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“Unpredictable” Does Not Equal “Contingent”

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In a previous post JT believes he has crushed the entire ID project by pointing out that: “A process determined entire[ly] by law can have EXTREMELY complex behavior and extremely difficult to predict behavior.”

 

No one disputes JT’s point, but it is beside the point as far as ID is concerned.  JT is making a common error – he is confusing “unpredictable” with “contingent.”  They are very different things.

 

When a bomb explodes the pieces of the bombshell are scattered willy nilly, and it is impossible to predict where any piece will land.  Nevertheless, where each and every piece lands is utterly determined by law.  In other words, where each piece lands is a function of nothing but the various physical forces acting upon it, which could, in principle, be modeled by a mathematical formula.  This is an example of the complex unpredictable behavior resulting from law to which JT alludes.

 

Contrast the complex unpredictable – but nevertheless determined – behavior of the bombshell with the contingent behavior of an intelligent agent.  This sentence that I am writing is an example of contingent behavior.  My choice of typing out a certain combination of letters and spaces and not another cannot be accounted for on the basis of any known law.  The only way to account for the sentence is as the contingent act of an intelligent agent.  I had a choice, and I wrote that sentence instead of another.

 

Now JT might counter that I only believe I had a choice in writing that sentence, that my consciousness is an illusion, and that my actions were governed by law as surely as the flight of the pieces of bombshell.  Well that’s the question isn’t it.  JT – and other materialists – do not know that my consciousness (and theirs) is an illusion.  They merely assert it, and until they can provide evidence (and by “evidence” I do not mean the recitation of their metaphysical tropes), that the seemingly self evident fact that I am conscious is not after all a fact, I will go on believing it.  What is more (and this is very amusing) so will they.  In other words, materialists struggle to prove that which they do not really believe.  Every one of them knows he is a conscious agent, and why they attempt to prove that which they know for a certain fact not to be the case is a mystery. 

 

Later JT wrote:  “And for the record, I generally put ‘mind’ in quotes when referring to the ID concept of it and don’t use the term much at all, because of the potential for confusion.”

 

One wonders what JT meant by “I,” in that sentence, because if, as he says, the mind does not exist, the concept of “I” has no meaning, so it seems to me that it would make more sense for him to put irony quotes around “I” and not “mind.”  This, of course, is just another example of how the materialist is forced to affirm the non-materialist case in the very act of attempting to refute it. 

