Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Dawkins’ “God Delusion” considers ID science – false science, Dawkins also pronounces on free will and child sex abuse

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

At Vere loqui, Martin Cothran notes that Richard Dawkins’The God Delusion, provides ammunition to ID advocates.

ID theorists are familiar with the accusation that ID is both unfalsifiable and anyway, already falsified. (The fact that the two claims can be maintained comfortably at once illustrates the extent to which materialism and Darwinism function as ideologies. In general, all arguments in support of an ideology, even contradictory ones, feel good to the ideologue. He attacks others for not supporting his view even when his view is literally incomprehensible.)

Dawkins will have none of that, however. He wants to be consistent. He accuses the National Center for Science Education of being the “Neville Chamberlain school of evolutionists,” because it misguidedly appeases religious people by insisting that ID is not science (and therefore the religious people should ignore ID in favor of Darwinism). Dawkins would prefer that NCSE attack the religious people’s beliefs.

Dawkins, an Oxford scientist and the most popular contemporary defender of evolution, directs withering criticism at NCSE for wimping out in its argument with religious opponents of evolution by saying that the realms of science and religion are totally separate concerns-that scientists should stay on their side of the line and theologians on their side, and everybody can live in peace. Dawkins maintains that religious claims (and, ipso facto, the claims of Intelligent Design) are broadly scientific in character, that they make claims that are falsifiable-and that, in fact, they are false.

As Cothran notes, the ID guys should be glad to hear that.

…, whenever advocates of Intelligent Design hear the argument that Intelligent Design is not science, all they need to do is point to the new book by the man who is perhaps the leading advocate of evolution today who says that this argument is not only wrong, but an example of intellectual cowardice.

Actually, the NCSE approach works pretty well in practice, because it throws up a lot of smoke, panicking soccer moms into declaring a stream of breathless inanities like “there is a place for God – and a place for Darwin!” God bless ’em, the moms are usually pretty pleased with themselves, even if Dawkins isn’t pleased with them at all. And they vote.

Meanwhile, two other Dawkins items of note: Here at Uncommon Descent, Bill Dembski quotes comments Dawkins made at a book signing in Washington:

Maybe the way we laugh at Basil Fawlty, we ought to laugh in the same way at people who blame humans. I mean when we punish people for doing the most horrible murders, maybe the attitude we should take is “Oh they were just determined by their molecules.” It’s stupid to punish them. What we should do is say “This unit has a faulty motherboard which needs to be replaced.” I can’t bring myself to do that. I actually do respond in an emotional way and I blame people, I give people credit, or … But it is an inconsistency that we sort of have to live with otherwise life would be intolerable. But it has nothing to do with my views on religion it is an entirely separate issue.

Dawkin’s general denial of free will sounds quite disjointed in the original too (I am not quoting selectively). But keep in mind that his view is the accepted (though wrong) one in materialist neuroscience, as Mario Beauregard and I will show in our forthcoming forthcoming The Spiritual Brain (Harper 2007).

While we are here, Dawkins offered The Dubliner some comments on the Catholic Church. After rejoicing to hear that a seminary was shutting its doors*, he writes,

The Catholic Church has developed, over the centuries, brilliant techniques in brain washing children; even intelligent people who have had a proper, full cradle-Catholic upbringing find it hard to shake it off when they reach adulthood. Obviously many of them do – and congratulations to them for it – but even some really quite intelligent people fail to shake it off, powerful evidence of the skill in brainwashing that the Catholic Church exercises. It’s far more skilled than, for instance, the Anglican Church, mere amateurs in the game.

One difficulty with Dawkins’ approach to things will be readily apparent here. He cannot entertain the possibility that an adult might not be a materialist and therefore might consider that there is good evidence for the Catholic view of life. That is to say, he does not believe – more to the point, he cannot believe – in a mind apart from the brain. So any belief other than materialism must be mere indoctrination, however supported. But again, let me warn, his is the accepted view in many quarters. The aberration is that he pronounces it so openly.

