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Craig Crushes Ayala

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Here.

Ayala gives two objections to design:  (1) The design we see is suboptimal; and (2) the cruelty we see in nature precludes an inference to a good designer.

Craig first shows a picture of a dilapidated old East German Trabant, one of the worst cars ever made.  He then shows a picture of a shiny new Mercedes E Class.

Then he makes the following argument.

1.  The Trabant is obviously designed.

2.  The Trabant design is obviously sub-optimal.

3.  Therefore, the fact that a design is sub-optimal does not invalidate the design inference.

Conclusion:  Known designs exhibit various degrees of optimality.  Therefore, there is simply no reason to restrict design inferences only to maximally optimal designs.  If a structure meets Dembski’s criteria for inferring design, that inference is not nullified by the mere possibility that the structure could have been better designed.

Craig then shows a picture of a medieval torture device and makes the following argument.

1.  The torture device is obviously designed.

2.  The designer was obviously not good.

3.  Therefore, the possibility that the designer is not good does not preclude a design inference.*

Conclusion:  The design inference says absolutely nothing about the moral qualities of the designer.

 

*Theologians have answers to the “cruelty” objection, but those answers are not within the province of the ID project as such.

Comments
Upright, I suppose, while I await your citations, I could say this. Yes, evolution depends on a mechanism being available for inheritance. However the only person who is arguing for the fixity of this mechanism is you, nobody else. Presumably you believe that the protein synthesis system as we know it came into existence with the first lifeform. What leads you to believe this? Citation? I have to assume that everybody working in OOL recognizes the mechanism of inheritance must have arisen without the aid of evolution, and that means that much research is aimed at finding those simple replications that could arise spontaneously given prevailing conditions on pre-life earth. So your argument is not really much of an argument at all is it? You are simply saying the same thing that everybody else is saying except adding "and that was only possible by intelligent design" at the end. When you are done riding the coat-tails of others research then perhaps you'll be ready to publish your claim in the literature, presumably with citations. So on the one hand we have thousands of man-hours of research being done a day on this problem and on the other hand we have you, who's claim seems to be summed up with: "Life only comes from life". If that's the case, what life did life as we know it come from? The long and the short of it is that your claim that evolution itself requires the system in order to exist remains just that - a claim, nothing more or less. Just one claim among many. When you actually put the work into making it supported then perhaps it'll become more then a mere claim. So, another question for you to ignore then while you repeat your claim over and over: If life was designed was the designer: A) Part of the universe (i.e. an alien) B) Not part of the universe (i.e. god). C) Don't know. Furthermore, if life was designed was the designer: A) The same as the designer of the universe B) A different designer. Of course these will just be your personal opinion, but then again so is your main claim....mphillips
August 16, 2012
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Eric @ 48
One of the great ironies of the atheist mind is that no-one is more cock-sure of exactly what God is like, exactly what God would think, exactly what God would do, than the committed atheist
Funny how you can't help but move from "the designer" to "God" without thinking. So to you "the designer == God". And my question re: cruelty makes no logical sense then because you have the getout "well, gods' ways are mysterious" which answers everything.
Why would someone think that a designer would have those kinds of goals in mind?
Could it be because of the fact that people at UD are constantly making the claim that "the cosmos was designed for humans and for humans to explore"? It almost seems like that film "Cube" then, where the designers create mazes for the people to solve. TBH If you believe that the same "designer" created parasites that burrow into your eye as created the cosmos for discovery then I think I'll stay on Earth as I suspect there's more then an eye-worm waiting for us out there, given what's been created for us here already. So the point is you can't have it both ways. Either evolution created the "nasty" stuff and therefore evolution is powerful mojo, or your "designer" did it.
Second, if everything is, as the materialist asserts, simply the result of colliding matter and energy, without any plan, purpose, or meaning, then there is no such thing as “cruel nature” or “evil nature.” Nature just is.
Yet you'll still think it cruel were you to be infected in the eye, regardless of your ultimate beliefs. And to be honest, I think I prefer "colliding matter and energy" being all there is if the alternative is a designer that creates works that burrow into your eye.mphillips
August 16, 2012
