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At Evolution News: The Standard Story of Human Evolution: A Critical Look

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Casey Luskin writes:

Despite disagreements, there is a standard story of human evolution that is retold in countless textbooks, news media articles, and documentaries. Indeed, virtually all the scientists I am citing here accept some evolutionary account of human origins, albeit flawed. 

Starting with the early hominins and moving through the australopithecines, and then into the genus Homo, I will review the fossil evidence and assess whether it supports this standard account of human evolution. As we shall see, the evidence — or lack thereof — often contradicts this evolutionary story.

Photo: Ardipithecus ramidus, by Tiia Monto, CC BY-SA 3.0 , via Wikimedia Commons.

Early Hominins

In 2015, two leading paleoanthropologists reviewed the fossil evidence regarding human evolution in a prestigious scientific volume titled Macroevolution. They acknowledged the “dearth of unambiguous evidence for ancestor-descendant lineages,” and admitted, 

[T]he evolutionary sequence for the majority of hominin lineages is unknown. Most hominin taxa, particularly early hominins, have no obvious ancestors, and in most cases ancestor-descendant sequences (fossil time series) cannot be reliably constructed.1

Nevertheless, numerous theories have been promoted about early hominins and their ancestral relationships to humans.

One leading fossil is described below:

Ardipithecus ramidus: Irish Stew or Breakthrough of the Year?

In 2009, Science announced the long-awaited publication of details about Ardipithecus ramidus (pictured above), a would-be hominin fossil that lived about 4.4 million years ago (mya). Expectations mounted after its discoverer, UC Berkeley paleoanthropologist Tim White, promised a “phenomenal individual” that would be the “Rosetta stone for understanding bipedalism.”17 The media eagerly employed the hominin they affectionately dubbed Ardi to evangelize the public for Darwin.

Discovery Channel ran the headline “‘Ardi,’ Oldest Human Ancestor, Unveiled,” and quoted White calling Ardi “as close as we have ever come to finding the last common ancestor of chimpanzees and humans.”18 The Associated Press declared, “World’s Oldest Human-Linked Skeleton Found,” and stated that “the new find provides evidence that chimps and humans evolved from some long-ago common ancestor.”19 Science named Ardi the “breakthrough of the year” for 2009,20 and introduced her with the headline, “A New Kind of Ancestor: Ardipithecus Unveiled.”21

Calling Ardi “new” may have been a poor word choice, for it was discovered in the early 1990s. Why did it take some 15 years to publish the analyses? A 2002 article in Science explains the bones were “soft,” “crushed,” “squished,” and “chalky.”22 Later reports similarly acknowledged that “portions of Ardi’s skeleton were found crushed nearly to smithereens and needed extensive digital reconstruction,” including the pelvis, which “looked like an Irish stew.”23

Claims about bipedal locomotion require accurate measurements of the precise shapes of key bones (like the pelvis). Can one trust declarations of a “Rosetta stone for understanding bipedalism” when Ardi was “crushed to smithereens”? Science quoted various paleoanthropologists who were “skeptical that the crushed pelvis really shows the anatomical details needed to demonstrate bipedality.”24

Even some who accepted Ardi’s reconstructions weren’t satisfied that the fossil was a bipedal human ancestor. Primatologist Esteban Sarmiento concluded in Science that “[a]ll of the Ar. ramidus bipedal characters cited also serve the mechanical requisites of quadrupedality, and in the case of Ar. ramidus foot-segment proportions, find their closest functional analog to those of gorillas, a terrestrial or semiterrestrial quadruped and not a facultative or habitual biped.”25 Bernard Wood questioned whether Ardi’s postcranial skeleton qualified it as a hominin,26 and co-wrote in Nature that if “Ardipithecus is assumed to be a hominin,” then it had “remarkably high levels of homoplasy [similarity] among extant great apes.”27 A 2021 study found that Ardi’s hands were well-suited for climbing and swinging in trees, and for knuckle-walking, giving it a chimp-like mode of locomotion.28 In other words, Ardi had ape-like characteristics which, if we set aside the preferences of Ardi’s promoters, should imply a closer relationship to apes than to humans. As the authors of the Nature article stated, Ardi’s “being a human ancestor is by no means the simplest, or most parsimonious explanation.”29Sarmiento even observed that Ardi had characteristics different from both humans and African apes, such as its unfused jaw joint, which ought to remove her far from human ancestry.30