Just how twisted all this becomes can be seen from Dawkins’ comments for The Dubliner on child sex abuse:

Regarding the accusations of sexual abuse of children by Catholic priests, deplorable and disgusting as those abuses are, they are not so harmful to the children as the grievous mental harm in bringing up the child Catholic in the first place. I had a letter from a woman in America in her forties, who said that when she was a child of about seven, brought up a Catholic, two things happened to her: one was that she was sexually abused by her parish priest. The second thing was that a great friend of hers at school died, and she had nightmares because she thought her friend was going to hell because she wasn’t Catholic. For her there was no question that the greatest child abuse of those two was the abuse of being taught about hell. Being fondled by the priest was negligible in comparison. And I think that’s a fairly common experience. I can’t speak about the really grave sexual abuse that obviously happens sometimes, which actually causes violent physical pain to the altar boy or whoever it is, but I suspect that most of the sexual abuse priests are accused of is comparatively mild – a little bit of fondling perhaps, and a young child might scarcely notice that. The damage, if there is damage, is going to be mental damage anyway, not physical damage. Being taught about hell – being taught that if you sin you will go to everlasting damnation, and really believing that – is going to be a harder piece of child abuse than the comparatively mild sexual abuse.

Reading this put me in mind of the all-too-numerous Canadian teen and twenty-something boys I know of who have committed suicide as a result of sex abuse. I have never heard of one who committed suicide over a hellfire sermon.

(These sex abuse cases occurred in Anglican settings, but that is simply because, before becoming a Catholic, I was active for decades in the Anglican church. Any scoutmaster, headmaster, children’s aid society head, or youth pastor with an ear to the ground will hear of sex abuse cases in any setting that caters to children and teens. Complete prevention may be impossible, but good leadership is distinguished from bad by how it is dealt with.)

*Incidentally, Dawkins would be horrified to visit my own parish in Toronto, where the Fathers of the Oratory are raising money to expand the seminary.

