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Darwinists Check Their Logic at the Door

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In my last post I commented on Nobel Prize winning physicist Eugene Wigner’s article “The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural Sciences,” in which Wigner describes as “miraculous” (1) that “laws” of nature exist; and (2) that we should be able to discover those laws.

 In this post I will use an exchange in the comment section of that post between ID proponent “StephenB” and Darwinist “Delurker” to illustrate the utter vacuity of Darwinist argumentation, or at least the vacuity of the arguments of this particular Darwinist.  It is not my purpose to pick on Delurker per se.  I am using his arguments, because they are quite representative of the type of arguments Darwinists make on this site. 

 Exchange 1: 

 StephenB:  “You seem to be taking an awful lot for granted.  How did nature become comprehensible?”

 Delurker:  “That is not a question that is addressed by modern evolutionary theory.  To the extent that nature is comprehensible, modern evolutionary theory predicts that alignment with reality will be selected for.”

 Comment

 Delurker’s response starts with a factual misrepresentation and ends with an argument that is at the same time both self-contradictory and circular. 

 First the factual misrepresentation.  The existence of human cognitive ability (i.e., the ability to comprehend nature) is obvious.  Darwinism purports to be a comprehensive explanation of the development of all characters of all organisms.  In other words, according to the theory, if an organism has a particular character, whether the character is an eye, a fin or the ability to think, that character must have developed through Darwinian processes.  Delurker’s assertion that Darwinism does not attempt to address the question of how human’s cognitive abilities developed is spectacularly false.  It is like saying rocket scientists do not study propellant.  Indeed, there is an entire sub-field of Darwinian endeavor devoted to the study of cognition and how it might of developed, and fame, fortune and a Noble Prize awaits the first researcher who develops a half-way plausible theory. 

 Now to the argument, such as it is.  The argument is self-contradictory, because after denying that Darwinism addresses the origin of cognitive ability, Delurker then asserts that cognitive ability developed through natural selection.

 The argument is circular as well:  StephenB asks “How did the character “cognitive ability” develop in humans?  Delurker responds:  “It was selected for by natural selection.”  Delurker means that the character exists because organisms that had the character were “more fit” than those that did not.  How do we know the organisms with the character were more fit?  Because the character in question exists in them.  Which, of course, brings back to the starting place.

 Exchange 2:

 StephenB:  “How did the mind develop the capacity to comprehend it [i.e., reality]?”

 Delurker:  “That’s an interesting question.  Biologists investigating the evolution of the human brain are attempting to answer it.  Thus far the answer appears to be “incrementally.”

 Comment

 Delurker has now completely abandoned his first outlandish assertion that biologists do not attempt to account for the development of human cognitive ability.  I suppose he hoped no one would notice.  Now he responds to a serious question with a dismissive triviality. 

Does Delurker truly expect anyone to be convinced by a one-word explanation of perhaps the most important question in all of science?  Give me a break.

 Exchange 3:

 StephenB:  “How and why did the two realms get coordinated such that each makes sense with the other?”

 Delurker:  “No need to coordinate.  Reality exists.  Organisms who don’t deal with reality die (eventually).”

 Comment

 Here Delurker resorts to the old debating technique of “equivocation,” or, more commonly, “the old switch-a-roo.” 

 Keep your eye on the ball.  The ball is:  “the development of human cognitive ability” which has led to the development of mathematical theories with an amazing correspondence to physical reality.

StephenB asks how Darwinism could possibly account for that character.  Delurker says “organisms that don’t deal with reality die off.”  Again, give me a break.  Of the countless millions of species that have existed, only one has developed the character in question.  Delurker is as much as saying, “any organism that does not develop the ability to do higher math will become extinct.”  His answer would be humorous if it were not so pathetic.

 Exchange 4:

 StephenB:  “How did two realms arise in the first place?”

 Delurker:  “The nature of reality is not addressed by modern evolutionary theory.  The fitness of organisms to that reality is.”

 Comment

 Again, Delurker tells a blatant falsehood.  Every Darwinist will tell you that materialism is assumed in his research, either flatly or methodologically.  Delurker is either staggeringly ignorant of this fact or simply fabricating facts to suit his argument.

