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At The Atlantic: Dinosaurs might have had whole civilizations; how would you know?

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Taking a break, do you recall that, according to a New York Times op-ed, Knowing the universe is a simulation will end it…? Here’s an even better one: Dinosaurs had an advanced civilization but then it just disappeared without a trace. So we found the fossilized poop but not the laptops and the androids?:

The idea, a thought experiment crafted by The Atlantic writer Peter Brannen, is meant to illustrate how all of the damage done to the world by humanity happened in the blink of an eye in terms of geological timescales — meaning that an archaeologist in the future might not even know that we were ever here.

Dan Robitzski, “The Atlantic: it’s possible dinosaurs had a whole civilization ” at Futurism

From that perspective:

If, in the final 7,000 years of their reign, dinosaurs became hyperintelligent, built a civilization, started asteroid mining, and did so for centuries before forgetting to carry the one on an orbital calculation, thereby sending that famous valedictory six-mile space rock hurtling senselessly toward the Earth themselves—it would be virtually impossible to tell. All we do know is that an asteroid did hit, and that the fossils in the millions of years afterward look very different than in the millions of years prior.

So that’s what 180 million years of complete dominance buys you in the fossil record. What, then, will a few decades of industrial civilization get us? This is the central question of the Anthropocene—an epoch that supposedly started, not tens of millions of years ago, but perhaps during the Truman administration. Will our influence on the rock record really be so profound to geologists 100 million years from now, whoever they are, that they would look back and be tempted to declare the past few decades or centuries a bona fide epoch of its own?

Peter Brannen, “The Anthropocene Is a Joke” at The Atlantic

Worse, all the great ideas the dinosaurs had were wiped out too, right, by that one miscalculation?

Actually, the Anthropocene is mainly a testament to the enormous power of immaterial ideas to shape things, for good or ill. It is the best argument against materialism and it is right under our noses.

In real life, the dinosaurs never had that.

See also: Knowing the universe is a simulation will end it…? Wow, magic. No, cosmology, according to the New York Times. At least the crackpot cosmologist is mostly scaring himself. The rest of us are wondering whether those water bears could survive on the moon. That’s all the “space aliens” we can be sure of.

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8 Replies to “At The Atlantic: Dinosaurs might have had whole civilizations; how would you know?

  1. 1
    bornagain77 says:

    Hmmm,

    The Anthropocene Is a Joke: On geological timescales, human civilization is an event, not an epoch.
    Excerpt: Geological time is deep beyond all comprehension. If you were to run a 26.2-mile marathon covering the entire retrospective sweep of Earth’s history, the first five-foot stride would land you two Ice Ages ago and more than 150,000 years before the whole history of human civilization. In other words, geologically and to a first approximation, all of recorded human history is irrelevant: a subliminally fast 5,000-year span that is over almost as soon as you first lift up your heel, crammed entirely into the very end of an otherwise humdrum Pleistocene Ice Age interglacial. (NB: That this otherwise typical and temporary warm spell of the Pleistocene has also been strangely given its own epoch, the so-called Holocene—quite unlike the dozens of similar interglacials that came before it—is the original sin of anthropocentric geology.)
    If instead your marathon was forward in time, after one stride the oceans and atmosphere would have just about recovered from our wild chemistry experiment on the planet, and no surface record of human civilization would yet remain. Another stride would plunge you into another true Pleistocene-style Ice Age, with seas 400 feet lower than they are today. That missing water would instead be locked up in massive ice sheets that now bear down on the continents, plowing moraines into future islands, obliterating everything in their path, and spewing glaciers at their crumbling margins. These plots of land were once, in some forgotten time, called New York City, or Illinois. All of future time would stretch out before you. After a mile and a half, the continents would reunite in one of their many iterations of the supercontinent cycle, its shores and mountain valleys hosting creatures beyond imagining. Not only will humanity not be a part of this picture, but virtually no geological record will remain of us whatsoever. Not plastic birthday balloons, not piles of denuded chicken bones, not Charlton Heston shaking his fist at some littoral colossus. It will all be worn away, destroyed, or hidden forever.
    https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2019/08/arrogance-anthropocene/595795/

    Well that certainly is a pretty bleak situation for those of the Atheistic persuasion who believe that this temporal world is the only world that we will ever inhabit, and that we are just an unforeseen and accidental product of time and chance. Fortunately, for the rest of us who believe in God and eternal life, they are wrong.

