens at the uppermost levels — like you hitting the escape key — flows downward. This action determines the behavior of the lowest levels — like the flow of electrons through the wires — in ways that simply could not be predicted by just knowing the laws of electrons. As Ellis puts it: “Structured systems such as a computer constrain lower level interactions, and thereby paradoxically create new possibilities of complex behavior.” Ellis likes to emphasize how the hierarchy of structure — from fully assembled machine through logic gates, down to transistors — changes everything for the lowly electrons. In particular, it "breaks the symmetry" of their possible behavior since their movements in the computer hardware are very different from what would occur if they were just floating around in a plasma blob in space. But the hardware, of course, is just one piece of the puzzle. This is where things get interesting. As Ellis explains: “Hardware is only causally effective because of the software which animates it: by itself hardware can do nothing. Both hardware and software are hierarchically structured with the higher level logic driving the lower level events.” In other words, it's software at the top level of structure that determines how the electrons at the bottom level flow. Hitting escape while running Word moves the electrons in the wires in different ways than hitting escape does when running Photoshop. This is causation flowing from top to bottom. For Ellis, anything producing causes is real in the most basic sense of the word. Thus the software, which is not physical like the electrons, is just as real as those electrons. As Ellis puts it: “Hence, although they are the ultimate in algorithmic causation as characterized so precisely by Turing, digital computers embody and demonstrate the causal efficacy of non-physical entities. The physics allows this; it does not control what takes place. Computers exemplify the emergence of new kinds of causation out of the underlying physics, not implied by physics but rather by the logic of higher-level possibilities. ... A combination of bottom-up causation and contextual affects (top-down influences) enables their complex functioning.” The consequences of this perspective for our view of the mind are straightforward and radical: “The mind is not a physical entity, but it certainly is causally effective: proof is the existence of the computer on which you are reading this text. It could not exist if it had not been designed and manufactured according to someone's plans, thereby proving the causal efficacy of thoughts, which like computer programs and data are not physical entities.” http://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/2013/09/29/225359504/how-does-the-world-work-top-down-or-bottom-upbornagain77
June 4, 2022
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RD@86. Ouch.JHolo
June 4, 2022
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You can keep asking how nature produced this and that..it really does not matter and you know that it does not. The difference between the position of naturalism and ID have one decisive distention. Every component for naturalism is demonstrably real. Whereas the key component for ID is NOT. NO amount of wishful thinking, an no amount of fallacious assumptions is going to change that. “You can’t explain xy with naturalism..so magic is real” That is basically the ID position. ID relies in the existence and interference of some ill-defined God/metaphysical substance/ entity/ force/intelligence/power/ supernatural whatever, not subject to the known laws of physics, that supposingly interacts with the fabric of our reality in ways that have thus far eluded every controlled experiment ever performed in the history of science. That puts your God …sorry, “intelligence” on the same level as magical unicorns. ID proponents consist of three major groups. Moronic clowns like Joe g. here, DI employees who are usually lacking even the tiniest bit of integrity who make a living by telling lies and of course their prey, scientific illiterate, childhood indoctrinated victims of intellectual neglect.Rob Davis
June 4, 2022
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PPS, on the infinite monkeys theorem, wikipedia saw the thumbscrews and chose to admit:
The theorem concerns a thought experiment which cannot be fully carried out in practice, since it is predicted to require prohibitive amounts of time and resources. Nonetheless, it has inspired efforts in finite random text generation. One computer program run by Dan Oliver of Scottsdale, Arizona, according to an article in The New Yorker, came up with a result on 4 August 2004: After the group had worked for 42,162,500,000 billion billion monkey-years, one of the "monkeys" typed, "VALENTINE. Cease toIdor:eFLP0FRjWK78aXzVOwm)-‘;8.t" The first 19 letters of this sequence can be found in "The Two Gentlemen of Verona". Other teams have reproduced 18 characters from "Timon of Athens", 17 from "Troilus and Cressida", and 16 from "Richard II".[27] A website entitled The Monkey Shakespeare Simulator, launched on 1 July 2003, contained a Java applet that simulated a large population of monkeys typing randomly, with the stated intention of seeing how long it takes the virtual monkeys to produce a complete Shakespearean play from beginning to end. For example, it produced this partial line from Henry IV, Part 2, reporting that it took "2,737,850 million billion billion billion monkey-years" to reach 24 matching characters: RUMOUR. Open your ears; 9r"5j5&?OWTY Z0d