 Exchange 5:

 StephenB:  “Why should there even be two realms?”

 Delurker:  “You’re letting your terminology run away with you.  There is physical reality and there are mechanisms that allow populations of organisms to become more fit with respect to that physical reality.”

 Comment

 StephenB asks a profound question.  Given materialist premises, how can a Darwinist say there is a realm of mind that apprehends material reality that is separate from the material reality being apprehended?

 Delurker does not even attempt to answer this question.  Instead, he accuses StephenB of being confused.

 Exchange 6:

 StephenB:  “Indeed, which Darwinist even accepts the existence of two realms, one of which constitutes the immaterial mind of the investigator?”

 Delurker:  “What evidence do you have that mind is immaterial?”

 Comment

 Again, faced with a question he cannot begin to answer, Delurker changes the subject.  There is a substantial body of research supporting the existence of the immaterial mind.  Much of that research is summarized in O’Leary and Beauregard’s “The Spiritual Brain.”  But notice that the evidence for the material mind is not the issue that StephenB raises.  StephenB raises the question of how a Darwinist can ever accept the existence of a mind.  Delurker’s response to that question is conspicuous in its absence. 

 Conclusion

 Some of the greatest arguments against Darwinism are the vacuous arguments its supporters make for it.

Comments
StephenB, news flash: The universe is not a paragraph, and scientists aren't really "reading" it. Metaphors get you only so far.Anthony09
September 7, 2009
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To MeganC (#56) when was it last incomprehensible? I was content to just lurk until I saw that. Now thats worth the price of admission.Graham
September 7, 2009
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---Delurker: "I’m not sure the question is coherent as stated." If I asked you how a written paragraph was formed in order that a reader could make sense out of it, would you find that question coherent? If so, then why is it not coherent to ask how a universe could be formed such that a scientist could read it? ---"This seems to boil down to a variant of the anthropic principle or fine tuning argument — and I suspect you’ll run into the same problems as defenders of those positions. For example, to my knowledge no one has been able to formulate them as testable, falsifiable hypotheses." Do you need a falsifiable hypothesis to recognize that the universe is ordered in such a way that the scientist can investigate it? You either think the universe is orderly, comprehensible, and investigatable or you don't. If you do, then you must have some idea about how the logic of its operations harmonizes perfectly with the logic of the human mind [brain, if you like] that comprehends it.StephenB
September 7, 2009
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Mark F At 37:
If you don’t like Ken Miller as an example – how Dinesh D’Souza?
Dinesh is definitely not a Darwinist. Still doesn't fit the bill.SpitfireIXA
September 7, 2009
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StephenB#57
I didn’t ask you what evolutionary biology says. I asked you what you say. Does your world not transcend evolutionary biology?
Some days it doesn't seem so. Good thing I like my job.
Surely, you can, at least, hazard a guess as to how the universe became comprehensible.
I'm not sure the question is coherent as stated. Would it even be possible for any form of life, or more generically any entity capable of comprehension, to arise in a universe that didn't have at least some regularities? Aren't those regularities therefore the definition of "comprehensible"? (I'm winging it here, those aren't rhetorical questions.) This seems to boil down to a variant of the anthropic principle or fine tuning argument -- and I suspect you'll run into the same problems as defenders of those positions. For example, to my knowledge no one has been able to formulate them as testable, falsifiable hypotheses.DeLurker
September 7, 2009
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Sversky, Re: #25 "My personal belief is that the reality we observe around us is best understood as a model constructed on the basis of sensory input. It is only a partial representation of what is out there because the senses we have evolved have a limited range and there are many aspects of reality we are unable to detect directly at all." This is interesting, because how then would one be able to be certain of any reality? How would one be able to logically conclude that there is no immaterial reality (for example)? If our minds (meat brains) evolved the capacity to understand and perceive reality only in a limited way, how could materialists by being materialists even know that evolution only provided for materialism? And in the same post, in the very next paragraph you state: "We have no compelling evidence for the existence of an immaterial mind. Quite the reverse, we have substantial evidence that damage to the physical brain can produce corresponding deficits in...." This seems to be somewhat of a contradiction to what you stated earlier. How could you know what is compelling or substantial and what is not, if your ability to perceive is incomplete, limited and partial?CannuckianYankee
September 7, 2009