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tjguy: I see no contradiction between the existence of carnivorous animals and "good design." Good design doesn't mean the design of a world like that depicted on "Barney." Moralizing the word "good" in the context of the design of a cosmos and its inhabitants is an unwise thing to do. "Good" in the cosmic context means functional, useful, appropriate, fitting the overall scheme, not sweet, nice, pleasant, delightful, etc. The problem with most modern Christians is that their Jesus, and even their God, is pictured as a sort of Biblical version of "Barney." This "candy cane theology" of saccharine sweetness makes the Christian doctrine of creation an easy target for people like Matzke and Ayala. The remedy for this is for Christians to spend a lot more time reading the Old Testament, and those parts of the New Testament that aren't often read in services or emphasized in Sunday school. God didn't create the world with maximum pleasure and comfort for its inhabitants in mind. A world like that would be the Brave New World of Aldous Huxley. But according to non-sappy, traditional Christian theology, God had something more rigorous in mind. In any case, even if Christian theology did require creation to be all sweetness and light, what has that got to do with ID? ID isn't a specifically Christian position; it's held by Jews, Deists, and others. Any flaws that allegedly exist in Christian theology don't touch ID. As far as ID is concerned, if it can show there's any design at all, even incompetent design, Ayala, Dawkins, etc. are refuted. And that was Craig's point. Of course, refuting Ayala (and Ken Miller, who makes similar arguments, and a number of other TEs who have followed suit) is like shooting ducks in a barrel. These people *can't* think philosophically or theologically to save their lives. (In that way, they remind me of the staff and leadership of the NCSE, and the entire roster of biologists who have ever posted on BioLogos.) It's almost unsporting for someone with the philosophical education of Craig to take these guys on. On the other hand, they are all so utterly arrogant that I'm glad he does. By the way, tjguy, where are you getting your information that ID is committed to an old earth position? Lots of ID people are YECs. Even some of the leaders are, and many of the rank and file as well. Of course, the whole point is that YEC-OEC-evolution is a matter of indifference for ID. That's why Paul Nelson, Bill Dembski and Mike Behe are on the same team. ID is about design vs. chance, not about a particular reading of the Bible or a particular position on common descent.Timaeus
August 16, 2012
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Joe @ 40
Exactly, that is what science is for.
Except that science has no interest in discovering the answers from an ID perspective. Only you can make that happen Joe, only you!
I neither like nor dislike scientific answers. I accept them and use that knowledge accordingly.
Yet you reject common descent, one of the best supported scientific claims. Plus you simply deny that transitional forms exist, whereas "science" has shown that they do. You don't accept what science says in any way whatsoever unless you already believed it.
Why the equivocation, petrushka?
I'm not that person. Why the fear to answer the question Joe? Is it because your "it was once perfect" answer is no answer at all here?mphillips
August 16, 2012
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Upright @ 32
The already documented physics of symbol systems, as described in peer-reviewed literature. Plus the principle of uniformitarianism.
Citation please.
Life requires organization. That is a universal observation, and it is at the very center of OoL research. Biological organization stems from biological information. That is a universal observation as well. What are you suggesting as an alternative?
Citation please.
I don’t… but then again I made no claims about that. In any case, no matter how it began, it eventually had to cross the threshold of having a symbol system if it was to evolve and result in us.
Citation please.
I have not seen the evidence for this scenario, perhaps you can give me a reference to a demonstration of the involved principles at work.
Of course. Perhaps you could provide a similar demonstration of your claimed origin of life.
Do you believe it is possible to transfer recorded information (the form of a thing) in a material universe without the use of a representation instantiated in material medium?
I’ll stop here and give you a chance to answer the question I asked earlier and several times since. Are you talking about the origin of life? Yes/No will do. Upright @ 33
I made none of the claims or statements.
If it's not your claim thatrecorded information existed without a representation instantiated in material medium and then recorded information existed with a representation instantiated in material medium after event X, where event X is the presumed intervention of the intelligent designer bringing that information into (presumably) our universe, then what is the relevance of your argument to ID? If not ID then a non-intelligent process would suffice, no?
I would ask you which of thes two items you want to take issue with, but instead, it simply appears that you would like to speak for me in order to avoid what I’ve said.
Says the person who won't answer if they are making a claim about the origin of life or not. Once you have provided the relevant citations for your many claims then perhaps I'll engage you, once I know what it is you are actually talking about. Until then, if you are looking for a conversation why not go over to TSZ where you have left the conversation unfinished.