    First, this temporal world is not the only world that we will ever inhabit but there is a ‘higher dimensional’ eternal world that awaits us after we pass away from this temporal world.

    Matthew 6:19-20
    Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.

    Eternal life not just some pie in the sky hope that Christians cling to to offset the emotional distress of our impending demise, but is now a verified feature of reality. Verified by some of our best science, i.e. special relativity.
    Special relativity, one of our most stringently tested theories ever in the history of science, reveals, just as Christianity has always held, that an ‘eternal’ higher dimension actually does physically exist above this temporal dimension.

    “The laws of relativity have changed timeless existence from a theological claim to a physical reality. Light, you see, is outside of time, a fact of nature proven in thousands of experiments at hundreds of universities. I don’t pretend to know how tomorrow can exist simultaneously with today and yesterday. But at the speed of light they actually and rigorously do. Time does not pass.”
    Dr. Richard Swenson – More Than Meets The Eye, Chpt. 11

    “Eternity is not a long time. Eternity is the opposite of time: It is no time. It is, as Augustine said, “The now that does not pass away.”
    – David Steindl-Rast – Music of Silence – pg 7

    “For those of us who believe in physics. the distinction between past, present, and future is only an illusion, however tenacious this illusion may be.”
    – Albert Einstein – March 1955 – in the letter to comfort the family of a dear friend who had passed away. (of note: Einstein passed away the next month, in April of that same year)
    Einstein: A Biography, pg. 402

    To grasp the whole concept of time coming to a complete stop at the speed of light a little more easily, imagine moving away from the face of a clock at the speed of light. Would not the hands on the clock stay stationary as you moved away from the face of the clock at the speed of light? Moving away from the face of a clock at the speed of light happens to be the very same ‘thought experiment’ that gave Einstein his breakthrough insight into special relativity. Here is a short clip from a video that gives us a look into Einstein’s breakthrough insight.

    Einstein: Einstein’s Miracle Year (‘Insight into Eternity’ – Thought Experiment 55 second mark) – video
    http://www.history.com/topics/.....racle-year

    The only way it is possible for time not to pass for light, and yet for light to move from point A to point B in our universe, is if light is of a higher dimensional value of time than the temporal time we are currently living in. Otherwise light would simply be ‘frozen within time’ to our temporal frame of reference.

    In fact, the higher dimensional nature of special relativity was a discovery that was made by one of Einstein math professors in 1908 prior to Einstein’s elucidation of General Relativity in 1915. (In fact, in 1916 Einstein fully acknowledged his indebtedness to Minkowski)

    Spacetime
    Excerpt: In 1908, Hermann Minkowski—once one of the math professors of a young Einstein in Zurich—presented a geometric interpretation of special relativity that fused time and the three spatial dimensions of space into a single four-dimensional continuum now known as Minkowski space. A key feature of this interpretation is the definition of a spacetime interval that combines distance and time. Although measurements of distance and time between events differ for measurements made in different reference frames, the spacetime interval is independent of the inertial frame of reference in which they are recorded.
    Minkowski’s geometric interpretation of relativity was to prove vital to Einstein’s development of his 1915 general theory of relativity, wherein he showed that spacetime becomes curved in the presence of mass or energy.,,,
    Einstein, for his part, was initially dismissive of Minkowski’s geometric interpretation of special relativity, regarding it as überflüssige Gelehrsamkeit (superfluous learnedness). However, in order to complete his search for general relativity that started in 1907, the geometric interpretation of relativity proved to be vital, and in 1916, Einstein fully acknowledged his indebtedness to Minkowski, whose interpretation greatly facilitated the transition to general relativity.[10]:151–152 Since there are other types of spacetime, such as the curved spacetime of general relativity, the spacetime of special relativity is today known as Minkowski spacetime.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime

    One way for us to more easily understand this higher dimensional framework for time that light exist in is to visualize what would happen if a hypothetical observer approached the speed of light.
    In the first part of following video clip, going to the 3:17 minute mark, which was made by two Australian University Physics Professors, we find that the 3-Dimensional world ‘folds and collapses’ into a tunnel shape as a ‘hypothetical’ observer approaches the ‘higher dimension’ of the speed of light.

    Optical Effects of Special Relativity – video
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQnHTKZBTI4

    To give us a better understanding as to what it would be like to exist in a higher dimension, this following video, Dr. Quantum in Flatland, also gives us a small insight as to what it would be like to exist in a higher dimension:

    Dr. Quantum in Flatland – video
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5yxZ5I-zsE

    Moreover, to further validate the Christian’s claim that heaven is actually physically real and actually exists we don’t have to rely solely on our scientific evidence from special relativity. But we can also reference the many testimonies of people who have died for a short while and come back to tell us what they saw. These testimonies are termed Near Death Experiences.

