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David vun Kannon’s question on the rift between ID and Creationist communities

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The readers at Uncommon Descent are often a good source of feedback for the topics which interest them. To that end, I’d like to address a question asked by one of our readers, David vun Kannon, about the rift between ID and Creationist communities.

Here is the post where David asked his question: Bergman’s List, Post #4

David quoted me as saying:

there is still a bit of a rift between the Creationist communities and the ID communities

David then asked:

I saw a similar reference to a separation between ID and Christian faith groups on another of your recent posts. As a relative newcomer to following ID issues, I have to say I’m surprised to hear this. For the sake of the general public’s understanding of ID as a scientific enterprise, this should be openly discussed and better understood. Can you make a separate post on this topic?

There are many reasons for the rift, but let me highlight two individuals symbolic of the reasons why there is a rift.

On the Creationist side, here is one of the foremost Creationists arguing how origins should be discussed. Ken Ham of Answers in Genesis (the world’s leading YEC organization) said:

Don’t let Bible be let out of the conversation

Argue from the authority of the Bible

Don’t let young age of the Earth be conceded as that’s how you’ll lose the argument

The problem is world views

In contrast, the father of Intelligent Design, Phil Johnson (who is a professing Christian) said:

get the Bible out of the discussion

From this, one can see what the root of the rift is. To be fair there are Creationists like myself, johnnyb, Paul Nelson, Nancy Pearcy, David Coppedge, probably D. James Kennedy and others who are friendly to ID. In fact, I identify more with the ID community than the Creationist community.

However, some YECs actually consider me and those like me as second class Christians for our being so friendly to ID and our willingness to applaud those who accept an Old Earth. So, I would probably be placed in the ID camp more so than the creationist camp even though I accept the special creation of life and am sympathetic to a Young Earth as outlined on purely scientific grounds by Walter Brown, PhD, MIT in Creation Science.

Also, David Snoke a premier physicist and elder in my denomination wrote: A Biblical Case for an Old Earth. Within our denomination, the Presbyterian Church of America (PCA), there has been a group known as the Westminster Presbytery that feels Snoke and myself are heretics for our friendliness toward Old Earth. I myself have come around to think the Earth could be young, but I’m not dogmatic about it. But my moderate view would be considered too compromising by the Westminster Presbytery who probably, if they had their way with the rest of the denomination, would put Snoke and church officers who share my views on church trial. See the exchange:

Westminster Presbytery Condemns most of PCA as Heretical

Potomac Presbytery Responds to Charge of Heresy

I am part of the Potomac Presbytery as well as several members and supporters of IDEA at GMU (IDEA at GMU is a secular organization, and has members of all faiths, but I just thought I’d point it has several members who are in the Potomac Presbytery). The rift between the presbyteries is symbolic of the wider rifts happening elsewhere.

It is this theological and cultural rift that tends to separate some YECs from the rest of the world. There is so much more on this topic, but I thought that would at least set the stage.

Reciprocally, the ID community does not want YEC dogma invading the ID community. The ID community has agnostics and even atheists in their camp (like Frank Tipler). Furthermore the YEC community has such an unsavory reputation that the ID community is pressured to distance itself from it:

ID Coming Clean by Bill Dembski

Theists of all stripes are to be sure welcome. But the boundaries of intelligent design are not limited to theism. I personally have found an enthusiastic reception for my ideas not only among traditional theists like Jews, Christians, and Muslims, but also among pantheists, New-Agers, and agnostics who don’t hold their agnosticism dogmatically. Indeed, proponents of intelligent design are willing to sit across the table from anyone willing to have us.

That willingness, however, means that some of the people at the table with us will also be young earth creationists. Throughout my brief tenure as director of Baylor’s Michael Polanyi Center, adversaries as well as supporters of my work constantly pointed to my unsavory associates. I was treated like a political figure who is unwilling to renounce ties to organized crime. It was often put to me: “Dembski, you’ve done some respectable work, but look at the disreputable company you keep.” Repeatedly I’ve been asked to distance myself not only from the obstreperous likes of Phillip Johnson but especially from the even more scandalous young earth creationists.

