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BarryA Responds to His Critics at Panda’s Thumb

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As I write this there have been 80 comments to my posts about the evidence issues implicated by the plaintiffs’ literature bluff at the Dover trial.  Our friends at Panda’s Thumb have also opened a thread to discuss my posts see (here) and also (here).  For those interested in my response to PT, read on.

1.  The Literature Bluff and Jones reliance on it.

To set the stage once again, here is the passage from the transcript where plaintiffs make their literature bluff followed by the passage from Judge Jones’ opinion where he swallowed it hook, line and sinker:

Q (from plaintiffs lawyer). We’ll return to that in a little while. Let’s turn back to Darwin’s Black Box and continue discussing the immune system. If you could turn to page 138?  Matt, if you could highlight the second full paragraph on page 138?  What you say is, “We can look high or we can look low in books or in journals, but the result is the same. The scientific literature has no answers to the question of the origin of the immune system.”  That’s what you wrote, correct?

A (from Behe). And in the context that means that the scientific literature has no detailed testable answers to the question of how the immune system could have arisen by random mutation and natural selection.
 

[Behe’s answer here is critical to the analysis.  His assertion is obviously NOT that there are no books or articles that generally discuss the evolution of the immune system.  Of course there are.  His assertion is that none of the books and articles provide detailed testable answers about how the immune system could have arisen through Neo-Darwinian mechanisms.  If he were to be impeached by the 58 books and records, the material impeaching him must go to what he said, not something he did not say.]

Q. Now, you were here when Professor Miller testified?
A. Yes.
Q. And he discussed a number of articles on the immune system, correct?
 

A. Yes, he did. . . .
 

Q. And these are not the only articles on the evolution of vertebrate immune system?

A. There are many articles.

[Behe concedes there are “many” articles that generally discuss the evolution of the immune system.  If that were the issue to which the 58 books and articles went, plaintiffs were impeaching him on a point he had conceded, which was strange indeed.]
 

Q. May I approach?

THE COURT: You may.

Q. Professor Behe, what I have given you has been marked Plaintiff’s Exhibit 743.  

Q. And there are fifty-eight articles in here on the evolution of the immune system?
 

A. Yes. That’s what it seems to say . . .
 

Q. I’m going to read some titles here. We have Evolution of Immune Reactions by Sima and Vetvicka, are you familiar with that?

A. No, I’m not . . .
 

Q. You haven’t read those chapters?
 

A. No, I haven’t.
 

Q. You haven’t read the books that I gave you?
 

A. No, I haven’t.  I have read those papers that I presented though yesterday on the immune system.

Q. And the fifty-eight articles, some yes, some no?

A. Well, the nice thing about science is that often times when you read the latest articles, or a sampling of the latest articles, they certainly include earlier results.  So you get up to speed pretty quickly.  You don’t have to go back and read every article on a particular topic for the last fifty years or so.

Q. And all of these materials I gave you and, you know, those, including those you’ve read, none of them in your view meet the standard you set for literature on the evolution of the immune system?  No scientific literature has no answers to the question of the origin of the immune system?

A. Again in the context of that chapter, I meant no answers, no detailed rigorous answers to the question of how the immune system could arise by random mutation and natural selection, and yes, in my, in the reading I have done I have not found any such studies.
 

[This question and this answer are the nub of the issue.  Plaintiffs are trying to impeach Behe on a matter about which he does not disagree with them.  It is a matter of apples and oranges.  Behe says there are no books and articles giving a detailed account of the evolution of the immune system through Neo-Darwinian mechanisms, and plaintiffs attempt to impeach him by showing him a stack of books and articles that discuss the evolution of the immune system generally – do those books and articles actually impeach Behe’s assertion?  There is no way to tell on this record.]

Here is the excerpt from Jones’ opinion where he relies on the literature bluff.

