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Common Descent, Common Design, and ID

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Mung had asked me to do a thread on common descent and common design. So, anyway, I’ll get things started by stating my own thoughts on these ideas. I intend this to be an open discussion, but I also find having a starting idea tends to help get things started.

So, as I have maintained for the last decade, I believe there is no fundamental conflict between ID and common descent. That is, it is fully possible to hold to both at the same time.

In fact, I would say that ID *potentially solves* many problems that common descent would bring. For instance, if you have gaps that are unbridgeable by a traditional Darwinian mechanism, you could posit that there was a prior source of information that the organism used to bridge the gap.

That being said, I don’t myself hold to common descent. If so, how does one explain the commonalities of organisms? The common explanation of this is “common design”. That is, since the same designer was designing these organisms, then we should expect repeated motifs to be used to solve various problems, various design ideas presented with variation, etc. The question is, is there a way to distinguish common design and common descent?

Well, to start with, common descent can actually be a mechanism for implementing common design. Therefore, inferring common design doesn’t necessarily tell you much about common descent.

Additionally problematic is that common descent actually depends on having a specific model of the origin of life. To understand this, let us say that instead of being rare, life comes about rather easily, but ALWAYS in the SAME WAY (i.e., builds the same starting organism, which we’ll call X). Therefore, if you find two X’s, there is NO WAY to tell if they are related by ancestry, despite the fact that they are identical! Let us then say that X is likely to branch to Y and then Z. Again, we could easily have two Zs that share NO common ancestors!

As you can see, inferring common descent as a definite conclusion requires a number of auxiliary hypotheses. These may or may not be reasonable, but they are there. However, *rejecting* common descent can be done with fewer.

Rejecting common descent can be done in one of two ways that I can think of:

  1. Have a model that better fits the character space of organisms, or
  2. Show that certain gaps are unbridgeable genetically.

#1 I believe has been done (at least on an initial basis) by Winston Ewert, with his dependency graph model. #2 is harder because, as I mentioned, in theory there could be repositories of information that help you close the gap. However, you could show that #2 *requires* information to close the gap, and then look and see if any such information repositories are known. Obviously, we might find information repositories in the future, but the question always is about what can we do with the knowledge we do have without overly-worrying about the knowledge we don’t have.

Anyway, along these lines, I think that Stephen Meyer has done a fairly good job with #2 in Darwin’s Doubt, where he discusses the origin of the phyla.

In short, ID can work inside or outside a Common Descent framework. However, ID also allows more degrees of freedom in biological thought, and many in the ID movement feel that the evidence against common descent outweighs the evidence for it. That means that many of the similarities in organisms are the results of common design and not common descent, but there is no logical contradiction in asserting both.

Those are my thoughts – what are yours?

