Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Convergence, ID Critics, and Public Theatre

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The Map of Life is a new website, funded in part by the Templeton Organization, devoted to highlighting and discussing the role of convergence in evolution. Simon Conway Morris, whose thoughts on evolution I’m actually very interested in, has a role in the site – and it promises to be a place of interest for those people (ID proponents and TEs both) who see convergence as evidence that evolution may not be as “blind” as many people typically assume.

But I’m actually not interested in the the convergence question at the moment. Instead I’m interested in the site’s stated “aims”. The second aim is to promote discussion about convergence in evolution, and whether or not evolution may be more predictable than previously thought. The first aim is to A) promote the truth of evolution, and B) criticize ID in one of the most mangled, confused ways I’ve seen recently.

More on that below.

Here’s the relevant portion:

Of note, the science of evolutionary biology is NOT consistent with the central tenet of the “intelligent design” (ID) movement that suggests, contrary to all scientific evidence, that amongst other things organisms were supernaturally created and have remained unchanged since the time of their creation. There is also NO evidence for biological structures being supposedly “irreducibly complex”, arising by non-evolutionary “processes”. Indeed, convergence points in exactly the opposite direction because supposedly “irreducibly complex” structures, such as the bacterial flagellar motor, evolved independently at least twice. Not only that but we understand how each of the component parts became adapted make the complex structure that exists today. The existence of change over time in living things is clearly manifest in the fossil record, and is supported by information from the molecules, form and behaviour of organisms alive today.

Where to begin.

1) If it’s the central tenet of the ID movement that organisms were supernaturally created, then I missed the memo. Last I checked, the main ID proponents typically stress that ID absolutely does not claim that the designer, or designs, were “supernatural” in nature.

2) Nor have I seen this tenet that claims said organisms “have remained unchanged since the time of their creation”. I’m sure the writer of this part means a lack of change on the species level, rather than asserting that the very first penguin-like creatures are still waddling around somewhere. But again, where is it a “central tenet” of ID that populations of organisms remain the same? Mind you, I’m sure there are some ID advocates who believe that species don’t change, and so on. I’m also sure there are some evolutionary biologists who think evolutionary psychology is nonsense. It does not therefore become a central tenet of evolutionary biology that evolutionary psychology is bunk.

3) No evidence for IC biological structures arising by non-evolutionary processes? Really? First, last I checked ID proponents didn’t need to eschew evolutionary processes – though said processes would not be entirely unguided or Darwinian ones. Second, I’ve long wondered… if Craig Venter makes an IC structure in a cell, would that count as an IC structure coming about through a non-evolutionary force? Would it count as evidence of some kind, however qualified, for ID? But that’s an aside more than anything.

Now, I’m on record as being skeptical of ID as science (and I’m likewise skeptical of no-design claims being science as well.) But really, one thing I get tired of – and which I encounter quite often – is this blatant mangling of what ID proponents are saying, or what they are committed to. I suppose I should be glad the site doesn’t outright connect ID with a belief in a young earth, since that’s one of the usual talking points I bump into.

Anyway, I’m griping, but I have a suspicion of why ID is taken out and whipped in the “aims” section of the website: Because the second aim – which at least implies thinking about teleology, direction, and maybe even purpose in evolution – is really the “first” aim. But to even hint that perhaps evolution is a purposeful thing – or, even more distantly hinted, perhaps a tool itself employed by a designer – is to invite potential panic, and guilt-by-association with some ID thought crime.

So some theatre is required. ID is denounced, loyalty to the great Defenders of Science is established, and everyone can get on – however carefully – with the business of maybe, kinda, sorta asking if the Blind Watchmaker may have been able to see a little after all.

