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Contemplating the Undead

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Origin of Life theories attempt to account for the transition from prebiotic matter to biotic matter.  Beginning with Darwin’s warm little pond and continuing through the present day, scientists have tried to explain how this intuitively unlikely jump could have been made.  In his wonderful article On the Origins of Life (here), David Berlinski summarizes some of the more important assumptions scientists must make in trying to resolve this weighty question:

“First, that the pre-biotic atmosphere was chemically reductive; second, that nature found a way to synthesize cytosine; third, that nature also found a way to synthesize ribose; fourth, that nature found the means to assemble nucleotides into polynucleotides; fifth, that nature discovered a self-replicating molecule; and sixth, that having done all that, nature promoted a self-replicating molecule into a full system of coded chemistry.”

As I was contemplating this issue, something occurred to me.  Why are scientists taking on such a hard job up front?  Why not start with an easier problem and gradually increase complexity.  Instead of starting from nothing and trying to work forward to a full-blown living being, why don’t they start with “almost everything” and work their way backwards?

This is what I mean.  Some enterprising researcher eager for a trip to Oslo should take the very simplest single-celled critter he can find and bump it off.  Then he can take the recently bumped off critter and zap it with electricity or something and make it come back to life.  The critter was, by definition, not alive, so in a sense we can call it prebiotic matter.  But after the zapping stage of the experiment, the critter will be alive (or at least undead).  This will prove that living things can come from non-living matter.

This experiment should be easy.  There are gazillions of very simple single-celled critters running around who, I am certain, would be honored to help advance our understanding of science.  Some of them may even be publicity hounds and therefore eager to be the subject of a Nobel prize winning experiment.  Not even PETA would object to bumping off a couple of these wee beasties in the interest of earth-shattering scientific progress.

On the other hand, it seems like this experiment would involve a huge risk for metaphysical materialists.  In my experiment the non-living matter has every single building block of life readily to hand.  Unlike present origin of life research, no one has to conjure up any critical ingredients through convenient assumptions.  The only thing that is missing is the mysterious “anima” of living things.  But if the researcher can’t make this stuff come alive (or undead) under such ideal conditions, isn’t the attempt to come up with a plausible origin of life scenario under far less propitious circumstances utterly doomed to failure?

I’m sure I’m not the first person who has thought of this.  What say our intrepid readers?

Comments
No scientist has inferred anything about the origin of life on earth. National Academy of Sciences ( Science and Creationism, 1999 )
For those who are studying the origin of life, the question is no longer whether life could have originated by chemical processes involving nonbiological components.  The question instead has become which of many pathways might have been followed to produce the first cells.
Charlie
September 14, 2006
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"Even if we could get all of the correct chemicals and other necessary stuff (I’m obviously a scientist, pardon the lofty jargon) into a tube and watch it start generating self-replicating molecules, this still would not in any way show that the process was unguided by intelligence. It would seeminly demonstrate that IF intelligence is at play, that intelligence is not directly materially visible, which might be sufficient to jettison IDists who are still basically materialits, but thats about all. Help me see where I am wrong on this." SRMs are not evidence of intelligence unless the intelligence is the guiding hand of a scientist involved in the replication process. The end result of replication specifically, replication of nucleic acids, is evidence for intelligence when sequence specificity is generated and the storage of non-material information thereby enabled. Sequence specificity according to an encoded convention would be data favoring ID.pk4_paul
September 14, 2006
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"You’ve still not addressed the fallacy of attempting to draw a design inference from non-existent data." The inference is based on existing data.pk4_paul
September 14, 2006
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http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/0604122103v1
Biological molecular motors have a number of unique advantages over artificial motors, including efficient conversion of chemical energy into mechanical work and the potential for self-assembly into larger structures, as is seen in muscle sarcomeres and bacterial and eukaryotic flagella. The development of an appropriate interface between such biological materials and synthetic devices should enable us to realize useful hybrid micromachines. Here we describe a microrotary motor composed of a 20-µm-diameter silicon dioxide rotor driven on a silicon track by the gliding bacterium Mycoplasma mobile. This motor is fueled by glucose and inherits some of the properties normally attributed to living systems. ....... Mycoplasma mobile, a species of gliding bacteria, is another example of a higher-order unit (cells in this case) with superb motility. M. mobile has a pear-shaped cell body ~ 1 micrometer in length and moves continuously over solid surfaces at speeds up to 2-5 micrometers per second.