“The immune system is the third system to which Professor Behe has applied the definition of irreducible complexity. Although in Darwin’s Black Box, Professor Behe wrote that not only were there no natural explanations for the immune system at the time, but that natural explanations were impossible regarding its origin. (P-647 at 139; [128]2:26-27 (Miller)). However, Dr. Miller presented peer-reviewed studies refuting Professor Behe’s claim that the immune system was irreducibly complex. Between 1996 and 2002, various studies confirmed each element of the evolutionary hypothesis explaining the origin of the immune system. ([129]2:31 (Miller)). In fact, on cross-examination, Professor Behe was questioned concerning his 1996 claim that science would never find an evolutionary explanation for the immune system. He was presented with fifty- eight peer-reviewed publications, nine books, and several immunology textbook chapters about the evolution of the immune system; however, he simply insisted that this was still not sufficient evidence of evolution, and that it was not “good enough.” ([130]23:19 (Behe)).”

Note that Jones ignored the distinction Behe made.  Behe said there were no DETAILED ACCOUNTS of the evolution of the immune system through Neo-Darwinian mechanism.  By the time it got to Jones’ opinion Behe was being quoted as saying there are no accounts of any kind of the evolution of the immune system.  As is clear from the transcript above, Behe said exactly the opposite.  Behe’s position is that yes, there are general accounts, just no detailed accounts.

2.  The books and articles were important for the information contained in them, or they were important for nothing at all.
 

Before I get into the specific criticisms, one thing should be made clear.  Over and over again, both in response to my posts and in their own posts, my critics keep saying that the only thing the plaintiffs were trying to prove with the 58 books and articles was the mere existence of the books and articles.  By this I take it they mean that the mere existence of 58 books and articles about the evolution of the immune system refuted Behe’s assertion that there are no detailed accounts of the evolution of the immune system by random mutation and natural selection.  This is one of the silliest arguments I have ever heard, and it is difficult for me to credit that grown people would make it. 

The title of a book or article is evidence of nothing.  Only the information contained in a book or article is relevant.  Can I prove the existence of time travel by introducing as an exhibit a book entitled “A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur’s Court?”  Of course not.  Because when one opens the book it is clearly a work of fiction.  Can I prove that scientists have developed a detailed account of the evolution of the immune system by introducing a book entitled “A Detailed Account of the Evolution of the Immune System?”  No, no, no.  The important thing about a book is not the promise of the title, but whether it delivers on the promise.  

That is why introducing 58 books and articles for no other purpose than to prove the existence of 58 books and articles with “evolution” and “immune system” in their title proves nothing.  Did any of these books actually deliver on the promise of their title?  On this record there is no way to tell.  Therefore, the point of my posts is that the evidence is meaningless and should have been excluded both as irrelevant (Rule 402) and as Hearsay (Rule 802) UNLESS the procedures of Rule 803(18) were followed.  Since the procedures of that rule were not followed, the defendants’ lawyers should have objected to it, and Jones should have (1) excluded it and (2) not relied on it in his opinion.

3.  The Second Post Was Based On A Review of the Transcript.
 

One critic quotes my second post where I said that after it became apparent that there was no testimony that the 58 books and articles were authoritative, they should have been objected to and excluded.  Then he chides me for being inconsistent by quoting from the first post where I said that based on the quotes in Gil’s thread it appeared that an authoritative foundation had been laid.

The answer to this is simple.  In my first post I included the following disclaimer:

“I was going to post this in Gil’s “Literature Bluffing” thread, but it got too long, so I am putting it in this post.  Let me preface this comment by stating that I have not reviewed the transcript of the Dover trial in detail, and I am basing what I am about to say on the information in the thread to Gil’s post.”

I wrote my second post after reading Behe’s testimony.  From that review it was clear that he had not stipulated that the 58 books and articles were authoritative.  Indeed, how could he since he was not even asked the question?

4.  PT Does Not Get the Basic Point.
 

One critic says:  “What Eric Rothschild (plaintiffs’ lawyer) was going after in the cross-examination was Behe’s claim that the scientific literature didn’t discuss the evolution of the immune system.”