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---Delurker: "I have answered this in the context of the original conversation, clearly pointing out that it is not within the scope of modern evolutionary theory." I didn't ask you what evolutionary biology says. I asked you what you say. Does your world not transcend evolutionary biology? Surely, you can, at least, hazard a guess as to how the universe became comprehensible. ---"If you don’t understand this, then you need to educate yourself more before pontificating on this topic." When did I pontificate? I simply asked a question. Since it is my question, I am the best position to know what kind of education is needed to answer it. ---"If you do understand this, the question represents an attempt to distract from ID applied to biology. Which is it?" How can I distract from my own question, which is only peripherally related to biology, if at all.StephenB
September 7, 2009
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StephenB, "The question on the table is this: How did the universe become comprehensible?" I forget; when was it last incomprehensible?MeganC
September 7, 2009
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StephenB#54
It is no more uncivil to call attention to evasionary tactics than it is to evade.
You continue to make baseless accusations. Clearly you are not interested in civil, rational conversation. How do you think that reflects on you, as a proponent of ID?
The question on the table is this: How did the universe become comprehensible?
I have answered this in the context of the original conversation, clearly pointing out that it is not within the scope of modern evolutionary theory. If you don't understand this, then you need to educate yourself more before pontificating on this topic. If you do understand this, the question represents an attempt to distract from ID applied to biology. Which is it?DeLurker
September 7, 2009
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---Delurker: "Are you interested in an actual civil conversation?" It is no more uncivil to call attention to evasionary tactics than it is to evade. The question on the table is this: How did the universe become comprehensible?StephenB
September 7, 2009
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---Delurker: "Your original question was: ---"Indeed, which Darwinist even accepts the existence of two realms, one of which constitutes the immaterial mind of the investigator" That was a separate question. The original question was phrased this way, WORD FOR WORD: "How did nature become comprehensible?" That is the question that you are evading. Please stop stalling.StephenB
September 7, 2009
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StephenB#51 If you are going to accuse someone of evasion, you should clearly point out exactly what you base your accusation on. I have answered you directly in every instance and I do not appreciate the aspersions you are casting. Are you interested in an actual civil conversation?DeLurker
September 7, 2009
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---Delurker: "I trust I have explained my position with respect to my discussion with StephenB and cleared up any confusion on Barry’s part. I do hope that further discussion can take place without the misattibutions and accusations of dishonesty that are all too often part of these debates." You can take up the problem of misattribution with whomever you think would be appropriate. For my part, I am more concerned with your evasions. In any case, if you would provide honest answers to honest questions, you would be far less vulnerable to such charges. Evasion is little more than dishonesty that fears to assert itself.StephenB
September 7, 2009
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StephenB#49
—Delurker: “That is not a question that anyone can answer because it assumes the existence of something not proven to exist, namely an “immaterial mind.” No, it does not.
Your original question was:
Indeed, which Darwinist even accepts the existence of two realms, one of which constitutes the immaterial mind of the investigator
That presumes the existence of an immaterial mind. If you want that question answered, you need to demonstrate that such a thing exists.
It is a very simple question. How did the universe become comprehensible.
That's a somewhat different question that doesn't presuppose an immaterial mind. I have already provided an answer in the context of our previous discussion: Modern evolutionary theory does not address those kinds of cosmological issues. However, given a comprehensible reality, the mechanisms of modern evolutionary theory will result in populations of organisms becoming better adapted to that reality.DeLurker
September 7, 2009
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---Delurker: "That is not a question that anyone can answer because it assumes the existence of something not proven to exist, namely an “immaterial mind.” No, it does not. It is a very simple question. How did the universe become comprehensible. Either you agree that it is comprehensible or you don't. If you think it is, I am asking you how it got that way. ---"Unless and until StephenB or yourself can provide any reproducible, empirical evidence whatsoever that the mind exists independent from the brain, the question he asked is quite literally meaningless." It isn't meaningless at all. Just as a written paragraph must be made comprehensible before a reader can comprehend it, a universe must be made comprehensible before a scientist can study it. You are evading the issue.StephenB