Comments
Universal common descent lacks a mechanism.
Some groups of organisms are a lot more similar than others, and if they were all designed by a single designer, we’d expect them to all show roughly the same level of similarity.
That doesn't follow.ET
April 16, 2021
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Let me try to give you an my view, as an evolutionist (but note that I'm not an actual biologist, just an interested amateur). First, I completely agree that ID and common descent don't conflict at all. Consider the possible combinations: 1. Common descent without intelligent input (the standard evolution view) 2. Common descent with intelligent input 3. Intelligent design without common descent 4. Neither common ancestry or common descent Right off the bat, I think we can discard combo #4. That'd be something like the old theory of spontaneous generation (e.g. crocodiles forming from the mud of the Nile) or maybe Lamarck's theory of evolution (evolution of separate, non-branching lineages). I don't think anyone takes these seriously anymore, and I certainly don't see any reason to. Next, I think the evidence for common ancestry is overwhelmingly strong. I consider Ewert's "Dependency Graph" model the first even-vaguely-workable alternative, but I think even it needs a lot more work before it can be taken seriously. I'll try to get a chance to come back and address it in more detail, but in the meantime I'll recommend that those who doubt common ancestry read the introduction to his paper (the first two pages), since IMO he does a pretty good job of explaining why something like his model is needed. Just invoking common design doesn't work as an alternative explanation, because what needs to be explained isn't just that organisms are similar, it's the pattern of similarities and differences. Some groups of organisms are a lot more similar than others, and if they were all designed by a single designer, we'd expect them to all show roughly the same level of similarity. Well, ok, it's more complicated than that. For one thing, some of the similarities and differences between organisms are certainly due to functional constraint. If a single designer had designed both some cars and some airplanes, you'd naturally expect the cars to resemble each other more than they did the airplanes. (And BTW the same thing applies under evolution, under the heading "convergent evolution".) But there are similarities and differences between organisms that can't be explained by functional similarity at all. Take, for example, 5 species: great white sharks, whale sharks, orcas, humpback whales, and hippos. Functionally speaking, the first 4 all seem obviously more similar (fish-like-swimming-things), with the hippos as outliers. The great whites and orcas are even more functionally similar (both top predators), as are the whale shark and humpback (both filter feeders). But as far as anatomy, biochemistry, etc are concerned, it's a completely different story: the great white and whale shark are quite similar, as are the orcas and humpbacks; and the whales are actually much closer to the hippo than to the sharks! I suppose you could propose that there were two different designers at work here, one of whom did the sharks, and a different one did the whales and hippos. But that doesn't work either, since these similarity groups occur at multiple levels in a rough hierarchy. If you posit one designer for the mammals (incl. whales and hippos) and another for the sharks, you're left unable to explain the similarities they both share vs. invertebrates, let alone plants, bacteria, etc. You'd also be unable to explain the patterns of differences within those groups. So, until and unless something like Ewert's proposal can be fleshed out and tested well enough to be taken seriously, I think we need to (provisionally) accept common ancestry, and discard combo #3. This actually has serious consequences for the evolution vs. ID debate, because it means that phrasing of the debate is wrong. It really should be evolution with ID vs. evolution without ID. If current organisms are descended from distant ancestors, they've inevitably been affected by the usual evolutionary mechanisms of change (mutation, selection, genetic drift, etc), the real question is what else they've been affected by. In other words, the real debate shouldn't be about how correct evolutionary theory is, it's about how complete it is. (I should maybe clarify that I don't think anyone claims that current evolutionary theory is entirely complete. Evolutionary theory has to take into account everything that causes changes to gene pools over time, in much the same way that chemistry has to take into account all the various things that cause changes to molecules and astronomy has to take into account all the various things that float around in space; as such, they all resemble ever-expanding catalogs of all of the things we've discovered that affect gene pools/affect molecules/exist in outer space.)Gordon Davisson
April 16, 2021
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The only problem with universal common descent is there aren't any known mechanisms capable of producing the diversity of life starting with some unknown populations of prokaryotes. Common design explains the similarities. No need to reinvent biologically relevant macromolecules for every organism. Linnaean classification was based on a common design.ET
April 16, 2021
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off the top of my head: no bones ... bones.... 150 years of Darwinism and still no evidence of bones evolution.... this is so absurd.....again,... no bones ... bones/fully developed skeletons... just so ... Darwinian magic... another example (my favorite one): Viruses - the most abundant biological entity on Earth and Darwinists have no idea where viruses come from... common descent concept does not work with viruses, because viruses are not made of cells. from Virology.ws (Darwinists): "In a phylogenetic tree, the characteristics of members of taxa are inherited from previous ancestors. Viruses cannot be included in the tree of life because they do not share characteristics with cells, and no single gene is shared by all viruses or viral lineages. While cellular life has a single, common origin, viruses are polyphyletic – they have many evolutionary origins."martin_r
April 16, 2021
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JVL: Character space is a concept used in taxonomy to think about variations in different characteristics of organisms. For instance, organs and organ features would be characters within character space. Length of arms, shape of feet, presence/absence of bones, presence/absence of tissues, etc. These are all characters in character space.johnnyb
April 16, 2021
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AaronS1978 - that's certainly an interesting direction! It basically solves the problem of generating complexity by saying it was available at the beginning, and the modern gaps are due to differential discarding rather than differential gaining. It would be interesting to try to put that together to see what the original toolkit might look like. In other words, which pieces are required to be at the beginning, and which can be thought of as derivative of those originals.johnnyb
April 16, 2021
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I would almost say that ID is more of a toolbox theory All organisms came with the same toolbox and then use the tools differently for the situation that they were in Each organism ending up using a different set of genetic tools to solve a problem Throwing away old tools that were just taking up much needed spaceAaronS1978
April 16, 2021
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Johnnyb: character space . . . Can you define that term please?JVL
April 16, 2021
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One other thing to note - many proofs of common descent rely on a ridiculous null hypothesis about the alternatives.johnnyb
April 16, 2021
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