The statement relevant to this thread:
it is currently impractical, if not impossible, to reconstitute[Bring back from the dead? -P] fully functional motile units from the isolated proteins of M. mobile in vitro. For that reason, we have been attempting to construct micromechanical devices using intact M. mobile cells instead of the isolated proteins. A key benefit of this approach is that hybrid devices into which living cells are integrated enable us to take advantage of preassembled excellent motor units that have the potential for self-repair or self-reproduction when damaged.
I'm assuming they actually attempted to break down--kill--M. mobile into its functional parts and then "reanimate" them (It's alive!). Not exactly the same as "zap[ping] it with electricity" but it does qualify as "or something" to "make it come back to life." As for the debate over an argument from ignorance, I imagine that ID can only look at known configurations (artificial model or otherwise) and calculate whether CSI is involved. If people want to posit the belief that there's an unknown configuration out there that life did indeed first come from then I suppose ID itself cannot go there...but I suppose it can be argued whether such a belief is warranted considering known biochemistry.Patrick
September 14, 2006
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BarryA, You've still not addressed the fallacy of attempting to draw a design inference from non-existent data. I made it very clear above that no scientist was inferring anything from non-existent results on origins.Tom English
September 14, 2006
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Here's a thought from a real non-materialist perspective: Even if we could get all of the correct chemicals and other necessary stuff (I'm obviously a scientist, pardon the lofty jargon) into a tube and watch it start generating self-replicating molecules, this still would not in any way show that the process was unguided by intelligence. It would seeminly demonstrate that IF intelligence is at play, that intelligence is not directly materially visible, which might be sufficient to jettison IDists who are still basically materialits, but thats about all. Help me see where I am wrong on this.tinabrewer
September 14, 2006
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"First, you have much higher temperatures and pressures than on the surface, both of which speed up chemical reactions considerably. In fact, a lot of enzymes that “room temperature” life needs to speed up reactions are unnecessary under hot high pressure. (This makes Berlinski look a little pathetic when he says, “But in the grim inhospitable pre-biotic, no enzymes were available. And so chemists have assigned their task to various inorganic catalysts.”)" What unique property of these putative chemical reactions leads to their selection in the direction of a replicating cell?pk4_paul
September 14, 2006
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Paul Nelson. Wonderful! Thanks for the citation.BarryA
September 14, 2006
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Tom English, call it “tu quoque” if you like. I call it “sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.”BarryA
September 14, 2006
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When people use the term “unthinkable” they don’t really mean literally “that which cannot be thought of.” They mean “that which SHOULD not be thought of,” as in “Another holocaust is unthinkable.” After seeing some of the comments on this thread, I wonder if the literal meaning might not apply sometimes. Here is an example, “I am a metaphysical naturalist, and it is unthinkable that life originated any way other than spontaneously from the prebiotic soup.” Or, if you prefer Houdin’s theory that the first living organism was a spelunker, “It is unthinkable that life did not spontaneously generate in some warm underground environment.” It seems that some materialists’ religious faith is so deeply ingrained that anything that is inconsistent with their faith commitment is, for them, quite literally unthinkable.BarryA
September 14, 2006
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DaveScot: "Here’s a tip for you. Just because an argument is made from incredulity it doesn’t follow that the argument is wrong." Are we talking science here? Bill Dembski has fought the notion that the design inference is argumentum ad ignorantium, and I actually agree with him that it is not. But what keeps the design inference from being an argument from ignorance is the detection of a pattern in the object or data under consideration. When you simply have a gap in scientific knowledge, and you try to fill it with intelligent design because you believe in intelligent design, you have slipped into the kind of argument I believe Bill meant to avoid. See his opening remarks on "warrant" in his "Specification" paper at designinference.com.Tom English
September 14, 2006