September 7, 2009
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Conclusion Barry began his post with:
It is not my purpose to pick on Delurker per se. I am using his arguments, because they are quite representative of the type of arguments Darwinists make on this site.
I'm actually flattered by this, since I find the arguments of the ID opponents here generally superior to those of the proponents in terms of logic and evidentiary support. I trust I have explained my position with respect to my discussion with StephenB and cleared up any confusion on Barry's part. I do hope that further discussion can take place without the misattibutions and accusations of dishonesty that are all too often part of these debates.DeLurker
September 7, 2009
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Exchange 6
StephenB: “Indeed, which Darwinist even accepts the existence of two realms, one of which constitutes the immaterial mind of the investigator?” Delurker: “What evidence do you have that mind is immaterial?” Comment Again, faced with a question he cannot begin to answer, Delurker changes the subject. There is a substantial body of research supporting the existence of the immaterial mind. Much of that research is summarized in O’Leary and Beauregard’s “The Spiritual Brain.” But notice that the evidence for the material mind is not the issue that StephenB raises. StephenB raises the question of how a Darwinist can ever accept the existence of a mind. Delurker’s response to that question is conspicuous in its absence.
That is not a question that anyone can answer because it assumes the existence of something not proven to exist, namely an "immaterial mind." Unless and until StephenB or yourself can provide any reproducible, empirical evidence whatsoever that the mind exists independent from the brain, the question he asked is quite literally meaningless. Further, the question is outside the remit of modern evolutionary theory. Finally, there are numerous biologists who are devout theists and who believe in an immaterial soul. Surely both you and he have heard of Ken Miller, Francis Collins, and Father George Coyne.DeLurker
September 7, 2009
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Exchange 5
StephenB: “Why should there even be two realms?” Delurker: “You’re letting your terminology run away with you. There is physical reality and there are mechanisms that allow populations of organisms to become more fit with respect to that physical reality.” Comment StephenB asks a profound question. Given materialist premises, how can a Darwinist say there is a realm of mind that apprehends material reality that is separate from the material reality being apprehended? Delurker does not even attempt to answer this question. Instead, he accuses StephenB of being confused.
Where did I ever claim that "there is a realm of mind that apprehends material reality that is separate from the material reality being apprehended?" You are projecting your dualism. My personal view is that "mind" or "consciousness" is an emergent property of our particularly complex brains. The patterns that make up that property are instantiated in "material reality", between our ears. I'm not sure how something non-material could even exist, let alone affect something material. To return to StephenB's question, my answer was in the context of modern evolutionary theory, which deals with populations of organisms adapting to physical reality. There is no reason to expect modern evolutionary theory to address the kinds of questions StephenB was asking with respect to it.DeLurker
September 7, 2009
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Exchange 4
StephenB: “How did two realms arise in the first place?” Delurker: “The nature of reality is not addressed by modern evolutionary theory. The fitness of organisms to that reality is.” Comment Again, Delurker tells a blatant falsehood. Every Darwinist will tell you that materialism is assumed in his research, either flatly or methodologically. Delurker is either staggeringly ignorant of this fact or simply fabricating facts to suit his argument.
You're rather free with the accusations of dishonesty. Again, that's not conducive to civil discourse. Please re-read StephenB's question. He asked how the two "realms", the physical world and human consciousness, arose initially. My response is perfectly direct and accurate. Modern evolutionary theory does not address that question. To your second point, methodological naturalism is part of the scientific method, but philosophical naturalism is not. That has no bearing on the fact that modern evolutionary theory does not address issues of cosmology.DeLurker
September 7, 2009
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Exchange 3
StephenB: “How and why did the two realms get coordinated such that each makes sense with the other?” Delurker: “No need to coordinate. Reality exists. Organisms who don’t deal with reality die (eventually).” Comment Here Delurker resorts to the old debating technique of “equivocation,” or, more commonly, “the old switch-a-roo.” Keep your eye on the ball. The ball is: “the development of human cognitive ability” which has led to the development of mathematical theories with an amazing correspondence to physical reality.
