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Coming to grips with specified complexity

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Measuring it:

One of the central requirements of design arguments is to evaluate the probability of patterns emerging through undirected processes. Examples of evaluation schema have included Behe’s irreducible complexity, Ewert et al.’s algorithmic specified complexity (ASC), and Hazen et al.’s functional information. In my previous article, I focused on the last measure. All of these approaches attempt to quantify what is termed specified complexity, which characterizes complex patterns containing meaningful (i.e., specified) information. The various approaches have been generalized by computer scientist George Montañez (see here and here). He enumerated the core steps for constructing and evaluating any measure of specified complexity:

1. Determine the probability distribution for observed events based on assumed mechanisms. In other words, identify for each possible event the probability for it to occur.

2. Define a function that assigns to each event a specificity value.

3. Calculate the canonical specified complexity for an outcome by taking the negative log (base 2) of the specified complexity kardis, which is the ratio of the event’s probability to its specificity value multiplied by a scaling factor.

4. Determine the likelihood for an event to occur resulting from any proposed mechanism with the assumed probability distribution. The upper probability is equal to the kardis. If the probability is exceedingly small, the claim that the outcome occurred through the proposed mechanism can be rejected with high confidence.

Brian Miller, “The Information Enigma: Going Deeper” at Evolution News and Science Today:

Provided we are still allowed to have the discussion, of course.