Comments
Linda: If you believe there is evidence for design, then a logical consequence is that there is a designer. Why would you not be curious as to who that designer is? It doesn't matter as to what I'm curious about. What matters is that the information-theoretic apparatus defined by Dembski does not give insight to that question. This isn't disingenuity, it's just the way things are. To criticise us for not identifying the designer is akin to criticising Ford because their automobiles don't function well under water.jaredl
October 26, 2006
October
10
Oct
26
26
2006
12:12 PM
12
12
12
PM
PDT
Dawkins can't help himself - he's an atheist. Atheism is a system of denials of reality. It teaches nothing and is good for nothing. It is, as confessed by atheists everywhere, unfalsifiable. It has no logical foundation. They say, "you can't prove a negative". But they sure try hard! Rather they mere assert the negative and hope they are right. They know it is impossible to disprove the existence of God. Yet still affirm it to be so! Thus self-contradiction abounds on the right hand and on the left within the strange illogical world of atheism. "Considering themselves to wise, they became fools." - Dawkins is a perfect example of this. Here's some cool quotes on atheism: ---------- "Only in Atheism does the spring rise higher than the source, the effect exist without the cause, life come from a stone, blood from a turnip, a silk purse from a sow's ear, a Beethoven Symphony or a Bach Fugue from a kitten walking across the keys....." James M. Gillis A little philosophy inclineth man's mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth men's minds about to religion. There was never miracle wrought by God to convert an atheist, because the light of nature might have led him to confess a God. - Francis Bacon An atheist is one who hopes the Lord will do nothing to disturb his disbelief. - Franklin P. Jones It amazes me to find an intelligent person who fights against something which he does not at all believe exists. -- Mohandas Gandhi Atheism is a crutch for those who cannot bear the reality of God. -- Tom Stoppard You think you are too intelligent to believe in God. I am not like you. -- Napoleon Bonaparte If there were no God, there would be no atheists. -- G.K. Chesterton Humanism or atheism is a wonderful philosophy of life as long as you are big, strong, and between the ages of eighteen and thirty-five. But watch out if you are in a lifeboat and there are others who are younger, bigger, or smarter. --William Murray Still, even the most admirable of atheists is nothing more than a moral parasite, living his life based on borrowed ethics. This is why, when pressed, the atheist will often attempt to hide his lack of conviction in his own beliefs behind some poorly formulated utilitarianism, or argue that he acts out of altruistic self-interest. But this is only post-facto rationalization, not reason or rational behavior. -Vox Day A disbelief in God does not result in a belief in nothing; disbelief in God usually results in a belief in anything. —unknown To sustain the belief that there is no God, atheism has to demonstrate infinite knowledge, which is tantamount to saying, "I have infinite knowledge that there is no being in existence with infinite knowledge" --Ravi Zacharias A god who let us prove his existence would be an idol. -- Deitrich Bonhoeffer A god who would stoop so low as to prove his existence to satisfy a human's disbelief would not be god at all - M.E.. God will not take shelter behind a jugglery of logic or metaphysics. He is neither a schoolman nor theologian, but our Father in Heaven. - George MacDonald Fervid atheism is usually a screen for repressed religion. - WILHELM STEKEL Here lies an Atheist: All Dressed Up and No Place to Go. Epitaph I wanted to be an atheist, but I gave it up. They have no holidays. -- Henry Youngman Atheism is dead, always has been. In fact it is itself a form of death. -M.E. If God were small enough to be understood, He would not be big enough to be worshiped. --Evelyn Underhill AND FINALLY: ---------------------------- "God is dead" - F. Neitzche "Neitzche is dead" - God ----------------------------Borne
October 26, 2006
October
10
Oct
26
26
2006
12:06 PM
12
12
06
PM
PDT
David L. Paulsen and Carl W. Griffin, “Augustine and the Corporeality of God,” Harvard Theological Review 95/1 (2002): 97–118;jaredl
October 26, 2006
October
10
Oct
26
26
2006
12:00 PM
12
12
00
PM
PDT
Paulsen “Early Christian Belief in a Corporeal Deity: Origen and Augustine as Reluctant Witnesses,” Harvard Theological Review 83/2 (1990): 105–16jaredl
October 26, 2006
October
10
Oct
26
26
2006
11:59 AM
11
11
59
AM
PDT
Hold the presses! "the primitive Christians believed in a physically embodied, anthropomorphic God" Wrong!Jack Golightly
October 26, 2006
October
10
Oct
26
26
2006
11:53 AM
11
11
53
AM
PDT
Yes, my view is either in the extreme minority among those here, or is represented by myself alone. There are assumptions which Dembski's claim depends on which aren't shared by myself - and it's interesting to me in the extreme that the primitive Christians believed in a physically embodied, anthropomorphic God, in this context. As I have argued elsewhere, one cannot rigorously show design by application of Dembski's explanatory filter to the universe - hence, the claim that the universe is designed is unassertible as yet. To show the universe is designed, you have to demonstrate, at a minimum, that the laws of nature could have been in fact other than what they are. I'm not holding my breath waiting for that demonstration.jaredl
October 26, 2006
October
10
Oct
26
26
2006
11:40 AM
11
11
40
AM
PDT
I don't have many doubts that most of the contributors and lurkers here believe that the designer was God, particularly the Christian God. And honestly, that is one of the reasons that attracted me to the site. Yet, other options exist. All that is required as a minimum belief is that some form of intelligence is present in the universe and in living organisms. There are a number of ways to flesh this out short of full-blow theism. Or one can, like myself, believe that there is something beyond matter and energy, like intelligence, but be agnostic about it true nature and origins.bj
October 26, 2006
October
10
Oct
26
26
2006
11:36 AM
11
11
36
AM
PDT