I’m prepared to do neither. That said, let me stress that loyalty and friendship are not principally what’s keeping me from dumping my unsavory associates. Actually, I rather like having unsavory associates

Major ID proponents and sympathizers who accept an Old Earth are:

Michael Behe
David Berlinski (ID sympathizer)
Gerald Shroeder (who converted Antony Flew)
William Dembski
George Gilder
Guillermo Gonzalez
Jay Richards
Phil Johnson
Walter Bradley
Frank Tipler
Michael Denton (ID sympathizer)
John Barrow (ID sympathizer)
William Lane Craig
David Snoke
Henry “Fritz” Schaeffer
(the list goes on)

Technically, people like Walter Bradley would be called Progressive Creationists, and David Snoke a Day Age Creationist. They are still considered what AiG calls Old-Earth Compromisers (OECs). Thus AiG would not view them as true creationists. Furthermore, they would certainly have heartburn over the large number of non-Evangelicals and non-Christians within the ID community. But I point out, ID as a theory is a theology-free scientific hypothesis like thermodynamics is a theology-free scientific hypothesis. The questions it explores are very narrow.

Hopefully that highlights some of the reasons for the rift between Creationists (really YEC creationists) and the ID community.

Finally, ID is a theology-free theory much like any other scientific hypothesis (like thermodynamics). But ID is special, in that even though it is theology free, it has been called, The Bridge Between Science and Theology.

