Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Claimed link between creationism and “conspiracism”

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

All Seeing Eye, Dollar, Conspiracy Theory, Illuminati At Current Biology:

Teleological thinking — the attribution of purpose and a final cause to natural events and entities — has long been identified as a cognitive hindrance to the acceptance of evolution, yet its association to beliefs other than creationism has not been investigated. Here, we show that conspiracism — the proneness to explain socio-historical events in terms of secret and malevolent conspiracies — is also associated to a teleological bias. Across three correlational studies (N > 2000), we found robust evidence of a teleological link between conspiracism and creationism, which was partly independent from religion, politics, age, education, agency detection, analytical thinking and perception of randomness. As a resilient ‘default’ component of early cognition, teleological thinking is thus associated with creationist as well as conspiracist beliefs, which both entail the distant and hidden involvement of a purposeful and final cause to explain complex worldly events. (open access) Pascal Wagner-Egger, Sylvain Delouvée, Nicolas Gauvrit, Sebastian Dieguez, “Creationism and conspiracism share a common teleological bias” at Current Biology , Volume 28, Issue 16, Pr867-r868, August 20, 2018 DOI:https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cub.2018.06.072

Wow. These authors must feel quite threatened. They are really reaching. Their two topics cannot even be equated as concepts: Creationism is a position on a specific subject (origin of life and the universe); conspiracism, which is more commonly called “conspiracy thinking,” is a tendency of thought (it’s all a Big Plot, you see…) which may be applied to any position on any subject.

And, of course, the perception of a plan or a pattern behind events (“teleological thinking”) is not, in isolation, evidence of creationism or conspiracy thinking, though it would be a necessary component of both. It would also be a necessary component of a marketing strategy or a blueprint.

Maybe the authors assume, naively, that their own worldview is simply a neutral, non-biased, non-limited view of the facts. But everyone thinks that about their own worldview. People sheltered by an enforced consensus can afford to assume that their assumption is simply true, hence this kind of stuff gets written and published on a regular basis.

But why do they feel so threatened?

See also: At New York Times: Darwin skeptic Carl Woese “effectively founded a new branch of science” In fairness, many of us DID sense that the people splintering lecterns in favor of Darwin’s Tree of Life were more certain than the facts would turn out to warrant. Every so often, a new poll would announce, to general hand-wringing, that much of the public doesn’t “believe in” evolution. Most of us didn’t fight with anybody about it, we just waited… A world where horizontal gene transfer is a “thing,” (and epigenetics and convergent evolution as well) actually makes a lot more sense from experience than the “selfish gene” world.