Whatever Ardi was, everyone agrees the fossils was initially badly crushed and needed extensive reconstruction. No doubt this debate will continue, but are we obligated to accept the “human ancestor” position promoted by Ardi’s discoverers in the media? Sarmiento doesn’t think so. According Time magazine, he “regards the hype around Ardi to have been overblown.”31

Full article at Evolution News.

Notes

  1. Bernard Wood and Mark Grabowski, “Macroevolution in and around the Hominin Clade,” Macroevolution: Explanation, Interpretation, and Evidence, eds. Serrelli Emanuele and Nathalie Gontier (Heidelberg, Germany: Springer, 2015), 347-376.
  2. Michel Brunet et al., “Sahelanthropus or ‘Sahelpithecus’?,” Nature 419 (October 10, 2002), 582.
  3. Michel Brunet et al., “A new hominid from the Upper Miocene of Chad, Central Africa,” Nature 418 (July 11, 2002), 145-151. See also Michel Brunet et al., “New material of the earliest hominid from the Upper Miocene of Chad,” Nature 434 (April 7, 2005), 752-755. 
  4. Smithsonian Natural Museum of Natural History, “Sahelanthropus tchadensis,” https://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/human-fossils/species/sahelanthropus-tchadensis (accessed November 30, 2020).
  5. “Skull Find Sparks Controversy,” BBC News (July 12, 2002), http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2125244.stm (accessed October 26, 2020).
  6. Milford Wolpoff et al., “Sahelanthropus or ‘Sahelpithecus’?” Nature 419 (October 10, 2002), 581-582.
  7. Roberto Macchiarelli et al., “Nature and relationships of Sahelanthropus tchadensis,” Journal of Human Evolution 149 (2020), 102898.
  8. Macchiarelli et al., “Nature and relationships of Sahelanthropus tchadensis.”
  9. Madelaine Böhme, quoted in Michael Marshall, “Our supposed earliest human relative may have walked on four legs,” New Scientist (November 18, 2020), https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24833093-600-our-supposed-earliest-human-relative-may-have-walked-on-four-legs/ (accessed November 30, 2020).
  10. Bob Yirka, “Study of partial left femur suggests Sahelanthropus tchadensis was not a hominin after all,” Phys.org (November 24, 2020), https://phys.org/news/2020-11-partial-left-femur-sahelanthropus-tchadensis.html (accessed November 30, 2020).
  11. Potts and Sloan, What Does It Mean to Be Human?, 38.
  12. John Noble Wilford, “Fossils May Be Earliest Human Link,” New York Times (July 12, 2001), http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/12/world/fossils-may-be-earliest-human-link.html (accessed October 26, 2020).
  13. John Noble Wilford, “On the Trail of a Few More Ancestors,” New York Times (April 8, 2001), http://www.nytimes.com/2001/04/08/world/on-the-trail-of-a-few-more-ancestors.html (accessed October 26, 2020).
  14. Leslie Aiello and Mark Collard, “Our Newest Oldest Ancestor?” Nature 410 (March 29, 2001), 526-527.
  15. K. Galik et al., “External and Internal Morphology of the BAR 1002’00 Orrorin tugenensis Femur,” Science 305 (September 3, 2004), 1450-1453.
  16. Sarmiento, Sawyer, and Milner, The Last Human, 35.
  17. Tim White, quoted in Ann Gibbons, “In Search of the First Hominids,” Science 295 (February 15, 2002), 1214-1219.
  18. Jennifer Viegas, “‘Ardi,’ Oldest Human Ancestor, Unveiled,” Discovery News (October 1, 2009), https://web.archive.org/web/20110613073934/http://news.discovery.com/history/ardi-human-ancestor.html (accessed October 26, 2020).
  19. Randolph Schmid, “World’s Oldest Human-Linked Skeleton Found,” NBC News (October 1, 2009), https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna33110809 (accessed October 26, 2020). 
  20. Ann Gibbons, “Breakthrough of the Year: Ardipithecus ramidus,” Science 326 (December 18, 2009), 1598-1599.
  21. Gibbons, “New Kind of Ancestor,” 36-40.
  22. White, quoted in Gibbons, “In Search of the First Hominids,” 1214-1219, 1215-1216.
  23. Michael Lemonick and Andrea Dorfman, “Ardi Is a New Piece for the Evolution Puzzle,” Time (October 1, 2009), http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1927289,00.html (accessed October 26, 2020).
  24. Gibbons, “New Kind of Ancestor,” 36-40, 39.
  25. Esteban Sarmiento, “Comment on the Paleobiology and Classification of Ardipithecus ramidus,” Science 328 (May 28, 2010), 1105b.
  26. Gibbons, “New Kind of Ancestor,” 36-40.
  27. Bernard Wood and Terry Harrison, “The Evolutionary Context of the First Hominins,” Nature 470 (February 17, 2011), 347-352.
  28. Thomas C. Prang, Kristen Ramirez, Mark Grabowski, and Scott A. Williams, “Ardipithecus hand provides evidence that humans and chimpanzees evolved from an ancestor with suspensory adaptations,” Science Advances 7 (February 24, 2021), eabf2474.