    Many of the characteristics found in Near Death Experience testimonies are exactly what we would expect to see from what we now know to be true about Special Relativity: For instance, many times people who have had a Near Death Experience mention that their perception of time was radically altered:

    In the following video clip, Mickey Robinson gives his Near Death testimony of what it felt like for him to experience a ‘timeless eternity’.

    ‘In the ‘spirit world,,, instantly, there was no sense of time. See, everything on earth is related to time. You got up this morning, you are going to go to bed tonight. Something is new, it will get old. Something is born, it’s going to die. Everything on the physical plane is relative to time, but everything in the spiritual plane is relative to eternity. Instantly I was in total consciousness and awareness of eternity, and you and I as we live in this earth cannot even comprehend it, because everything that we have here is filled within the veil of the temporal life. In the spirit life that is more real than anything else and it is awesome. Eternity as a concept is awesome. There is no such thing as time. I knew that whatever happened was going to go on and on.’
    In The Presence Of Almighty God – The NDE of Mickey Robinson – video (testimony starts at 27:45 minute mark)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voak1RM-pXo

    And here are a few more quotes from people who have had a Near Death Experience, that speak of how their perception of time was radically altered as they were outside of their material, temporal, body.

    ‘Earthly time has no meaning in the spirit realm. There is no concept of before or after. Everything – past, present, future – exists simultaneously.’
    – Kimberly Clark Sharp – Near Death Experiencer

    ‘There is no way to tell whether minutes, hours or years go by. Existence is the only reality and it is inseparable from the eternal now.’
    – John Star – NDE Experiencer

  2. 2
    bornagain77 says:

    As well, Near Death Experiencers also frequently mention going through a tunnel to a higher heavenly dimension:

    Ask the Experts: What Is a Near-Death Experience (NDE)? – article with video
    Excerpt: “Very often as they’re moving through the tunnel, there’s a very bright mystical light … not like a light we’re used to in our earthly lives. People call this mystical light, brilliant like a million times a million suns…”
    – Jeffrey Long M.D. – has studied NDE’s extensively
    http://abcnews.go.com/Nightlin....._gydvW8jbI

    The Tunnel and the Near-Death Experience
    Excerpt: One of the nine elements that generally occur during NDEs is the tunnel experience. This involves being drawn into darkness through a tunnel, at an extremely high speed, until reaching a realm of radiant golden-white light.
    https://www.near-death.com/science/research/tunnel.html

    In the following video, Barbara Springer gives her testimony as to what it felt like for her to go through the tunnel:

    “I started to move toward the light. The way I moved, the physics, was completely different than it is here on Earth. It was something I had never felt before and never felt since. It was a whole different sensation of motion. I obviously wasn’t walking or skipping or crawling. I was not floating. I was flowing. I was flowing toward the light. I was accelerating and I knew I was accelerating, but then again, I didn’t really feel the acceleration. I just knew I was accelerating toward the light. Again, the physics was different – the physics of motion of time, space, travel. It was completely different in that tunnel, than it is here on Earth. I came out into the light and when I came out into the light, I realized that I was in heaven.”
    Barbara Springer – Near Death Experience – The Tunnel – video
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv2jLeoAcMI

    And in the following audio clip, Vicki Noratuk, who has been blind from birth, besides being able to see for the first time during in her life during her Near Death Experience,,,

    Kenneth Ring and Sharon Cooper (1997) conducted a study of 31 blind people, many of who reported being able to see during their NDEs. 21 of these people had had an NDE while the remaining 10 had had an out-of-body experience (OBE), but no NDE. It was found that in the NDE sample, about half had been blind from birth. In all, 15 of the 21 NDEers and 9 of the 10 OBEers could see during their experience while the remaining participants either claimed that they did not see or were not sure whether or not they had seen.

