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“Competence” in the Field of Evolutionary Biology

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Thomas Cudworth in his post here referenced “…being competent in the field of evolutionary biology.”

My question is, What does it mean to be “competent” in the field of evolutionary biology?

It seems to me that it would mean providing hard empirical evidence that the mechanism of random variation/mutation and natural selection which is known to exist (e.g., bacterial antibiotic resistance) can be extrapolated to explain the highly functionally integrated information-processing machinery of the cell — at a very minimum! This empirical demonstration should be a prerequisite, before we even begin to entertain speculation about how this mechanism produced body plans and the human brain.

Yet, the theoretically most “highly competent” evolutionary biologists never even attempt to address this requirement. They just wave their hands, make up increasingly bizarre, mathematically absurd, unsubstantiated stories out of whole cloth (like co-option), declare that the solution has been found, and that anyone who questions them is a religious fanatic.

This is the antithesis of legitimate scientific investigation.

My definition of competence in the field of evolutionary biology is Michael Behe, who has actually empirically investigated the limitations of the creative powers of the Darwinian mechanism. The conclusion is clear: It can do some stuff, but not much of any ultimate significance, and cannot possibly be extrapolated to explain what Darwinists expect us to accept through blind faith, in defiance of all reason and evidence.

Comments
tsmith:
And something Ms. Liddle and all the other followers of Darwin here have yet to answer is, what is the probability that a new beneficial mutation will be lost due to ‘chance’ alone?
I have already answered this. The answer is “high”.
Haldane’s dilemma
Actually Haldane's dilemma is a little different. It's closer to ScottAndrews' scenario http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haldane%27s_dilemmaElizabeth Liddle
July 11, 2011
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Population geneticists even have equations for it. In my example I used tiny changes because those are the only sort that individual mutations can account for. But the implication is that such tiny changes, each originating in a single organism, add up to staggering, varied works of art, marvels of engineering, and ingenuous behaviors. And supposedly each mutation must survive and propagate, despite conferring at best mininal benefit, until it meets up with several more and finally accomplishes something. (Wow, that sounds an awful lot like foresight and planning.) I hope no one reads the cited comment and gets the mistaken impression that there are verifiable formulas for such things or even specific hypotheses to explain them. I wonder how many times people read that 'x happens and then y happens and then z happens' and because of the confident wording they never realize that no one has ever seen x, y, or z.ScottAndrews
July 11, 2011
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velikovskys: I didn't establish the criterion of peer-reviewed publications. If you followed the Dover trial, and all the nasty blogging against ID that has occurred ever since, you will know that the criterion of peer-reviewed publications comes from the ID critics, not from me. I'm merely applying the criterion to those who loudly insist upon it. Can they meet their own standard for good science? gpuccio: Good to hear from you. Can you name me a paper *in evolutionary biology*, either published in a peer-reviewed secular journal, or read at a secular biology or evolution conference, published or read in the past ten years, by Ken Miller, by Larry Moran, by P. Z. Myers, by Eugenie Scott, or by any of the regular or frequent columnists at Biologos? That's what I'm asking for. Peer-reviewed material by full-time evolutionary biologists is another matter. I'm not denying that publications by Coyne and Carroll and Margulis and Lima de Faria exist. The question is whether most of our critics are competent to speak about the field in which they are making dogmatic statements.Thomas Cudworth
July 11, 2011
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And something Ms. Liddle and all the other followers of Darwin here have yet to answer is, what is the probability that a new beneficial mutation will be lost due to ‘chance’ alone? I have already answered this. The answer is “high”.
Haldane's dilemmatsmith
July 11, 2011
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tural selection operates at the level of the organism not at the level of the cell.
definition:
the process by which forms of life having traits that better enable them to adapt to specific environmental pressures, as predators, changes in climate, or competition for food or mates, will tend to survive and reproduce in greater numbers than others of their kind, thus ensuring the perpetuation of those favorable traits in succeeding generations.
is a meaningless tautology. whats a favorable trait? one that helps it survive...how do we know its a favorable trait? it helps it survive. survival of the fittest meaningless and uesless just like evolution itself....as even Coyne has admitted.tsmith
July 11, 2011
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ScottAndrews:
Mung what is the probability that a new beneficial mutation will be lost due to ‘chance’ alone? This doesn’t get mentioned nearly enough. How is the effect of a single beneficial mutation great enough to ensure survival and reproduction?
It probably isn't. That doesn't matter. Nothing "ensure[s] survival and reproduction" it only raises the likelihood of doing so in a specific environment.
How many times does an astronomically unlikely* complimentary set of mutations for some minor improvement in digestion or immune response get erased because the creature gets picked off by a predator before reproduces?
Not very often, because it is astronomically unlikely, as you say, for a compimentary set of mutations for a minor improvement in digestion or immune response to arise in the same individual. What is far more likely is that they arise separately in different individuals, who then breed, each one propagating by drift so that they are possessed by relatively large numbers of the population, and thus quite likely to coincided in a number of individuals, who then, in aggregate, will tend to produce more offspring than those who do not possess the relevant combo.