  29. New York University, “Fossils may look like human bones: Biological anthropologists question claims for human ancestry,” ScienceDaily (February 16, 2011), https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/02/110216132034.htm (accessed October 26, 2020).
  30. See Eben Harrell, “Ardi: The Human Ancestor Who Wasn’t?,” Time (May 27, 2010), http://content.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1992115,00.html (accessed October 26, 2020).
  31. Harrell, “Ardi: The Human Ancestor Who Wasn’t?”
Comments
@94:
So when Evolution is discussed within your spheres of communication, you spend a few moments clarifying what it is you mean when you use the term?
Yes, of course. @96
Thousands before you repeated the same nonsense you do. All you darwinists are made in the same factory? because you seem to have installed the same faulty operating system : illogical ideas , just-so stories , ad-hominem, rinse and repeat.
Well, it's certainly true that thousands of people before me have also learned the basic principles of scientific reasoning.PyrrhoManiac1
October 28, 2022
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The National Academy of Sciences attempts to defend evolution and knock down ID. https://www.discovery.org/a/4386/relatd
October 28, 2022
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Yes, the Darwinist Assembly Factory. All get the same programming.relatd
October 28, 2022
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@PyrrhoManiac1 : Thousands before you repeated the same nonsense you do. All you darwinists are made in the same factory? because you seem to have installed the same faulty operating system : illogical ideas , just-so stories , ad-hominem, rinse and repeat.
Bornagain77 It is highly disingenuous for Darwinists to try to tack the word “evolutionary’ onto the word ‘biology’ every chance that they get, as if evolution has had anything whatsoever to do with the existence of biology, much less the existence of biological science itself.
:) We must understand them ,they have no scientific evidences of darwinian evolution but they have to push the agenda with the only method they have left...empty words: "Evolution is a fact" , "evolutionary" biology , evolutionary this ,evolutionary that.whistler
October 28, 2022
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What does the theory of evolution have to do with the science of biology?
"In fact, over the last 100 years, almost all of biology has proceeded independent of evolution, except evolutionary biology itself. Molecular biology, biochemistry, and physiology, have not taken evolution into account at all." - Marc Kirschner, founding chair of the Department of Systems Biology at Harvard Medical School, Boston Globe, Oct. 23, 2005 "While the great majority of biologists would probably agree with Theodosius Dobzhansky’s dictum that “Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution”, most can conduct their work quite happily without particular reference to evolutionary ideas. Evolution would appear to be the indispensable unifying idea and, at the same time, a highly superflous one.” - Adam S. Wilkins, editor of the journal BioEssays, Introduction to "Evolutionary Processes" - (2000). "Biologists must constantly keep in mind that what they see was not designed, but rather evolved. It might be thought, therefore, that evolutionary arguments would play a large part in guiding biological research, but this is far from the case." - Francis Crick - What Mad Pursuit (1988)
As the late Philip Skell stated in an article entitled “Why Do We Invoke Darwin?”, “I even queried biologists working in areas where one would expect the Darwinian paradigm to have most benefited research, such as the emergence of resistance to antibiotics and pesticides. Here, as elsewhere, I found that Darwin’s theory had provided no discernible guidance, but was brought in, after the breakthroughs, as an interesting narrative gloss.”