A mere factor of 10^100 shy of the lower end of the FSCO/I threshold range.kairosfocus
June 3, 2022
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RD, 65: First, no gigo limited computation on a substrate -- a dynamic-stochastic, cause effect system not a ground consequent reasoning entity -- is free enough to be rational, so to warrant and to know. Consequently, your computationalist materialism is self referentially incoherent, as was pointed out by Haldane before either of us was born: it would destroy the credibility of the knowledge that it claims to be. Contrary to your impositions, the fact that we self evidently are rational and can warrant and know is itself excellent reason to infer that materialism is falsified. Next, we do have a framework, first, the Smith two-tier cybernetic loop controller, https://uncommondescent.com/atheism/reference-the-smith-model-an-architecture-for-cybernetics-and-mind-body-free-will-determinism-compatibilism-analysis/ in which there is a higher order supervisory controller that influences the loop. A likely candidate is quantum influence. In that context, we see the relevance of an oracle machine, an extension of the Turing controller that in one step issues decisions once the system enters an ask state, based on its own resources that are not an expression of the Turing model. This outperforms a Turing device and of course is highly relevant to the Smith Model. For example, Wikipedia is forced to confess:
An oracle machine can be conceived as a Turing machine connected to an oracle. The oracle, in this context, is an entity capable of solving some problem, which for example may be a decision problem or a function problem. The problem does not have to be computable; the oracle is not assumed to be a Turing machine or computer program. The oracle is simply a "black box" that is able to produce a solution for any instance of a given computational problem: A decision problem is represented as a set A of natural numbers (or strings). An instance of the problem is an arbitrary natural number (or string). The solution to the instance is "YES" if the number (string) is in the set, and "NO" otherwise. A function problem is represented by a function f from natural numbers (or strings) to natural numbers (or strings). An instance of the problem is an input x for f. The solution is the value f(x). An oracle machine can perform all of the usual operations of a Turing machine, and can also query the oracle to obtain a solution to any instance of the computational problem for that oracle. For example, if the problem is a decision problem for a set A of natural numbers, the oracle machine supplies the oracle with a natural number, and the oracle responds with "yes" or "no" stating whether that number is an element of A.
So, we have a framework for going beyond the first level Turing machine. This has room for a view of reality in which the necessary being root of reality can design a world fine tuned for C chem, aqueous medium, cell based, information and cybernetic system rich life. So the notion that one cannot bridge to physics is moot, and onward to the root of the tree of life. Where the functionally specific complex organisation and/or associated information [FSCO/I] in cell based life points to intelligently directed oracular controlled configuration as best explanation. Design is there from the root, OoL. Oo Body Plans [OoBP] then becomes a free corollary, as origin of a body plan hosting responsible rational freedom. KF PS, Haldane, framed as a skeletal argument:
"It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For
if [p:] my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain [–> taking in DNA, epigenetics and matters of computer organisation, programming and dynamic-stochastic processes; notice, "my brain," i.e. self referential] ______________________________ [ THEN] [q:] I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. [--> indeed, blindly mechanical computation is not in itself a rational process, the only rationality is the canned rationality of the programmer, where survival-filtered lucky noise is not a credible programmer, note the functionally specific, highly complex organised information rich code and algorithms in D/RNA, i.e. language and goal directed stepwise process . . . an observationally validated adequate source for such is _____ ?] [Corollary 1:] They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence [Corollary 2:] I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. [--> grand, self-referential delusion, utterly absurd self-falsifying incoherence] [Implied, Corollary 3: Reason and rationality collapse in a grand delusion, including of course general, philosophical, logical, ontological and moral knowledge; reductio ad absurdum, a FAILED, and FALSE, intellectually futile and bankrupt, ruinously absurd system of thought.]