Comments
RoyK is no longer with us.Barry Arrington
December 15, 2008
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smordecai, What insight do you think Quantum physics can offer with regard to this?MikeKratch
December 15, 2008
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I am surprised to not see The Mind and the Brain by Jeffery M. Swartz cited in this debate. He makes a very strong argument for the reality of human "volition" as William James called "free will". He also indicates that materialists are still thinking in terms of Newtonian physics rather than Quantum physics. Some brains can't seem to get their minds around that most difficult reality.smordecai
December 15, 2008
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I see you are trying to drag us into another semantics squabble. I am gaveling it right now. Consciousness is by definition a subject-object proposition. In other words, to accept consciousness, one must accept that there is a subject (i.e, a mind) that has a particular relation to an object (i.e., is conscious of it). Thus, consciousness is inherently dualistic, and therefore “consciousness-affirming materialist” is an oxymoron. Or maybe the people you cite (if they, in fact, say the things you say they do) are simply run of the mill morons who deny the conclusions that are inexorably compelled by their own premises. Either way, they do not interest me.Barry Arrington
December 15, 2008
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-----"I’m curious: which materialists say that consciousness is an illusion? Can you provide citations to that claim? Is is really the case that all materialists think this? ------"There is a distinct odor of straw about this post." There are two ways to deny the mind or consciousness. One way is to simply deny them outright. The other way is to use the language and rhetoric of non-material consciousness while defining and describing it solely in materialistic terms. The second strategy is calculated to argue for "brains only" while maintaining plausible deniability. It's called "epiphenominalism."StephenB
December 15, 2008
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This topic was discussed at length in an earlier thread. If you're interested in the subject, take a look. In that thread, DaveScot brought up the radio metaphor, and I pointed out its flaws:
DaveScot wrote: Think of a brain like a radio with tuner fixed at one frequency so that it can only receive one radio station. Turn off the radio (death or near death) and, although the broadcast station is still “on the air” it can no longer be heard but otherwise remains the same. Turn the radio back on and it’s back the same as always. Dave, There are some serious problems with that metaphor. The most obvious is that in reality, information flows both ways between body and mind. The broadcast station/radio receiver metaphor represents the information as flowing only one way. We can correct the flaw in the metaphor by stipulating that the receiver is really a two-way radio that can transmit as well as receive, and that the broadcast station is really a base station with two-way capability. If we adopt the modified metaphor, another question arises: which functions are performed by the base station (soul), and which by the radio (brain and body)? The naive view (held by a surprising number of people who are unfamiliar with the findings of modern neuroscience) is that all of the “interesting” stuff — thinking, feeling, remembering, deciding — is carried out by the soul, and that the body (including the brain) has only two main functions: passing information to the soul, and carrying out the commands issued by the soul. Naive though it is, many people cling to this idea because it allows them to believe in a soul that survives death while retaining all of a person’s essential characteristics: memories, temperament, cognitive abilities, etc. In reality, of course, the brain isn’t nearly as passive as the radio metaphor would suggest. Evidence shows that the brain is intimately involved with (and possibly fully responsible for) all of the characteristics mentioned above. For example, the temperament, personality, cognitive abilities and memories of an Alzheimer’s patient may be damaged to the point that the person bears no resemblance to his former self. To a materialist, this makes sense. Alzheimer’s damages the brain, and when the brain is damaged, the person is damaged. The naive dualist has a much harder time explaining how these faculties can be so seriously damaged if they are wholly (or even primarily) carried out by the soul and not the brain.
ribczynski
December 15, 2008
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mynm [14], you quote Dennett. But let me quote you from Searle's "The Mystery of Consciousness," a review of a number of books in the field including Dennett's "Consciousness Explained":
The most important problem in the biological sciences is one that until quite recently many scientists did not regard as a suitable subject for scientific investigation at all. It is this: How exactly do neurobiological processes in the brain cause consciousness? The enormous variety of stimuli that affect us—for example, when we taste wine, look at the sky, smell a rose, listen to a concert—trigger sequences of neuro-biological processes that eventually cause unified, well-ordered, coherent, inner, subjective states of awareness or sentience. Now what exactly happens between the assault of the stimuli on our receptors and the experience of consciousness, and how exactly do the intermediate processes cause the conscious states?
Now Barry may say this is a denial of consciousness, but I take Searle at his word: to explain something is not to deny it. (Not that we have an adequate explanation; but Searle's point is that a biological explanation would have to be, um, biological.)RoyK
December 15, 2008
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Barry
all other explanations of the mind are non-materialist in nature.
Do you have a resource/link, I'd be very very interested to read more about the non-materialist explanations of the mind you allude to here. Are you including Buddhism etc in this list of explanations or have I missed your point completly?MikeKratch
December 15, 2008
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Barry, it's a serious question, but "all of them" is not a serious answer. Among prominent contemporary people in the cognitive sciences, I can think of several off the top of my head who are materialists but accept that consciousness exists: John Searle, Gerald Edelman, Owen Flanagan, even Colin McGinn (in some versions of his work he's a materialist). To say that consciousness derives from the brain is different than saying it's an illusion. Is this what it takes to be on probation? Asking for examples?RoyK
December 15, 2008