Comments
"And then make it a front page post at least once a month." Nah. Let's scare away the people who are only in it for cheap fodder. Worked for Jesus (John 6).tragic mishap
April 4, 2011
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myname,if God picks up a book, or takes a walk in the park, is that supernatural just because he's God? It would only be supernatural if he willingly suspends or bypasses the laws of physics, but I dont see why God cannot willingly work within the physical bounds he created. If he engineered life, he wouldnt need to break the laws of nature to accomplish that any more than we need to break the laws of nature when we engineer computers,space shuttles, ect.....kuartus
April 4, 2011
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myname, Is god supernatural? Beats me. Which god are we talking about here? Zeus? And what does this have to do with ID's central tenets? God and gods are among the possibilities of designers - alongside aliens, demiurges, impersonal telic processes, simulations, etc. If so is the process of god guiding an evolutionary process a natural process or a supernatural process? Assuming we're speaking of a god, it depends on which god we're talking about, and how the guidance manifests. Front-loading? Intervention? And again, what does this have to do with ID's central tenets? Which tenet says that the designer of anything in the universe must be supernatural, much less a god? That life can’t have evolved by purely natural processes. Can't possibly have? ID doesn't make that claim. ID proponents make an (if possibly strong) inference about design being an explanation for some what we see in nature, with the possibility of said inference being weakened or overruled at a future date depending on the data that comes in. And if Craig Venter creates biological artifact X in a laboratory, did X come about through 'natural processes'? Or is Craig Venter an example of the supernatural? Is any powerful intelligence supernatural by default?nullasalus
April 4, 2011
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kairosfocus, Yup, I read those. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree- I say the blind watchmaker definition is incompatible with ID. I am pretty sure Dr Behe agrees. IMHO 9 & 10 need to be rewritten and retitled.Joseph
April 4, 2011
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myname- I don't think that is the proper claim. Do you have a reference? Blind, undirected (chemical) processes, is what I have read.Joseph
April 4, 2011
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I'll take a shot at why the designer must be "other worldly". Is it a true statement of Id theory that biological info cannot come from a undirected non biological source?velikovskys
April 4, 2011
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@nullasalus Is god supernatural? If so is the process of god guiding an evolutionary process a natural process or a supernatural process? By all means, name the claims and tell me how “the only logical consequence” is that the designer is supernatural. That life can't have evolved by purely natural processes.myname
April 4, 2011
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T, This is what happens when “science” becomes captive to one narrow set of conceptions, be they methodological, epistemological, or metaphysical. It becomes politicized, and one has to tread carefully to avoid offending the ruling regime. That's the real take-home message of this, I suppose. The fact that the website requires some kind of ritual sacrifice before even meekly gesturing somewhere in the direction of teleology speaks volumes. Conway Morris, to his credit, is sometimes pretty bold about his views. Really, that's a great article - if more TEs were like that, I'd be cheering them on. I don't know if he was personally involved with that 'aims' entry on the site either. But that makes the whole thing all the more silly, this ritual faux-slaughter of ID before even beginning to discuss direction in evolution. And really, if it's necessary, is it too much to ask that they at least get it right? Who am I kidding. The answer is "yes". And that's just one more reason why my ID sympathies have remained over the years.nullasalus
April 4, 2011
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Joseph: WAC's 9 - 10: ____________ >> 9] “Evolution” Proves that Intelligent Design is Wrong The word “evolution” can mean different things. The simplest meaning is one of natural history of the appearance of different living forms. A stronger meaning implies common descent, in its universal form (all organisms have descended from a single common ancestor) or in partial form (particular groups of organisms have descended from a common ancestor). “Evolution” is often defined as descent with modifications, or simply as changes in the frequencies of alleles in the gene pool of a population. None of those definitions can prove ID wrong, because none are in any way incompatible with it. ID is a theory about the cause of genetic information, not about the modalities or the natural history of its appearance, and is in no way incompatible with many well known patterns of limited modification of that information usually defined as “microevolution.” ID affirms that design is the cause, or at least a main cause, of complex biological information. A theory which would indeed be alternative to ID, and therefore could prove it wrong, is any empirically well-supported “causal theory” which excludes design; in other words any theory that fits well with the evidence and could explain the presence or emergence of complex biological information through chance, necessity, any mix of the two, or any other scenario which does not include design. However, once we rule out “just-so stories” and the like, we will see that there is not today, nor has there ever been, such a theory. Furthermore, the only empirically well-supported source of functionally specific, complex information is: intelligence. To sum it up: no definition of evolution is really incompatible with an ID scenario. Any causal theory of evolution which does not include design is obviously alternative to, and incompatible with, ID. However, while many such theories have indeed been proposed, they are consistently wanting in the necessary degree of empirical support. By contrast, design is an empirically known source of the class of information – complex, specified information (CSI) — exhibited by complex biological systems. 