In a comment to a previous post, Jaceli123 writes:
Now I have a question for you guys is DNA simply just chemical reactions between DNA and RNA, does it really contain information or is it just the result of a chemical potential? From this video: [link]
Curious, I followed the link and found this video that was posted on Youtube by someone who calls himself “bdw5000” on July 24, 2013. Someone put a lot of time and effort into this video and its animations, and it makes some, shall we say, interesting claims. Some excerpts:
0:53
The ancestral molecule to RNA just behaved in a certain way for chemical reasons.
1:09
It is the molecular structure that mattered. Specifically, what mattered the most was the ability of the ancestral molecule to make copies of itself.
1:25 This is the core of the claims made:
Life is not an information phenomenon, but a bio-chemical one. DNA in living things does not store information but bio-chemical potential subject to the laws of chemistry and physics and not the laws of information.
Well. I don’t know who bdw5000 is, but the claims he makes in his video do not stand up to even the slightest scrutiny. What is more, we don’t have to rely on ID proponents to debunk his nonsense. His claims fly in the face of statements made by leading Darwinists. Let’s see.
All of life depends on the accurate transmission of information.
Miroslav Radman and Robert Wagner, “The High Fidelity of DNA Duplication,” Scientific American 259 (August 1988): 42, 40-46.
[The information in a DNA cell] if written out would fill a thousand 600-page books.
Rick Gore, “The Awesome Worlds Within a Cell,” National Geographic (September 1976): 360, 354-95
And at this point, strangely enough, the discovery of DNA, which is so widely thought to prove that life is mere chemistry, provides the missing link for proving the contrary. That the formation of a DNA molecule is embodied in the morphology of the corresponding offspring, assures us of the fact that this morphology is not the product of a chemical equilibration, but is designed by other than chemical forces.
Michael Polanyi, “Life Transcending Physics and Chemistry,” Chemical and Engineering News 45 (August 1967): 66, 55-66
Information theory can be applied to any situation involving messages. It follows therefore that the language of life, the genetic code written along the lengths of DNA molecules, in groups of three coding for the various twenty-two amino acids of proteins, can also be expressed in terms of a given amount of information.
Edmund Jack Ambrose, The Nature and Origin of the Biological World (New York: Halsted Press, 1982), 125.
However, the origin of life—or, to be more precise, the origin of the first replicator systems and the origin of translation-remains a huge enigma, and progress in solving these problems has been very modest — in the case of translation, nearly negligible. Some potentially fruitful observations and ideas exist, such as the discovery of plausible hatcheries for life, the networks of inorganic compartments at hydrothermal vents, and the chemical versatility of ribozymes that fuels the RNA World hypothesis. However, these advances remain only preliminaries, even if important ones, because they do not even come close to a coherent scenario for prebiological evolution, from the first organic molecules to the first replicator systems, and from these to bona fide biological entities in which information storage and function are partitioned between distinct classes of molecules (nucleic acids and proteins, respectively).
Koonin, Eugene V. (2012). The Logic of Chance: The Nature and Origin of Biological Evolution, Pearson Education, Inc., Publishing as FT Press Science, New Jersey, page 417.
Even the United States Supreme Court has weighed in on the issue.
Genes form the basis for hereditary traits in living organisms. See generally Association for Molecular Pathology v. United States Patent and Trademark Office, 702 F. Supp. 2d 181, 192-211 (SDNY 2010). The human genome consists of approximately 22,000 genes packed into 23 pairs of chromosomes. Each gene is encoded as DNA, which takes the shape of the familiar “double helix” that Doctors James Watson and Francis Crick first described in 1953. Each “cross-bar” in the DNA helix consists of two chemically joined nucleotides. The possible nucleotides are adenine (A), thymine (T), cytosine (C), and guanine (G), each of which binds naturally with another nucleotide: A pairs with T; C pairs with G. The nucleotide cross-bars are chemically connected to a sugar-phosphate backbone that forms the outside framework of the DNA helix. Sequences of DNA nucleotides contain the information necessary to create strings of amino acids, which in turn are used in the body to build proteins. Only some DNA nucleotides, however, code for amino acids; these nucleotides are known as “exons.” Nucleotides that do not code for amino acids, in contrast, are known as “introns.”