Comments
My $0.02: One of the things I learned long ago when evaluating claims of empirically unprovable ultimates is to assume the claim(s) to be true, contrasted by facts and reality. Additionally, I learned the importance of human perspective and that wisdom begins knowing how little we know. So, I assume God to be real and look to the scriptures for key descriptives to aid my perspective. God is eternal. What does eternal imply? Timeless. Can the human mind wrap around timelessness? I think not, for our entire existence is shaped by beginnings and endings - indeed, our languages reflect our perception of past, present, future. An eternal perspective by definition is not bound to the present, so God does not foresee the future, but exists in it. He does not remember the past, but exists in it. From where we sit (and all authors of scripture) such a thing is impossible to understand and any views imparted to us from that perspective are going to be translated into that which we relate. To illuminate this point, imagine a 2 dimensional being existing on a plane in our 3 dimensional reality, call him Harvey. During the course of Harvey's life, his view is constrained to width and length. Now one day along comes a 3-D investigator, who has a device which allows him to see Harvey's plane, despite it having no discernable thickness. He lights up the plane and sees Harvey, who is talking with a friend while walking to lunch one day, and pulls him out of his plane to examine him further. Harvey's friend is baffled - one minute they are talking, next minute both are bathed in a strange light and two roundish things appear around Harvey and he disappears. After examining Harvey this way and that the PI places him back where he found him and turns off his machine to make notes. Harvey's reappearance startles his friend, who wants to know where he went. Harvey, having no experience of height, he cannot describe what he say as he passed through many planes. Harvey saw his friend from another plane, but didn't realize it because he had never seen him from above. This is how we relate to an eternal perspective. When I read scripture, I keep this in mind. If the author is describing an event witnessed by others in time, I tend to favor the literal. When authors describe a future or past event as revealed by the eternal God, I tend to favor the figurative. Were any of the prophesies considering the Messiah literal? What did the literalists of the time, looking for a Messiah-King to overthrow Rome, do when Jesus showed up? I believe they sought to have him killed. I look at the Genesis myth (and I mean this in the Tolkein sense) knowing those events preceding human observation and imparted by God to the author are likely to suffer from the author's human perspective. Moses purportedly wrote much of the pentateuch in the tent of meeting, where he had fellowship with God and where, I presume, God showed him the creation. Suppose on the first day, God showed him the beginning void and spoke "Let there be light" and Moses 'saw' the begining of the cosmos. He wrote it down, went to sleep and God then showed him the next part on the second day and so on. This understanding is why I don't hold YEC as dogma in the way the AiG crowd does. However, it also means that our perception of OEC may also suffer from our limited views, so my eyes and mind remain open. Anyway, we all have a tendency to fancy our own understandings above others and if being right is more important that knowing the truth, such understanding is corrupted to dogmatism and learning ceases.todd
October 17, 2006
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Bevets:
I am a YEC and I am very happy with ID — as long as IDers remain silent on theology.
ID may need to be silent on theology, but IDers are humans first, and as such we will have an opinion, a voiced opinion, on theology. You may as well get used to it. BTW, I presume that you believe that you have the right to speak on the subject of theology; on what grounds would you suggest that IDers such as myself do not have that right? Is there some threshold of knowledge on the topic of theology that must be attained before one can address the issue? Or must one hold your particular theological perspective to gain the right to speak? I do think that in this statement you communicate clearly biggest issue IDers have with the YEC crowd. Its been appropriately labeled "holier than thou".bFast
October 17, 2006
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Sal, Do any of those books use or define the term "intelligent design"? What is the first use of that term as it is presently understood?David vun Kannon
October 17, 2006
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Allen MacNeil: Speaking as an interested outsider, it seems to me that the rise of ID within the “creationist” community indicates that the YEC position is on its last legs, at least insofar as it is held by people who have any understanding of science. But there are still mant scientists who are also YECs. Allen MacNeil: To me, Dembski and Behe’s theoretical work point directly to (indeed, are predicated upon) the operation of macroevolutionary processes operating in deep evolutionary time; they just hypothesize different mechanisms that do mainstream evolutionary biologists. Perhaps but we also know that just adding "deep evolutionary time" to variation is NOT scientific. Allen MacNeil: This therefore implies that if the ID position does indeed become the predominant one among people in the Abrahamic faith communities, it will spell the end once and for all of the YEC position and the end of Biblical literalism. That is a big if and also very doubtful. Ya see ID would be OK if YEC was shown to be indicative of reality. IOW ID is NOT a refutation of YEC. As for people conflating Creation and ID- that is their problem and just exposes their lack of integrity as well as their anti-intellectual agenda.Joseph