and

Sociologist: How ID foxes can beat Darwinian lions

Comments
One can not be a materialist and also believe that teleological explanations are not supported within the framework of science.jdk
August 22, 2018
August
08
Aug
22
22
2018
10:43 AM
10
10
43
AM
PDT
If Jack is not a materialist, as he claims, then he should be fuming over the paper in the OP.ET
August 22, 2018
August
08
Aug
22
22
2018
09:02 AM
9
09
02
AM
PDT
jdk:
I am not a materialist.
Right, you just argue like one.ET
August 22, 2018
August
08
Aug
22
22
2018
09:01 AM
9
09
01
AM
PDT
Folks, do you notice how a very serious ant current issue is consistently being distracted and diverted from? That is no accident. KF PS: I again put the substantial matter back on the table, from 6 above -- citing the article referred to in the OP:
Main Text Although teleological thinking has long been banned from scientific reasoning, [–> banned by whom, on what grounds, when, with what sound inductive warrant, given say discovery of alphanumeric code, thus language that functions algorithmically in the heart of the living cell? Coded language and programs are inherently teleological] it persists in childhood cognition, [–> loaded subtext, implying childishness on the part of the despised, dismissed other] as well as in adult intuitions and beliefs [1 , 2]. [–> “persists” continues in force, so adults who believe that “life on Earth was purposefully created by a supernatural agent” are automatically childish and by definitional fiat antiscience] Noting similarities between creationism (the belief that life on Earth was purposefully created by a supernatural agent) and conspiracism, [–> projection, and guilt by invidious association] we sought to investigate whether teleological thinking [–> dismissed as antiscience by definition at the outset and further silently dismissed as not being possibly true, material evidence having been suppressed] could underlie and associate [–> oh, we are diagnoising your delusions, borderline lunacy] both types of beliefs.
kairosfocus
August 22, 2018
August
08
Aug
22
22
2018
08:55 AM
8
08
55
AM
PDT
I am not a materialist. Make a note, ET.jdk
August 22, 2018
August
08
Aug
22
22
2018
08:37 AM
8
08
37
AM
PDT
Earth to Jack- materialists appeal to any naïve nature. Scientists reach the inference of purpose and intent based on the evidence along with the possible causes. The design inference is NOT easier, Jack. Do you any investigative experience at all? And it remains that to refute any given design inference all one has to do is show that nature is up to then task. Whining about us isn't going to get it doneET
August 22, 2018
August
08
Aug
22
22
2018
08:23 AM
8
08
23
AM
PDT
I like this line form the OP:
As a resilient ‘default’ component of early cognition, teleological thinking is thus associated with creationist as well as conspiracist beliefs, which both entail the distant and hidden involvement of a purposeful and final cause to explain complex worldly events
Children are animists: everything is alive and acts with a purpose. This is a property of "early cognition". Learning to understand how "complex worldly events" are a very multifaceted result of many causal strains, with varying degrees of independence, interdependence and co-dependence, is a learned adult skill. Falling back on mysterious and unverifiable "purposeful and final causes" is easier, and more appealing to our naive nature.jdk
August 22, 2018
August
08
Aug
22
22
2018
08:18 AM
8
08
18
AM
PDT
Oh my. Bob doesn't have a point, Jack. Neither do you. But it is entertaining watching one loser try to stand up for another loserET
August 22, 2018
August
08
Aug
22
22
2018
08:09 AM
8
08
09
AM
PDT
Proving Bob's point.jdk
August 22, 2018
August
08
Aug
22
22
2018
08:03 AM
8
08
03
AM
PDT
Bob O'H:
I’m sorry but I don’t see the point of engaging with you:
There isn't any point in engaging with you, Bob- well just to show how ignorant and desperate anti-IDists are is about it
I have made it clear what I’m looking for,
That just made you look like an immature jerk, Bob.
and your response has been to be uncivil in your response
You are a hypocrite, Bob.
without giving me any relevant answers.
That is your uneducated opinion, anyway. I don't care if you never respond to me, Bob. I will continue to expose you as the loser that you areET
August 22, 2018
August
08
Aug
22
22
2018
07:45 AM
7
07
45
AM
PDT
without giving me any relevant answers Splinter, plank. Andrew
asauber
August 22, 2018
August
08
Aug
22
22
2018
07:41 AM
7
07
41
AM
PDT