Thats the empirically enlightened thing to do, is it not?
Says the person who speaks like they have special insight and knowledge about the origin of life but is basing it on "The already documented physics of symbol systems, as described in peer-reviewed literature". Citation please, and please include a citation that shows that these "symbol systems" that arose at or near the OOL were designed. Otherwise your claim that the literature supports you is simply invalid.mphillips
August 16, 2012
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EA I think you have pretty much summed it up there, thanks. Saves me the bother :o)PeterJ
August 15, 2012
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mphillips:
Out of interest, how do you square the “parasite behavior is too complex to have evolved” with the circle of “cruelty we see in nature” etc etc. Did the parasite behavior evolve? If so, seems evolution can do quite alot after all. If it did not, well, where does that leave a “good” designer?
Sure, I'm willing to go with your parasite example and to assume, for purposes of discussion, that it would meet a design inference. So what? All that means is that it was designed. First, who said anything about the designer being "good"? And if the designer were good, would you recognize it? What is this subjective designation of "good" you have in mind? Is it lack of pain, an easy life, an existence of comfort, living forever without death? Why would someone think that a designer would have those kinds of goals in mind? Is that what this existence is about -- just having endless ease and comfort? Or is it about learning, experiencing (both the good and the bad), growing, coming to understanding, renewing the circle of life, making room for the next generation, and other experiences that make life what it is? The argument from cruelty/evil/pain/suffering is a religious/philosophical argument that rests on the person's ideas and personal wishes about what they think the designer should be like. ----- [Begin sidebar.] I don't personally extend the design inference to any deity and typically avoid discussions of God on this forum, but the argument about cruelty/evil/pain/suffering reminds me of a memorable exchange in Catch 22:
"Don't tell me God works in mysterious ways," Yosarrian continued, hurtling on over her objection. "There's nothing so mysterious about it. He's not working at all. He's playing. Or else, He's forgotten all about us. How much reverence can you have for a supreme being who finds it necessary to include such phenomena as phlegm and tooth decay in His divine system of creation? . . . Why in the world did He ever create pain?" "Stop it! Stop it!" she cried. "What the hell are you getting so upset about? I thought you didn't believe in God." "I don't," she sobbed, bursting violently into tears. "But the God I don't believe in is a good God, a just God, a merciful God. He's not the mean and stupid God you make him out to be!"
One of the great ironies of the atheist mind is that no-one is more cock-sure of exactly what God is like, exactly what God would think, exactly what God would do, than the committed atheist. Of course he doesn't believe in God, but if God did exist, he knows precisely what God would be like and how God would behave. Or so he thinks . . . [End sidebar.] ----- Second, if everything is, as the materialist asserts, simply the result of colliding matter and energy, without any plan, purpose, or meaning, then there is no such thing as "cruel nature" or "evil nature." Nature just is. The materialist's heartfelt cry against the cruelty of nature is dashed to pieces against his own doctrine of the universe's "blind pitiless indifference" (Dawkins). Bottom line: The argument against design by pointing to bad/evil/suboptimal design is not a scientific argument at all. It is a dual mistake of: (i) jumping to a conclusion about who the designer must be, coupled with (ii) a religious/philosophical reflection of one's own beliefs about deity -- and a rather simplistic, juvenile set of beliefs at that.Eric Anderson
August 15, 2012
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"Therefore, the fact that a design is sub-optimal does not invalidate the design inference." I would add here the what is sub optimal is a bit subjective. The designs tend to work pretty well and often times they are not as sub-optimal as we might think. Another explanation for bad design is degeneration of the genome over time. "Therefore, the possibility that the designer is not good does not preclude a design inference." True, but Ayala is right that we do believe in a GOOD Creator. While I wholeheartedly agree with the design paradigm and Craig's arguments here, I think this is the weakest part of ID. Believing in an old earth forces one to accept poor design and the existence of cruelty, suffering, death, and bloodshed as part of the Creator's "very good" design. Needless to say this just doesn't make sense. But given ID's commitment to an old earth, it is forced to make strange interpretations to somehow try and accommodate this difficulty. Dembski tries to make the effects of the fall retroactive. That is one way some try and solve this problem, but I am not comfortable with that position at all. The young earth position says that a perfect creation was later marred by man's sin. The creation itself was cursed when man sinned. This