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RoyK says: “I’m curious: which materialists say that consciousness is an illusion? How about “all of them.” If the mind is an epiphenomenon of the brain, then it necessarily follows that consciousness is an illusion. All materialists say that the mind is an epiphenomenon of the brain, because all other explanations of the mind are non-materialist in nature. RoyK, your question suggests one of two things: (1) you are deeply ignorant; or (2) you are just throwing rocks into the gears to see what happens. Either way, you are on probationBarry Arrington
December 15, 2008
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-----JT: "It wouldn’t be a single law determining this. But a whole constellation of factors that resulted in the action you took." Your argument seems to be that since we cannot determine the cards that we are dealt, we cannot in any way decide how we will play them. That point refutes itself. Every person that visits this site, materialists included, hope to persuade onlookers. In other words, they believe that they can influence public perception of these matters and make a difference in the way others use their free will. Everyone who cares knows that "free will" is understood to be both real and contextual. That means that our choices must be made within the context of pre-established constraints. To say that free will is not absolute, or even that it exists in very small proportions, does not, in any way, change the fact that it exists. Clearly, Barry A cannot write a written paragraph unless a whole series of preliminary conditions are met, but that does not eliminate contingency, it merely puts it in context and dramatizes its limits. In other words, both the concepts of absolute free will and no free will are illusions. Contingency and free will are two sides of the same coin, which is the capacity to do something in more than one way or even in an almost infinite number of ways. Any artist knows that. Put another way, materialists don’t believe their own argument, at least not in a consistent way. As Chesterton wrote, the materialist cannot even say “thank you” for passing the mustard without violating his own logic. He was right, of course. While our human nature, our parents, and our place of birth determine the major problems (and opportunities) in our lives, none of these things can fully dictate exactly how we will respond to them. To say that pre-established constraints prevent us from choosing is like saying the laws of music stop Mozart from composing. -----"Furthermore, my project is not to “crush” anybody, nor is it necessarily to convert everyone here to my point of view - that is certainly a hopeless endeavor." Yes, but you hope to persuade onlookers, which, again, refutes your own position. If they have no free will, they cannot persuaded any more than we ID proponents can be persuaded. Frankly, it is humorous to watch people attempt to influence others and change minds even though they don't believe that influence is possible or that there is any such thing as a mind to change.StephenB
December 15, 2008
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Here's the link that did not show up in my lat post: http://www.firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=152Barry Arrington
December 15, 2008
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Norman Doering next asserts that studies of brain injured persons refute the existence of the mind as something that transcends brain function. As Patrick Lee & Robert P. George point out here, Doering’s assertion “rests on what is manifestly a non sequitur. Shutting off action X prevents action Y: this shows either that X is identical with Y, or that, though X and Y are distinct, Y depends on X to occur.” Think of it in terms of a radio. If the radio is damaged the sounds it produces are impaired or cease altogether. Does this mean that the radio is the source of the sounds? Under Doering’s reasoning it must be. The radio is damaged; the sounds cease; therefore the radio is the source of the sounds. Well, maybe, but not necessarily. There is an alternative explanation. The radio transmits sounds that it receives from another source; the radio is damaged; therefore it is unable to transmit the sounds it receives from an independent source. Nevertheless, the independence source does not depend on the function of the radio for its function, much less its independent existence. Materialists are so blinded by their prejudices that they have convinced themselves the “brain damage” argument is a knock down show stopper, when in fact it is refuted easily. Perhaps Doering believes the transmission source for the radio program is “magic” too. One almost hates to tell him there is no little man inside “music box” who begins to sing every time he turns the “on” knob.Barry Arrington
December 15, 2008
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I’m curious: which materialists say that consciousness is an illusion? Can you provide citations to that claim? E.g.
Consider this account of an RNA phage, a replicating virus: [...] Love it or hate it, phenomena like this exhibit the heart and power of the Darwinian idea. An impersonal, unreflective, robotic, mindless little scrap of molecular machinery is the ultimate basis of all the agency, and hence meaning, and hence consciousness, in the universe. (Darwin's Dangerous Idea by Daniel Dennett :203)
Consequently:
...somehow we have to get personalities-consciousness, intelligence, agency-back in the driver's seat. If we can just have contigency-radical contingency-this will give the mind some elbow room, so it can act, and be responsible for its own destiny, instead of being the mere effect of a mindless cascade of mechanical processes! (Ib. :300)
Is is really the case that all materialists think this? Feel free to cite one that does not think that mind is an effect or illusion of mindless processes.mynym
December 15, 2008
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I think that Barry is wrong to link intelligence detection and mind. I think that design detection can be used to see if a robot committed a crime or the crime was an accident. Regardless of where you fall on the free will/determinism debate, you can always acknowledge that the traffic lights were design (albeit poorly perhaps) in your city. Was it designed by a computer? A mindless person? A god? Doesn't matter, it was designed and that is detectable. Although the traffic lights system evolved, it did so via beings that could take in data, evaluate and make purposeful modifications to improve it.Collin
December 15, 2008
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Norman, I just finished "The Spiritual Brain" by Mario Beauregard and our very own Denyse O'Leary. I think you should read it. Of course it supports the idea of "magic" (to use your terminology) that you are opposed to. It (more than once) points out that "science" has no obligation to materialism.Jack Golightly
December 15, 2008