October 17, 2006
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"Unlike OEC or YEC, ID is not a theory of origins, or even a counter-theory to Darwinian Evolution. " On paper, this is true. But a quick browse of most threats and topics here reveals that many ID proponents dont see it that way - there is constant talk of 'darwinistic dogma' and attacks on evolution in general. For most ID proponents the scientific implications of the idea are secondry to its religious or philosophical implications - most notably, its potential use as a 'proof' of God's existance.SuricouRaven
October 17, 2006
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It seems to me that these problems occur because people don't appreciate the limited scope of ID theory. Unlike OEC or YEC, ID is not a theory of origins, or even a counter-theory to Darwinian Evolution. ID as I understand it, just gives us a scientific framework for hypothesizing and testing the presence of design in the world around us. One can be many things and a believer in ID at the same time. As sympathetic as I am to Biblical Creationism, it worries me sometimes that ID might be hijacked by well-meaning but over-zealous creationists.Rowan
October 17, 2006
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I am a YEC and I am very happy with ID -- as long as IDers remain silent on theology. My impression is that IDers are eager to make much out of little in order to distance themselves. I think this is unfortunate.bevets
October 17, 2006
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Just in case anyone is interested in reading my personal opinion! I guess I lead a somewhat schizophrenic existence when it comes to the ID/YEC/evolution debate. More simply I hold a dual ID-YEC perspective, which are completely separate. I am quite comfortable switching hats between the two depending on the situation. In the everyday secular environment I hold to the broad ID theory that doesn't stipulate the designer and I'm very insistent that purely 'science' and not the bible be used to prove that random blind chance can't account for diddly squat. People should be persuaded from a mathematical and scientific viewpoint and not a religious one that evolution is a crock of #$%@. There has to be separation of church and state and a biblical perspective cannot hold sway in a secular environment. In my personal capacity as a Christian I hold that the bible must hold ultimate truth and I view it through somewhat of a YEC perspective. Here I choose to go beyond where pure science halts and points to what faith reveals to be true i.e. the bible and that the designer is God in the Judeo-Christian fashion. I find this works quite well for me!lucID
October 17, 2006
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Richard Dawkins said, "Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist." So maybe it could be said that intelligent design makes it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled creationist. LOL Despite this "rift" between the ID and creationist communities, Judge Jones (Kitzmiller v. Dover) and many other Darwinists insist that ID and creationism are inseparable. Darwinists have even coined the term "intelligent design creationism." Also, someone called ID "creationism in a cheap tuxedo."Larry Fafarman
October 17, 2006
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Even though YECs have promoted ID arguments for a long time, the modern version (which de-emphasizes religion) emerged in the OEC and secular community. Three major works are considered the starting point of modern ID: 1. Mystery of Life's Origin (1984) by Thaxton, Bradley, Olsen (OECs) 2. Evolution a Theory in Crisis (1985) by Denton (agnostic) 3. The Anthropic Cosmological Principle (1987) by Barrow (Theistic Evolutionist) and Tipler (provisional Atheist) A few years later, the rest of the Old Earth pro-ID community joined in who were not from YEC backgrounds. Some of the Major names I listed above. As far as the Discovery Institute, to the best of my knowledge, the YECs are: 1. Nancy Pearcey (maybe) 2. Paul Nelson Jonathan Wells last year at an IDEA meeting at GMU said he is neutral on the issue. Practically all the YEC organizations, despite their complaints about ID carry ID materials. If one visits the AiG and ICR bookstore, one will see ID titles, even those they would deem heretical theologically (like Denton and Gonzalez and Behe).scordova
October 16, 2006
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Dr. MacNeill, I think you've confused ID for OEC perhaps and failed to realize that a lot of the YEC have jumped on the bandwagon of ID since it is friendly to all people who believe in design. ID just has been a more successful push (most likely b/c its relgiously neutral) and its goal purely academic instead of evangelistic. btw the cake tastes good ... :)jpark320
October 16, 2006
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Speaking as an interested outsider, it seems to me that the rise of ID within the "creationist" community indicates that the YEC position is on its last legs, at least insofar as it is held by people who have any understanding of science. To me, Dembski and Behe's theoretical work point directly to (indeed, are predicated upon) the operation of macroevolutionary processes operating in deep evolutionary time; they just hypothesize different mechanisms that do mainstream evolutionary biologists. This therefore implies that if the ID position does indeed become the predominant one among people in the Abrahamic faith communities, it will spell the end once and for all of the YEC position and the end of Biblical literalism. That is, you can't have your cake and eat it too...Allen_MacNeill