seems to make much better sense of the biblical account and it also avoids this problem of casting a poor light on the Creator for his poor design and His use of death, cruelty, suffering, etc in His design of living things. All this to say that, although I don't question the design of living things for one minute, I can see how this causes a problem for those trying to figure out how all this suffering fits with the God of the Bible. YEC teaches that one day God will restore the earth to it's former glory, to the way it was before sin entered the world. It will once again be the way God intended it to be. There are prophecies in Isaiah that speak to this: For instance, Isaiah 11:6-9 says this: 6 The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 The cow and the bear shall graze; their young shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 The nursing child shall play over the hole of the cobra, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder's den. 9 They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea. This passage gives the idea that this is God's ideal world. It gives the idea that the removal of the Curse will result in a world where animals do not harm each other. So it would seem then that this was indeed the way it was in the beginning before the earth was cursed. It gives the idea of a return to the way it was in God's pre-fall creation(Eden) where the animals were all vegetarians(Gen. 1:29-30)and peace reigned in the animal kingdom because death, suffering, bloodshed, and thorns did not yet exist. The YEC view also avoids criticisms like Ayala's and this one by Christian evangelist turned apostate Charles Templeton: ‘The grim and inescapable reality is that all life is predicated on death. Every carnivorous creature must kill and devour another creature. It has no option. How could a loving and omnipotent God create such horrors? … Surely it would not be beyond the competence of an omniscient deity to create an animal world that could be sustained and perpetuated without suffering and death.’ YECers agree with Templeton. We think not only that God could have, but that He actually did create an animal world that could be sustained and perpetuated without suffering and death. We think that this is what the Bible actually teaches and that this type of perfect creation best displays His glory, power, and wisdom. Of course, suffering and death is also a challenge for young earthers. There are various explanations for how the creation changed after the curse. I think most center on the idea that God knew that sin would enter the world and the creation would be cursed. So He created them with the as of yet unexpressed genetic potential to kill and survive in a violent cruel world. That potential was then released after the fall. Perhaps a genetic switch turned these genes on for example. We aren't told details here as to exactly how it happened, just that this is what happened. I personally feel the YEC position makes more sense and avoids the problem of marring the glory of God and painting the Creator in a bad light.tjguy
August 15, 2012
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"Above all, do not attempt to use science (I mean, the real sciences) as a defence against Christianity. They will positively encourage him to think about realities he can't touch and see." -- The Screwtape Letters. Gil, it would seem to me that you are rather in Wormwood's bind; but with the Materialists rather than that other sort.Maus
August 15, 2012
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I watched the Craig-Ayala debate some time ago. Ayala, despite his credentials, essentially made a fool of himself. Ayala was obviously completely uniformed about ID theory, its argumentation, and evidence. I actually felt sorry for poor Ayala because he was so completely outclassed by Craig. Design in living systems is so evident (complex functionally-integrated information and the associated computationally-controlled machinery) that I remain completely mystified by the fact that intelligent, rational, educated people remain so obstinate in their denial of reality, as discovered and elucidated by modern science. Oh, I almost forgot. If such people actually accepted the evidence, they would be required to abandon their materialistic worldview, accept intelligent design as an objective feature of the universe and living systems, and admit that they were wrong about everything that ultimately matters. For such people, hanging on to a scientifically preposterous thesis is preferable to admitting error and pursuing the evidence where it leads. Of course, they don't like where the evidence leads, so they deny it, and mount increasingly ludicrous defenses of the indefensible.GilDodgen
August 15, 2012
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No. It is not likely to survive.
This is not correct. A biological system might be suboptimal but still allow an organism to survive and even confer an advantage on it. In short, while the arrangement and operations of parts of the system might not be optimal - i.e., they were cobbled together by random mutation and natural selection - the function of the system does offer an advantage.Genomicus
August 15, 2012
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My apologies. I was referring to this comment by PaV: 'Take away the theological argument, and Darwin stands on nothing. Just ask Cornelius Hunter.'Axel
August 15, 2012
