Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Denis Alexander’s Strawman Just as Silly

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

In a comment to my last post T.lise picked up on another Darwinist strawman argument.  He quotes Denis Alexander saying:  “Many people impressed . . . of the huge improbabilities involved in biochemical systems coming into being ‘by chance’.  But what the reader might miss easily is that the calculations are based on the whole system self-assembling all in one go . . . But this is tilting at windmills.  No scientist believes that this is the way evolution works.” 

No ID theorist has ever argued that evolution is impossible because complex biochemical systems cannot self assemble “all in one go.”  This is an absurd caricature of the argument from irreducible complexity (IC).  

The basic logic of IC goes like this:  (1) By definition, evolution can work only in a stepwise fashion wherein each successive step is “selected for” because it has conferred a selective advantage on the organism.  (2) an irreducibly complex system is a system which if one part is removed all function ceases.  (3) by definition, therefore, an irreducibly complex system cannot be produced in a stepwise fashion.  (4) therefore evolution is not capable of producing an irreducibly complex system. 

Starting with this logic the ID proponent argues that certain systems are irreducibly complex and therefore could not have been produced by evolution.  The bacterial flagellum and the blood clotting cascade are classic examples of such systems. 

Again, no ID proponent argues that, for example, the bacterial flagellum could not be produced by evolutionary processes because it could not, like Athena from Zeus’s head, spring into being self assembled in one step.  

Now the theory of irreducible complexity is not particularly complicated in principle.  A smart guy like Denis Alexander surely knows that ID proponents don’t claim “System X could not have been produced by evolution unless it could be produced all in one go.”  So yet again we have an ID opponent apparently afraid to take on ID on its own terms.

Comments
Eric: Very well said. I think that perfectly corresponds to my argument, many times repeated here, that: "Complex functions cannot be deconstructed into simple, functional, naturally selectable steps". Well, it feels good to be narcissistic, sometimes! :)gpuccio
December 19, 2011
December
12
Dec
19
19
2011
06:52 AM
6
06
52
AM
PDT
dmullenix: What if there are no goog tickets? What if the probability of printing a good ticket is simply too law if compared to the actual number of tickets printed? There will be only bad tickets in circulation, and you will win exactly nothing. That's exactly the situation for biological information.gpuccio
December 19, 2011
December
12
Dec
19
19
2011
06:49 AM
6
06
49
AM
PDT
Any evidence for the accuracy of your claim?Joe
December 19, 2011
December
12
Dec
19
19
2011
05:47 AM
5
05
47
AM
PDT
A more accurate statement would be that mutations constantly rain free lottery tickets down upon a species. Bad tickets are thrown away and good ones are kept. It's easy to win ten thousand hundred-dollar lotteries that way.dmullenix
December 19, 2011
December
12
Dec
19
19
2011
04:56 AM
4
04
56
AM
PDT
Hi Barry, I told Larry Moran that I would correct your explanation of the evolvability of IC systems. As Behe says on p.39 of his book, IC systems cannot, by definition,evolve directly, i.e., cannot evolve from simpler systems that have the exact same function. However, as Behe points out on p. 40, IC systems might be able to evolve indirectly, i.e., from simpler systems that have other functions. Behe goes on to say that the more complex the IC system, the less likely that this would happen. However, for the sake of clarity we should make it clear exactly what the issue is: improbability, not impossibility.Bilbo I
December 14, 2011
December
12
Dec
14
14
2011
04:00 PM
4
04
00
PM
PDT
Petrushka (6.1): Regarding your first objection above, I made a statement, implied by a quotation *you* had selected, that Denton did not believe that there were functional morphological intermediates for all evolutionary changes. Your response about fossils is not relevant to this claim. Even if the fossil record is as you say it is, my claim was about what Denton believed, not that Denton's belief was borne out by the fossil record. And the fact that Denton believes what I said he believes shows that your *interpretation of Denton* is wrong. And that is what we have been arguing about, *your interpretation of Denton*. We have not been arguing over whether Denton's view of evolution is correct or incorrect, but over what Denton's view of evolution is. It happens that I understand Denton's view of evolution and that you do not. That is why I jumped in, so that the readers here would not be misled by your lack of understanding into adopting a false understanding of Denton's position. As for your quotation from Darwin, it has nothing to do with the point I was making. No one has denied that the rate of evolution can vary. And nothing in that passage changes the fact that Darwin believed there were selectable morphological intermediates all the way up. Behe and Denton both deny that. I've already explained this. If you really think that this passage from Darwin refutes what I have said, then your reading comprehension is so poor that you have no business debating evolution and ID. And if you know that this passage doesn't refute my point, but are just pulling it up to try to throw smoke and dust in everyone's eyes, you are being intellectually dishonest. If you are really interested in learning what Denton thinks, you will invest 20 to 30 hours reading what he wrote. If you are not willing to do that, you are not entitled to an opinion. It's as simple as that. And now I will truly exit. T.Timaeus