Nonsense.  Pure drivel.  Behe admitted there were “many” articles discussing the evolution of the immune system:

Q. And these are not the only articles on the evolution of vertebrate immune system?

A. There are many articles.

Again, Behe’s point was not that there were no articles discussion the evolution of the immune system generally, but no articles providing a detailed account of its evolution through Neo-Darwinian mechanisms.

5.  There is more than one way to establish an article is authoritative.
 

My critics say that under my interpretation of Rule 803(18), a learned treatise can never be used to impeach an expert unless the expert that is being impeached admits that it is authoritative and that he agrees with it.  They say that under my view of the rule the following exchange could take place:  [Expert:]  ‘I’m sorry, I have no knowledge of this textbook that is basic to this field.’ [Lawyer:]‘Your honor, move to exclude this on the grounds that my expert doesn’t know a thing about it.’ [Court:] ‘Granted.’”

I never said this; indeed, I said just the opposite (see comment 39 to my second post).

In order to comply with Rule 803(18), the plaintiffs should have asked Behe one by one if each of the 58 books and articles was authoritative.  I am sure that after reviewing them one by one Behe would have said that all or most of them were.  For those that Behe refused to admit were authoritative, plaintiffs could have had another expert testify they were.

The first step of Rule 803(18) is usually not hard to meet.  My point is simply this.  There has to be some evidence from a person qualified to comment on the issue that a book or article is authoritative.  The judge is not entitled to simply assume that books and articles with fancy titles are authoritative. 

In the PT example, if expert A truly is unaware of a definitive work in the field, then the opposition could call expert B to testify that the work is definitive, and then impeach A with the work even if he had never read it.

6.  The books and articles were offered to prove the truth of the matters they asserted.
 

Another critic writes:  “Actually, BarryA is wrong on another count. The books and articles weren’t inadmissible because they were not hearsay. All of his discussion about learned treatises and the parameters of Federal Rule of Evidence 803(18) is meaningless. The books and articles weren’t offered to prove the truth of any statement contained in them. They were offered instead to contradict Behe’s claim that there were no peer-reviewed articles discussing the evolution of the immune system. That being the case, they’re not hearsay and there’s no reason to exclude them from evidence. Fed. R. Evid. 801(c).”

Wrong.  Please see comment 2 above.

 

 

 