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It was what Darwin graduated in, wasn't it? I think he started to study medicine, but science wasn't for him... and don't we know it?Axel
August 15, 2012
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"Acknowledge that if a biological system is inherently flawed in its design, then it is not likely to be the product of intelligent design,.." No. It is not likely to survive. And I speak not as an evolutionist, but as a creationist.Axel
August 15, 2012
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So, Joe, if the questions are “evolved from what?” and “how did it evolve?” what’s your answer to those questions? Or is that what science is for, perhaps, to find out answers to those questions?
Exactly, that is what science is for.
What happens if you don’t like the answers?
I neither like nor dislike scientific answers. I accept them and use that knowledge accordingly.
So, Joe, how do you explain the unevolvable co-ordination between parasite and host? Or do you explain it by ignoring it?
Why the equivocation, petrushka?Joe
August 15, 2012
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Very few suboptimal improvisations have been proposed (Stephen Jay Gould's panda thumb is the most famous example), and the fact that they are truly suboptimal is dubious (e.g., according to conventional theory, the panda's thumb has been adequate for millions of years). The biological world seems to be more optimal than evolutionary theory expects. ~ Kurt Wise We are far from understanding the complexity of individual organisms, let alone the entire ecosystem in which that organism lives. What appears to be less than optimal design to us with our limited knowledge may actually be an optimal design when the entire system is considered. Consider the thickness of armor plating on the side of a warship. Since the purpose of such plating is to protect the ship from the puncture of an incoming warhead, it is advantageous to make the plating as thick as possible. Yet the plating on actual warships is much thinner than it could be made. The reason is, of course, that an increase in plating thickness makes the ship heavier, and thus slower. A less movable ship is more likely to get hit more often and less likely to get to where it is needed when it is needed. The actual thickness of the armor on a warship is a tradeoff -- not so thin as to make the ship too easily sinkable, and not so thick as to make the ship too slow. We know too little about the complexity of organisms and the environment in which they live to conclude that any one particular feature is actually less than optimal. ~ Kurt Wisebevets
August 15, 2012
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1. In doing translation, does matter do anything that doesn’t follow known rules of chemistry?
Does translation follow any known rules of chemistry? There isn't any physio-chemical connection between the codon and the amino acid it represents- you do realize that, petrushka?Joe
August 15, 2012
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I know how Darwinists are always griping about how poorly designed the human body is just so to try to make a theological case against God and for neo-Darwinian evolution, but this study that came out a few days ago does not bode well as to the neo-Darwinists ever successfully making their case that the human body is poorly designed:
Modular Biological Complexity - Christof Koch - August 2012 Summary: It has been argued that the technological capability to fully simulate the human brain on digital computers will exist within a decade. This is taken to imply that we will comprehend its functioning, eliminate all diseases, and “upload” ourselves to computers (1). Although such predictions excite the imagination, they are not based on a sound assessment of the complexity of living systems. Such systems are characterized by large numbers of highly heterogeneous components, be they genes, proteins, or cells. These components interact causally in myriad ways across a very large spectrum of space-time, from nanometers to meters and from microseconds to years. A complete understanding of these systems demands that a large fraction of these interactions be experimentally or computationally probed. This is very difficult.,,, This is bad news. Consider a neuronal synapse -- the presynaptic terminal has an estimated 1000 distinct proteins. Fully analyzing their possible interactions would take about 2000 years. Or consider the task of fully characterizing the visual cortex of the mouse -- about 2 million neurons. Under the extreme assumption that the neurons in these systems can all interact with each other, analyzing the various combinations will take about 10 million years..., even though it is assumed that the underlying technology (in computers used to try to understand the biological interactions) speeds up by an order of magnitude each year. ,,, Improved technologies for observing and probing biological systems has only led to discoveries of further levels of complexity that need to be dealt with. This process has not yet run its course. We are far away from understanding cell biology, genomes, or brains, and turning this understanding into practical knowledge. http://www.sciencemag.org/content/337/6094/531.summary
Further notes:
The Multi-dimensional Genome -- by Dr Robert Carter - presentation starts approx 12:00 minute mark - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3faN5fU6_Y The Extreme Complexity Of Genes - Dr. Raymond G. Bohlin - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/8593991/