Jared, We don’t know the designing agent can not be a strictly physical being, You may be right, but I think that Dr. Dembski appears to disagree with you, at least in this essay: "no intelligent agent who is strictly physical could have presided over the origin of the universe or the origin of life." http://www.leaderu.com/offices/dembski/docs/bd-the_ac.html and we don’t know the universe was designed. I pointed out in another thread that the assertion of the design of the universe is a currently unsound application of design theory. The Discovery Institute also appears to disagree with you: http://www.discovery.org/csc/topQuestions.php#questionsAboutIntelligentDesign The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection. Of course we are not limited in our understanding to Dr. Dembski's or the Discovery Institutes claims, and I may be misreading those claims as well; please correct me if I am. But it seems like the main proponents of ID seem to feel the universe *itself* shows signs of design.franky172
October 26, 2006
October
10
Oct
26
26
2006
11:24 AM
11
11
24
AM
PDT
#12 - We don't know the designing agent can not be a strictly physical being, and we don't know the universe was designed. I pointed out in another thread that the assertion of the design of the universe is a currently unsound application of design theory.jaredl
October 26, 2006
October
10
Oct
26
26
2006
11:17 AM
11
11
17
AM
PDT
Dave, However, given your uninformed comment that ID claims the designer is God If we know that the designing agent can not be a strictly physical being; what options are left to us but God or perhaps Ghosts? If we are left saying "the designer must be a non-physical being that created the universe", isn't that about as close to "god" as a definition can get?franky172
October 26, 2006
October
10
Oct
26
26
2006
11:11 AM
11
11
11
AM
PDT
Jardel1 wrote: "The point is ID makes no claims about the identity of any designer. ID simply distinguishes the effects of intelligent agency from blind material processes under a limited set of circumstances." I've heard this many times. Maybe the "official" line is that ID makes no claims on the identity of the designer, but as Jerry has noted in practice this is not the case. Let's face it, the majority of IDers are evangelical Christians, including Dembski and others of course. I don't know what the percentage is, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is 90% and above. But this comment puzzles me for another reason. If you believe there is evidence for design, then a logical consequence is that there is a designer. Why would you not be curious as to who that designer is? Surely, having knowledge of the designer would then provide important clues as to the nature of the design process wouldn't it? It seems a very arbitrary line to draw (and is it any wonder therefore that so many people accuse IDers of being disingenous here?).Linda Slater
October 26, 2006
October
10
Oct
26
26
2006
10:43 AM
10
10
43
AM
PDT
Jerry, You ask How do you draw the line to what is discussed here? I would draw the line at substantial mischaracterization of what ID consists of.jaredl
October 26, 2006
October
10
Oct
26
26
2006
10:36 AM
10
10
36
AM
PDT
Actually, the NCSE approach works pretty well in practice, because it throws up a lot of smoke, panicking soccer moms into declaring a stream of breathless inanities like “there is a place for God - and a place for Darwin!” God bless ‘em, the moms are usually pretty pleased with themselves, even if Dawkins isn’t pleased with them at all. And they vote.
This is an important part of the issue. My particular religion plays no role in the science of ID nor does anyone elses. But when scientists extrapolate a world where good and evil don't matter, we have the power to counter that notion. If scientists choose to try to write laws that enforce their idea that random, undirected processes can give us morality we have a political choice to make. ID can stand on its own merit. It doesn't need a law to make it illegal. Isn't that what the "scientific method" is for? To determine its usefulness? I vote and I have faith and I also encourage good science.Doug
October 26, 2006
October
10
Oct
26
26
2006
10:20 AM
10
10
20
AM
PDT
jaredl, I don't think too many people here don't understand your point about what ID supposedly is. However, what actually happens here is something quite different. Many of the biggest proponents of ID constantly interject religion into the discussion. Bill, Denyse and Salvador are constantly doing it. When the discussions seem to turn to discussions of God at every turn recently, banning someone because they did not adhere to the "official" definition of ID seems a little much. Why not ban someone every time they quote the bible. Why not ban someone when they talk about the proselytizing of ID in churches and religious venues. How do you draw the line to what is discussed here? I personally would like to get any mention of religion out of the discussions but a lot of the visitors would disappear.jerry
October 26, 2006
October
10
Oct
26
26
2006
10:18 AM
10
10
18
AM
PDT
Look - you guys missed the point, and the point has been one of my particular beefs too, so I don't blame the mods for banning the guy. The point is ID makes no claims about the identity of any designer. ID simply distinguishes the effects of intelligent agency from blind material processes under a limited set of circumstances. If you wish to apply ID to biology, you are led by logic to infer the existence of at least one intelligent agent which preceded the existence of the first cell, which had sufficient causal power to instantiate that cell, and in fact did so. That's all there is to it.jaredl
October 26, 2006
October
10
Oct
26
26
2006
09:46 AM
9
09
46
AM
PDT
Perhaps I’ve just missed it, but where does RD get his notion of good and evil? Indeed, or any naturalist for that matter, when all that we are is a walking bag of chemicals—albeit a sophisticated one. Any property or characteristic that any of us possesses is just a mutation created and preserved by a blind process which cares nothing about us or anyone else. None of it is good or bad; better or worse; virtuous or reprehensible. We're matter and chemistry. And nothing more. It is from this foundation that the naturalist makes a massive leap of faith to non-material values like justice, love, morality, and concern for the abused. What is the basis for calling anything “deplorable and disgusting” when the universe and all it contains is purely material? Why, believing in such non-material nonsense would be like believing in the “Flying Spaghetti Monster, unicorns, Thor, Wotan, Jupiter, or fairies at the bottom of the garden.”SteveB