October 16, 2006
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I wonder if YEC is mainly a theological position. It seems to be largely held by faith. It seems to many to be necessary to maintain traditional Christian theology like sin and atonement. Bill Dembski's essay earlier this yeaar seems to me may have solved the theological difficulty of OEC. "Christian Theodicy in Light of Genesis and Modern Science." Everyone should read it through. http://www.designinference.com/documents/2006.05.christian_theodicy.pdf If the evangelical YEC and OEC sectors of the ID community can accept that they both hold to the essential theology, then perhaps we could stop arguing about young or old earth in the context of ID, and leave it to somewhere else.idnet.com.au
October 16, 2006
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Of course, I think we can avoid most difficulties with most parties if we simply take ID as a theory of causation. Creationists tend to have a problem seeing that.johnnyb
October 16, 2006
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If I've misrepresented anyones view I'm sorry :(jpark320
October 16, 2006
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I have a question... If some physicists can agree that there must be multiple universes or "something spooky going on", I don't understand why such precluding the option of natural laws can't be applied to nature. Entailing either there's multiple universes or something spooky going on.Ben Z
October 16, 2006
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Well here is my take on someone who is a YEC more on Ken Ham's side theologically (actually I should side my self w/ Dr. Jonathan Safarti, but I'm sure they agree on most tings) and I'm very sympathetic to ID also. I think I can shed some light on this topic for everyone here since I am almost right down smack in the middle (okay so I tip to the YEC, but I have mostly ID books so there :) ) Sal says:
John 10:38 says to me if one cannot accept the Words of the Lord, they are invited to accept the works. I believe that Romans 1:20 indicates that Nature will testify of the designer independent of the scriptures.
I agree w/ you, but Romans 1:20 is talking most definitely of the Triune God specifically ie His invisible attributes, eternal nature, divine - not some other "Designers." Also John 10:38 is talking about the miracles Jesus preformed and that they (and His words) confirm His deity and messiahship. Thus here is where I believe why there is a big split. ID in its pure sense, wants to only go so far as to show that nature in fact has a teleology and wants to change Academia to adopt the correct scientific paradigm and move out the old ie Darwinism. ID cannot show who the designer is by name. But those verses claim not simply that a designer can be shown, but rather the works and nature speak specifically of ONE designer. In fact Romans 1:20 says we can see from the creation His INVISIBLE attributes. As a Christian who identifies highly from that camp i want to ask, "Why stop there so often at any old designer when you should just name the Deigner!" Now to my other fellow Christian brethren here, if you are fighting for ID mainly b/c you believe its a very powerful apologetic to bring people to Christ that's noble, but sometimes we (YECers) don't see that message get across. Now I'm a Calvinist and presuppositional apologists so I disagree w/ this method, but I know the main intentions for someone like Dr. William Lane Craig (and perhaps Dr. Dembski?) who is an Arminian classical apologetics does exactly that. Once again I disagree that is the most effective method, but nonetheless his main intentions are for the furtherance of the Gospel . Okay, so as YECer why am I so heavily involved with ID you ask? Same thing to enhance my witness and always be prepared (I most humbly acknowledge that all this obviously takes a back seat to the Gospel) just like every single other facet of my life. But as a scientist who wishes to pursue research, I don't want to be bogged down by faulty science. It is akin to the conversion of Newtonian to quantum mechanics transition - why be held down by an old paradigm that cannot and will not take you as far as you need to go. However many of my YEC brethren erroneously see it as more of a geocentric to heliocentric transition - that its science PLUS theological ramifications. In college and med school we get to challenge our test questions if we feel that the professors erred and we were right. That's how many Christians in the ID view it - We just want the right answer geez! And when ppl say its "Bible free" they mean that we don't have to go to the prof. w/ the Bible, however I think the "Bible free" gets misinterpreted often as "We don't need the Bible at all not even for our movitations." But as Sal pointed out (in fact he quoted the Bible and publically professes his faith often :) ) it is not that his intentions are out of the Biblical boundaries or "Bible free", but the manifestations of those intentions can be argued upon on a purely scientific basis ie that is the "Bible free" I believe he is talking about. Sorry for my ramble.jpark320
October 16, 2006