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Interesting thread. In a major review paper a few years ago, UC-Santa Cruz abiogenesis researcher David Deamer proposed just the experiment described by Barry above. Deamer wrote: "Imagine that on the early Earth, a complete system of catalytic and information-bearing molecules happened by chance to come together in a tide pool that was sufficiently concentrated to produce the equivalent of the contents of our flask [with the necessary ingredients for life]. We could model this event in the laboratory by gently disrupting a live bacterial culture, subjecting it to a sterilizing filtration step, and adding the mixture to the flask of nutrient broth. No living cells are present, but entire bacterial genomes are available, together with ribosomes, membranous vesicles, ATP and other energy-containing substrates, and thousands of functional enzymes. Once again, would a living system arise under these conditions? Although [Stuart] Kauffman might be optimistic about the possibilities, most experimentalists would guess that little would happen other than slow, degradative reactions of hydrolysis, even though virtually the entire complement of molecules associated with the living state is present. The dispersion has lost the extreme level of order characteristic of cytoplasm in contemporary living cells. Equally important is that the ATP would be hydrolyzed in seconds, so that the system still lacks a continuous source of free energy to drive the metabolism and polymerization reactions associated with life." D. Deamer, "The First Living Things: A Bioenergetic Perspective," Microbiology and Molecular Biology Reviews 61 (1997):239-61; p. 242. Deamer argues that any abiogenesis scenarios that does not invoke the immediate encapsulation of replicating molecules will run afoul of chemical realities such as hydrolysis. His thought experiment about killing a modern cell is meant to illustrate the functional necessity of isolating membranes, but arguably it entails much more than that.Paul Nelson
September 14, 2006
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* Try removing or separating all of any "essential component" from a self reproducing cell (aka and irreducibly complex component). * e.g. ATP Syntase is posited as irreducibly complex, and is essential to self reproducing cellular function. * Mix the separated component and residue in a natural "warm pond" environment. * Test for say 1 billion years to see if the formerly self reproducing cell begins reproducing again. *References: * http://www.trueorigin.org/atp.asp * Jerry Bergman, ATP: The Perfect Energy Currency for the Cell, Creation Research Society Quarterly, Vol. 36, No. 1 (1999) * http://www.idthefuture.com/2006/09/atp_synthase_paleys_secret_spr.html * Cornelius Hunter, ATP Synthase: Paley's Secret Spring, [http://www.IDtheFuture.org IDtheFuture] Sept. 12, 2006DLH
September 14, 2006
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BarryA said: "There are lots of experiments that would falsify ID. Any experiment that demonstrated, for example, a plausible mechanism for a abiogenesis." "Any experiment that shows that information (I would be willing to settle for fairly simple information – you don’t have to demonstrate anything remotely as complex as that contained in the simplest bacterium) can be generated by blind natural forces would falsify ID." "Any experiment that shows that an irreducible complex organic system could be constructed by blind natural forces would falsify ID. None of this works. A demonstration of a plausible natural pathway for the origin of life - a demonstration that would emerge from the accumulation of experimental observations confirming predictions of a naturalistic model - would not exclude ID. It would simply establish one possible mechanism for the origins of life (a naturalistic mechanism), while leaving open the question of whether life may also have arisen by means of other pathways, including one resulting from ID. Hence such a finding fails to place ID "at risk." Nor does it grow in any substantial sense from an ID model. Similar logic applies to your second example. To show that information can be generated by blind natural forces (that happens everyday - I assume you mean something like "complex specified information") does not establish that it cannot also arise by means of ID. Hence this is also not a test of ID. To show that irreducibly complex systems can arise by means of natural processes is excluded by the definition of "irreducibly complex." In essence you are asking, "demonstrate that a system that cannot have arisen by natural selection arose by natural selection." All such demonstrations can show is that ID theorists were mistaken in characterizing a given structure as "irreducibly complex" in the first place. That process goes forward only as specific predictions of naturalistic models of the origins of particular complex structures/processes are tested and confirmed/discomfirmed, and does not require a whit of additional work by ID experimentalists working from an ID conceptual framework. What you have NOT provided is a unique positive experimental prediction that arises from ID's model of the origins of living systems, one that would place the ID hypothesis at risk. Such a prediction would arise out of the proposed processes, mechanisms, pathways, places, times, agent or agents, etc. (you get to choose) postulated by the ID model of the origins of life. Ok...GO!Reciprocating Bill
September 14, 2006
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“It’s alive! It’s alive!” Seems like someone would be eager to try. Just imagine the movie that would be made.tribune7
September 14, 2006