BO'H: I must first note that you continue to play a distractive game in a context where a sobering issue of censorship and ideological atmosphere poisoning is on the table. First, functionally specific complex organisation and associated information is a descriptive abbreviation. One that comes down from the likes of Orgel and Wicken BTW [I have simply used an abbreviation, FSCO/I], it long antedates the modern design theory movement. Any reasonable quantification of information in an entity that is functional based on configuration and specific will classify as such. Selective hyperskeptical games to say that any actually calculated values are not FSCO/I simply show that the argument from your side -- even on the tangent -- is evasive not serious. FYI, Durston et al used a framework of calculation which is in the literature and can be seen. Ten years or so ago, I worked with GP and others to draw up a heuristic model that simplifies and applies Dembsky's 2005 metric so that we can address any number of real cases. I took Durston's fits values and took out the threshold to identify bits beyond threshold in the cases cited. Above, I simply used standard estimators of strings and then pointed out that if even 1% of the AAs are specific -- as can be estimated by assessing stability of composition of given proteins across the span of life forms, knowing how proteins fold into domains -- then the fact of 1,000's of proteins in a cell and the length of a typical protein (300 AA) imply that FSCO/I beyond the relevant threshold is present in cells, leading to the warranted inference, design. The onward objection, oh how are protein functions defined is telling on what is increasingly clearly -- this is fair comment -- willful obtuseness. By definition, proteins function, function in ways dependent on specific AA sequence, folding, agglomeration and addition of support elements. The concern is not whether they function, but to what extent AAs can be mutually substituted. That is what Durston et al explored and on that basis they were able to generate the values in their table 1. I simply took their values and applied a threshold where blind search becomes utterly implausible. Going to multicellular organisms we can put the genome on the table. A simple observation that it has been seen that our genome and that of the kangaroo can be compared and will show that huge swathes of the human genome are sitting there in the Kangaroo genome, a marsupial usually rated as separated from placentals what 150 mn ya, indicates that major body plans are also cases of FSCO/I. Reasonable estimation will rapidly show the quantity is 10 - 100+ mn bases, or a comparable number of bits. Going beyond, FSCO/I is not just biological, any system that is constrained based on sufficiently complex structure and interaction of parts has FSCO/I. Text such as comments in this thread are cases in point, closely parallel to genetic information. Structured elements where we can represent a composite or shaped component based on a nodes-arcs pattern are also cases in point and I have long since pointed to cases of AutoCAD drawing files. This is the context in which I can readily point to trillions of cases. Start with the Internet. Your objections that no values have been shown, no calculations have been given and the like are without merit, period. Now, we return to the context, where digital empires are practising sobering ideological censorship, and YouTube (a province of IIRC Google) was just seen putting warningt labels to marginalise one side of the climate debate. Above, using dubious definitions, the same marginalisation proceeds apace. Where, "right wing . . . nationalistic" has been twisted to mean in effect Nazi. Which is slander as starting from the meaning of Nazi will instantly reveal: National Socialist German Worker's Party. Fascism was an ideology of the left, and Nazism is generally seen as a form thereof. Political messianism which is totalitarian-statist and centres on a superman figure seen as saviour of the central identity group in the face of allegedly unprecedented crises that demand that he be given dictatorial powers to act decisively beyond law. Ideological messianism is idolatry, FYI. As the Barmen Declaration forthrightly declared, it is anti-Christ. The associated tendency to accuse Christians of being right wing Christo-fascists seeking to overturn science and erect a totalitarian theocracy is a slander, one of grave import given what is already on the table. I sum up, censorship, stereotyping, scapegoating and smearing based on dubious historical allusions are extremely dangerous. Above, I could readily see that something is seriously wrong, something you have studiously avoided by successive tangents based on a misrepresentation of FSCO/I. Let me clip from 6, taking up the main text of the article referenced in the OP:
Main Text Although teleological thinking has long been banned from scientific reasoning, [–> banned by whom, on what grounds, when, with what sound inductive warrant, given say discovery of alphanumeric code, thus language that funcyions algorithmically in the heart of the living cell? Coded language and programs are inherently teleological] it persists in childhood cognition, [–> loaded subtext, implying childishness on the part of the despised, dismissed other] as well as in adult intuitions and beliefs [1 , 2]. [–> “persists” continues in force, so adults who believe that “life on Earth was purposefully created by a supernatural agent” are automatically childish and by definitional fiat antiscience] Noting similarities between creationism (the belief that life on Earth was purposefully created by a supernatural agent) and conspiracism, [–> projection, and guilt by invidious association] we sought to investigate whether teleological thinking [–> dismissed as antiscience by definition at the outset and further silently dismissed as not being possibly true, material evidence having been suppressed] could underlie and associate [–> oh, we are diagnoising your delusions, borderline lunacy] both types of beliefs.