Ass’n for Molecular Pathology v. Myriad Genetics, Inc., 133 S. Ct. 2107, 2111 (2013)
Summary, saying that the information in DNA is merely an byproduct of the chemistry of the cell is like saying the information this sentence is merely a byproduct of the physics of the computer on which you are reading it.
I sensing an imminent jargon bluff! (“They don’t mean the same thing by “information” that you mean.”)
er, “I’m”.
This reminds me of the C.S. Lewis book The Screwtape Letters, in which a senior demon named Wormwood is lecturing a lesser demon on how to break the faith of humans. Wormwood explains that above all else, the demon must impress upon humans the “ordiariness” of things because once they start investigating how complex life truly is, there is no way they will accept chance, random mutations, or natural selection as explanations.
Consider this: nucleotides, the structural units of DNA, which bear the genetic code. Five histones are involved in DNA (histones are thought to be involved in governing the activity of genes). The chance of forming even the simplest of these histones is said to be one in 20^100—another huge number “larger than the total of all the atoms in all the stars and galaxies visible in the largest astronomical telescopes.” (Evolution From Space by Hoyle and Wickramasinghe, 1981, p. 27).
Chemist Dickerson also made this interesting comment: “The evolution of the genetic machinery is the step for which there are no laboratory models; hence one can speculate endlessly, unfettered by inconvenient facts.” (Scientific American, September 1978, p. 73).
But is it good scientific procedure to brush aside the avalanches of “inconvenient facts” so easily?
Evolutionary theory attempts to eliminate the need for the impossible to be accomplished “in one blow” by espousing a step-by-step process by which natural selection could do its work gradually. However, without the genetic code to begin reproduction, there can be no material for natural selection to select.
There is an old joke about a group of men who are shipwrecked on a desert island and discover a large crate filled with food in cans. I forget what the first 2 guys propose for getting at the food, but the punchline is from the 3rd guy, who is an Economist.
He says, “Assume a can opener.”
In the same vein, there is a bit of Wisdom that goes: For every problem there is a solution that is cheap, simple, and wrong.
I regularly attend meetings with people who “assume can openers” and are willing to see how far they can get with “cheap, simple, and wrong” before the budget runs out.
But I assumed that actual Scientists were interested in getting the technical details straight before they proposed an answer. I guess there’s just too much money to be made selling perpetual motion machines.
I like it, and to paraphrase Darwin, “Assume a living cell.”
As to the question,
Although, as Mr. Arrington has noted from leading Darwinists themselves no less, the ‘classical’ information in DNA ‘really’ is information, and moreover, it ‘really’ is information that is of a far more sophisticated level of information than anything man has ever programmed in his most advanced computers (multiple overlapping coding), there is another higher level of information in DNA that needs to be highlighted. This ‘other higher level’ of information in DNA is Quantum Information. Moreover, this other higher level of quantum information in DNA produces its own physical effect in biology. An effect that is set quite apart from the mere ‘chemical reactions’ of biology. In fact, this quantum information is said to ‘hold DNA together’. Before I get to that evidence, it is first important to note that Quantum Entanglement is equivalent to a ‘Quantum Information Channel’:
It is also important to note that classical information is found to be a subset of quantum information/entanglement:
Here is the empirical evidence that Quantum Entanglement/Information is, in fact, in DNA:
It turns out that quantum information has been confirmed to be in protein structures as well;
In fact, it is speculated that the Quantum Entanglement/Information within DNA is involved in ‘Quantum Computation’
And this ‘Quantum Computation’ is heavily implicated to be involved in DNA repair so as to provide an adequate explanation as to how the following is even possible:
Please note, DNA repair machines ‘Fixing every pothole in America before the next rush hour’ is analogous to the traveling salesman problem. The traveling salesman problem is a NP-hard (read: very hard) problem in computer science; The problem involves finding the shortest possible route between cities, visiting each city only once. ‘Traveling salesman problems’ are notorious for keeping supercomputers busy for days.
Yet quantum computation would specifically provide a solution to exactly this type of traveling salesman problem that is seen in the ‘fixing every pothole in America’ DNA repair problem:
Since it is obvious that there is not a material CPU (central processing unit) in the DNA, or cell, busily computing answers to this monster logistic problem, in a purely ‘material’ fashion, by crunching bits, then it is readily apparent that this monster ‘traveling salesman problem’, for DNA repair, is somehow being computed by quantum computation within the cell and/or within DNA.