No, in this thread of the conversation the "ball" is StephenB's assumption that the two "realms" need to coordinate. That is neither self-evident nor part of modern evolutionary theory. Modern evolutionary theory explains how populations of organisms adapt to the (ever changing) real world. The nature of that objective, external reality is a matter for physicists, biologists research how populations of organisms adjust to it.
StephenB asks how Darwinism could possibly account for that character. Delurker says “organisms that don’t deal with reality die off.” Again, give me a break.
Failure to deal with reality as well as one's competitors, either intra- or extra-species, leads to lower reproductive rates. That's how modern evolutionary theory explains how populations of organisms become better at dealing with their environment. This is biology 101.
Of the countless millions of species that have existed, only one has developed the character in question.
If you are referring to "consciousness", you need to define your terms pretty carefully. It seems to describe a continuum rather than a binary condition. However, all species that currently exist have come from populations that were more fit to deal with (their current) reality than were their predecessors. Consciousness is just one possible adaptive trait among many.
Delurker is as much as saying, “any organism that does not develop the ability to do higher math will become extinct.” His answer would be humorous if it were not so pathetic.
If you read my words carefully and in context, I'm saying nothing more than that the ability to deal with reality makes an organism more likely to survive than organisms that do not deal with reality. That statement is true regardless of the trait under discussion. Indeed, it would be an argument against modern evolutionary theory if human consciousness were not aligned with reality.DeLurker
September 7, 2009
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Exchange 2
StephenB: “How did the mind develop the capacity to comprehend it [i.e., reality]?” Delurker: “That’s an interesting question. Biologists investigating the evolution of the human brain are attempting to answer it. Thus far the answer appears to be “incrementally.” Comment Delurker has now completely abandoned his first outlandish assertion that biologists do not attempt to account for the development of human cognitive ability.
I never made such an assertion, as noted in my response to Exchange 1. Reading the entire thread in context makes it clear that StephenB's first question was about cosmology, not biology. This question is clearly about biology.
I suppose he hoped no one would notice.
These kinds of veiled accusations of dishonesty have no place in civil discourse.
Now he responds to a serious question with a dismissive triviality.
Far from being trivial, my answer is the shortest summary I could come up with of the essence of modern evolutionary theory. All changes in populations are incremental.
Does Delurker truly expect anyone to be convinced by a one-word explanation of perhaps the most important question in all of science? Give me a break.
My answer was succinct, but recognizable as accurate by anyone with even an undergraduate understanding of modern evolutionary theory. Naturally there are many more details, and many peer reviewed journals that discuss this area of active research. That doesn't make my response incorrect.DeLurker
September 7, 2009
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Oh boy, my own thread at UD! And Mom said that playing piano in a cathouse[*] would never lead to anything. Given the length of Barry's post, I'll respond to each exchange separately. Exchange 1
StephenB: “You seem to be taking an awful lot for granted. How did nature become comprehensible?” Delurker: “That is not a question that is addressed by modern evolutionary theory. To the extent that nature is comprehensible, modern evolutionary theory predicts that alignment with reality will be selected for.” Comment Delurker’s response starts with a factual misrepresentation and ends with an argument that is at the same time both self-contradictory and circular. First the factual misrepresentation. The existence of human cognitive ability (i.e., the ability to comprehend nature) is obvious. Darwinism purports to be a comprehensive explanation of the development of all characters of all organisms.
You have misread my response. StephenB was asking about the nature of reality and the fact that, at some scales, it appears to follow certain regularities. That is a question of cosmology, not of biology.
The argument is self-contradictory, because after denying that Darwinism addresses the origin of cognitive ability, Delurker then asserts that cognitive ability developed through natural selection.
I never denied that cognitive ability arose through evolutionary mechanisms. This confusion is based on your previous misreading of the discussion. I said that the question of the apparent comprehensibility of reality is not within the scope of biology. The question of how populations of organisms might evolve to reflect the regularities inherent in reality is definitely within the scope of modern evolutionary theory. [*] Please don't tell her I'm actually writing software and doing mathematics -- she'd be so disappointed in me.DeLurker