No one factors that in when they imagine this constant, incremental process in which beneficial mutations increase fitness, get selected, etc., etc.
Well, yes, they do. Almost everyone does. Population geneticists even have equations for it.
*I realize that use of this phrase invites mockery, because only an ignorant rube takes the likelihood of events into account, and the burden is entirely on me to calculate just how unlikely they are.
Not at all. You are absolutely right. The probability of many interactively advantageous mutations occurring all together in a single freakishly lucky offspring are astronomically low, and, indeed, if the advantage is small, the poor kid might get zapped by something quite different anyway. And even if it bred, it's only going to have one copy of each of these amazing new alleles, so it's only going to hand half of them, on average to its offspring, who then won't have the magic combo. But then nobody actually postulates that that's how polygeneic traits actually arise!Elizabeth Liddle
July 11, 2011
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Mung what is the probability that a new beneficial mutation will be lost due to ‘chance’ alone? This doesn't get mentioned nearly enough. How is the effect of a single beneficial mutation great enough to ensure survival and reproduction? How many times does an astronomically unlikely* complimentary set of mutations for some minor improvement in digestion or immune response get erased because the creature gets picked off by a predator before reproduces? No one factors that in when they imagine this constant, incremental process in which beneficial mutations increase fitness, get selected, etc., etc. *I realize that use of this phrase invites mockery, because only an ignorant rube takes the likelihood of events into account, and the burden is entirely on me to calculate just how unlikely they are.ScottAndrews
July 11, 2011
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TC So I’m giving these people the chance to disprove my hypothesis by writing in and telling us what they have published, and what conferences they have read papers at. I will take silence as confirmation of my hypothesis. What is your expertise in judging whether or not this is a valid criteria?Are you applying the same standard to Darwin critics? Should't they demonstrate the same?velikovskys
July 11, 2011
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Thomas Cudworth @4 -
By “competent” I meant competent as understood by current practitioners, i.e., by scientists whose full-time job is evolutionary biology. ... I’m implying only that some people are far more versed in the evolutionary biology literature than others, i.e., keep up with the latest theoretical models and the latest data, while others “keep up” only by reading Scientific American.
This seems reasonable to me. I'd guess that Miller, Moran and Myers all keep up with the primary literature, and hence would be considered competent in the field. Falk & Venema may not be - their expertise seem to be in molecular and developmental biology (I may be doing them a dis-service: I don't know their work at all. It's a long way from what I do). I don't know how much effort Genie Scott puts into keeping up with the literature, so I can't comment on her.
It’s my working hypothesis that Miller, Falk, Venema, Moran, Myers, Pennock, Scott, etc., would not be considered competent *in current evolutionary theory* by the vast majority of full-time practitioners. They would be thought of as in some cases good scientists in their own special areas, and in other cases as useful popularizers of evolution, but not as making any original contribution to understanding how evolution works.
You've moved the goalposts, from following and understanding evolution, to making an original contribution to its understanding. I'm not sure being a competent evolutionary biologist is the same as being a competent researcher in evolutionary biology.Heinrich
July 11, 2011
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As for polygeneic traits: Actually, interestingly this is one of the aspects of phenotypic traits that confers robustness on a population. Most traits are polygeneic. So, because selection operates at the level of the whole organism, what is "selected" are good cocktails of alleles not (usually) single alleles. This is one mechanism by which alleles that are potentially useful, but possibly slightly deleterious in the current environment are retained in the population. Populations in whom beneficial traits depend on a single allele are very fragile in the face of environmental change. You may have meant: 600 genes are necessary for mitosis. I don't know if this is the case: it may be, now. That would not mean it had always been that way, nor does it mean that there is no allelic variation in those genes.Elizabeth Liddle
July 11, 2011
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Mung:
I try more and more to ignore any aspect of evolutionary theory which is above the level of the cell, what takes place in the cell and during the cell cycle. Cellular structures and processes.
In that case you cannot hope to understand evolutionary theory because natural selection operates at the level of the organism not at the level of the cell. And natural selection is fairly fundamental to evolutionary theory!
And something Ms. Liddle and all the other followers of Darwin here have yet to answer is, what is the probability that a new beneficial mutation will be lost due to ‘chance’ alone?
I have already answered this. The answer is "high". The riskiest stage for a beneficial mutation is when it only exists in one organism. If that organism doesn't reproduce for some reason, then it is lost (and we'll never know whether it would have been beneficial or not, but let's assume that LaPlace's demon does). If the organism does reproduce, and that allele is passed on, then the risk of being lost drops very slightly, and with every generation, the risk drops still more. But hazard being what it is, a new allele that would, potentially, hugely increase an organism's life chances can still become extinct within a few generations or less simply because the hazards those individuals happened to encounter were not the ones to which the new allele offered any special advantage, or not sufficient advantage.Elizabeth Liddle
July 11, 2011