,,,here is supporting evidence that quantum information is in fact ‘conserved’, i.e. ‘cannot be created nor destroyed’ by any known material means;,,,
The implications of finding ‘non-local’, beyond space and time, quantum information in molecular biology on a massive scale are fairly obvious. The ‘fairly obvious’ implications are discussed in the following video by Stuart Hameroff:
Of supplemental note: The entire human body, every molecule and chemical reaction of it, is ‘theoretically’ reducible to ‘non-local’, beyond space and time, quantum information:
Verse and Music:
Hey I found this funny picture while searching vestigial organs and babies born with tails! http://maxmagnusnorman.com/art....._177.shtml
Its a baby with a monkey tail!
Jaceli123, I’ve noticed that you have displayed a tendency, twice now, first with the fossil record and now in this post with the biological information issue you initially raised, to ignore direct refutations of core issues that you yourself have brought up, and to acknowledge that your point was refuted, and for you to instead focus on, as with this monkey tail bit, what can be rightly called ‘tabloid pseudo-science’. You claimed to be a high school student merely asking questions, but from your lack of honestly engaging the refutation of issues that you yourself have brought up, I very much doubt the sincerity of your inquiry.,,, Perhaps I’m too skeptical with you, and you really are honestly seeking answers to your questions (but you just forgot to thank the people for correcting you on your misconceptions), if I am wrong, and you are just rude, I am sorry, but I have been lied to so many times by Darwinists, I really question your sincerity in all this.
@Bornagain77 and others I apologize I would never lie it’s against the religion I follow christianity. I used to believe in the new age, reincarnation,self-ones and evolution came along with that too. After being in that path I quickly noticed the entire religion made no since people selling books for money and scammers. Evolution was always in the conversation. It showed how nature was coming to a higher being like gods. So I accepted evolution and was a new ager. Before I became like that I was christian a dedicated one! Then when I started thinking and then evolution came into the picture it all broke down. I asked my dad about the theory of evolution he said you just need to accept it because it’s fact. He said thats maybe how God created us I couldn’t accept that. I had to keep looking. This process happened the entire summer. Instead of hanging out with friends I was looking for the answers to life’s biggest questions. Then I had found William Craig it had helped me then I found discovery institute, creation ministries and lectures online about christianity and evolution. It was great I was finally opened to something that I didn’t know. Then at about the end of the summer I found this site. A 24hour debate that never ends full of questions and information. I still struggle day to day with this subject in mind. I have tons of questions and find new ones every day like the tails on people who can
Move them. To transitional fossil records. Trust me Im a high-school student not a darwinist. Sorry about the tail thing It just freaked me out when I saw that people could actually move them. Anyway again Im sorry again I hope you take the time to read my story and I hope you can anwser my questions.
Jaceli123, to get a feel for where the ‘hard’ science really stands today, and for the philosophy behind the arguments of Darwinists, you may appreciate this recent interview Eric Metaxus did with Stephen Meyer.
“Darwin’s Doubt” Eric Metaxas interview with Stephen Meyer – video
https://vimeo.com/81215936
Also of note;
For a more in depth overview of the ‘hard’ science behind ID, I recommend this 13 part video series, by Dr. Paul Giem, on Dr. Meyer’s book Darwin’s Doubt.
Darwin’s Doubt (Part 1) 9-28-2013 by Paul Giem – video playlist
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wB4GKzmWCA&list=SPHDSWJBW3DNUaMy2xdaup5ROw3u0_mK8t
Thanks bornagain Im sorry I made a bad impression on myself and I hope I didn’t piss anybody off. You guys gave really helped me in my
Journey. It’s hard to refute something you believed as fact for a little while but now Im finally seeing the holes in darwinism and materialism. Guys I hope I can join your intellectual discussion and learn as much as I can and again thanks I really appreciate it!!!!!!!!!!!!????
Sorry for the question marks at the end that was a accident.
Barry thanks for refuting this for me that channel I linked is just full of atheist junk and propaganda. Im just starting to understand the the complex arrangement of DNA now that it contains 2 languages simultaneously but any way heres a cool article I found on Creation Evolution Headlines! crev.info/2013/12/engineering-designs-found-throughout-the-biosphere/ and recently I’ve been studying the complex machines involved in photosynthesis! Heres a article I found on that! http://www.sciencedaily.com/re.....130207.htm and
http://crev.info/2013/09/rever.....solutions/