This is evidence of destructive ideological captivity of science and of creation of a narrative of scapegoating that has now moved on to censorship. This sets out down a road that has a known end: gulags. I suggest, you would be well advised to do some serious rethinking about what you are enabling. KFkairosfocus
August 22, 2018
August
08
Aug
22
22
2018
07:41 AM
7
07
41
AM
PDT
ET, I'm sorry but I don't see the point of engaging with you: I have made it clear what I'm looking for, and your response has been to be uncivil in your response, without giving me any relevant answers.Bob O'H
August 22, 2018
August
08
Aug
22
22
2018
07:40 AM
7
07
40
AM
PDT
Bob O'H:
Table 1 gives some numbers, but no definitions
What definitions are you looking for Bob? Whether right or wrong scientists assume the people reading their papers have a minimal educationET
August 22, 2018
August
08
Aug
22
22
2018
07:20 AM
7
07
20
AM
PDT
*sigh* ET - Table 1 gives some numbers, but no definitions.Bob O'H
August 22, 2018
August
08
Aug
22
22
2018
07:13 AM
7
07
13
AM
PDT
Bob O'H:
Tell me where he defines the functions of the proteins he analyses and come back.
Wow. You can look those up, duh.ET
August 22, 2018
August
08
Aug
22
22
2018
07:08 AM
7
07
08
AM
PDT
FSC of Selected Proteins EnjoyET
August 22, 2018
August
08
Aug
22
22
2018
06:57 AM
6
06
57
AM
PDT
Bob- So proteins don't have functions, Bob? The body just cranks out proteins just because? You do realize it was Crick who defined information with respect to biology, right, Bob? Functional sequence complexity is FSCO/I, Bob. Your willful ignorance isn't even an argument.ET
August 22, 2018
August
08
Aug
22
22
2018
06:54 AM
6
06
54
AM
PDT
re 12: Perhaps briefing notes should be, you know, brief. :-)jdk
August 22, 2018
August
08
Aug
22
22
2018
06:52 AM
6
06
52
AM
PDT
ET - read the paper. Tell me where he defines the functions of the proteins he analyses and come back. That has to be specific, so that one can then look at the space of AA sequences that provide the function. This is then next thing that I can't find.Bob O'H
August 22, 2018
August
08
Aug
22
22
2018
06:43 AM
6
06
43
AM
PDT
Bob O'H:
I also can’t find how he defines function, which seems important.
Buy a dictionary. Are you really that daft that you don't understand what "function" means? Really? Is that supposed to be an argument? Really? Find a sequence of DNA that codes for a protein/ enzyme that is used to do something, ie provides a FUNCTION. Then, using Shannon, calculate the sequence information (2 bits per nucleotide per Shannon). Once you get that you would have to determine how much variation that sequence can maintain and still provide that protein for that function.ET
August 22, 2018
August
08
Aug
22
22
2018
06:28 AM
6
06
28
AM
PDT
kf @ 12 - I'm sorry, I can't see where FSCO/I is calculated on that page. I'm asking for something specific, but which should be basic in the presentation of a numerical method.Bob O'H
August 22, 2018
August
08
Aug
22
22
2018
06:28 AM
6
06
28
AM
PDT
kf - you give some numbers, but which is FSCO/I? And how is it calculated? Durston does not, as far as I understand it, calculate FCSO/I: certainly that acronym doesn't appear in the paper you link to. I also can't find how he defines function, which seems important.Bob O'H
August 22, 2018
August
08
Aug
22
22
2018
05:42 AM
5
05
42
AM
PDT
F/N: I dug up a briefing note I did nearly a decade ago, here. Let's see if BO'H is now willing to correct his talking-point and to stay corrected on it. KFkairosfocus
August 22, 2018
August
08
Aug
22
22
2018
05:31 AM
5
05
31
AM
PDT
AS, I looked up the abstract:
ABSTRACT In their article ‘Cool dudes: The denial of climate change among conservative white males in the United States’ the authors state: ‘Clearly the extent to which the conservative white male effect on climate change denial exists outside the US is a topic deserving investigation.’ Following this recommendation, we report results from a study in Norway. McCright and Dunlap argue that climate change denial can be understood as an expression of protecting group identity and justifying a societal system that provides desired benefits. Our findings resemble those in the US study. A total of 63 per cent of conservative males in Norway do not believe in anthropogenic climate change, as opposed to 36 per cent among the rest of the population who deny climate change and global warming. Expanding on the US study, we investigate whether conservative males more often hold what we term xenosceptic views, and if that adds to the ‘cool dude-effect’.1 Multivariate logistic regression models reveal strong effects from a variable measuring ‘xenosceptic cool dudes’. Interpreting xenoscepticism as a rough proxy for right leaning views, climate change denial in Norway seems to merge with broader patterns of right-wing nationalism.