Why Do We Invoke Darwin? – 2005 Excerpt: “Certainly, my own research with antibiotics during World War II received no guidance from insights provided by Darwinian evolution. Nor did Alexander Fleming’s discovery of bacterial inhibition by penicillin. I recently asked more than 70 eminent researchers if they would have done their work differently if they had thought Darwin’s theory was wrong. The responses were all the same: No. I also examined the outstanding biodiscoveries of the past century: the discovery of the double helix; the characterization of the ribosome; the mapping of genomes; research on medications and drug reactions; improvements in food production and sanitation; the development of new surgeries; and others. I even queried biologists working in areas where one would expect the Darwinian paradigm to have most benefited research, such as the emergence of resistance to antibiotics and pesticides. Here, as elsewhere, I found that Darwin’s theory had provided no discernible guidance, but was brought in, after the breakthroughs, as an interesting narrative gloss. In the peer-reviewed literature, the word “evolution” often occurs as a sort of coda to academic papers in experimental biology. Is the term integral or superfluous to the substance of these papers? To find out, I substituted for “evolution” some other word – “Buddhism,” “Aztec cosmology,” or even “creationism.” I found that the substitution never touched the paper’s core. This did not surprise me. From my conversations with leading researchers it had became clear that modern experimental biology gains its strength from the availability of new instruments and methodologies, not from an immersion in historical biology.,,, Darwinian evolution – whatever its other virtues – does not provide a fruitful heuristic (guiding principle) in experimental biology.” Philip S. Skell – (the late) Emeritus Evan Pugh Professor at Pennsylvania State University, and a member of the National Academy of Sciences. http://www.discovery.org/a/2816
Darwinists simply have no experimental evidence whatsoever that any biological system could have arisen by unguided Darwinian processes. As biochemist Franklin Harold honestly admitted in 2005, “there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical or cellular system, only a variety of wishful speculations.”
PNAS Paper Admits Understanding the Origin of Cellular Features Is a “Glaring Gap” in Evolutionary Biology – Casey Luskin – December 10, 2014 Excerpt: In 2001, biochemist Franklin Harold wrote in an Oxford University Press monograph that “there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical or cellular system, only a variety of wishful speculations.” Last month, a new paper in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, “Evolutionary cell biology: Two origins, one objective,” admitted much the same thing.,,, ,,,”a full mechanistic understanding of evolutionary processes will never be achieved without an elucidation of how cellular features become established and modified.” Though they don’t put it quite as bluntly as Franklin Harold, this paper’s message is no less potent: modern evolutionary biology lacks explanations for the origin of molecular machines. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/12/pnas_paper_admi091901.html
Given to abject failure of Darwinian evolutionists to be able to demonstrate the origin of even a single biological system, (or even a single protein), then it is highly disingenuous for Darwinists to try to tack the word “evolutionary’ onto the word 'biology' every chance that they get, as if evolution has had anything whatsoever to do with the existence of biology, much less the existence of biological science itself.bornagain77
October 28, 2022
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"Evolution is an umbrella term for lots of different processes and theories about those processes." PM1, So when Evolution is discussed within your spheres of communication, you spend a few moments clarifying what it is you mean when you use the term? Andrewasauber
October 28, 2022
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Though I'm much more interested in whether Relatd thinks that biology can be a science at all, since it would seem that on their view, the choice of basic conceptual framework in which to do biology is determined by whether or not one believes in God, and that seems to be very different from the situation in chemistry or physics.PyrrhoManiac1
October 28, 2022
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@91
Well, he asked you to provide evidence for Evolution, which is an extremely scientific and informationally robust term, so what are you confused about?
Well, for starters, they* could have clarified if they were requesting evidence of microevolution or macroevolution, and if they were requesting evidence of macroevolution, if they were requesting evidence of speciation or evidence of some higher-taxa change, e.g. evolution at the level of genera or above. Evolution is an umbrella term for lots of different processes and theories about those processes. If related isn't going to be clear about what they mean and responds with snark at a sincere request for clarification, that's not my problem. * I use "they" for all online users except in cases when a specific gender can be attributed to a user based on the handle they've chosen or the user has indicated their gender to me.PyrrhoManiac1
