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Darwinist Propoganda Refuted by Other Darwinists


In a comment to a previous post, Jaceli123 writes:

Now I have a question for you guys is DNA simply just chemical reactions between DNA and RNA, does it really contain information or is it just the result of a chemical potential? From this video: [link]

Curious, I followed the link and found this video that was posted on Youtube by someone who calls himself “bdw5000” on July 24, 2013. Someone put a lot of time and effort into this video and its animations, and it makes some, shall we say, interesting claims. Some excerpts:


The ancestral molecule to RNA just behaved in a certain way for chemical reasons.


It is the molecular structure that mattered. Specifically, what mattered the most was the ability of the ancestral molecule to make copies of itself.

1:25 This is the core of the claims made:

Life is not an information phenomenon, but a bio-chemical one. DNA in living things does not store information but bio-chemical potential subject to the laws of chemistry and physics and not the laws of information.

Well. I don’t know who bdw5000 is, but the claims he makes in his video do not stand up to even the slightest scrutiny. What is more, we don’t have to rely on ID proponents to debunk his nonsense. His claims fly in the face of statements made by leading Darwinists. Let’s see.

All of life depends on the accurate transmission of information.

Miroslav Radman and Robert Wagner, “The High Fidelity of DNA Duplication,” Scientific American 259 (August 1988): 42, 40-46.

[The information in a DNA cell] if written out would fill a thousand 600-page books.

Rick Gore, “The Awesome Worlds Within a Cell,” National Geographic (September 1976): 360, 354-95

And at this point, strangely enough, the discovery of DNA, which is so widely thought to prove that life is mere chemistry, provides the missing link for proving the contrary. That the formation of a DNA molecule is embodied in the morphology of the corresponding offspring, assures us of the fact that this morphology is not the product of a chemical equilibration, but is designed by other than chemical forces.

Michael Polanyi, “Life Transcending Physics and Chemistry,” Chemical and Engineering News 45 (August 1967): 66, 55-66

Information theory can be applied to any situation involving messages. It follows therefore that the language of life, the genetic code written along the lengths of DNA molecules, in groups of three coding for the various twenty-two amino acids of proteins, can also be expressed in terms of a given amount of information.

Edmund Jack Ambrose, The Nature and Origin of the Biological World (New York: Halsted Press, 1982), 125.

However, the origin of life—or, to be more precise, the origin of the first replicator systems and the origin of translation-remains a huge enigma, and progress in solving these problems has been very modest — in the case of translation, nearly negligible. Some potentially fruitful observations and ideas exist, such as the discovery of plausible hatcheries for life, the networks of inorganic compartments at hydrothermal vents, and the chemical versatility of ribozymes that fuels the RNA World hypothesis. However, these advances remain only preliminaries, even if important ones, because they do not even come close to a coherent scenario for prebiological evolution, from the first organic molecules to the first replicator systems, and from these to bona fide biological entities in which information storage and function are partitioned between distinct classes of molecules (nucleic acids and proteins, respectively).

Koonin, Eugene V. (2012). The Logic of Chance: The Nature and Origin of Biological Evolution, Pearson Education, Inc., Publishing as FT Press Science, New Jersey, page 417.

Even the United States Supreme Court has weighed in on the issue.

Genes form the basis for hereditary traits in living organisms. See generally Association for Molecular Pathology v. United States Patent and Trademark Office, 702 F. Supp. 2d 181, 192-211 (SDNY 2010). The human genome consists of approximately 22,000 genes packed into 23 pairs of chromosomes. Each gene is encoded as DNA, which takes the shape of the familiar “double helix” that Doctors James Watson and Francis Crick first described in 1953. Each “cross-bar” in the DNA helix consists of two chemically joined nucleotides. The possible nucleotides are adenine (A), thymine (T), cytosine (C), and guanine (G), each of which binds naturally with another nucleotide: A pairs with T; C pairs with G. The nucleotide cross-bars are chemically connected to a sugar-phosphate backbone that forms the outside framework of the DNA helix. Sequences of DNA nucleotides contain the information necessary to create strings of amino acids, which in turn are used in the body to build proteins. Only some DNA nucleotides, however, code for amino acids; these nucleotides are known as “exons.” Nucleotides that do not code for amino acids, in contrast, are known as “introns.”