December 14, 2011
December
12
Dec
14
14
2011
11:00 AM
11
11
00
AM
PDT
Petrushka (5.1.1.1.2): Assuming that you were indeed referring to Denton's first book rather than Behe's first book, then you wasted somewhat less of my time, but still a considerable amount, as guessing what you meant and writing it up in my last post still took quite a chunk. More important is the point that if you were referring to Denton's first book, we are back to my original answer, i.e., you are flat-out wrong to say that Denton's second book reached a conclusion that was the "opposite" of his first book. I already explained why, and won't again. Your words: "As for “Nature’s Destiny” I have to *assume* that despite your protests, it is as I described ..." indicate clearly what I had inferred, i.e., that you have not read the book. It is intellectually and socially irresponsible to vigorously defend an opinion on a book you haven't read. Put less politely, what you are doing is called bullsh***ing. I repeat, not for you, since you have made up your mind and are not interested in the facts, but for the benefit of other readers here, that Denton does *not* regard mainstream evolutionary theory, i.e., Darwinian theory, as correct. And his position on that -- that Darwinian theory has been largely wrong -- did *not* change between his two books. The difference between his two books lies elsewhere. Of course, to know that, one would have to have read and carefully compared the two books, and you have done neither of those things. T.Timaeus
December 14, 2011
December
12
Dec
14
14
2011
10:32 AM
10
10
32
AM
PDT
Denton clearly implies that sometimes there are no functional morphological intermediate stages, which is dead against Darwin’s account
I hope you are aware that as the fossil record stands today, there are many sequences where the "gaps" are smaller than the differences between dog breeds. Anyway, Darwin was well aware of different rates of change. From Origin of Species, fourth edition:
Species of different genera and classes have not changed at the same rate, or in the same degree. ... [p377] I believe in no fixed law of development, causing all the inhabitants of a country to change abruptly, or simultaneously, or to an equal degree. The process of modification must be extremely slow. The variability of each species is quite independent of that of all others. Whether such variability be taken advantage of by natural selection, and whether the variations be accumulated to a greater or lesser amount, thus causing a greater or lesser amount, thus causing a greater or lesser amount of modification in the varying species, depends on many complex contingencies,—on the variability being of a beneficial nature, on the power of intercrossing and on the rate of breeding, on the slowly changing physical conditions of the country, and more especially on the nature of the other inhabitants with which the varying species comes into competition. Hence it is by no means surprising that one species should retain the same identical form much longer than others; or, if changing, that it should change less. [p378] Groups of species, that is, genera and families, follow the same general rules in their appearance and disappearance as do single species, changing more or less quickly, and in a greater or lesser degree. [p380]
Petrushka
December 14, 2011
December
12
Dec
14
14
2011
06:57 AM
6
06
57
AM
PDT
You’ve just wasted about two hours of my time, and chunks of several other people’s time, because you have been too careless to even determine who wrote the books you have been reading! Every thing I wrote was in reverence to Michael Denton and his two books. The quote I responded mentioned Denton by name, and I specifically said I was talking about Denton's two books.
Consider Denton. He re-examined the evidence used in his book and wrote a follow-up book that reached the opposite conclusion. I was saying that Denton re-examined the evidence used in Denton's first book. The unfortunate reference to "Black Box" comes several posts down, long after I established that I was talking about Denton. It was not intentional, and I apologize for the error. At no point was I comparing Behe and Denton. As for "Nature's Destiny" I have to assume that despite your protests, it is as I described, a theory of design that requires only one intervention -- at creation -- and which accepts mainstream science and mainstream biology as essentially correct. Whether Behe accepts this theory, I don't know.