10] The Evidence for Common Descent is Incompatible with Intelligent Design ID is a theory about the cause of complex biological information. Common descent (CD) is a theory about the modalities of implementation of that information. They are two separate theories about two different aspects of the problem, totally independent and totally compatible. In other words, one can affirm CD and ID, CD and Darwinian Evolution, or ID and not CD. However, if one believes in Darwinian Evolution, CD is a necessary implication. CD theory exists in two forms, universal CD and partial CD. No one can deny that there are evidences for the theory of CD (such as ERVs, homologies and so on). That’s probably the reason why many IDists do accept CD. Others do not agree that those evidences are really convincing, or suggest that they may reflect in part common design. But ID theory, proper, has nothing to do with all that. ID affirms that design is the key cause of complex biological information. The implementation of design can well be realized through common descent, that is through implementation of new information in existing biological beings. That can be done gradually or less gradually. All these are modalities of the implementation of information, and not causes of the information itself. ID theory is about causes. >> _____________ I think that this is clear enough. There is such a thing as an intellectual duty of being truthful and fair. If one is just a click or two away form something like this, and insists on a strawmannish distortion, that goes to a failure of intellectual duty. But then, evolutionary materialism, ever since Plato, has been known to be amoral and prone to ruthless, manipulative factions. (And if you doubt me on this in respect of more recent history, kindly cf here.) GEM of TKIkairosfocus
April 4, 2011
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(follow up from my comment #7) From Dembski’s CV:
Contributor, “Prospects for Post-Darwinian Science,” symposium, New College, Oxford, August 2000. Other contributors included Michael Denton, Peter Saunders, Mae-Wan Ho, David Berlinski, Jonathan Wells, Stephen Meyer, and Simon Conway Morris.
http://www.designinference.com/documents/PDF_Current_CV_Dembski.pdfjohn_a_designer
April 4, 2011
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But on 3# I have to say that IC biological structures have in their definition that they can’t arise by an evolutionary process. So this is really a no-brainer. No, they don't. They're suggested not to arise by Darwinian evolutionary means. Other evolutionary processes can be possible. While it may not be implicit in ID if you put a few ID claims together the only logical consequence is that the designer is supernatural. No, it's not. By all means, name the claims and tell me how "the only logical consequence" is that the designer is supernatural - and make sure these are central tenets while you're at it, rather than individual ID-related claims. Keep in mind, "supernatural" (along with "natural") are words that are nearly bereft of meaning at this point. And in public debates Steven Meyer and others usually admit that they think the intelligent designer is god. They also stress that their conclusions about who or what is responsible for design are distinct from ID, which they claim does not (and really, cannot) identify the designer. So I don’t really understand why on this blog this is such an issue. It's possible you misunderstand ID.nullasalus
April 4, 2011
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I will bite my tongue on #1. But on 3# I have to say that IC biological structures have in their definition that they can't arise by an evolutionary process. So this is really a no-brainer. Okay to #1: While it may not be implicit in ID if you put a few ID claims together the only logical consequence is that the designer is supernatural. And in public debates Steven Meyer and others usually admit that they think the intelligent designer is god. So I don't really understand why on this blog this is such an issue.myname
April 4, 2011
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nullasalus: 1) If it’s the central tenet of the ID movement that organisms were supernaturally created, then I missed the memo. Last I checked, the main ID proponents typically stress that ID absolutely does not claim that the designer, or designs were “supernatural” in nature. I remember reading someplace Dr. Dembski saying that in the late 1990’s he along with Michael Denton (and maybe some others) traveled to London where they met Conway Morris. I believe that it was some kind of conference or colloquium on ID, or ID related issues. Therefore, I can’t believe that Conway Morris is that ignorant of ID, which of course, implies that he is either being dishonest or trying to say the right things as not to be ostracized by his peers. However, neither of those positions speak very highly of his integrity as either a scientist or a human being.john_a_designer
April 4, 2011
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Good post, nullasalus. To your list of complaints let me add mine: "Not only that but we understand how each of the component parts became adapted [to] make the complex structure that exists today." Oh, really? So Conway Morris (or whoever wrote that blurb) can give us a stepwise list of changes from land mammal to whale, telling us how each change was adaptive, all the way up to a viable cetacean? I'd be interested in getting the volume and issue numbers of the journals in which Conway Morris (or whoever produced the above text) has published these results. (Maybe they are the same journals in which Ken Miller has published the stepwise path to the flagellum, telling us how each additional part was adaptive.) The bluster of Darwinians knows no end. But as you say, nullasalus, it's likely that Conway Morris is moving, ever so cautiously and tentatively, away from the classic Darwinian formulation of evolution and toward something teleological. But