October 28, 2022
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"If you refuse to be clear about what you’re saying" PM1, Well, he asked you to provide evidence for Evolution, which is an extremely scientific and informationally robust term, so what are you confused about? Andrewasauber
October 28, 2022
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@89
The usual dodge. What was the question? I don’t understand. Repeat ad nauseum and I do mean nauseum.
If you refuse to be clear about what you're saying, it's not someone else's fault that they don't understand you.PyrrhoManiac1
October 28, 2022
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PM1, The usual dodge. What was the question? I don't understand. Repeat ad nauseum and I do mean nauseum.relatd
October 28, 2022
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87:
Provide some real, actual evidence for evolution.
Are you asking me to conduct an experiment of my own and report back? Or am I permitted to cite the research done by others? If the former, I have some strange things growing in the back of my fridge but let's not talk about those. If the latter, what are you asking for? Evidence of speciation? If I were to cite research showing that speciation is close-to-observable, and that we know something about the genetic changes that led to the emergence of new species, would that be sufficient?PyrrhoManiac1
October 28, 2022
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PM1 at 86, Provide some real, actual evidence for evolution.relatd
October 28, 2022
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Let’s face it. There are two ONLY two sides here. The atheist and the Christian. And the arguments revolve around faith, not science.
Well, "Christians" is only 1/3 of the world's religions, but for some reason that doesn't matter. Does this dualism of atheist/Christian correspond to Darwinism/ID, in your view? So all atheists are Darwinists and all Christians are intelligent design advocates? If Darwinism and intelligent design are the only two comprehensive frameworks in which one can do biology, and if the choice between them is a matter of faith, then biology rests on faith. That seems to make biology really different from physics or chemistry, which don't rest on faith in the same way (or do they?). Perhaps biology isn't a real science at all, since the choice of framework in which one does biology is decided on faith, and not on the basis of evidence.PyrrhoManiac1
October 28, 2022
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"Asuaber thinks that if no one offers any objections then what was said must be true." JVL, Not at all. Truth is Truth no matter who objects or doesn't object. I just thought it was interesting that my particular comment drew some responses, but no objections. Until the 9pm Troll Feeding. Andrewasauber
October 28, 2022
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JVL at 83, Ba77's practices? He can defend himself. I won't answer the other so-called questions because they aren't questions. You will continue to promote Darwinism. It's your job, your mission. And quit calling it a "point of view" as if one side (only) is right and the other wrong. Both sides can't be right. You will ignore that, you can't afford not to.relatd
October 28, 2022
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Relatd: I have every objection to everything you say. You’re just here to promote bad arguments and bad reasoning; i.e. if you just read THESE books and/or articles and you will be automatically converted to the one true faith – Darwinism. You could say the same thing about reading Dr Behe's books or Dr Dembski's books. That's not an argument. I spend time on this site to learn what the people I disagree with think and why so that I DON'T fall into the fallacy you're suggesting I have succumbed to. Let’s face it. There are two ONLY two sides here. The atheist and the Christian. And the arguments revolve around faith, not science. The “up to date” line is CRAP. Darwinism wasn’t true 10 or 20 years ago? So cut the CRAP. I disagree with you but it's interesting you are playing the 'it's all about faith' card. 'Darwinism' has been widely established and supported for decades. Does this mean you are giving up the 'ID is science' line? And, please note, you still haven't chosen to defend Bornagain77's practices. For some reason. Are you going to?JVL
October 28, 2022