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Jaredl: The issue is that the laws of nature cannot be shown to be designed for the simple reason that we can’t know that they could have been any different. I don't think that is correct. Physicists do calculate what the effects would be of differing sets of laws. I remember reading an article in Scientific American a few years ago with a chart that explored the ramifications of different numbers of spatial and temporal dimensions. All of the arguments about the weak and strong anthropic principle revolve around calculating other universes and showing they don't last long enough for us to evolve. It's just like geometry - choose a different set of axioms and you'll get a different geometry - Euclidean, Riemannian, etc.David vun Kannon
October 16, 2006
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Just what are the options for the existence of those laws? Sheer-dumb-luck? POOFED into existence? Intentionally designed? Always were? Just are? JaredL: Actually, that’s my point - we cannot know. Perhaps but we can infer. JaredL: Without being able to show that one possibility was realized to the exception of a LOT of others, we lack one of the two key ingredients for inferring design - demonstration of improbability. Right but we do have experience with designers designing parameters- specified parameters. Also, from "The Privileged Planet":
Imagine you’re taken captive by some powerful aliens, like Q on [I]Star Trek: Generations[/I], a group of highly intelligent if utterly obnoxious beings who exist as a sort of unified community called the Q continuum. Among their many qualifications, the Q can travel back in time. In the story we’re concocting, imagine that the Q transport you back to the moment of the Big Bang. After arriving, one Q takes you to a spacious room, with a large, complicated device on one side, adorned with scores of enormous dials not unlike the dials on a Master padlock. On closer inspection, you notice that every knob is inscribed with numbered lines. And above each knob are titles like “Gravitational Force Constant”, Electromagnetic Force Constant”, Strong Nuclear Force Constant”, and “Weak Nuclear Force Constant”. You ask Q what the machine is, and after some snide and dismissive comments about the feebleness of the human mind, he tells you that it’s a Universe-Creating Machine. According to Q, the great collective Q continuum used it to create out universe. The machine has a viewing screen that allows the Q to preview what different settings will produce before they press Start. Without going into detail about it works, Q explains that the dials must all be set precisely, or the Universe-Creating Machine will spit out a worthless piece of junk ( as shown on its preview screen), like a universe that collapses on itself within a few seconds into a single black hole or drifts along indefinitely as a lifeless hydrogenated soup. “Well how precisely do the knobs have to be set?” you ask. With some embarrassment, Q tells you that, so far, they’ve only found one combination that actually produces a universe even mildly habitable- namely, our own. “So”, you ask, “do you mean that there are only two habitable universes, the one the Q exists in, and ours that you have created?” In a volatile mixture of anger a chagrin, he admits, “Um, no, there’s just this one.” This arouses your suspicions: “Now, what sort of bootstrapping magic allowed you to create the universe you live in?” Crushed by your keen command of logic and highly sensitive baloney detector, Q finally admits, “Well, we didn’t actually find the right combination ourselves. In fact, the machine doesn’t exactly belong to us. We merely found it, with the dials already set. The machine had done its work before we arrived. Ever since then, we’ve been looking for another set of dial combinations to create another habitable universe, but alas, so far we haven’t found one. We’re certain that other habitable universes are possible, though, so we are still looking.” This fanciful story illustrates one of the most startling discoveries of the last century: the universe, as described by its physical laws and constants, seems to be fine-tuned for the existence of life.
IOW it certainly appears there is a probabilty issue. JaredL: Hence, the design inference with respect to the laws of nature is necessarily vacuous. Not at all. We know the laws exist and how they came to be is most definitely of interest scientifically. That is if science really cares about the reality to our existence.Joseph
October 16, 2006
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Sal, Thank you for addressing my question in such depth, and with sensitivity to the differing opinions and perspectives. DavidDavid vun Kannon
October 16, 2006
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Joseph, You comment, Just what are the options for the existence of those laws? Sheer-dumb-luck? POOFED into existence? Intentionally designed? Always were? Just are? Actually, that's my point - we cannot know. Without being able to show that one possibility was realized to the exception of a LOT of others, we lack one of the two key ingredients for inferring design - demonstration of improbability. Hence, the design inference with respect to the laws of nature is necessarily vacuous.jaredl
October 16, 2006
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I am a YEC-leaning believer. I run a Christian ministry that promotes listening to the Bible Ken Ham’s staff in Australia has attacked me via email for supporting ID.
Sheesh!scordova
October 16, 2006
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From what I have heard calling “God” a “designer” is a Bozo no-no.
See Stephen Meyer's Response on the Identity of the Designer, Nightline Interview
Question: You’ve drawn no conclusions on who you think the designer is? Stephen Meyer's answer: I think the designer is God