Comments
Before this thread dies out completely can I just say that . . . The underlying paper: A Unified Model of Complex Specified Information by George D Monañez is badly written and overly dense. It's way too hard to figure out what he's saying or to follow his examples. I can do it but its ideas could have been presented much more clearly. I don't think anyone will be using the outlined procedures to measure CSI. There is a really simple example but applying the same technique to a biological example . . . I wish the person making the attempt the best of luck. Anyway, if anyone else wants to discuss the mathematics let me know.JVL
June 30, 2020
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ET: note 7: Here, as in other parts of the paper, we abuse notation slightly so that g(x) denotes the level of function for configuration x with respect to g. Good catch! That is a real abuse of notation! So, again, what is x? For the particular example with coin flips. We would like to test the hypothesis that our coin flipper is fair using a canonical specified complexity model. Yup, you were right, I got that wrong. I was thinking about a null hypothesis but that's not their approach. ET: 2 points. Also, when someone says “decreases without any limit” the “for infinity” is understood and doesn’t have to be stated. The only added word is “any”. Decreases without limit is how the big boys say it. I won't quibble, we're talking about the same phenomena and I was just remembering how I heard it referred to.JVL
June 29, 2020
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JVL:
With respect to g? Nope.
The paper:
note 7: Here, as in other parts of the paper, we abuse notation slightly so that g(x) denotes the level of function for configuration x with respect to g.
JVL:
It’s assumed the coin flipper is fair!
The paper:
We would like to test the hypothesis that our coin flipper is fair using a canonical specified complexity model.
JVL:
More math lessons tomorrow,
You need reading lessons, first. Also, when someone says "decreases without any limit" the "for infinity" is understood and doesn't have to be stated. The only added word is "any". Decreases without limit is how the big boys say it.ET
June 28, 2020
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ET: The variable which is the defined sequence- configuration x with respect to g With respect to g? Nope. It looks like plotting different sequences of coin flips to determine if the electronic coin flipper is fair. The more samples, ie sequences, you have the better your analysis will be. It's assumed the coin flipper is fair! Duh!! More math lessons tomorrow, it's late here.JVL
June 28, 2020
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JVL, when the proper question is asked the answer is easier to give.
What is x in g(x) then?
The variable which is the defined sequence- configuration x with respect to g It looks like plotting different sequences of coin flips to determine if the electronic coin flipper is fair. The more samples, ie sequences, you have the better your analysis will be.ET
June 28, 2020
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Upright BiPed @121: I see your student failed the simplest question twice?OLV
June 28, 2020
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Forget probabilities. The real equation that Darwinian macro-evolutionary ideas fail to satisfy is the widely documented "evo-devo" conundrum: Dev(d) = Dev(a) + Delta(a,d)OLV
June 28, 2020
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.
UB: To synthesize an aaRS from heritable memory requires the heritable memory, does it not JVL? JVL: I do not know UB: JVL, to synthesize an aaRS from heritable memory requires the heritable memory, does it not? JVL: I told you I didn’t know the answer to that.
Perspective.Upright BiPed
June 28, 2020
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ET: In the equation I cited- g(x) can be as large as L/2 or as low as zero. Correct! See, that wasn't so hard. What is x in g(x) then?JVL
June 28, 2020
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LoL! If YOU can't do the basic math, then we are done. You keep moving the goalpost. In the equation I cited- g(x) can be as large as L/2 or as low as zero.ET
June 28, 2020
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ET: No, you are not clear. You are playing games. And I told you what you can do with that. If you can't even do the basic math in the example then I guess we're done. It's dead easy to figure out what the minimum and maximum values of g(x) are in terms of i for that particular example. And it's not 0 and 1 no matter what else the paper says in other places. If it contradicts itself it's not my fault. All you have to do is pick a value for l and try different values of k. Simple. It's a bit harder to say what x can be considering how badly written the paper is.JVL
June 28, 2020
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No, you are not clear. You are playing games. And I told you what you can do with that.ET
June 28, 2020
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ET: A fair coin toss. Only because I don’t have any idea what you are talking about. I was very clear. g(x) is 0 or 1 or any positive number between 0 and 1: That is incorrect for that particular example. Read that particular definition of g(x) again. Pick a value for l and try different values of k and answer again. Also, you failed to say what x could be.JVL
June 28, 2020
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JVL:
Yes, I know, I read the pertinent part of the paper.
You need to read the entire paper. It is all pertinent.
You initially said g(3) was a coin toss.
A fair coin toss. Only because I don't have any idea what you are talking about. g(x) is 0 or 1 or any positive number between 0 and 1:
We assume function g is scaled so that maximum function occurs when g(x) = 1 and g(x) = 0 corresponds to no detectable core function activity.
ET
June 28, 2020
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ET: Yes, I know, I read the pertinent part of the paper. You initially said g(3) was a coin toss. So, in the definition of g(x), what is x? Can it be a number? What is the maximum and mininum values that g(x) can take?JVL
June 28, 2020
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JVL:
One toss or a sequence of coin tosses?
You are not making any sense: The function g : X ? R?0 therefore measures the degree to which the sequence diverges from the expected number of heads, which can be formally computed by g(x) = |k - L`/2| where k is the number of heads observed in a sequence of L` flips.ET
June 28, 2020
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ET: A fair coin toss. One toss or a sequence of coin tosses? What's the difference between g(3) and g(4)?JVL
June 28, 2020
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A fair coin toss.ET
June 28, 2020
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ET: It means we are not here to explain things to you that you can read for yourself. In the original paper: A Unified Model of Complex Specified Information by George Montañez there's an applied example in section 6.2. In that example what is g(3)?JVL
June 28, 2020
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JVL:
I first wanted to know if any of the frequent commenters here understood the parts that confused me better than I did and they didn’t seem to have any explanations.
Wow. YOU are supposed to read the article so it can be discussed. Don't blame us for your willful ignorance. It means we are not here to explain things to you that you can read for yourself.ET
June 28, 2020
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RP:
JVL you claim that steps two and three of this procedure don’t make any sense and aren’t workable. In all of the replies to you, has anybody shown you that they are workable?
The article discusses it. The article neither of you have read.ET
June 28, 2020
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RP you poorer fellow:
JBL has shown that the mathematical procedure ID supporters have claimed is mathematically impossible.
No, he has not.
Nobody here has explained how it’s actually possible with a living organism.
Why do we need to? There isn't any probability that undirected processes can produce a living organism. There isn't a way to test the claim.
The information content of a cell can’t be computed exactly by anyone to this day.
We do not need do it exactly. As I said no one has a scientific alternative to ID, period. That said I did link to a peer-reviewed paper that calculates the functional information of some proteins.ET
June 28, 2020
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Retired Physicist: you claim that steps two and three of this procedure don’t make any sense and aren’t workable. In all of the replies to you, has anybody shown you that they are workable? Not that I recall. I was castigated for not having read the source paper behind the Discovery Institute post and I have got that now and will try and see if some of my questions were answered. I first wanted to know if any of the frequent commenters here understood the parts that confused me better than I did and they didn't seem to have any explanations. Or chose not to offer them. I don't know if that means they hadn't read the source paper either (except to point out that the author defined "Kardis" which I still think is a weird term to use but whatever) or they had read it and still couldn't address my queries. Which could mean even the original paper doesn't clear up those issues or those who read it didn't understand it. I'm going to have a go right now while it's raining where I am and see if something become clearer.JVL
June 28, 2020
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JVL you claim that steps two and three of this procedure don’t make any sense and aren’t workable. In all of the replies to you, has anybody shown you that they are workable?Retired Physicist
June 28, 2020
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ET: That doesn’t make any sense as negative infinity isn’t a place to go to. Yeah, I know; but that's what is said. I think some people say "tends to negative infinity". Anyway, I guess you go towards something even if you never get there. Which ever way, it does all make it sound like 'infinity' is a place or endpoint which it isn't.JVL
June 28, 2020
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So you can’t do the procedure either, huh. You really should consider what that means.Retired Physicist
June 28, 2020
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RP, You are drawing a conclusion that makes you happy from a spat between two people, one of whom hasn't even read the paper (JVL). Some things (such as the algorithmic complexity of something) cannot be computed exactly, even in principle. The information content of a cell can't be computed exactly by anyone to this day. Bounds can be set, and they will get tighter. You should temper your excitement.EDTA
June 27, 2020
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@ET oh you poor fella. JBL has shown that the mathematical procedure ID supporters have claimed is mathematically impossible. Nobody here has explained how it’s actually possible with a living organism. It’s fake math, designed for show. The responses to the thread demonstrate that nobody can actually calculate it for a real life event. It’s not real math, and you guys apparently can’t demonstrate otherwise.Retired Physicist
June 27, 2020
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JVL:
The normal way of describing the limit in this case is that it goes to negative infinity...
That doesn't make any sense as negative infinity isn't a place to go to.ET
June 27, 2020
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JVL, you are evading the substance. Kardis is simply another term for core or heart, here: >>Accordingly, we demon-strate the connection for canonical specified complexity models, where the model core (called a kardis) plays the same role as a p-value under a null distribution.>> In short the point is that we have FSCO/I which is maximally implausible under blind chance and/or mechanical necessity, but is quite readily explained on intelligently directed configuration. Where this core point manifests itself in various models and metrics. He (UD's Atom) then goes on:
De?nition 2 (Common Form and Kardis). For any probability distribution p(x) on space X , any strictly positive scaling constant r [in] R_+ and any nonnegative function v : X --> R GRT/EQ 0 , we de?ne a common form model as SC(x) := - log_2 r *{p(x)/v(x)} (2) with specified complexity kardis k(x) = r(p(x)/v(x)).
Thus, k(x) is given a specific definition. Specified complexity is the info value corresponding to k, in bits. KFkairosfocus
June 27, 2020
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