Petrushka
December 14, 2011
December
12
Dec
14
14
2011
06:43 AM
6
06
43
AM
PDT
Petrushka (5.1.1.1): You've just wasted about two hours of my time, and chunks of several other people's time, because you have been too careless to even determine who wrote the books you have been reading! *Darwin's Black Box* is by Michael *Behe*, not Michael *Denton*! Michael Denton's first book was *Evolution: A Theory in Crisis*! You think you have been contrasting two different books by the same author, when in fact you have been contrasting two books by two different authors! No wonder you couldn't follow my explanations, or anyone else's! If there is such a thing as the "Anti-ID Dork of the Year Award," you've just won it. But even if Michael Behe's *Darwin's Black Box* really *were* Denton's first book, you *still* would have things wrong, because the two books are not in contradiction. As I already explained, Denton agrees with Behe that some morphological boundaries cannot be crossed by small genetic changes which are reflected in small, stepwise, morphological changes. That is, Denton agrees with Behe about the inadequacy of the Darwinian mechanism. What Denton suggests in his second book is not a refutation of Behe, but an explanation for how evolution might work in a non-Darwinian way. (Which is fine with Behe, since he is himself an evolutionist, just not a Darwinian.) If morphological change could occur in leaps, one could go from one irreducibly complex system to another without passing through non-functional and generally lethal intermediate forms. So if there were some way of "storing" small genetic changes until they "added up" to a big morphological change, one could have evolution of radically new forms without having to pass through unselectable intermediaries. That is what Denton is talking about in *Nature's Destiny*, how there might be incrementalism in genomic change but large leaps in morphological change. Of course, if you had even elementary common sense, you would wonder why Behe would have written a strong endorsement for *Nature's Destiny* when (on your interpretation) it contradicted the basic premise of Behe's own *Darwin's Black Box*. But then, of course, since you thought *Darwin's Black Box* was written by Denton -- oh, forget it. I give up even trying to figure out the sources of your incredible confusion. Petrushka, give it up. You have nothing to contribute to these discussions, when you not only can't get straight the ideas in the books you are reading, but can't even figure out who wrote them. T.Timaeus
December 14, 2011
December
12
Dec
14
14
2011
12:31 AM
12
12
31
AM
PDT
It's not a distortion. In Black Box he denied it was possible for life to be connected by small, incremental steps (common descent by small steps). In destiny he argues it was inevitable. The things most argued against on this forum are the small steps (the connectedness of functional sequence space) and the historical fact that macroevolution took place without additional interventions. In the past week I've seen two of the most respected and prolific posters here argue that evolution by incremental steps is impossible, and that the naturalistic origin of life is impossible. Denton argues "that carbon-based life is therefore inevitable on any planetary surface where conditions permit it."(p265) Denton's position on sequence space is compatible with my position. I suspect I first encountered the concept with "Destiny." Please show how I have contradicted myself. Simply asserting that I have misrepresented Denton or contradicted myself is not equivalent to demonstrating it.Petrushka
December 13, 2011
December
12
Dec
13
13
2011
09:19 PM
9
09
19
PM
PDT
Petrushka: I did not undertake to discuss or defend the various forms of ID held by anyone else who posts here. If you have a problem with the views of anyone who posts here, you will have to argue with each such person individually. I undertook only to correct your erroneous and misleading statements about Denton. You continue to make them. And you continue to cherry-pick your quotations. You are avoiding the many places in the book where he explicitly challenges the Darwinian understanding of evolution. So I maintain my position: you have not read the book, or you have not read it in anything more than a cursory way, and what you are doing now is just flipping through the book looking for proof-texts for a preconception you have about Denton. That is neither science nor scholarship. Nevertheless, in one of your quotations, the second, you should be able to see the difference between Denton and Darwin. Denton clearly implies that sometimes there are no functional morphological intermediate stages, which is dead against Darwin's account (but in line with Behe's account of the problem of moving from one irreducibly complex system to another). That is why Denton's discussion of DNA sequence space is important -- it allows for large and sudden leaps in morphology. Of course, such large leaps are neither Darwinian nor neo-Darwinian. In fact, several decades earlier, when the idea of large morphological leaps (the "hopeful monster") was proposed by some biologists, the Darwinians overwhelmingly jumped all over it, denouncing it as a heresy against incrementalism. Again, I find your understanding of both Denton and Darwin inadequate. You are fixated on showing that Denton believes in natural causes and in common descent, which everybody here already knows. You are avoiding the fact that he believes that Darwin and the neo-Darwinians took a major wrong turn and that the future of evolutionary biology lies in a mainly non-Darwinian direction (with Darwinian mechanisms perhaps playing an ancillary role). You also seem unaware that, while Denton has long since left the Discovery Institute and separated himself off from all aspects of ID that have to do with Biblicism, he is still on good terms with many of the ID folk and speaks with respect for their project. There are videos of him on YouTube or some such site, speaking at a recent conference in Italy, where he makes this clear. On the other hand, he does not chum around with the Darwinians -- Coyne, Miller, Lewontin, or any of the Biologos folk (who are all diehard Darwinians). You clearly have misinterpreted what Denton is about. You see in him what you want to see, and you do not hear what he is trying to say. He is arguing for a new way, a way that is neither creationist (in the normal American sense of that term) nor Darwinian, and for a process that is both evolutionary and designed. I'm done with this thread. T.Timaeus
December 13, 2011
December
12
Dec
13
13
2011
09:15 PM
9
09
15
PM
PDT
Petrushka, here is your initial statement: "Consider Denton. He re-examined the evidence used in his book and wrote a follow-up book that reached the opposite conclusion." Your own comments disprove this statement. You need to keep better track of your distortions; posting mutually inconsistent statements so close to one another only makes you look foolish.Barry Arrington
December 13, 2011
December
12
Dec
13
13
2011
09:02 PM
9
09
02
PM
PDT
If you had a case you would no doubt be happy to present it, but you are bluffing. Denton is not far from Deism. He posits a universe designed to produce humans due to the initial conditions at creation. That is consistent with one branch of ID thought, but not with the thoughts of most of the people who post here. The majority of posters here do not accept naturalism, not even a version of naturalism in which the universe is designed to make evolution happen. Try Denton's interpretation on gpuccio or upright biped. Reading a serious book and understanding it would make it possible to pinpoint any major misinterpretation. You haven't actually said what I got wrong. And I doubt if you will try, because you know I have it right.