Comments
DS: "Andrea’s must know his case is exceedingly weak to purposely create these false statements." Quoting from Behe's expert deposition: --- Q: So in your efforts to keep abreast of the literature on the evolution of the immune system, neither of these articles is something that you have stumbled upon? A: I have not read these, and I would be waiting for larger news stories to point to these things -- to point to significant developments in understanding these systems. ... Q: You said you would expect to have been made aware of an article through other news or something to that effect. I wasn't sure what you meant by that. A: Well, a real detailed explanation for understanding such a system would I think be large news across the scientific community. So that one would see not only an occasional article even in Nature dealing with a topic, one would see reviews in scientific literature such as the annual reviews summarizing not only some step that some people are trying to address, but the overall multiple problems that such a system would have to deal with. I would expect maybe even Scientific American or the New York Times or some such publications to have large headlines saying that finally we have an understanding of at least one molecular system. ---- IOW, Behe does not routinely read the primary scientific literature (even in major journals like Nature) about the progress of the research on the evolution of the immune system or other IC systems, but expects any big news to appear in the secondary literature or in lay publications, such as the New York Times. That's why he had not read the vast majority of the papers presented to him at Kitzmiller. This was just in response to someone saying that Behe knows "full well" the evidence I was talking about - he doesn't (or better - didn't when he was asked about it, as he may know it now).Andrea
August 13, 2006
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Interestingly and revealingly, the Behe quote proffered by Andrea does not contain the word "infinite". The point stands. Andrea made a straw man by asserting that Behe asked for the impossible (infinite detail) when he did no such thing. Even in light of this Andrea refuses to give up the claim. Behe very well might have asked for the impossible for it is not possible to demonstrate that a non-existent thing exists. This is not the same as asking for an infinite amount of evidence. Behe asked for a sufficient amount of evidence.DaveScot
August 13, 2006
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Andrea said: “Still, this deep incompleteness and uncertainty [about our PRESENT understanding of the functioning of the immune system] doesn’t seem to prevent Behe (or anyone else) from accepting that the immune system exists and works, from describing its properties along general lines that are accepted by the scientific community, etc.” Fascinating. A Darwinist can admit that the scientific community’s understanding of a system is deeply incomplete and uncertain. Then the same Darwinist can turn around and say the Neo-Darwinist paradigm gives us a fully acceptable account of the system we don’t understand. That’s some trick. Let me ask you this. Does the Neo-Darwinist paradigm give an acceptable account of the origin of only the parts of the system that are understood? Or does it also give an acceptable account of the origin of the parts of the system about which our understanding is deeply incomplete and uncertain? If the latter, how can Neo-Darwinism explain the origin of the part of a system that is not understood?BarryA
August 13, 2006
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Okay Andrea, I'll bite. Please tell me what tests were performed to determine that the detailed and testable evolutionary pathway traversed to get the antigen receptor recombination system were due to random chance mutations filtered by natural selection. Also, please provide a link to this detailed and testable evolutionary pathway and explain why, if it exists as you claim, why it wasn't read into evidence. Barry is entirely correct that a mere exhibit is insufficient in and of itself. The relevance of the exhibit must be read into evidence.DaveScot
August 13, 2006
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And yet another straw man by Andrea in the assertion that Behe gets his immunology updates from "the New York Times and stuff". What Behe actually said was he need not read everything printed on a subject in the last 50 years to become familiar with the state of the art because more recent articles are inclusive of what has gone before. Andrea's must know his case is exceedingly weak to purposely create these false statements.DaveScot
August 13, 2006
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DaveScot: there is no strawman. The current explanation for the evolution of the antigen receptor recombination system is detailed and testable. It is more detailed, tested and verified than, for instance, the model for the evolution of hemoglobin, which Behe thinks is perfectly OK. However, Behe is not asking for a run-of-the-mill, conventional "detailed and testable" scientific explanation but, and I quote: ... not only a list of mutations, but also a detailed account of the selective pressures that would be operating, the difficulties such changes would cause for the organism, the expected time scale over which the changes would be expected to occur, the likely population sizes available in the relevant ancestral species at each step, other potential ways to solve the problem which might interfere, and much more." This is infinite detail (note also the "and much