Ass’n for Molecular Pathology v. Myriad Genetics, Inc., 133 S. Ct. 2107, 2111 (2013)

Summary, saying that the information in DNA is merely an byproduct of the chemistry of the cell is like saying the information this sentence is merely a byproduct of the physics of the computer on which you are reading it.

Barry thanks for refuting this for me that channel I linked is just full of atheist junk and propaganda. Im just starting to understand the the complex arrangement of DNA now that it contains 2 languages simultaneously but any way heres a cool article I found on Creation Evolution Headlines! crev.info/2013/12/engineering-designs-found-throughout-the-biosphere/ and recently I've been studying the complex machines involved in photosynthesis! Heres a article I found on that! http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/09/130918130207.htm and http://crev.info/2013/09/reverse-engineer-living-solutions/ Jaceli123
Sorry for the question marks at the end that was a accident. Jaceli123
Thanks bornagain Im sorry I made a bad impression on myself and I hope I didn't piss anybody off. You guys gave really helped me in my Journey. It's hard to refute something you believed as fact for a little while but now Im finally seeing the holes in darwinism and materialism. Guys I hope I can join your intellectual discussion and learn as much as I can and again thanks I really appreciate it!!!!!!!!!!!!???? Jaceli123
Jaceli123, to get a feel for where the 'hard' science really stands today, and for the philosophy behind the arguments of Darwinists, you may appreciate this recent interview Eric Metaxus did with Stephen Meyer. "Darwin's Doubt" Eric Metaxas interview with Stephen Meyer - video https://vimeo.com/81215936 Also of note; For a more in depth overview of the 'hard' science behind ID, I recommend this 13 part video series, by Dr. Paul Giem, on Dr. Meyer's book Darwin's Doubt. Darwin's Doubt (Part 1) 9-28-2013 by Paul Giem - video playlist https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wB4GKzmWCA&list=SPHDSWJBW3DNUaMy2xdaup5ROw3u0_mK8t bornagain77
@Bornagain77 and others I apologize I would never lie it's against the religion I follow christianity. I used to believe in the new age, reincarnation,self-ones and evolution came along with that too. After being in that path I quickly noticed the entire religion made no since people selling books for money and scammers. Evolution was always in the conversation. It showed how nature was coming to a higher being like gods. So I accepted evolution and was a new ager. Before I became like that I was christian a dedicated one! Then when I started thinking and then evolution came into the picture it all broke down. I asked my dad about the theory of evolution he said you just need to accept it because it's fact. He said thats maybe how God created us I couldn't accept that. I had to keep looking. This process happened the entire summer. Instead of hanging out with friends I was looking for the answers to life's biggest questions. Then I had found William Craig it had helped me then I found discovery institute, creation ministries and lectures online about christianity and evolution. It was great I was finally opened to something that I didn't know. Then at about the end of the summer I found this site. A 24hour debate that never ends full of questions and information. I still struggle day to day with this subject in mind. I have tons of questions and find new ones every day like the tails on people who can Move them. To transitional fossil records. Trust me Im a high-school student not a darwinist. Sorry about the tail thing It just freaked me out when I saw that people could actually move them. Anyway again Im sorry again I hope you take the time to read my story and I hope you can anwser my questions. Jaceli123
Jaceli123, I've noticed that you have displayed a tendency, twice now, first with the fossil record and now in this post with the biological information issue you initially raised, to ignore direct refutations of core issues that you yourself have brought up, and to acknowledge that your point was refuted, and for you to instead focus on, as with this monkey tail bit, what can be rightly called 'tabloid pseudo-science'. You claimed to be a high school student merely asking questions, but from your lack of honestly engaging the refutation of issues that you yourself have brought up, I very much doubt the sincerity of your inquiry.,,, Perhaps I'm too skeptical with you, and you really are honestly seeking answers to your questions (but you just forgot to thank the people for correcting you on your misconceptions), if I am wrong, and you are just rude, I am sorry, but I have been lied to so many times by Darwinists, I really question your sincerity in all this. bornagain77