The following is interesting:
“The thyroid gland, pituitary gland, thymus, pineal gland, and coccyx, … once considered useless by evolutionists, are now known to have important functions. The list of 180 “vestigial” structures is practically down to zero. Unfortunately, earlier Darwinists assumed that if they were ignorant of an organ’s function, then it had no function.” "Tornado in a Junkyard" - book - by former atheist James Perloff
HMMM seems like the exact same argument that Darwinists are currently using for 'junk' DNA! i.e. if Darwinists are ignorant of function then that means it has no function in their view! Why? Because their theology demands it!bornagain77
August 15, 2012
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mphillips, Thanks for the reply. It seems to me that we still don't know precisely what cruelty is and by who's standard it should be measured. Why should it be cruel for a spider to be devoured in this way? And from a wasp's perspective this process probably doesn't seem cruel at all. I dunno. "Cruelty" sounds like something we add to nature, a moral characteristic, even though nature knows nothing of cruelty, right, wrong or and all the rest. How does one test for cruelty?lpadron
August 15, 2012
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NM: Lets do a responsiveness test. Above, Dr JDH stated:
The argument by Craig is extremely relevant [--> examples of sub-optimal design etc]. He shows that Ayala is not telling the truth in his objections. They are not anti-design arguments. As far as sub-optimal or evil designs, this is another failure. It is a religious, moral argument, not a scientific one. Once you acknowledge that it is a moral argument you have to find a basis for that morality. [--> In shoert, what is the worldview foundaitonal IS that you accept that objectively warrants OUGHT, including, rights. Without such, you are either borrowing without attribution or else you are holding to something that is amoral and/or nihilist] The terms “optimization” or “good” and “evil” can only be done in the context of what purpose the designs are trying to serve. [--> If you disagree, what is your alternative] If God is trying to demonstrate in nature the inadequacy of the natural man, and the terrible effect of sin on the natural world, then a perfect design which removed all suffering would be in fact sub-optimal.
1: Can you accurately and fairly sum up the argument in a short sentence or two? If not, then there is an issue of comprehension. I assume you can. 2: Having so summed up, do you agree, disagree or partly agree/disagree? If so, to what? 3: On what grounds? That is, why relative to facts and logic. 4: What is, in summary, your alternative, and why do you think it is warranted on the merits? If you are unwilling to answer such questions then genuine dialogue will be impossible. KFkairosfocus
August 15, 2012
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mphillips, What’s the deal with your concern over the violation of the laws of physics and chemistry?M. Holcumbrink
August 15, 2012
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I suppose that’s more of a question for you really. After all, it’s your claim that recorded information existed without a representation instantiated in material medium and then recorded information existed with a representation instantiated in material medium after event X, where event X is the presumed intervention of the intelligent designer bringing that information into (presumably) our universe. Tell me about that intervention Upright. If you believe it is possible can you explain how that might happen?
I made none of the claims or statements. All of my observations are based upon the physics of symbol systems and the principle of uniformitarianism. I would ask you which of thes two items you want to take issue with, but instead, it simply appears that you would like to speak for me in order to avoid what I've said. Thats the empirically enlightened thing to do, is it not?Upright BiPed
August 15, 2012
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mphillips,
Assuming then that you are in fact talking about the origin of life, where are you getting your information from?
The already documented physics of symbol systems, as described in peer-reviewed literature. Plus the principle of uniformitarianism.
You seem to know quite alot about what is and what is not required but the last time I checked nobody actually knew when or how life came to be (or “the system of symbols” if you prefer).
Life requires organization. That is a universal observation, and it is at the very center of OoL research. Biological organization stems from biological information. That is a universal observation as well. What are you suggesting as an alternative?
For example, how do you know that whatever it was that was first “alive” evolved at all in any way?
I don’t… but then again I made no claims about that. In any case, no matter how it began, it eventually had to cross the threshold of having a symbol system if it was to evolve and result in us.
You say the system is not the product of evolution because evolution itself requires the system in order to exist, I say the OOL happened to arrange things so that conditions were just right for the system to come into effect at exactly the right moment in order to allow evolution as we know it.