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JVL at 81, I have every objection to everything you say. You're just here to promote bad arguments and bad reasoning; i.e. if you just read THESE books and/or articles and you will be automatically converted to the one true faith - Darwinism. Let's face it. There are two ONLY two sides here. The atheist and the Christian. And the arguments revolve around faith, not science. The "up to date" line is CRAP. Darwinism wasn't true 10 or 20 years ago? So cut the CRAP.relatd
October 28, 2022
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Relatd: Here we have JVL as judge, jury and executioner. Since you didn't answer my questions does that mean you have no objections to them? Asuaber thinks that if no one offers any objections then what was said must be true. Right? Sorry Bornagain77, Asauber thinks you're guilty of not reading your sources or keeping up with your links. Don't shout at me, it's not my logic. Aside from that Relatd didn't definitely say he thought Bornagain77 did thoroughly read and understand his sources nor did he offer an opinion as to whether or not his links are kept up-to-date.JVL
October 28, 2022
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JVL at 79. Here we have JVL as judge, jury and executioner. 'Ba77, you have been charged with the following crimes: Quote-mining and not reading your own sources thoroughly. Worse, you have departed from the true faith - Darwinism. Before you plead, allow this court to extend its mercy towards you. Not only are we magnanimous but we are good. So either mend your ways or face the Darwinist Inquisition.'relatd
October 28, 2022
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Relatd: Fair warning: I have a sock launcher aimed in your direction. Don’t make me use it. Uh huh. I'm not holding my breath in anticipation of your awesome display of editorial power. How often do you think BornAgain77 actually reads the entire source material he quotes from? How often do you think he checks his database to see which links are still active?JVL
October 28, 2022
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Ba77, Just a point about the pro-evolution troops stationed here. Heads you lose, tails you lose. Evolution makes a lot of changes except when it doesn't. Evolution is fast except when it's slow. As a storytelling mechanism for FICTION, it is unsurpassed, except by its promoters who are impervious to facts.relatd
October 28, 2022
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JVL at 56, I will huff and puff and blow your house down. Clearly, as Ba77 has written on more than a few occasions, you refuse to recognize facts. Too bad. Fair warning: I have a sock launcher aimed in your direction. Don't make me use it.relatd
October 28, 2022
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Bornagain77: so you got nothing other than the usual hand-waving denial on your part, and some token cheerleading from your fellow troll JVL claiming that you guys are not constantly lying through your teeth.. That's rich coming from someone who has (probably) never read any of the books or articles we have suggested you read and (I suspect) hasn't even read many of the sources you quote-mine. In fact, as I showed a week or two ago, I caught you linking to a couple of things you clearly hadn't read 'cause you said the thing at the end of the link said one thing when it didn't. You don't 'do' science by creating a huge database of what you consider damning quotes, grouped by topic, and then copy-and-paste them in a blog discussion. Science isn't about how many references or foot notes you can generate. You actually have to understand the work you are linking to otherwise you just look like a fool. Or a knave. How often do you go through your database and makes sure the links are a) actually linking to something with the quote you've attached and b) still active? Or is it, since you know very few people (especially ID supporters) actually look at the links, that you don't bother making sure everything is accurate and up-to-date? You frequently do link to sources that are 10 or 20 years old. I am quite satisfied to let my comments stand on their own merit for unbiased readers (if there be any here on UD) Are you saying you aren't unbiased? Is Kairosfocus unbiased? How about Asauber? Or Jerry? Or ET (whose has been strangely absent recently)? Or UprightBiPed? Querius? Do you read any posts by anyone other than yourself and those responding to you? I can tell when you haven't got a decent honest answer; it's when you pull the "I'm quite satisfied to let my comments stand" line. You can't truthfully answer what has been said so you walk away.JVL
October 28, 2022