These folks seem to be blissfully unaware that if they impose ideological redefinitions of what science is, suppress legitimate scientific discussion and plaster namecalling labels backed up by studies that turn on the fact that polarisations tend to come in ideological, party-aligned clusters, they are destroying the objectivity of science thus its credibility. Multiply by the menace of censorship we are seeing and the road they are dragging us down becomes obvious. No sane civilisation would go down that road. KFkairosfocus
August 22, 2018
August
08
Aug
22
22
2018
05:27 AM
5
05
27
AM
PDT
BO'H: You seem to forget that many examples were given over and over across years of real life values, and that in principle they have been on the table ever since the beginnings of the genetic revolution. For just one quick example, a protein has 4.32 bits raw per AA [20 state string data structure], so a typical 300 bit protein has 1296 bits, raw; there are thousands of proteins in a living cell so that if even 1% of that raw value are functionally specific, the living cell is indisputably well beyond the FSCO/I threshold. More to the point, the alphanumerical algorithmic information in the cell is obviously linguistic and goal-directed [making proteins used to carry out key life functions] thus teleological. We can do more sophisticated calculations, and Durston's work has been in the literature since 2007. Your assertion is false and has been notoriously false for over a decade. Meanwhile, your enabling side-tracks from a sobering, even menacing issue that is on the table are duly noted. KFkairosfocus
August 22, 2018
August
08
Aug
22
22
2018
05:20 AM
5
05
20
AM
PDT
In other news: "Eye-roller study: “Climate change denial strongly linked to right-wing nationalism” https://wattsupwiththat.com/2018/08/21/eye-roller-study-climate-change-denial-strongly-linked-to-right-wing-nationalism/ It's amazing how political enemies pop up everywhere in scientific studies. Andrewasauber
August 22, 2018
August
08
Aug
22
22
2018
05:19 AM
5
05
19
AM
PDT
F/N2: We thus see how corrupting was the radical, question-begging redefinition of science as applied atheism. This now needs to be corrected, exposed and decisively repudiated. Further to this, suppression of freedom of thought and expression through the sort of censorship we are seeing marks a first step down a road we have seen in all too indelible living memory -- it is fair to ask: is that why the apparatchiks wanted to suppress a life story based advert for a candidate who is the daughter of refugees from Cambodia? The road we are seeing, on terrible history, ends in the gulag. KFkairosfocus
August 22, 2018
August
08
Aug
22
22
2018
05:09 AM
5
05
09
AM
PDT
kf @ 5 -
Kindly show us just one actual observation of FSCO/I beyond 500 – 1,000 bits arising by blind chance and/or mechanical necessity.
A couple of years ago there were regular challenges to you and other people on this site to give a calculation of FSCO/I for a real example. None was ever forthcoming. I can't give any observation because I haven't seen any calculation of FSCO/I for a real system. If not even the developers of FSCO/I can use it, how can anyone else?Bob O'H
August 22, 2018
August
08
Aug
22
22
2018
05:04 AM
5
05
04
AM
PDT
F/N: If proof of utterly question-begging ideological loading is needed, kindly observe how the main text of the article begins:
Main Text Although teleological thinking has long been banned from scientific reasoning, [--> banned by whom, on what grounds, when, with what sound inductive warrant, given say discovery of alphanumeric code, thus language that funcyions algorithmically in the heart of the living cell? Coded language and programs are inherently teleological] it persists in childhood cognition, [--> loaded subtext, implying childishness on the part of the despised, dismissed other] as well as in adult intuitions and beliefs [1 , 2]. [--> "persists" continues in force, so adults who believe that "life on Earth was purposefully created by a supernatural agent" are automatically childish and by definitional fiat antiscience] Noting similarities between creationism (the belief that life on Earth was purposefully created by a supernatural agent) and conspiracism, [--> projection, and guilt by invidious association] we sought to investigate whether teleological thinking [--> dismissed as antiscience by definition at the outset and further silently dismissed as not being possibly true, material evidence having been suppressed] could underlie and associate [--> oh, we are diagnoising your delusions, borderline lunacy] both types of beliefs.
See the problems? Then, given the rise of ideological censorship by digital empires, this all takes on menacing overtones. We need to wake up fast. KFkairosfocus
August 22, 2018
August
08
Aug
22
22
2018
04:26 AM
4
04
26
AM
PDT
1 2 3 4 5

Leave a Reply