more"), and Behe knows it is literally impossible to obtain empirically. Seriously, even if it were possible to have this level of resolution for anything in science, we don't have it for pretty much anything. In fact, our current understanding of the immune system as it is today does not fulfill this standard - we don't have a complete knowledge of all its components, their molecular, cellular and functional inter-relationships, their pattern of engagement by different kinds of pathogens and foreign substances, etc - we don't even know for sure what the ultimate logic is ("self/non-self discrimination"? "danger signals"?). Still, this deep incompleteness and uncertainty doesn't seem to prevent Behe (or anyone else) from accepting that the immune system exists and works, from describing its properties along general lines that are accepted by the scientific community, etc.Andrea
August 13, 2006
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DaveScot! Welcome back. I missed you.BarryA
August 13, 2006
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Note how Andrea creates a straw man by using the nonsense term "infinite detail" in place of "detailed and testable". Behe said there was no detailed and testable explanation for the evolution of the immune system. Why does Andrea need to mangle that into Behe asking for "infinite detail"? The answer is obvious. A detailed and testable hypothesis is the first milestone on the way to a theory while infinite detail is, by definition, never attainable and thus an impossible task to fulfill. Andrea wishes to make it seem that Behe asked for the impossible instead of something reasonable.DaveScot
August 13, 2006
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"I think you are forgetting that Behe is a scientist himself, and he knows full well what you have posted."Not "full well", since by his own admission he has not read all of the literature, and learns of breakthroughs in the field from the pages of the New York Times and such. But regardless, when directly confronted with some of the evidence, his response was the same I am criticizing here: "It's not enough (and - implicitly - it's never going to be)". That's not a valid scientific response (besides undermining his own argument about IC). "By the way, what there successful predictions done in regards to the immune system, that gives Darwinists the confidence that natural selection and random mutation are able to account for its origins?" The evidence I have linked to over and over here at UD, as original sources, professional reviews and, in some cases, lay "digests".Andrea
August 13, 2006
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"Please note that in “intelligent design” it’s normally small changes that are made to improve the product." First note -- Incremental != small. I just finished an incremental change to one of our applications. It probably changed maybe 100 lines. However if those changes were not made in coordination, there is no path leading from one to the other. For each requied coordination, the search space increases by a full order of magnitude. So, this was a very small change, yet the jump is impossible for an atelic mechanism. The change was holistic (i.e. irreducibly complex). It made no sense as a sequence of selectable steps (no step would have been selectable), but it made complete sense as a holistic idea. And, even if someone were to figure out an extremely convoluted pathway, there is no way the change sequence could become fixed in a reasonable time frame.johnnyb
August 13, 2006
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Andrea, I think you are forgetting that Behe is a scientist himself, and he knows full well what you have posted. The question everyone wants to know is: When will Darwinists openly say that they don't have any detailed account of the origin of ONE Irreducible COmplex system, instead of tossing sand to ppl's eyes, with bogus "refutations"? By the way, what there successful predictions done in regards to the immune system, that gives Darwinists the confidence that natural selection and random mutation are able to account for its origins?Mats
August 13, 2006
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Well, it's a bit disappointing that no one seems to be tackling the evidence I linked to, but maybe you need more time. As for the comments that scientists should just "be honest", admit what they don't know and be done with it - well, they do. All scientists will tell your their conclusions are provisional, and no scientist will claim they have achieved 100% detail in their explanations. However, depending on the topic, scientists will tell you they can reach good, often high levels of confidence in an explanation even in the absence of absolute knowledge. For instance, they can send people to the Moon without knowing what gravity really is. Successfully testing predictions is probably the main way scientists achieve that confidence, and the number of successfully verified predictions with regard to the immune system make scientists very confident about, for instance, the evolutionary origin of the antigen receptor rearrangement components. You can't honestly ask for more from science (or, if you do, you should apply the standards consistently and reject all of science).Andrea
August 13, 2006