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I am quite satisfied to let my comments stand on their own merit for unbiased readers (if there be any here on UD)
On their own merit? Hmm. Though I grant that some of your comments can be both good and original. Unfortunately the good parts are not original and the original parts are not good. Hat-tip to who said that firstAlan Fox
October 28, 2022
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AF, so you got nothing other than the usual hand-waving denial on your part, and some token cheerleading from your fellow troll JVL claiming that you guys are not constantly lying through your teeth.. Pathetic. I am quite satisfied to let my comments stand on their own merit for unbiased readers (if there be any here on UD)bornagain77
October 28, 2022
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Bornagain77: Dawkins’ claim of universality in mind, Let me guess, you haven't even read his book have you? If you had you would know that he qualifies his statements in the same way that Alan Fox has. So either you haven't read his book and are just quote mining from secondary sources which would explain why you didn't know how Dr Dawkins actually characterises genomics. Which just makes you look like a foolish copy-and-paste acolyte. Or you have read his book and are intentionally leaving out the bits that run contrary to what you are saying. Which makes you a knave. So, fool or knave? Which is it?JVL
October 28, 2022
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Asauber: On the other hand, literally everything from the Evolutionist side I’ve heard all my life has been hype or lies, so you have that going for you. That is a lie, a big lie. Trump-level lie. If you keep it big and repeat it some folks will believe it. I’m not seeing anything from you trolls that is bucking that tendency. Another lie. We have pointed you to things that address your queries. YOU choose to not look at them. How can you learn if you refuse to do some reading? But I’m not even sure youse guys understand what I’m saying. I understand what you are saying. And I've spent many, many posts presenting links to information that addresses your queries. You completely blank on all that and now lie and say we haven't made the effort. So, I think what you are really saying is: I'm just going to keep wasting these evo-dopes' time. That's about it isn't it? IF you did want to learn about the actual research and evidence you would check on the things we present to you. But you don't. That's not your purpose at all. Don’t see much of that. I see lots of comments. Evidence is rare. Your choice to ignore the references and suggestions we make. Arguing out of ignorance is bad enough; choosing to stay ignorant and then saying you haven't seen anyone answering your questions is just lying. If you're not aware of that then you're a fool. If you are then you're a knave. Which are you?JVL
October 28, 2022
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Phil, what you quote Dawkins as saying is correct. No idea why you think that has any bearing on the point I'm making about the near-universality of the genetic code. Also I acknowledge and embrace the insights provided by the minor variations in the genetic code found in some bacteria. They hint at evolutionary pathways to the current code.Alan Fox
October 28, 2022
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AF 55: "the genetic code, with the exception of a few though significant variations among bacteria, is universal. Universal!" So AF, the universality of the genetic code (save for some 'minor' exceptions),
There are now many variants of the “universal” genetic code - June 13, 2018 Excerpt: – From Theistic Evolution (2017): “Perhaps the most common argument for universal common ancestry encountered by students in college-level biology textbooks is the universality of the genetic code- the claim that all life uses the same nucleotide triplets to encode the same amino acids. 5° However, the genetic code is not universal; many variants in the genetic code are known among various organisms. note 51 [51 For a list of known variants to the standard genetic code, see Andrzej (Anjay) Elzanowski and Jim Ostell, “The Genetic Codes,” Taxonomy Browser, National Center for Biotechnology Information (NCB!), accessed October 25, 2016, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.govfraxonomyltaxonomyhome.htmllindex.cgi?chapter=cgencodes. See also Robin D. Knight, Stephen J. Freeland and Laura F. Landweber, “Rewiring the Keyboard: Evolvability of the Genetic Code,” Nature Reviews Genetics 2 (January 2001): 49- 58.]” https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/there-are-now-many-variants-of-the-universal-genetic-code/ The Genetic Codes http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/Taxonomy/Utils/wprintgc.cgi?mode=c