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Norman Doering asks: “Are there limits to science forever, or just to the science we have today?” Of course, the answer is there will forever be limits to what science can tell us, because, by its very nature, the scientific method never makes any absolute assertion. Popper put the same proposition this way: “The empirical basis of objective science has thus nothing ‘absolute’ about it. Science does not rest on solid bedrock. The bold structure of its theories rises, as it were, above a swamp. It is like a building erected on piles. The piles are driven down from above into the swamp, but not down to any natural or ‘given’ base; and if we stop driving the piles deeper, it is not because we have reached firm ground. We simply stop when we are satisfied that the piles are firm enough to carry the structure, at least for the time being.” Karl Popper, The Logic of Scientific Discovery, (New York, Routledge Classics, 1959, reprint of first English edition, 2002), 94 Surely you do not disagree with Popper, which prompts me to ask why you posed the question.Barry Arrington
December 15, 2008
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I'm curious: which materialists say that consciousness is an illusion? Can you provide citations to that claim? Is is really the case that all materialists think this? There is a distinct odor of straw about this post.RoyK
December 15, 2008
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Hello again JT, you state: "And a chess program’s behavior is determined strictly by laws - very complex laws, but laws nonetheless." Again you are forgetting something here. A chess program is not "strictly" law, but a highly improbable and contingent set of laws, not defined by mere regularity or by any laws as emergent physical properties of the materials/units/bits used. So, it is absolutely incorrect to imply that a chess program is "nothing but laws." Again, you are forgetting that a type of information (or a specific type of organization) of those laws is also involved. Moreover, as I have already explained in another thread to you, and have briefly repeated here, the organization which results in that very specific set of laws which result in a highly improbable function is not defined or caused by any laws of the units utilized. Again, the material used is not as important as how they are organized. Logic gates can in theory be created from any material. I have seen and designed my own mechanical logic gates, and I have seen examples of "water flow" logic gates. These logic gates, as well as those employed in electronic circuits are not a result of any laws or emergent properties of the physical or material properties of any of the material used. This has nothing to do with magical minds floating around. This has to do with intelligence (as the ability to model the future and then organize law and chance to arrive at a future specified goal at better than chance, which does exist as per our experience) being fundamentally either alongside matter and law or preceding matter and law as we presently understand it. The "material" properties of this intelligence is inconsequential for the purposes of this debate, however that would be an interesting subject to explore. I personally have no problem with conscious intelligence being the result of processes in the brain, however, this does in no way mean that it is the result of "just law." Information and ultimately previous intelligence is needed. Intelligence is the result of previous intelligence somewhere down the causal chain. Intelligence unfolding within our universe only points to intelligence preceding our universe. Intelligence causes intelligence. Furthermore, this has nothing to do with free will, IMO. Foresight (conscious modelling of future goals which do not yet exist) does exist as per our experience of envisioning an end goal and then manipulating law and chance to produce that end product. We can do this whether we are "free" to do it or not. IMO, this issue of foresight is one of the fundamentals of this debate.CJYman
December 15, 2008
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Peter wrote:
There are limits to what science can tell us.
Are there limits to science forever, or just to the science we have today?
... it is also important to know the limitations of science.
What do you think those limits are?
Just because we have the technology to observe sub-atomic particles does not mean that we have the understanding to create even the simplest of life.
Researchers creating life from scratch: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9005023/ http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1340438/posts http://www.fastol.com/~renkwitz/going_places.htm#Venter%20Life http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6251910.stm http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/19/AR2007081901408.html?referrer=yahooNorman Doering
December 15, 2008
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JT says:
What about a chess program? Can you predict what a chess program will do next? Not generally...
In fact you can quite easily. If you are the programmer who wrote the code you can use a debugger to step through the code and observe the value of the variables. At any particular place in the program you can calculate exactly what the program will do. To my knowledge no one has claimed that they have reduced the human brain to a set of equations and code. There is a vaste difference between a computer program and a mind. There are examples of people with severe brain damage that function surprisingly well. I am thinking of a case involving a French civil servant that was in the news a while back. There are limits to what science can tell us. We are taught the many benefits of science. They are all around us. However, it is also important to know the limitations of science. Just because we have the technology to observe sub-atomic particles does not mean that we have the understanding to create even the simplest of life.Peter
December 15, 2008
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Barry Arrington wrote:
Norman, re [2], I take it you are asserting, as does JT, that all human behavior can be reduced to physical law.
Yea, sort of, I think that's where the evidence points. Nothing magical needs to be asserted to explain human behavior. And it's not scientific to propose magic and the supernatural. As David Brooks once said: "To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy." A lot of evidence for the theory that the mind is what the brain does comes from what happens to brain damaged people. If the mind is some supernatural stuff floating in the aether then how is it damaged when the brain is damaged? How is it changed when drugs are ingested? For example, consider Capgras delusion. It's a rare disorder in which someone believes that a loved one, or close family member, has been replaced by an identical-looking impostor. They think this because they just don't feel the same feelings for that person any more and can't explain why. Related to that is "prosopagnosia," where brain-injury removes only the ability to recognize faces, but nothing else. All these damages to the brain, thousands of different syndromes, that result in weird cognitive deficits certainly point to the fact that the brain is the mechanism that produce the cognitive abilities in the first place.Norman Doering