September 7, 2009
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---Diffaxial: "I am vexed by this mystery in the same way that I am vexed by the walkability of nature." Not a strong response, and certainly not an answer. No problem. I understand that you do not answer questions.StephenB
September 7, 2009
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---Mark Frank: “I am happy to discuss to what extent the universe is comprehensible and how and why it is comprehensible to that extent” – but it would have been a real mouthful."" Rational arguments, if they are rational, can be summed up in a few words. The general and special theories of relativity can be outlined in a paragraph or two. ---"Anyhow – do you think it is entirely comprehensible?" I suspect that the answer is yes. If someone told us all of its secrets, I submit that we could comprehend all of it. We haven't discovered many of those secrets and may likely never will, but that is a separate question. What we do understand is a result of [A]nature's rationality, which makes it comprehensible, and [B]our rational minds, which comprehend it, which are two disctinct but related issues. So, I return to my question. How did the universe [nature if you like] become comprehensible [rational, if you like]?StephenB
September 7, 2009
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How did "cultural" activities of man escape evolutionary process?William J. Murray
September 7, 2009
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Diffaxial, If thought processes are constrained like bodily functions to physical realities, then that means God exists, or else humans would not believe in it. However, since we know that humans believe all sorts of contradictory things, we know thought processes are not - as your analogy erroneously indicates - necessarily hardwired to what is physically existent. Since we know evolution does not necessarily produce entities that make (or believe) true statements, once again we come to the question: why should we be able to comprehend nature at all?William J. Murray
September 7, 2009
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Re #31 If you don't like Ken Miller as an example - how Dinesh D'Souza? William Dembski bemoans the fact that he accepts the theory of evolution (or is there is a difference between this and Darwinism?) on a thread he started yesterday. But I think Dinesh would be very surprised to be described as any kind of materialist.Mark Frank
September 7, 2009
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O'Leary @ 28:
Interesting. When non-materialist neuroscientists try to explain why – based on evidence – they don’t accept the evolutionary biologist’s premises, the final, supposedly triumphant argument they hear is Steve Pinker’s “Our brains were shaped for fitness, not for truth. Sometimes the truth is adaptive, but sometimes it is not.” (Steven Pinker, How the Mind Works (New York: Norton, 1997), p. 305.) Many others have said the same. I wonder how many serious scientists would find that a basis for continued research?
I would expect that most would find it irrelevant. The scientific method has cultural, not evolutionary, origins, and has been progressively refined in such a way that, when it is working, our quite fallible cognitive biases may be subtracted from our conclusions. It does not follow from the fact that the evolved human ability to eyeball and throw projectiles is limited and imperfect that we cannot devise conceptual tools (such as mathematical physics) and technologies (rocket propulsion and guidance systems) capable of inserting spacecraft into Martian orbit. Similarly, it does not follow from the fact that the main features of human cognition originated due to local adaptive value, and are therefore limited and imperfect, that we cannot devise and perfect methods for maximizing the accuracy and usefulness of scientific conclusions to a similar degree of accuracy and usefulness.Diffaxial
September 7, 2009
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Lenoxus, Outside the mind of an observer, neither quality is known to exist. Also, I don't see any answer in your post other than "it just is".William J. Murray
September 7, 2009
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StephenB @ 21:
How do YOU explain the comprehensibility of nature?
I am vexed by this mystery in the same way that I am vexed by the walkability of nature. We observe an amazing correspondence between our ability to walk, and the walkability of nature. Although we can't walk everywhere, we can walk up and down hills, through valleys, up mountainsides, down wet roads and around walls of mysterious origins, even on the moon - many, many places. And, against all odds, every one of those locations and many more are walkable. Compounding my astonishment, many of these places display runability, and we can run! Why, we eat and digest many other organisms, and, against all odds, most display digestability! How did the correspondence between our ability to walk (run, digest) and the walkability (runability, digestability) of nature arise? What coordinated walking and walkability? And how can one explain the walkability of nature itself? A deep, deep mystery.Diffaxial
September 7, 2009
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