October 26, 2006
October
10
Oct
26
26
2006
09:40 AM
9
09
40
AM
PDT
Dave, Ban me too. I took no offense at Phil Vaz's comment about the designer being God. I would guess that a very large majority of the pro ID people here explicitly believe the designer is God. Challenge him on it instead of banning him. Certainly Dembski and Behe personally think it is God who is the designer and I am sure most of the others who are pro ID think so too. When the discussion trespasses into discussions of God nearly all the time, it is hard not to associate the designer with God. This is not really a site about science but more of a venue for people to espouse their personal philosophies. So demanding that Phil Vaz's comments be kept to the science of ID alone given the threads of the last few days is ludicrous.jerry
October 26, 2006
October
10
Oct
26
26
2006
09:32 AM
9
09
32
AM
PDT
PhilVaz, I'm prepared to be more generous with your lack of understanding than DaveScot has been. You said:
ID is falsifiable on the claims it makes that are truly scientific (”the immune system is too complex to have evolved” etc), and non-falsifiable in regarding the designer (”the designer is God”).
ID makes some claims such as "the immune system is 'irreduceably complex', and could not have evolved." Please not that "irreduceably complex" is very different from "too complex". The difference is that the irreduceable complexity argument says that multiple specific mutational events had to have occurred simultaneously to produce the net result, where "too complex" is simply a discussion of how many mutational events are required to get there. Let me illustrate. Consider that we find a mouse at the top of the statue of liberty. We can hypothesize that the mouse climbed the staircase all the way up. The "too complex" argument against the hypothesis would say that the staircase is too long for a mouse to climb up. The "irreduceable complexity" argument is that an individual step is too high for the mouse to have climbed. You said, "ID is ... non-falsifiable in regarding the designer ('the designer is God')." You will notice that "ID" makes no claim about who the designer is, and does so exactly for this reason. Each of us individual adherents to ID may have our opinion as to who the designer is, but these opinions are definitely not part of the definition of "ID". DaveScot, PhilVaz has clearly displayed basic ignorance re ID. I question whether he made a "straw man" in that he never suggested that ID was falsified. However, I do believe that this forum is an educational institution, and as such should welcome those who don't yet understand.bFast
October 26, 2006
October
10
Oct
26
26
2006
09:25 AM
9
09
25
AM
PDT
Actually, "ID is falsifiable on the claims it makes that are truly scientific (”the immune system is too complex to have evolved” etc), and non-falsifiable in regarding the designer (”the designer is God”)." is actually a pretty good analysis if it were restated a bit. The immune system and several other supposedly IC systems have been brought up as an instance of complexity where there are no possible or obvious predecessors. If a predecessor could be identified for anyone of the systems as well as the path from a predecessor to the current system then it would be one specific claim that has been falsified. Because the number of complex systems may be endless and all ID needs is one to prove its basic assumption, then the possibility of falsifying ID in general would seemingly be impossible. However, for practical purposes if several of these IC systems were falsified as IC then the whole ID argument would be heading for the trash bin. By the way I don't personally believe any of the IC systems have yet been falsified. To me co-option is nonsense that is evoked whenever the materialist is in trouble and needs a quick "deus ex machina" explanation.jerry
October 26, 2006
October
10
Oct
26
26
2006
09:11 AM
9
09
11
AM
PDT
PhilVaz There has been debate among the moderators whether to ban you. I defended you. However, given your uninformed comment that ID claims the designer is God I'm going to admit an error and correct it right now. You're history.DaveScot
October 26, 2006
October
10
Oct
26
26
2006
09:03 AM
9
09
03
AM
PDT
ID is falsifiable on the claims it makes that are truly scientific (”the immune system is too complex to have evolved” etc), and non-falsifiable in regarding the designer (”the designer is God”). You have subtly misrepresented the actual claims of design theory on the first point, and the second is a strawman.jaredl
October 26, 2006
October
10
Oct
26
26
2006
08:33 AM
8
08
33
AM
PDT
O'leary: "...the accusation that ID is both unfalsifiable and anyway, already falsified....The fact that the two claims can be maintained comfortably at once illustrates the extent to which materialism and Darwinism function as ideologies..." ID is falsifiable on the claims it makes that are truly scientific ("the immune system is too complex to have evolved" etc), and non-falsifiable in regarding the designer ("the designer is God"). Same with creationism: the earth is young and there was a worldwide flood is falsifiable, that God is the Creator and created something is non-falsifiable. On the Catholic Church, the priest abuse scandal statistics reveal the majority (about 70%-80%) of alleged victims were boys or young men from the ages of 11 to 17. The John Jay College report from 2002-2003 is the most comprehensive study on that. http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/PriestAbuseScandal.htm The statistics reveal there were 5000+ priests accused over a 50+ year period (1950-2002), with alleged victims about 11000+ according to the latest stats of those reporting abuse (John Jay study updated in 2005). By contrast, in 2001 alone (one year) there were over 900,000 victims of abuse in the U.S. about 10% of those sexual (90,000 victims). So this is a much more widespread problem in society. See http://www.catholicleague.org/research/abuse_in_social_context.htm Phil PPhilVaz
October 26, 2006
October
10
Oct
26
26
2006
08:25 AM
8
08
25
AM
PDT
Perhaps I've just missed it, but where does RD get his notion of good and evil? Has he discussed this somewhere?Jack Golightly
October 26, 2006
October
10
Oct
26
26
2006
07:49 AM
7
07
49
AM
PDT
1 2

Leave a Reply