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idnet: As you and Andrea both said: "severe reductions in function generally result from the alteration of even one component". They generally will be, just not always. You say "What I am saying is that to go from system 1 to system 2, that is vastly improved". Why vastly improved? It just has to be ever so slightly better at making into the next generation within that particular environment. And if, for example, in system ABC you get a great reduction in efficiency if you remove A, what if instead of removing A it turns out that removing B only results in a smaller decrease in efficiency. Indeed removing B then A could result in the smaller steps required. The order with which you remove components could have a huge bearing on the size of steps required. Also, the small steps don't have to be in terms of efficiency. A large step could be made in terms of efficiency if it is a small step in "genespace". Evolution proceeds in small steps in genespace, but can take huge steps in other ways. Small changes in genes can result in some bizarre changes. Here's a non-evolution (I think) example that blew my mind recently: http://scienceblogs.com/loom/2006/08/09/an_old_dog_lives_on_inside_new.php . Is this a new phyla? Is it still a dog? Further, you have lost track of what Andrea's comment was, it was particularly in relation to that complex system - not of any general system or of a simpler system from which an intermediate may have evolved. Without knowing the ancestral system we don't know whether or not it was as "fragile" as the descendant. Please note that in "intelligent design" it's normally small changes that are made to improve the product. I'm almost tempted to use Microsoft Windows as an example of "Intelligent Design", but I won't. :) We should also note that elegant solutions can and have arisen through evolutionary algorithms, and this technique is increasingly being explored in the computer industry. Did you read about the Avida "organisms" that evolved the ability to recognise when the researchers were looking?MikeFNQ
August 13, 2006
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Incremental change never had anything to do with organic evolution. "A past evolution is ideniable, a present evolution undemonstrable." John A. DavisonJohn A. Davison
August 13, 2006
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MikeFNQ Sorry I am not making myself clear. What I am saying is that to go from system 1 to system 2, that is vastly improved, we must mutate system 1 in some way. Each of these mutations must be small and must have a selective advantage. This is Dawkins small steps to the top of Mt Improbable. I am arguing that Andrea said that changes to known existing systems are almost always damaging. We should expect that the present system 2, should have some beneficial mutations so it may become the new system 2.0001 then 2.002 etc like Adobe Reader. Improved systems in my experience, for example in the drug industry, come from Intelligent Design not random processes.idnet.com.au
August 13, 2006
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idnet: Again, you are thinking backward. Evolution isn't taking a piece out. It's starting point is not the final system. Any reduction in the function of the system by removing a piece is irrelevant. The only question is whether that intermediary is better than what was there before, the ancestral form. You are saying System 3 is much better than System 2 therefore the it can't have gone from System 1 to System 2. That's simply wrong. System 2 can be much worse than System 3, just as long as it is better than its ancestor, System 1. And again, this is assuming that that's the only possible path.MikeFNQ
August 13, 2006
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Rule 803(18) of the Federal Rules of Evidence expressly states that statements from "learned treatises" may be read into the evidence but may not be received as exhibits, and there are no exceptions given --
If admitted, the statements may be read into evidence but may not be received as exhibits. -- from http://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/fre/rules.htm#Rule803
Some Darwinists have been arguing that the above rule does not apply because allegedly the issue was just the existence of the publications and not whether the publications refuted Behe's claims. However, the final opinion assumed that the publications refuted Behe's claims, even though no statement from the publications was read into the record -- the final opinion said,
In fact, on cross-examination, Professor Behe was questioned concerning his 1996 claim that science would never find an evolutionary explanation for the immune system. He was presented with fifty eight peer-reviewed publications, nine books, and several immunology textbook chapters about the evolution of the immune system; however, he simply insisted that this was still not sufficient evidence of evolution, and that it was not "good enough." (23:19(Behe)).
The opinion said later,
We therefore find that Professor Behe's claim for irreducible complexity has been refuted in peer-reviewed research papers and has been rejected by the scientific community at large.
So the ultimate issue in the opinion was not whether the publications existed but whether their evidence for the evolution of immune systems was "good enough" to refute Behe's claims -- and Judge Jones assumed that the answer was "yes." And as Behe pointed out, the words "good enough" were not his but were the attorney's.Larry Fafarman
August 13, 2006
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MikeFNQ My comments on Andrea are based on a big picture overview. We are not talking about A going to AB etc. We are talking about an essay on mathematics evolving into an essay on geography, with every change random, and small, and with each change an improvement on the original excellent essay. "Severely reduced function is still better than no function at all and hence would be selected for." This only applies looking back from excellent function. In reality, we see experimentally that almost any change to anyhting we know of, causes a severe reduction in function. This would decrease future survival and the new organism would be snuffed out, as we see in the real world.idnet.com.au