ID theory does not identify the Designer, but it does not preclude personal opinions from being offered.
IDEA Center website Affiliations: The claim that life was designed by an intelligence is a scientific claim, while the claim that the designer is God, or specifically, the God of the Bible, is a religious one. .... we consider it reasonable to conclude that the designer may be identified as the God of the Bible, while recognizing that others may identify the designer in a different way
scordova
October 16, 2006
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From what I have heard calling "God" a "designer" is a Bozo no-no. JaredL: The issue is that the laws of nature cannot be shown to be designed for the simple reason that we can’t know that they could have been any different. Just what are the options for the existence of those laws? Sheer-dumb-luck? POOFED into existence? Intentionally designed? Always were? Just are? Of Newton, Kepler, & Galileo in the book Mathematics: The Loss of Certainty by Morris Kline, Kline states that these scientist-mathematicians believed that "God had designed the universe, and it was to be expected that all phenomena of nature would follow one master plan. One mind designing a universe would almost surely have employed one set of basic principles to govern all related phenomenon."Joseph
October 16, 2006
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For what it's worth, I believe there is strong scriptural support for Phil Johnson's position and actually against Ken Ham's position. There is a time and place for everything under the sun, even a time for servant of God to serve God by being silent.... John 10:38 says to me if one cannot accept the Words of the Lord, they are invited to accept the works. I believe that Romans 1:20 indicates that Nature will testify of the designer independent of the scriptures. I delight in beginning my talks with an atheistic-materialistic metaphysical assumption as a starting hypothesis and showing via proof-by contradiction it is unsustainable theoretically and empirically. Nature is so carefully architected to testify of design that the work of nature will speak of itself and thus the promise of Romans 1:20 is fulfilled. That is how I can speak before a mixed crowed of atheists and evangelical Christians. I tell the Evangelical Christians about Romans 1:20 and then I proceed to assume (only for the sake of argument), the atheistic metaphysic (which is agreeable to the atheists). I disagree with Ham that it's about world-view. The evidence in nature is strong enough to over come any world view. If one is being run over by a truck, one's world view is irrelevant. Brute facts will prevail in the end, not dogma. For more on the topic of ID and theology, see The Act of Creation: Bridging Transcendence and Immanence by Bill Dembskiscordova
October 16, 2006
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Crazy! I am a YEC-leaning believer. I run a Christian ministry that promotes listening to the Bible. I am the intern and PA for one of the most sought after Bible teachers in the world. Ken Ham's staff in Australia has attacked me via email for supporting ID. If ID is true, it does not need the Bible's help in proving that. I want the Bible OUT of the discussion.Gods iPod
October 16, 2006
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The rift exists bkz each comunity wants the other to do what is not their intended goal. As long as YECers realize what ID is all about, and IDers realize what are the goals of YEC, the "rift" will be gone. Problems arise, however, when IDists demand that YECers abandon the "dogmatic" view of the age of the earth, and when YECers demand that ID be more Biblical.Mats
October 16, 2006
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Well, Mr. Cordova (then!) - I may have phrased the question poorly. The issue is that the laws of nature cannot be shown to be designed for the simple reason that we can't know that they could have been any different. This knocks out the probability aspect of the design inference. The laws certainly are specified, in that they are algorithmically compressible, but that's not sufficient to show design. Collins's view that the laws of nature are designed is therefore without espistemic support, taking Dembski's work on the design inference as normative. Moreover, Collins rejects the design inference with respect to biology, even though it can be shown rigorously that long, biologically functional sequences of DNA are both highly improbable and are specified. The issue then is does Collins reject Dembski's work on the design inference, and if so, what justifies his stance that the laws of nature are designed? Thanks!jaredl
October 16, 2006
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Jaredl, I'll try to get an answer to your question. PS By the way, I'm not a PhD or Dr., yet :-)scordova
October 16, 2006
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"But ID is special, in that even though it is theology free, it has been called, The Bridge Between Science and Theology." Except, as I have noted to both Drs. Dembski and Wells in person - ID doesn't support classical theology, which theology, in the end, must and always shall rest upon counter-inductive claims, none of which are necessitated by the text of the Bible - specifically, God as the grounds of all being, creation ex nihilo, information ex nihilo (or due to the eternal nature which conditions God, take your pick). All that aside, Dr. Cordova, would you mind asking Dr. Collins the question I posed in your post on GMU? Thanks!jaredl
October 16, 2006
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