Hey I found this funny picture while searching vestigial organs and babies born with tails! http://maxmagnusnorman.com/artist_blog/art_day_177.shtml Its a baby with a monkey tail! Jaceli123
Please note, DNA repair machines ‘Fixing every pothole in America before the next rush hour’ is analogous to the traveling salesman problem. The traveling salesman problem is a NP-hard (read: very hard) problem in computer science; The problem involves finding the shortest possible route between cities, visiting each city only once. ‘Traveling salesman problems’ are notorious for keeping supercomputers busy for days.
Bees Beat Machines At 'Traveling Salesman' Problem - 2010 "Such a problem is NP-Hard and keeps our best machines thinking for days searching for a solution",,, NP-hard problem - Examples http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NP-hard#Examples
Yet quantum computation would specifically provide a solution to exactly this type of traveling salesman problem that is seen in the 'fixing every pothole in America' DNA repair problem:
Speed Test of Quantum Versus Conventional Computing: Quantum Computer Wins - May 8, 2013 Excerpt: quantum computing is, "in some cases, really, really fast." McGeoch says the calculations the D-Wave excels at involve a specific combinatorial optimization problem, comparable in difficulty to the more famous "travelling salesperson" problem that's been a foundation of theoretical computing for decades.,,, "This type of computer is not intended for surfing the internet, but it does solve this narrow but important type of problem really, really fast," McGeoch says. "There are degrees of what it can do. If you want it to solve the exact problem it's built to solve, at the problem sizes I tested, it's thousands of times faster than anything I'm aware of. If you want it to solve more general problems of that size, I would say it competes -- it does as well as some of the best things I've looked at. At this point it's merely above average but shows a promising scaling trajectory." http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/05/130508122828.htm
Since it is obvious that there is not a material CPU (central processing unit) in the DNA, or cell, busily computing answers to this monster logistic problem, in a purely ‘material’ fashion, by crunching bits, then it is readily apparent that this monster ‘traveling salesman problem’, for DNA repair, is somehow being computed by quantum computation within the cell and/or within DNA. ,,,here is supporting evidence that quantum information is in fact ‘conserved’, i.e. 'cannot be created nor destroyed' by any known material means;,,,
Quantum no-hiding theorem experimentally confirmed for first time - March 2011 Excerpt: In the classical world, information can be copied and deleted at will. In the quantum world, however, the conservation of quantum information means that information cannot be created nor destroyed. http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-03-quantum-no-hiding-theorem-experimentally.html Quantum no-deleting theorem Excerpt: A stronger version of the no-cloning theorem and the no-deleting theorem provide permanence to quantum information. To create a copy one must import the information from some part of the universe and to delete a state one needs to export it to another part of the universe where it will continue to exist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_no-deleting_theorem#Consequence
The implications of finding 'non-local', beyond space and time, quantum information in molecular biology on a massive scale are fairly obvious. The 'fairly obvious' implications are discussed in the following video by Stuart Hameroff:
Does Quantum Biology Support A Quantum Soul? – Stuart Hameroff - video (notes in description) http://vimeo.com/29895068
Of supplemental note: The entire human body, every molecule and chemical reaction of it, is 'theoretically' reducible to 'non-local', beyond space and time, quantum information:
Quantum Teleportation of a Human? - video https://vimeo.com/75163272
Verse and Music:
Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. ThePianoGuys - O Come, Emmanuel - (Piano/Cello) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iO7ySn-Swwc
As to the question,
'is DNA simply just chemical reactions between DNA and RNA, does it really contain information or is it just the result of a chemical potential?