August 13, 2006
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Remember that the question isn't "Is the system with a piece missing as good as the system?", it's "Is the system with a piece missing better than no system at all?" We also have to remember that a system ABC doesn't have to arise A - AB - ABC, it could be D - DA - DAB - DABC - ABC. The function of the system can also change.MikeFNQ
August 13, 2006
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idnet.com.au emphasises Severe reductions in function generally result from the alteration of even one component. Of course this doesn't help his argument at all. Severely reduced function is still better than no function at all and hence would be selected for. So even if the that is the only pathway it could have followed, it is viable. It provides a working system. While idnet thinks what Andrea said is supportive of ID, the opposite is actually true.MikeFNQ
August 13, 2006
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I have studied Andrea's PT posting http://www.pandasthumb.org/archives/2005/05/the_revenge_of.html When in Medical School, I was fascinated by the human immune system. The VDJ recombinant immunoglobulin system was as yet unelucidated. I spent many hours in lunch time meetings with the Department Head discussing the possible source of the impossible diversity in these proteins. The problem is essentially, that we have a complex system of compressed information. We need "an almost infinite variety" of antibodies, yet we have a very compact genome. Of course, there was an elegant system, and someone got the Nobel Prize for finding it. ID would predict that a designer would use compressed data, a system that used a small "alphabet" of genes, to construct a myriad of immunological "words". The complexity of the system defies simple explanation. It is not, as Andrea describes it, that "there is only one you" and that all the immune system has to recognise is the "very many different forms of "non-self"". No, there are actually very many "forms of self", and in the offspring, those "forms of self" are very different from the "self" of either parent. There is a complex system of exclusion of the immunological "words" that turn out to act against "self". That has to occur very early in the development of the organism. The systems here involve complexity imposed on complexity to an overwhelming degree. The reaction of IDists is not, as Andrea claims, "giving up". ID supporters are just as good at doing the here and now research as convinced materialists. Reverse engineering can be accomplished for many engineered systems, those designed by a designer, and those designed by RM and NS, if there are such systems. The most IDists should be accused of is having less fertile imaginations than materialists.idnet.com.au
August 13, 2006
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From Anrdea at his uni web site http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/gebs/faculty/Andrea_Bottaro.htm "Antibodies (also called immunoglobulins, or Ig) are B lymphocyte-derived serum proteins involved in the immune response to foreign substances and micro-organisms (antigens). To become fully productive, Ig-encoding genes have to undergo multiple rearrangements of their DNA sequences through unique recombination mechanisms. Early in B lymphocyte development, VDJ recombination originates the antigen-binding region of the antibody molecule; a second type of rearrangement, class switch recombination (CSR), is activated in mature B cells during an immune response and allows the generation of different classes of antibodies with specific effector functions. These processes are crucial for normal immune system function, and their alteration can lead to severe immunodeficiency." Note the last sentence uses the word "crucial" and states that their alteration can lead to "severe immunodeficiency". IC states that intemediates are unlikely, given that from all we know about changing existing systems, what Andrea says is true. Severe reductions in function generally result from the alteration of even one component. I would cite what Andrea writes as supportive of IC.idnet.com.au
August 12, 2006
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Also take heart in the fact that fewer than one in five Americans buy the blind-watchmaker argument, and that percentage appears to be shrinking with time, despite government sponsorship of indoctrination in the public schools, legal sanctions against those who dissent from Darwinian orthodoxy, and the systematic persecution of academics who dare to question. Darwinian orthodoxy is hanging on precariously by a very slender thread. If I were a Panda, I wouldn't gloat too much over Judge Jones' decision.GilDodgen
August 12, 2006
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Gil, I take heart in the fact that my main point, after over 100 comments on this site and all the comments on PT, remains unrebutted. Thank you for touching this off with your post and getting me to look at this issue more closely. It just seems to me that the rules of evidence were suspended in Dover. I guess that's what you get when you elevate a member of the Liquor Control Board to the federal bench.BarryA
August 12, 2006