any language that sounds like "design" must be avoided, or Conway Morris will be ostracized from the fraternity by his peers. So how do you talk about teleology, even when the scientific evidence points that way, without being savaged by the biological community? The dance one has to perform is like navigating between Scylla and Charybdis. This is what happens when "science" becomes captive to one narrow set of conceptions, be they methodological, epistemological, or metaphysical. It becomes politicized, and one has to tread carefully to avoid offending the ruling regime. Why not just put everything on the table? Scientists should say: "We're interested in finding out what really happened, and we don't care if the data point to hypotheses that don't meet with the approval of an elite of ageing population geneticists. From this moment on, *all* views are on the table for discussion." Neither Conway Morris nor anyone else should have to apologize for following the evidence wherever it leads.Timaeus
April 4, 2011
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kairosfocus, Thank you but that is a weak argument. For one it needs to have a stronger "title" , ie Intelligent Design Is NOT Anti-Evoution. And then it needs to be the first point. For example- Evolution has several meanings. The meanings of evolution, from Darwinism, Design and Public Education: 1. Change over time; history of nature; any sequence of events in nature 2. Changes in the frequencies of alleles in the gene pool of a population 3. Limited common descent: the idea that particular groups of organisms have descended from a common ancestor. 4. The mechanisms responsible for the change required to produce limited descent with modification, chiefly natural selection acting on random variations or mutations. 5. Universal common descent: the idea that all organisms have descended from a single common ancestor. 6. “Blind watchmaker” thesis: the idea that all organisms have descended from common ancestors solely through an unguided, unintelligent, purposeless, material processes such as natural selection acting on random variations or mutations; that the mechanisms of natural selection, random variation and mutation, and perhaps other similarly naturalistic mechanisms, are completely sufficient to account for the appearance of design in living organisms. Make it clear that ID argues only against #6:
Scott refers to me as an intelligent design "creationist," even though I clearly write in my book Darwin's Black Box (which Scott cites) that I am not a creationist and have no reason to doubt common descent. In fact, my own views fit quite comfortably with the 40% of scientists that Scott acknowledges think "evolution occurred, but was guided by God." -Dr Behe
Referece Dr Spetner's "Not By Chance" in which he discusses the role of "built-in mechanisms to environmental cues" as part of his "non-random evolutionary hypothesis". Say something about mutations being directed pretty much a computer program directs an output, as spell-checker is so directed- no intervention required- they are under software control. And then make it a front page post at least once a month.Joseph
April 4, 2011
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Joseph: The "post" is already there, and it is permanently linked, top right, this and every UD page: the weak argument correctives, starting from the first several correctives. Been there, literally, for years. We are not dealing with innocent ignorance here, but with willful distortion in service to a rhetorical agenda that has to distort to be persuasive to anyone. Utterly telling. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
April 4, 2011
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The strawman of "remained unchanged" goes back to Charles Darwin- and most likely dates to before that. A few years back (2006?)Bill Nye "the science guy" was on one of the news channels pushing that same strawman. Recently (2010) on MSNBC Olberman was doing he same thing. Perhaps UD needs a post about that- that ID is not anti-evolution- rater ID i anti- the blind watchmaker having sole dominion over evolutionary processes.Joseph
April 4, 2011
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Or better linked: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/12/13/101213fa_fact_lehrer#ixzz1ITKa7k33Charlie
April 4, 2011
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Null: Under aim no 1:
First, that evolution is true. Forms of life change over time, or evolve, as successive generations inherit genetic, epigenetic or cultural information that is modified relative to their ancestors. Features of the changing environment in which organisms live favour differential survival of individuals with the most suitable (or ‘adapted’) modifications for living there. This leads to change in species over time, or their extinction if the environment changes too fast for ecologically well-adapted variants to become established.
Taken at strict face value, this is something that many modern young earth creationists would agree with. But if what is meant is unlimited variability and descent with modification forming novel body plans through blind watchmaker random walks and culling of sub-pops on differential reproductive succe4ss, that is very different. And, it runs into the challenge: where is the observational evidence of such body plan origination? If there is none, then why the extravagant assertions of truth? An inference to best current explanation is not to be equated to truth beyond reasonable dispute, and what evidence of observation supports should not be extrapolated to what is controversial and questionable as though the factual evidence for the one established the other as similarly factual. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
April 4, 2011