Although, as Mr. Arrington has noted from leading Darwinists themselves no less, the 'classical' information in DNA 'really' is information, and moreover, it 'really' is information that is of a far more sophisticated level of information than anything man has ever programmed in his most advanced computers (multiple overlapping coding), there is another higher level of information in DNA that needs to be highlighted. This 'other higher level' of information in DNA is Quantum Information. Moreover, this other higher level of quantum information in DNA produces its own physical effect in biology. An effect that is set quite apart from the mere 'chemical reactions' of biology. In fact, this quantum information is said to 'hold DNA together'. Before I get to that evidence, it is first important to note that Quantum Entanglement is equivalent to a 'Quantum Information Channel':
Quantum Entanglement and Information Quantum entanglement is a physical resource, like energy, associated with the peculiar nonclassical correlations that are possible between separated quantum systems. Entanglement can be measured, transformed, and purified. A pair of quantum systems in an entangled state can be used as a quantum information channel to perform computational and cryptographic tasks that are impossible for classical systems. The general study of the information-processing capabilities of quantum systems is the subject of quantum information theory. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-entangle/
It is also important to note that classical information is found to be a subset of quantum information/entanglement:
Quantum knowledge cools computers: New understanding of entropy – June 2011 Excerpt: No heat, even a cooling effect; In the case of perfect classical knowledge of a computer memory (zero entropy), deletion of the data requires in theory no energy at all. The researchers prove that “more than complete knowledge” from quantum entanglement with the memory (negative entropy) leads to deletion of the data being accompanied by removal of heat from the computer and its release as usable energy. This is the physical meaning of negative entropy. Renner emphasizes, however, “This doesn’t mean that we can develop a perpetual motion machine.” The data can only be deleted once, so there is no possibility to continue to generate energy. The process also destroys the entanglement, and it would take an input of energy to reset the system to its starting state. The equations are consistent with what’s known as the second law of thermodynamics: the idea that the entropy of the universe can never decrease. Vedral says “We’re working on the edge of the second law. If you go any further, you will break it.” http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110601134300.htm
Here is the empirical evidence that Quantum Entanglement/Information is, in fact, in DNA:
Quantum Information/Entanglement In DNA - Elisabeth Rieper - short video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5936605/ Quantum Entanglement Holds DNA Together, Say Physicists - June 28, 2010 Excerpt: quantum biology has emerged as one of the most exciting new fields in science. It’s beginning to look as if quantum effects are crucial in a number of biological processes, such as photosynthesis and avian navigation,,. Now a group of physicists say that the weird laws of quantum mechanics may be more important for life than biologists could ever have imagined. Their new idea is that DNA is held together by quantum entanglement. http://www.technologyreview.com/view/419590/quantum-entanglement-holds-dna-together-say-physicists/ DNA Can Discern Between Two Quantum States, Research Shows - June 2011 Excerpt: -- DNA -- can discern between quantum states known as spin. - The researchers fabricated self-assembling, single layers of DNA attached to a gold substrate. They then exposed the DNA to mixed groups of electrons with both directions of spin. Indeed, the team's results surpassed expectations: The biological molecules reacted strongly with the electrons carrying one of those spins, and hardly at all with the others. The longer the molecule, the more efficient it was at choosing electrons with the desired spin, while single strands and damaged bits of DNA did not exhibit this property. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/03/110331104014.htm Does DNA Have Telepathic Properties?-A Galaxy Insight - 2009 Excerpt: DNA has been found to have a bizarre ability to put itself together, even at a distance, when according to known science it shouldn't be able to.,,, The recognition of similar sequences in DNA’s chemical subunits, occurs in a way unrecognized by science. There is no known reason why the DNA is able to combine the way it does, and from a current theoretical standpoint this feat should be chemically impossible. http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2009/04/does-dna-have-t.html
It turns out that quantum information has been confirmed to be in protein structures as well;