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The entire Darwinian edifice (by that I mean the blind-watchmaker thesis) is one giant literature and storytelling bluff, and it has been since the beginning. This is what Phillip Johnson picked up on immediately and what inspired him to write Darwin On Trial. Barry, take heart. When I wrote my UD essay, "Writing Computer Programs by Random Mutation and Natural Selection," the Pandas established a special thread in an attempt to refute my arguments. When this happens you can be assured that they are in wild-eyed thrashing mode, desperate to defend the indefensible.GilDodgen
August 12, 2006
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Andrea wrote: Well, I beg to differ, and so would pretty much every other immunologist out there. Not this one: Caroline Crocker, and she was on your side for most of her life, until she investigated the matter further.
Hmm, I don't think Caroline Crocker is an immunologist, and would thus probably not like to be characterized as such.HodorH
August 12, 2006
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"We simply cannot get that kind of detail for anything in science, so it that’s the new standard, we may just as well close up MIT, the NIH, etc and all go home." Perhaps instead of "closing up and going home" you should instead be honest with what you know and what you don't. That's really all anyone is asking for. We're tired of baseless claims being trumpetted as if they had the rigor of testable observations. It is apparent that we have stepped on dogmatism when scientists are unable to admit when they don't know something, and think that someone disagrees with them about facts that they don't know something for sure means that they should pack up and go home. That's the behavior of schoolchildren, not adults, and I would hope not scientists.johnnyb
August 12, 2006
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Andrea wrote: We simply cannot get that kind of detail for anything in science, so it that’s the new standard, we may just as well close up MIT, the NIH, etc and all go home.
Then perhaps saying "we don't know, or may never know" is better than insisting on a theory that maybe almost surely wrong. The issue for Behe is not evolutionary phylogeny, it is the adequacy of the mechanism in question. Even in physics we have uncertainty principles which limit what we can scientifically say about reality. I have less problem with "we don't know" than raising forensic speculations (like Darwiism) to the level of operational observations (like operatioal chemistry, physics, medicine, and engineering). Intelligent Design, though important to this trial, was not specifically the topic in this line of questioning. The line of questioning was the adequacy of Darwinian accounts, not merely phylogenies. In any, case, as frustrating as it may be for you to visit here Andrea, I thank you for taking the time to participate. You're certainly more articulate and knowledgeable than 95% of the anti-IDers I encounter on the net. I hope you will continue to participate. Salvadorscordova
August 12, 2006
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BarryA -- Exactly. The problem is that there are so many mutations that would lead to catastrophic behavior for a system. Neo-Darwinists have to show that (a) there is a route available to RM+NS that doesn't have points of system catastrophe, (b) that each of these points is in addition selectable, and (c) that there is enough time available for the routes to be generated, and (d) there is enough time available to fix the mutations in the population. Somehow the Darwinists miss the fact that Darwinism is a _mechanism_. Therefore, to say that X is due to Darwinism is to say that the Darwinian mechanism is capable. To say that science has shown the Darwinian mechanism capable is to say something very specific, that is a-d above have been solved. If the challenge has not been met, then it is disingenuous to, as Sal has pointed out, merely point out phylogeny as if that establishes the mechanism which established the phylogeny. The question that ID poses to evolutionary biology is what is the mechanism that establishes phylogeny, and pointing out the insufficiency of non-telic explanations in that mechanism.johnnyb
August 12, 2006
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BarryA: Actually, I **have** linked (now repeatedly at UD) to discussions of the evidence that disproves Behe's claim in DBB that the verterbate immune system's antigen recombination machinery would doom evolutionary hypotheses to frustration. Not only it didn't, but all the crucial predictions of the very hypothesis Behe originally dismissed have been verified in a series of major papers. That's how science normally proceeds. You can read the original evidence, or the lay discussions of it, and argue its relevance or correctness. I have also linked to a response to Behe's current request for a slow-mo, mutation-by-mutation, population-by-population, selective step-by-selective step, etc-by-etc account of the evolutionary pathway, which you will not find in the literature because that's a demand that cannot be empirically fulfilled for any evolutionary pathway (including that of hemoglobin - which Behe says is plausible - or of things that even traditional Creationists are comfortable with, like antibiotic resistance). We simply cannot get that kind of detail for anything in science, so it that's the new standard, we may just as well close up MIT, the NIH, etc and all go home. I am sorry I can't help you more than that.Andrea
August 12, 2006
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