I have not seen the evidence for this scenario, perhaps you can give me a reference to a demonstration of the involved principles at work. - - - - - - - - - - - - I’ll stop here and give you a chance to answer the question I asked earlier: Do you believe it is possible to transfer recorded information (the form of a thing) in a material universe without the use of a representation instantiated in material medium? ...Upright BiPed
August 15, 2012
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Upright,
Is that your schtick?
That depends. Is your answer yes or no? It's not that I don't want to talk about the origin of life, it's that I want to know if that's what you are talking about. If I want to know about OOL I go places like this: http://astrobiology.nasa.gov/nai/ool-www/program/ There is plenty to talk about, no need to squint your eyes into the distance.
“I’d rather talk about evolution than any evidence for ID”.
In any case, what exactly is the relevance of your argument to ID? I don't see it. And Upright, out of interest, do you say that evolution can create new "bodyplans" (I.E. disagreeing with kariosfocus) or can it do most of what's claimed for it more or less with the exception of self-creating your symbol system at the very start?mphillips
August 15, 2012
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Upright,
Your questions revolves around the rather old and illogical assumption that symbol systems should/could/do violate some sort of physcial law. They don’t.
So I've got these answers for you then for my questions in 23, 1: Matter follows chemistry's rules always - check. 2: Mutation does not violate chemistry's rules - check. 3: ? 4: Nothing in the history of life violates the rules of physics and chemistry - check. 5: ? Care to fill in the blanks?
Do you beleive it is possible to transfer recorded information (the form of a thing) in a material universe without the use of a representation instantiated in material medium?
I suppose that's more of a question for you really. After all, it's your claim that recorded information existed without a representation instantiated in material medium and then recorded information existed with a representation instantiated in material medium after event X, where event X is the presumed intervention of the intelligent designer bringing that information into (presumably) our universe. Tell me about that intervention Upright. If you believe it is possible can you explain how that might happen?mphillips
August 15, 2012
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Are you talking about OOL or not?
Every time I encounter an ID critic who immediately runs for the cover of that question, is typically desperate to do so, so that they may squint their eyes off into the distance and say something to the effect that "OoL is still a mystery" ... so please don't talk to me about it ... "I'd rather talk about evolution than any evidence for ID". Is that your schtick? :)Upright BiPed
August 15, 2012
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Upright, One more question, if you please. You say:
This system is not the product of evolution because evolution itself requires the system in order to exist. To say that evolution produced this system is to say that a thing that does not yet exist can cause something to happen – which is obviously false.
Assuming then that you are in fact talking about the origin of life, where are you getting your information from? You seem to know quite alot about what is and what is not required but the last time I checked nobody actually knew when or how life came to be (or "the system of symbols" if you prefer). For example, how do you know that whatever it was that was first "alive" evolved at all in any way? And therefore the symbol system you refer to could have come about in a non-Darwinian way. It's not like you can gainsay me is it? You've no better source of information then I regarding the origin of life, for that *is* what you are talking about, is it not? You say the system is not the product of evolution because evolution itself requires the system in order to exist, I say the OOL happened to arrange things so that conditions were just right for the system to come into effect at exactly the right moment in order to allow evolution as we know it. Checkmate. After all, what's your alternative scenario? Aliens?mphillips
August 15, 2012
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mphillips, Your questions revolves around the rather old and illogical assumption that symbol systems should/could/do violate some sort of physcial law. They don't. But they do have specific material requirements which are both logically necessary as well as documented in nature. Do you beleive it is possible to transfer recorded information (the form of a thing) in a material universe without the use of a representation instantiated in material medium? If you believe it is possible otherwise, can you explain how that might happen.Upright BiPed
August 15, 2012
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Upright @ 24, Is that a yes or a no? You are talking about the origin of life, or something else? Are you talking about OOL or not? Can you be clear exactly what it is you are referencing?mphillips
August 15, 2012
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I am referring to the system of symbols that Darwinian evolution requires in order to operate. Are you familiar with the material requirements in order for a symbol system to exist?Upright BiPed
August 15, 2012
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