    ,,, Vicki also gives testimony of going through a tunnel:

    “I was in a body, and the only way that I can describe it was a body of energy, or of light. And this body had a form. It had a head, it had arms and it had legs. And it was like it was made out of light. And it was everything that was me. All of my memories, my consciousness, everything.”,,, “And then this vehicle formed itself around me. Vehicle is the only thing, or tube, or something, but it was a mode of transportation that’s for sure! And it formed around me. And there was no one in it with me. I was in it alone. But I knew there were other people ahead of me and behind me. What they were doing I don’t know, but there were people ahead of me and people behind me, but I was alone in my particular conveyance. And I could see out of it. And it went at a tremendously, horrifically, rapid rate of speed. But it wasn’t unpleasant. It was beautiful in fact.,, I was reclining in this thing, I wasn’t sitting straight up, but I wasn’t lying down either. I was sitting back. And it was just so fast. I can’t even begin to tell you where it went or whatever it was just fast!” –
    Vicki’s NDE – Blind since birth –
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e65KhcCS5-Y

    And both of the following quotes testify that they firmly believed that they were in a higher dimension that is above this three-dimensional world and that the primary reason that they have a very difficult time explaining what their Near Death Experiences felt like is because we simply don’t currently have the words to properly describe that higher dimension:

    “Regardless, it is impossible for me to adequately describe what I saw and felt. When I try to recount my experiences now, the description feels very pale. I feel as though I’m trying to describe a three-dimensional experience while living in a two-dimensional world. The appropriate words, descriptions and concepts don’t even exist in our current language. I have subsequently read the accounts of other people’s near-death experiences and their portrayals of heaven and I able to see the same limitations in their descriptions and vocabulary that I see in my own.”
    Mary C. Neal, MD – To Heaven And Back pg. 71

    “Well, when I was taking geometry, they always told me there were only three dimensions, and I always just accepted that. But they were wrong. There are more… And that is why so hard for me to tell you this. I have to describe with words that are three-dimensional. That’s as close as I can get to it, but it’s really not adequate.”
    John Burke – Imagine Heaven pg. 51 – quoting a Near Death Experiencer

    Thus, according to one of our most stringently verified theories ever in the history of science, i.e. Special Relativity, and according to testimonies from NDEs, the Christian is not just whistling Dixie when he talks about a higher heavenly dimension being above this temporal world, but he is talking about a reality that is physically real. A physically real heavenly ‘kingdom of light’.

    Verse:

    2 Corinthians 12 :2-4
    I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell.

    John 12:36
    Believe in the light while you have the light, so that you may become children of light.” When he had finished speaking, Jesus left and hid himself from them.

    Supplemental notes:

    July 2019 – Overturning of the Copernican Principle (by both General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics)
    https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/we-are-invited-to-consider-a-simpler-perspective-on-the-laws-of-physics/#comment-680427

    (The Nihilism of) Atheistic Materialism vs. (True) Meaning, Value, and Purpose in Our Lives – video (review of the scientific evidence starts at the 13:00 minute mark)
    https://youtu.be/aqUxBSbFhog?t=782

  3. 3
    BobRyan says:

    This is every bit as ridiculous a thought experiment as the one with enough monkeys and enough typewriters. Both are easy to challenge. If there were a civilization that predated humans, then we would have found some evidence that it had existed. The only evidence of civilizations that we have ever found is from our own history. As for the monkeys and typewriters, I’ll give an infinite amount of both and say that not one page would ever be typed. Not one monkey from the infinite would load the paper into the type writer, line it up to ensure it will feed straight, back it up to the proper starting point and then start typing.

  4. 4
    Seversky says:

    At The Atlantic: Dinosaurs might have had whole civilizations; how would you know?

    If ours is anything to go by, all the dumps of unrecycled trash they left lying around.

  5. 5
    ET says:

    Except for the fact the dinos did not have hands to make the packaging that we use…

  6. 6
    doubter says:

    Dinosaurs had an advanced civilization but then it just disappeared without a trace.

    Robitzski didn’t think it through. There would be plenty of surviving traces if the dinosaurs had evolved an intelligent species that developed high technology. Mankind in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries would have found that most of the petroleum and gas and coal fields, and accessible metal ore deposits, had already been pumped and mined out. The development of our present technology would have been largely prevented by this. To say nothing about the fact that some products of our present technology are virtually impervious to the ravages of geological time and will still remain trapped in the rock layers millions of years later. For instance the millions of lowly ceramic toilets. The intelligent dinosaurs would presumably have had something equivalent though differently shaped of course.

  7. 7
    bornagain77 says:

    I’m surprised nobody has brought up Dilbert, the dinosaurs “are just hiding”!

    Dogbert Evolution
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjhbtCWHj1g

  8. 8
    ET says:

    Through the power of imagination, dinosaurs evolved into chickens/ birds. Imagination is a powerful blind watchmaker evolutionary mechanism.

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