Coherent Intrachain energy migration at room temperature - Elisabetta Collini and Gregory Scholes - University of Toronto - Science, 323, (2009), pp. 369-73 Excerpt: The authors conducted an experiment to observe quantum coherence dynamics in relation to energy transfer. The experiment, conducted at room temperature, examined chain conformations, such as those found in the proteins of living cells. Neighbouring molecules along the backbone of a protein chain were seen to have coherent energy transfer. Where this happens quantum decoherence (the underlying tendency to loss of coherence due to interaction with the environment) is able to be resisted, and the evolution of the system remains entangled as a single quantum state. http://www.scimednet.org/quantum-coherence-living-cells-and-protein/
In fact, it is speculated that the Quantum Entanglement/Information within DNA is involved in 'Quantum Computation'
Is DNA a quantum computer? Stuart Hameroff Excerpt: DNA could function as a quantum computers with superpositions of base pair dipoles acting as qubits. Entanglement among the qubits, necessary in quantum computation is accounted for through quantum coherence in the pi stack where the quantum information is shared,,, http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/dnaquantumcomputer1.htm
And this 'Quantum Computation' is heavily implicated to be involved in DNA repair so as to provide an adequate explanation as to how the following is even possible:
Quantum Dots Spotlight DNA-Repair Proteins in Motion - March 2010 Excerpt: "How this system works is an important unanswered question in this field," he said. "It has to be able to identify very small mistakes in a 3-dimensional morass of gene strands. It's akin to spotting potholes on every street all over the country and getting them fixed before the next rush hour." Dr. Bennett Van Houten - of note: A bacterium has about 40 team members on its pothole crew. That allows its entire genome to be scanned for errors in 20 minutes, the typical doubling time.,, These smart machines can apparently also interact with other damage control teams if they cannot fix the problem on the spot. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100311123522.htm
Assume a can opener.
I like it, and to paraphrase Darwin, "Assume a living cell." Piltdown2
There is an old joke about a group of men who are shipwrecked on a desert island and discover a large crate filled with food in cans. I forget what the first 2 guys propose for getting at the food, but the punchline is from the 3rd guy, who is an Economist. He says, "Assume a can opener." In the same vein, there is a bit of Wisdom that goes: For every problem there is a solution that is cheap, simple, and wrong. I regularly attend meetings with people who "assume can openers" and are willing to see how far they can get with "cheap, simple, and wrong" before the budget runs out. But I assumed that actual Scientists were interested in getting the technical details straight before they proposed an answer. I guess there's just too much money to be made selling perpetual motion machines. mahuna
This reminds me of the C.S. Lewis book The Screwtape Letters, in which a senior demon named Wormwood is lecturing a lesser demon on how to break the faith of humans. Wormwood explains that above all else, the demon must impress upon humans the "ordiariness" of things because once they start investigating how complex life truly is, there is no way they will accept chance, random mutations, or natural selection as explanations. Consider this: nucleotides, the structural units of DNA, which bear the genetic code. Five histones are involved in DNA (histones are thought to be involved in governing the activity of genes). The chance of forming even the simplest of these histones is said to be one in 20^100—another huge number “larger than the total of all the atoms in all the stars and galaxies visible in the largest astronomical telescopes.” (Evolution From Space by Hoyle and Wickramasinghe, 1981, p. 27). Chemist Dickerson also made this interesting comment: “The evolution of the genetic machinery is the step for which there are no laboratory models; hence one can speculate endlessly, unfettered by inconvenient facts.” (Scientific American, September 1978, p. 73). But is it good scientific procedure to brush aside the avalanches of “inconvenient facts” so easily? Evolutionary theory attempts to eliminate the need for the impossible to be accomplished “in one blow” by espousing a step-by-step process by which natural selection could do its work gradually. However, without the genetic code to begin reproduction, there can be no material for natural selection to select. Barb
er, "I'm". William J Murray
I sensing an imminent jargon bluff! ("They don't mean the same thing by "information" that you mean.") William J Murray

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