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Mung: 600 ‘genes’ involved in mitosis alone!? Are you kidding me? You are totally right! And there is much more. What about half of the existing protein superfamilies already present in LUCA (whatever it is)? When Gil recently gave his intriguing metaphor about what neo darwinist thought really is (for the distracted, I refer to the "Himalayan dung heap" concept), he was not exaggerating!gpuccio
July 11, 2011
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Thomas: If I am right, we would expect to find few or no scientific conference papers or refereed secular journal articles on evolutionary biology written by any of these people in the past ten years. Unfortunately, that is not the case. The point is, biologists are certainly competent, but they are biased. They find true facts and they interpret them wrongly, to remain in the context of the existing paradigm. Sometimes, they even, more ore less consciously, force the research context to be able to support conclusions that cannot be supported. I have discussed here in detail, in the past, the case of the famous Szostak paper about functional information in random protein repertoires, which is a good example of that kind of biased research. While the author is certainly very competent, his methodology and his conclusions are wrong, because ideologically biased.gpuccio
July 11, 2011
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Graham: And Im not sure I would be positing Behe as the gold standard … isnt he the guy that was disowned in a signed statement from the rest of his faculty ? Well, personally I would not posit anyone as the gold standard. But the "statement" you refer to is certainly one of the most shameful things I have ever seen in my life: a simple act of intolerance, ignorance and, probably, cowardice. Any sincere scientist, even the most die hard neo darwinist, should feel compelled to disavow such a behaviour, in order to keep a minimum of moral integrity.gpuccio
July 11, 2011
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Gil: There is a technical competence, which has its value: understanding empirical data, knowing in detail how experiments are done and how things work in the lab. But evolutionary theory is a philosophical dogma, a cognitive bias which has obscure biological (and, more generally, scientific) thought for decades. So, being "competent" does not in any way mean that one is more easily free from that bias. Indeed, the opposite is true: as competence must be obtained usually in the context of Academy, and as Academy has been for long time the e3xtreme defender of that bias, a "competent" person (ID, a good biologist) is much more likely to wholly accept and share that bias. And even if he does not, he will usually keep quiet for obvious reasons. Evolutionary biologists are good scientists as long as they find new data. They are often very biased scientists when they interpret them. The war between neo-darwinism and ID is more a philosophical and cultural war than a scientific one. At the scientific level, ID is already winning, by far :)gpuccio
July 11, 2011
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I will take silence as confirmation of my hypothesis. NOISE!Mung
July 11, 2011
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Gil, I hear and I sympathize. By "competent" I meant competent as understood by current practitioners, i.e., by scientists whose full-time job is evolutionary biology. I'm not implying that evolutionary biology has got very far in explaining anything. I'm implying only that some people are far more versed in the evolutionary biology literature than others, i.e., keep up with the latest theoretical models and the latest data, while others "keep up" only by reading Scientific American. It's my working hypothesis that Miller, Falk, Venema, Moran, Myers, Pennock, Scott, etc., would not be considered competent *in current evolutionary theory* by the vast majority of full-time practitioners. They would be thought of as in some cases good scientists in their own special areas, and in other cases as useful popularizers of evolution, but not as making any original contribution to understanding how evolution works. If I am right, we would expect to find few or no scientific conference papers or refereed secular journal articles on evolutionary biology written by any of these people in the past ten years. So I'm giving these people the chance to disprove my hypothesis by writing in and telling us what they have published, and what conferences they have read papers at. I will take silence as confirmation of my hypothesis.Thomas Cudworth
July 10, 2011
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Graham,
And Im not sure I would be positing Behe as the gold standard … isnt he the guy that was disowned in a signed statement from the rest of his faculty ?
Correction, his Darwinian ideological faculty.Clive Hayden
July 10, 2011
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An electrician can be competent, yet know nothing about deeper electronic theory. And Im not sure I would be positing Behe as the gold standard ... isnt he the guy that was disowned in a signed statement from the rest of his faculty ?Graham
July 10, 2011
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I try more and more to ignore any aspect of evolutionary theory which is above the level of the cell, what takes place in the cell and during the cell cycle. Cellular structures and processes. 600 'genes' involved in mitosis alone!? Are you kidding me? All coming into being by chance mutations and then retained for the increased rate of reproduction they provided? That's what evolutionary theory states, right? Those who reproduce the most win? Those who reproduce fastest will of course reproduce the most. And each 'gene' a 'descendant' of a prior 'gene.' Where's the nested hierarchy? And the best model to date to demonstrate "the power of cumulative selection" is the Dawkins WEASEL program? DaWeasel? Evolution is at it's core stochastic, right? How does selection change that basic foundational fact of evolutionary theory? And each new random change to the genome is independent of any prior change to the genome, isn't it? And something Ms. Liddle and all the other followers of Darwin here have yet to answer is, what is the probability that a new beneficial mutation will be lost due to 'chance' alone? How many beneficial mutations are required just to get beyond that barrier? To make it even 50/50 that the mutation will inevitably become fixed? Wash, rinse, repeat. I have yet to see a realistic model of evolution. But it's SCIENCE I tell you.Mung
July 10, 2011
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