In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” ["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209. Cf. here on (and esp here) on the self-refutation by self-falsifying self referential incoherence and on linked amorality.]
kairosfocus
June 3, 2022
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RD
There in nothing special about a mind in naturalistic terms…interacting matter. Like the rest of our reality.
Nothing special. That's just the marketing campaign for irrational nihilism. You're killing your own credibility, self-worth and reason for existence. Is there some reason anyone should care about what you have to say? ID points to meaning and purposeful design.
All our minds, no matter what beliefs they hold, are housed in material brains, which can be boiled down to the particles and their interactions as they are described in the Standard Model of Physics.
As pathetic and tragic as that belief-system is, it's also good to see in some ways. There are anti-IDists here who deny that materialists like you exist any more. But we've got it right here. Everything is "boiled down" to physics. There's really no need even for biology.Silver Asiatic
June 3, 2022
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RD
No outcome of anyOrigin Of Information experiment is going to add credibility to this supposed “intelligence” of your ID fantasy.
A deceptive answer that clearly shows you've got nothing. The challenge is for you to back up your claim and produce a coded information system (sender, translator, receiver, functional-logic based response) minus intelligence. You know you can't do it. But instead of just admitting the failure, you turn it around and attack intelligence itself, which is the only means capable of producing the result. Why not just admit that?Silver Asiatic
June 3, 2022
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RD
...is just the attempt to solve one mystery ...
After all the bluster, that part is right. Materialism cannot penetrate the mystery of the origins of anything. Some of the anti-IDists here have already admitted that, and their "attempt to solve" the mystery is to provide the conclusion "we don't know". That basically works for everything. ID, on the other hand, takes what we do know and has discovered that it applies to observations we have throughout nature. ID opens up understanding of reality where materialism closed it down (as any blind, unintelligent thing would do).Silver Asiatic
June 3, 2022
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only viable scientific theory which attempts to explain what we observe that makes testable predictions
And all predictions have failed. Darwin’s ideas are all self refuting especially natural selection. Natural selection while real by definition can only lead to very minor changes. Certainly not to a new species.jerry
June 3, 2022
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The bottom line is however poor, unbelievable or laughable evolution proponents find Intelligent Design, Intelligent Design is the only viable scientific concept which attempts to explain what we observe that makes testable predictions. There is no testable scientific hypothesis of evolution by means of blind and mindless processesET
June 3, 2022
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kairosfocus- "Rob Davis" isn't interested in learning about ID nor science.ET
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All our minds, no matter what beliefs they hold, are housed in material brains, which can be boiled down to the particles and their interactions as they are described in the Standard Model of Physics.
Just because you can say it doesn't make it so. How does evolution by means of blind and mindless processes even account for brains, seeing they can't even produce eukaryotes?ET
June 3, 2022
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Earth to Fred- There isn't any scientific theory of evolution. The testable hypothesis for ID is as follows: 1) High information content (or specified complexity) and irreducible complexity constitute strong indicators or hallmarks of (past) intelligent design. 2) Biological systems have a high information content (or specified complexity) and utilize subsystems that manifest irreducible complexity. 3) Naturalistic mechanisms or undirected causes do not suffice to explain the origin of information (specified complexity) or irreducible complexity. 4) Therefore, intelligent design constitutes the best explanations for the origin of information and irreducible complexity in biological systems. And that is by far more than evolution by means of blind and mindless processes can muster. Fred Hickson is either willfully ignorant, stupid or blatantly dishonest.ET
June 3, 2022
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The bottom line is however poor, unbelievable or laughable ID proponents find evolutionary theory, evolutionary theory is the only viable scientific theory which attempts to explain what we observe that makes testable predictions. There is no testable scientific hypothesis of "Intelligent Design".Fred Hickson
June 3, 2022
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"Rob Davis" is confused. There is no way that evolution by means of blind and mindless process could produce a nested hierarchy. All of the required transitional forms would ruin any and all attempts at making nice, distinct groupings. Evolution by means of blind and mindless processes can't account for the existence of eukaryotes. You lose, timmy. All you have is your ignorance and gullibility.ET
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There isn't any evidence that nature produced itself. There isn't any evidence that nature produced the laws that govern it. There isn't any evidence that nature can produce coded information processing systems and living organisms are ruled by them. Given starting populations of prokaryotes there isn't any naturalistic process capable of producing eukaryotes. Endosymbiosis doesn't help as we have learned from the new article on the topic. So evos don't have anything. No evidence. No science. Just pure belligerence.ET
June 3, 2022
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Intelligent Design's concepts on evolution are used in the form of genetic algorithms, which are goal-oriented programs that utilize targeted searches to solve problems. No one uses evolution by means of blind and mindless processes for anything. It is useless and worthlessET
June 3, 2022
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"Rob Davis" is a scientifically illiterate coward. It couldn't find evidentiary support for evolution by means of blind and mindless processes if its life depended on it.ET
June 3, 2022
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Bob O'H:
Any gene duplication event increases information.