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"If we cannot even “repair” the very simplest dead singled celled critter, what hope do we have of ever demonstrating that one sprang up fully formed like Athena from Zeus’s head?" "And yet, evolutionists do believe that those components, after having assembled by chance, were stable enough to randomly associate and form a first living cell." Just to clarify, I don't think abiogenesis involved a whole cell randomly assembling from organic molecules. I also think there's a distict possibility we will never be able to demonstrate it. That doesn't mean it was designed however. "Why is this suspect to you. It demonstrates something important to me." Its not so much the experiments its the general interpretation I've seen of them. Firstly evolution didn't take place by incremental addition of static parts, so it's not true that it's 'reversing' evolution. And although the experiments might give the idea of what the earliest 'modern cell' might have looked like, it doesnt mean this was the earliest lifeform, or that the several hundred proteins are somehow nessecery for life.Chris Hyland
September 14, 2006
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Tribune 7, and just think of how fun it would be for our hypothetical researcher to run around the lab with a slightly mad look in his eyes and yelling "It's alive! It's alive!" Seems like someone would be eager to try.BarryA
September 14, 2006
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BarryA -- you raise a good point. If life is just a chemical reaction --as per abiogenesis advocates -- then having the DNA molecules ready-to-go would simplify their project you would think. Just heat and serve. Give the cadaver a jolt from your electrodes and he'll be doing the Monster Mash.tribune7
September 14, 2006
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Tom English Here's a tip for you. Just because an argument is made from incredulity it doesn't follow that the argument is wrong. The modern argument for spontaneous generation is incredible. It's essentially the same argument as maggots spontaneously generating from rotten meat and mice spontaneously generating in grain storage bins. The only difference is that it took billions of years to get from soup to (mouse) nuts instead of days or weeks. The amount of hard evidence in support of either the old or new versions is however about the same.DaveScot
September 14, 2006
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Tom English You’re back to mocking the work of legitimate scientists trying to gain some insight into abiogenesis. And you have yet to tell us the ID experiments. Replace "legitimate scientists" with "Keystone Cops" and "abiogenesis" with "snipe hunting" and you might be right. And you have yet to find that snipe. :razz:DaveScot
September 14, 2006
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Tom English: “There is no way to infer design from speculations.” Barry: "But its OK to infer non-design from even the rankest not-even-remotely-substantiated speculation. Is that your position Tom?" Sad tu quoque, Barry. No scientist has inferred anything about the origin of life on earth. My position is that IDists can make a design inference only when science presents them with something poorly explained. But in the case of origins, scientists are so lost that they present IDists with nothing to find design in. In other words, scientists confess their ignorance, and IDists are fools enough to try to infer design from nothing. Again, you can't infer design in something unless you have something in which to infer design. Arguments for intelligent design in the origin of life are arguments from ignorance.Tom English
September 14, 2006
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Barry If the hypothesis is that ID is strictly required then yes that would falsify it. If the hypothesis is that life came about by intelligent design then it does not falsify it but rather renders it unnecessary.DaveScot
September 14, 2006
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Chris Hyland: “It really depends what you mean by ‘bump off’. In a single cell, I suspect by most definitions the cells systems would have been damaged beyond repair.” And yet, evolutionists do believe that those components, after having assembled by chance, were stable enough to randomly associate and form a first living cell. Why shouldn't we be able, with intelligent technological tools, and preservibg as best as possible the delicate structures derived from existing cells, be able to reproduce at least the last step? Imagine it like an "organ transplantation", where you transplant the single cell parts, not in a pre-existing living cell, but all together to generate a cell. It should be possible, if it happened in nature by random means. I think we do have the biological technology to attempt that. And yet, nobody has even got near to some result of that kind. If, even trying with all the right methods, such a result can't be achieved, that would be a strong argument to reject the basic supposition, that is that life is only a complex biological machinery. “Several labs have tried to knock out as many genes as they can in simple organisms to find the ‘minimum gene number’. Which always seemed slightly suspect to me as it gives the false impression that what they came up with is some kind of minimum possibility for a living thing.” That, although interesting, is in no way the same experyment Barry proposed. And I would say that the correct impression is certainly that what they came up with is the minimun "known" possibility for a living