So AF, the universality of the genetic code (save for some 'minor' exceptions), not any specific genetic similarity/dissimilarity between organisms per se, is what makes universal common decent a slam dunk in your book? And you see no problem with this line of reasoning for Darwinian evolution? Really? To point out a few 'minor' problems with your 'reasoning, (as if 'reasoning' were even possible for a Darwinian meat robot (J. Coyne)), number one, unguided material processes cannot account for the origin of any code. In fact, there is a 10 million dollar prize being offered for the first person who can prove that mindless, unguided, material processes can create a 'simple' code.
Artificial Intelligence + Origin of Life Prize, $10 Million USD Where did life and the genetic code come from? Can the answer build superior AI? The #1 mystery in science now has a $10 million prize.,,, What You Must Do to Win The Prize You must arrange for a digital communication system to emerge or self-evolve without "cheating." The diagram below describes the system. Without explicitly designing the system, your experiment must generate an encoder that sends digital code to a decoder. Your system needs to transmit at least five bits of information. (In other words it has to be able to represent 32 states. The genetic code supports 64.) https://www.herox.com/evolution2.0?_ga=2.42946341.1206782091.1666962981-572477031.1666962981
Number 2, even if mindless, unguided, material processes could somehow account for the origin of a 'simple' code, Darwinian processes still could not account for the further 'evolution' of that 'simple' code into the 'optimal' genetic code that is found in life,
“The genetic code’s error-minimization properties are far more dramatic than these (one in a million) results indicate. When the researchers calculated the error-minimization capacity of the one million randomly generated genetic codes, they discovered that the error-minimization values formed a distribution. Researchers estimate the existence of 10^18 possible genetic codes possessing the same type and degree of redundancy as the universal genetic code. All of these codes fall within the error-minimization distribution. This means of 10^18 codes few, if any have an error-minimization capacity that approaches the code found universally throughout nature.” - Fazale Rana - From page 175; 'The Cell’s Design' https://reasons.org/explore/blogs/the-cells-design/read/the-cells-design/2018/10/03/the-optimal-design-of-the-genetic-code Get Out of Jail Free: Playing Games in an RNA World - September 23, 2013 Excerpt: "The genetic code, the mapping of nucleic acid codons to amino acids via a set of tRNA and aminoacylation machinery, is near-universal and near-immutable. In addition, the code is also near-optimal in terms of error minimization," http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/09/you_cant_get_th077021.html
To add insult to injury to AF's line of 'reasoning', the primary reason why the further 'evolution' of a 'simple' code into the 'optimal' genetic code is impossible for Darwinian processes to explain is given by none other than Richard Dawkins himself,
Venter vs. Dawkins on the Tree of Life - and Another Dawkins Whopper - March 2011 Excerpt:,,, But first, let's look at the reason Dawkins gives for why the code must be universal: "The reason is interesting. Any mutation in the genetic code itself (as opposed to mutations in the genes that it encodes) would have an instantly catastrophic effect, not just in one place but throughout the whole organism. If any word in the 64-word dictionary changed its meaning, so that it came to specify a different amino acid, just about every protein in the body would instantaneously change, probably in many places along its length. Unlike an ordinary mutation...this would spell disaster." (Dawkins - 2009, p. 409-10 - The Greatest Show On Earth)?OK. Keep Dawkins' claim of universality in mind, along with his argument for why the code must be universal, and then go here (linked site listing 19 variants of the genetic code). Simple counting question: does "one or two" equal 19? That's the number of known variant genetic codes compiled by the National Center for Biotechnology Information. By any measure, Dawkins is off by an order of magnitude, times a factor of two. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/03/venter_vs_dawkins_on_the_tree_044681.html
bornagain77
October 28, 2022
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