Two copies of the same thing does not increase information.ET
June 3, 2022
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Rob, so you have collected the 10 million dollar prize and falsified ID by showing, as you claimed, “Nature creates complexity and with it, information all the time via the laws of nature,”? Or are you now backing off your claim that the laws of nature can create coded information? Fame, fortune, and a Nobel prize, awaits your proof that the laws of nature can create coded informationbornagain77
June 3, 2022
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@Bornagain77, Bill... Regarding the "Evolution 2.0 prize" No outcome of anyOrigin Of Information experiment is going to add credibility to this supposed "intelligence" of your ID fantasy. That's not how this works. Until it’s existence is demonstrated you got nothing. Which has not happened yet and given that you lack a method to do so, probably never will happen. A fallacious assumption is not a replacement for a demonstrable correaltion with reality. You can’t just wish things into existence. Provoking God/some intelligence, is just the attempt to solve one mystery by appealing to another one.Rob Davis
June 3, 2022
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Rob Davis All our minds, no matter what beliefs they hold, are housed in material brains, which can be boiled down to the particles and their interactions as they are described in the Standard Model of Physics. There in nothing special about a mind in naturalistic terms…interacting matter.
To say that atoms are producing the mind it's like saying that wood produce books. Pages from books are made from cellulose and ink . Do cellulose and ink produce letters by themselves? If yes ,tell us what physical law made them to create letters.Lieutenant Commander Data
June 3, 2022
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“And since Intelligent Design is mathematically based upon the ‘law of conservation of information’, that makes Intelligent Design very much testable and potentially falsifiable, …” ID is not based on any math. You claim it is, so please show the math that underpins the claim “some non-detectable “Intelligence” is interacting with nature. Answer: There is no such math. The ‘law of conservation of information’ is one of Dembski’s Brainfarts that ” Information does not appear out of nowhere, but can always be traced to a prior source”. Where he again acts as if information is some kind of entity, a magic ingredient that needs to be added to matter for it to work properly. When in reality it is nothing but a particular arrangement or sequence of particles and their interactions. “that makes Intelligent Design very much testable and potentially falsifiable” With what method do you propose we demonstrate a correaltion between this “intelligence” and reality? Please elaborate! Answer: There is none Name one prediction ID makes that is falsifiable by an empirical evidence and how you plan to produce this evidence. Please elaborate! Answer: There is none ID is usless nonsense.Rob Davis
June 3, 2022
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"You can’t explain mind in terms of physical laws. End of story." All our minds, no matter what beliefs they hold, are housed in material brains, which can be boiled down to the particles and their interactions as they are described in the Standard Model of Physics. There in nothing special about a mind in naturalistic terms...interacting matter. Like the rest of our reality. ID on the other hand explains NOTHING. It claims a fantasy is interacting with nature. A fantsay solely based on a fallacious assumtion.Rob Davis
June 3, 2022
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03:28 AM
3
03
28
AM
PDT
1 28 29 30 31 32 33

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