"One of the most surprising discoveries which has arisen from DNA sequencing has been the remarkable finding that the genomes of all organisms are clustered very close together in a tiny region of DNA sequence space forming a tree of related sequences that can all be interconverted via a series of tiny incremental natural steps" (p276): "Thus, new organs and structures that cannot be reached via a series of functional morphological intermediates can still be reached by change in DNA sequence space." (p279) "We can envisage such a contriving or tampering of the DNA space to be analogous to rearranging the structure of the English lexicon to permit the evolution of a particular word tree, ... However, by playing God and restructuring the lexicon we would be able to arrange a vast word tree within the letter space, so that all functional words were clustered together..." (p434).
So what you have in Denton is the assertion that sequence space is designed so that evolution is inevitable. If true, this makes all arguments against evolution (and Darwinism) superfluous. Darwin is right, and evolution proceeds exactly as mainstream biology proposes. Cake and eat. This is a kind of design, but it is quote different from anything I see being supported here. I find this kind of interesting, because I have a word evolving program that depends on words being connectable in sequence space. It works better in some languages than in others, which demonstrates that the structure of sequence space determines whether evolution is possible or not. And that's a question to be decided by research rather than by thinking about it.Petrushka
December 13, 2011
December
12
Dec
13
13
2011
08:22 PM
8
08
22
PM
PDT
Petrushka (1.1.1.1.4): You "cherry-picked" by quoting one passage out of a 400-page book, a passage which did not deal with some very important aspects of the argument of the book, aspects relevant to the discussion we are having here. No, I am not going to quote at length from Denton to refute you. You are irresponsible to offer opinions about a book you have not read, and I will not do your work for you. Prove that you have read the book by showing me that you understand Denton's argument, and then I will give you a more detailed response. Right now, you haven't earned one. Your reply further shows that you have misunderstood Darwin as badly as you have misunderstood Denton. I would guess, again, that you have not read Darwin, but are relying upon hearsay and summaries from people who agree with your position. Darwin certainly did not claim to have invented the idea of common descent (though he presented it more clearly and forcefully than his predecessors). And while he was certainly trying to convince his readers of common descent, he saw his main new contribution to be precisely what you are trying to minimize in importance -- his mechanism, i.e., natural selection, working on variations which have no intentionality. Denton does not think that Darwin's mechanism (not even as revised and modified by the neo-Darwinians) is the primary driver of evolutionary change. Thus, Denton certainly did not accept "everything which Darwin considered most important." In fact, he explicitly opposes his understanding of evolution to the Darwinian -- something you would know, if you actually read Denton's book, instead of "winging it." The account of Denton that I am giving in no way departs from his opening statement. His opening statement was about naturalism versus direct creation, and he maintains that throughout the book. But that opening statement, because you have read only that, and not the rest of the book, completely misleads you as to Denton's thesis, which is an attack on neo-Darwinian evolution in the name of a front-loaded model which is radically different. Petrushka, reading a serious book, and understanding it, requires a great deal of time, and serious intellectual work. You may be of the internet generation that sees "study" as quickly looking up a quick summary on Wikipedia, and then rushing back into the argument. I'm of the generation that believed that unless you have done your homework, you shouldn't be allowed a place at the discussion table. We ID people have read, not skimmed, but read, slowly and carefully, literally thousands of pages of Darwin, Wallace, Huxley, Denton, Gould, Dawkins, Simpson, etc. If you pseudonymous critics aren't willing to put in that much time and effort, there is no reason why we should take any of your criticisms seriously. T.Timaeus
December 13, 2011
December
12
Dec
13
13
2011
06:36 PM
6
06
36
PM
PDT