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The sites second aim is; 'Second, that evolution repeatedly navigates to stunningly similar solutions from very different starting points. Through the surprisingly ubiquitous process of convergent evolution, organisms as distantly related as moths and birds, ciliates and worms, when inhabiting similar environments, have developed similar features as adaptive solutions to life there. This suggests that evolutionary outcomes can be much more predictable than generally thought, and raises interesting questions about how patterns of convergence arise.' ,,, and yet if we get past the 'almighty power of evolution' 'just so' story here we find,,, Implications of Genetic Convergent Evolution for Common Descent - Casey Luskin - Sept. 2010 Excerpt: When building evolutionary trees, evolutionists assume that functional genetic similarity is the result of inheritance from a common ancestor. Except for when it isn't. And when the data doesn't fit their assumptions, evolutionists explain it away as the result of "convergence." Using this methodology, one can explain virtually any dataset. Is there a way to falsify common descent, even in the face of convergent genetic similarity? If convergent genetic evolution is common, how does one know if their tree is based upon homologous sequences or convergent ones? Critics like me see the logic underlying evolutionary trees to be methodologically inconsistent, unpersuasive, and ultimately arbitrary. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/09/implications_of_genetic_conver037841.html Origin of Hemoglobins: A Repeated Problem for Biological Evolution - 2010 Excerpt: When analyzed from an evolutionary perspective, it appears as if the hemoglobins originated independently in jawless vertebrates and jawed vertebrates.,,, This result fits awkwardly within the evolutionary framework. It also contradicts the results of the Long-term Experimental Evolution (LTEE; Lenski) study, which demonstrated that microevolutionary biochemical changes are historically contingent. http://www.reasons.org/origin-hemoglobins-repeated-problem-biological-evolution Convergence: Evidence for a Single Creator - Fazale Rana Excerpt: When critically assessed, the evolutionary paradigm is found to be woefully inadequate when accounting for all the facets of biological convergence. On the other hand, biological convergence is readily explained by an origins model that evokes a single Creator (reusing optimal designs). http://www.reasons.org/convergence-evidence-single-creator Perhaps Morris and company should be interested in actually demonstrating that evolution can build ANY molecular machine whatsoever instead of just assuming that it happened as a starting point?!? Articles and Videos on Molecular Motors http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYmaSrBPNEmGZGM4ejY3d3pfMzlkNjYydmRkZw&hl=en Michael Behe - Life Reeks Of Design - 2010 - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5066181 ,,,in spite of the fact of finding molecular motors permeating the simplest of bacterial life, there are no detailed Darwinian accounts for the evolution of even one such motor or system. "There are no detailed Darwinian accounts for the evolution of any fundamental biochemical or cellular system only a variety of wishful speculations. It is remarkable that Darwinism is accepted as a satisfactory explanation of such a vast subject." James Shapiro - Molecular Biologist The following expert doesn't even hide his very unscientific preconceived philosophical bias against intelligent design,,, ‘We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity,,, Yet at the same time the same expert readily admits that neo-Darwinism has ZERO evidence for the chance and necessity of material processes producing any cellular system whatsoever,,, ,,,we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical or cellular system, only a variety of wishful speculations.’ Franklin M. Harold,* 2001. The way of the cell: molecules, organisms and the order of life, Oxford University Press, New York, p. 205. *Professor Emeritus of Biochemistry, Colorado State University, USA Michael Behe - No Scientific Literature For Evolution of Any Irreducibly Complex Molecular Machines http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5302950/ “The response I have received from repeating Behe's claim about the evolutionary literature, which simply brings out the point being made implicitly by many others, such as Chris Dutton and so on, is that I obviously have not read the right books. There are, I am sure, evolutionists who have described how the transitions in question could have occurred.” And he continues, “When I ask in which books I can find these discussions, however, I either get no answer or else some titles that, upon examination, do not, in fact, contain the promised accounts. That such accounts exist seems to be something that is widely known, but I have yet to encounter anyone who knows where they exist.” David Ray Griffin - retired professor of philosophy of religion and theology What I find very persuasive, to the suggestion that the universe was designed with life in mind, is that physicists find many processes in a cell operate at the 'near optimal' capacities allowed in any physical system: William Bialek - Professor Of Physics - Princeton University: Excerpt: "A central theme in my research is an appreciation for how well things “work” in biological systems. It is, after all, some notion of functional behavior that distinguishes life from inanimate matter, and it is a challenge to quantify this functionality in a language that parallels our characterization of other physical systems. Strikingly, when we do this (and there are not so many cases where it has been done!), the performance of biological systems often approaches some limits set by basic physical principles. While it is popular to view biological mechanisms as an historical record of evolutionary and developmental compromises, these observations on functional performance point toward a very different view of life as having selected a set of near optimal mechanisms for its most crucial tasks.,,,The idea of performance near the physical limits crosses many levels of biological organization, from single molecules to cells to perception and learning in the brain,,,," http://www.princeton.edu/~wbialek/wbialek.html Physicists Finding Perfection… in Biology — June 1st, 2009 by Biologic Staff Excerpt: "biological processes tend to be optimal in cases where this can be tested." http://biologicinstitute.org/2009/06/01/physicists-finding-perfection-in-biology/bornagain77
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