thing. Simpler forms may have existed or exist, but they have never been observed, so they are at present only suppositions, again. Houdin (to Barry): "Your idea of taking something out of a cell and putting it back in and having the cell come back to life also suffers from the problem that other commenters have brought to your attention: you wouldn’t be proving anything at all about the start of life because the first living thing was not a modern cell. All the cells that you can find today (unless you break up rocks - more below on this) are the products of nearly four billion years of evolution." I don't agree with that. Archea, as we know them today, are probably the oldest living cells, and as far as I know they are probably, today, just the same as they were 3,5 billion years ago. They are so old that it is difficult to understand when they could have evolved, given that they were probably already there after only one billion year of earth's existence, and in that billion year earth's conditions were not probably such that they could allow evolution of life (I know, there are many "probably" here, but I think that word should be used more often in these topics). Anyway, even if you don't agree with these times and numbers, it is difficult to deny that archea have been there for a very long time, and that they have not changed, as far as we know. Again I state that any simpler kind of life is, at present, only a supposition, unsupported by any data. Moreover, it seems. from genetic studies, that archea may be more related to us than bacteria. Finally, for a discussion about Strong AI theory, and for a possible non-alghorythmic theory of consciousness, I would highly recommend reading Penrose (for instance, "Shadows of the mind")gpuccio
September 14, 2006
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DaveScot: “That, while not falsifying ID per se, makes ID an unnecessary requirement in the origin of organic life as observed on this planet.” I’m not sure I understand this statement. If the ID hypothesis is that intelligence is absolutely required to generate what you described (not merely that it is one of many possible mechanisms), then demonstrating that what you described can be produced by natural means would falsify the hypothesis per se wouldn’t it?BarryA
September 14, 2006
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Tom English: “There is no way to infer design from speculations.” But its OK to infer non-design from even the rankest not-even-remotely-substantiated speculation. Is that your position Tom?BarryA
September 14, 2006
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idnet.com.au: Great. You're back to mocking the work of legitimate scientists trying to gain some insight into abiogenesis. And you have yet to tell us the ID experiments. Hint: Try writing a sentence that supports ID but does not contain a negative like "no" or "not."Tom English
September 14, 2006
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A typical "exciting" experiment in prebiotic chemistry is Sol Spiegelman's QB virus work. He used "a test tube full of suitable chemicals". There is no known way to create and assemble these chemical collections without intelligent design. He adds "RNA's own replication enzyme" That is very convenient. First we add the ingredients, then we add the molecular machine that replicates RNA. Then he introduces the QB virus and hey presto, surprise surprise, the RNA virus "starts replicating" and even generates variation. After some time the easiest variation to copy starts to predominate and we have proven that Darwinism happens even in RNA. The results of these experiments were easily predicted without any reference to Darwin and have nothing to do with prebiosis. They simply show that a copy machine supplied with supplies will produce copies.idnet.com.au
September 14, 2006
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idnet.com.au: "We only have information on experiments that demonstrate that ID is the best theory currently available that explains the origin of specified complexity like self replicating molecules." Argumentum ad ignorantiam at its worst. Perhaps you recall that one infers design from observations. There is no way to infer design from speculations. You have no data on putative self-replicating molecules, and your claim that they exhibit specified complexity is purely an argument from ignorance.Tom English
September 14, 2006
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Comment by Houdin "Okay, tell us about those experiments. " No experiments have generated any single isomer amino acids, or collections of single isomer amino acids. Life is composed of single isomer amino acids. No experiments have produced life like polymers using isomer mixtures. Conclusion. 50 years and the promise of a nobel prize and a whole lot of intelligent biochemists can't think of any way that useful proteins could have self generated without the input of an intelligence higher than ours. Thus the standing theory is design. There is no alternative contender as I see it.idnet.com.au
September 14, 2006
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Houdin “life probably started under the surface of the earth” I am not sure why the fact that the single celled beasties might have had troglodyte tendencies makes a difference to my thought experiment.BarryA
September 14, 2006
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