December 15, 2008
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This sentence that I am writing is an example of contingent behavior. My choice of typing out a certain combination of letters and spaces and not another cannot be accounted for on the basis of any known law. The only way to account for the sentence is as the contingent act of an intelligent agent It wouldn't be a single law determining this. But a whole constellation of factors that resulted in the action you took. First of all, you were obliged to write in English because this is not a foreign language forum. Even if you knew another language, you were obliged to write English here. Also you were obliged to follow the rules of English grammar which you did not invent. You did not invent english vocabulary either, not to mention the terminology unique to Intelligent Design. If one day you were to start righting meaningless jibberish in this forum because you had "free will" you would soon be gone. The other moderators would get together and enquire of you regarding this unaccepted behavior and if it continued you would be gone. You couldn't post an article that was merely a question about photography either. There is an acceptable range of subject matter. To go back much further - You didn't decide to be born, you didn't decide where you were born. Your vocabulary, world view, interests and so on are ultimately tied to factors which you do not control. You mention a bomb blowing up as an example of determinstic behavior, but that's not what I had in mind. What about a chess program? Can you predict what a chess program will do next? Not generally - if you could you could beat it and it is very hard to beat a chess program. And a chess program's behavior is determined strictly by laws - very complex laws, but laws nonetheless. A bomb blowing is random and chaotic - I would say a chess playing program falls under the category of what I.D terms "directed contigency". You can reply, "Ahh, but a human being wrote the chess program and we KNOW a human is not merely machine but has FREE WILL." The elementary logic errors would be blatant in such a statement and I suppose I can elaborate further if needed. Furthermore, my project is not to "crush" anybody, nor is it necessarily to convert everyone here to my point of view - that is certainly a hopeless endeavor. I would say I got dragged into an extended exchange with kairosfocus (which isn't that difficult) But generally, my tendency isn't too browbeat people to accepting my point of view. Incidentally, my point of view is greatly influenced by my interpretation of the Bible, which may not be hugely relevant to everyone in this forum. But I am definitely not a secular humanist or darwinist seeking to corrupt impressionable minds here. Thanks for your patience.JT
December 15, 2008
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Norman, re [2], I take it you are asserting, as does JT, that all human behavior can be reduced to physical law. As I challenged in my post, do you care to actually produce evidence for your assertion? Or are you content merely to recite more slogans like the ones in your comment. If the latter, please move along to another site. Slogans are so boring.Barry Arrington
December 15, 2008
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What do think “minds” are? Magical supernatural souls that float about in the aether without any material substrate? Of course not, they're obviously bits of matter that have causal links to another universe in the multiverse, naturally! It would almost be magical if it wasn't so natural. By the way, is it okay with naturalists if people call one of the universes in the multiverse hell and another heaven or is that too supernatural? What does "natural" mean to you as opposed to magical and supernatural, anyway?mynym
December 15, 2008
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Barry Arrington wrote:
One wonders what JT meant by “I,” in that sentence, because if, as he says, the mind does not exist, the concept of “I” has no meaning, so it seems to me that it would make more sense for him to put irony quotes around “I” and not “mind.” This, of course, is just another example of how the materialist is forced to affirm the non-materialist case in the very act of attempting to refute it.
JT obviously doesn't mean there is no such thing as a "mind" but rather that what we call minds are not what you think they are. What do think "minds" are? Magical supernatural souls that float about in the aether without any material substrate? JT, I suspect, would consider himself to have a "brain" rather than a "mind." And where is JT's post? Why did you not link to that thread so people could better judge your interpretation of his comments?Norman Doering
December 15, 2008
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Barry, I wholeheartedly agree with you. That said, I consider "by law" to be a perfectly valid ID position. If God created a set of laws which, by their design, obligates nature to produce humanity (or something seriously like it) then we are still the product of design -- the design of the law-maker. This, of course, is the natural extension of the strong anthropic principle. I personally believe that designed "laws" are a fundimental, and major, tool in the designer's toolbox. I, however, don't believe that law explains it all. I would extend that if law does explain it all, we have not yet discovered some very important laws. I would venture to explain the issue to JT with a term I learned here on ID -- FSCI, function specifying complex information, or functionality specifying complex information. I like this term better than Dembski's CSI because it is more narrow, it is a subset of CSI. The number pi seems to me to meet the definition of CSI, but it does not specify something that functions, so it is not FSCI. Within biology are all manner of functional things. These functional things are the product of a specification in DNA. This is a vastly different thing than the mathematical description that explains the pattern of a bomb blast. It is a vastly different thing than the "by law" coelescing of planets from stardust. Even the formulae that describe the flow of planets, while describing something that functions, do not provide the specification that the function used to do its functioning. Just my way of sayin' what you have said.bFast
December 15, 2008
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