I didn't cherry pick. I quoted the entire abstract. At least two-thirds of Darwin's Origin is devoted to common descent, so Denton has accepted everything that Darwin considered most important. Darwin proposed natural selection as the main, but not the only steering factor in evolution. He also accepted Lamarkian evolution, and was possibly the first to recognize sexual selection and female choice. But he knew nothing about genetics, and the actual physical mechanism of heredity and variation remained a mystery to him. So it is not really important whether one updates and corrects his mechanism. He was more interested in the fact of common descent and the time span involved. Denton contradicts nothing about common descent as a fact, nor contradicts the small incremental nature of change parent to child. If you want to argue this, feel free to quote at length from Nature's Destiny, and show me where Denton departs from the opening statement.Petrushka
December 13, 2011
December
12
Dec
13
13
2011
05:32 PM
5
05
32
PM
PDT
Petrushka: You clearly do not understand either of Denton's books. Instead of cherry-picking one quotation, out-of-context, from Denton's book, why don't you do what I did -- read the entire book carefully and make extensive notes on it? And then do the same for his first book? Denton never argued, even in the first book, that "intervention" was required. He argued that the results of fossil and protein studies seemed more compatible with creationism than with Darwinian evolution, but he did not from that draw the conclusion that creationism was a correct account of what had happened. He left the problem unanswered. Evolution (and what he meant by that was Darwinian evolution) was a "theory in crisis," but he did not claim that science had proved creationism to be true. (Nor is it likely that he would, since he had already ceased to be a practicing Christian by that time.) In his second book he strove to show how both evolution and naturalism could be preserved in light of the difficulties raised in his first book. He does this by jettisoning Darwinism for a design-oriented understanding of evolution. The language of design is strong all the through his book, especially in the conclusion, so if you didn't pick that up, you didn't read the book very carefully. More probably, you didn't read it at all, but just read summaries of it by people who disagree with it. Haven't I corrected you on Denton before? Why do you guys (you, Nakashima, etc.) keep coming back here with bluffs about books that you have not read, or that you have only skimmed hastily and sloppily and therefore do not understand? You are not dealing with amateurs here. You are dealing with people who have read the ID, TE and Darwinist literature inside out, and you can't put anything over on us. We know the relevant writings better than you guys do. And until that changes, you will continue to take an embarrassing drubbing every time you come here. Do your homework, or don't bother showing up -- unless it is your intention to make your own side look unprepared for debate in front of thousands of readers. (Which is fine with us.) T.Timaeus
December 13, 2011
December
12
Dec
13
13
2011
05:01 PM
5
05
01
PM
PDT
So Denton opposes special creation, big deal. Are you suggesting that because he is opposed to special creation that he should be viewed as a true believer in evolution and that his criticisms of evolution -- which is what got Behe started thinking about the evidence -- should be ignored? Your point is?Eric Anderson
December 13, 2011
December
12
Dec
13
13
2011
04:53 PM
4
04
53
PM
PDT
"it is important to emphasize at the outset that the argument presented here is entirely consistent with the basic naturalistic assumption of modern science - that the cosmos is a seamless unity which can be comprehended ultimately in its entirety by human reason and in which all phenomena, including life and evolution and the origin of man, are ultimately explicable in terms of natural processes. This is an assumption which is entirely opposed to that of the so-called "special creationist school". According to special creationism, living organisms are not natural forms, whose origin and design were built into the laws of nature from the beginning, but rather contingent forms analogous in essence to human artifacts, the result of a series of supernatural acts, involving the suspension of natural law. Contrary to the creationist position, the whole argument presented here is critically dependent on the presumption of the unbroken continuity of the organic world - that is, on the reality of organic evolution and on the presumption that all living organisms on earth are natural forms in the profoundest sense of the word, no less natural than salt crystals, atoms, waterfalls, or galaxies." (page xvii-xviii).
I recognize that some in the ID movement are fine tuners, but I defy you to reconcile this with gpuccio's position, which requires numerous interventions by active designers.Petrushka
December 13, 2011
December
12
Dec
13
13
2011
03:37 PM
3
03
37
PM
PDT
Eric: Indeed, I was thinking exactly of people like Miller and company. And, obviously, I was paraphrasing, in my way, Dawkins'famous statement about "us".gpuccio
December 13, 2011
December
12
Dec
13
13
2011
03:27 PM
3
03
27
PM
PDT
Petrushka, I assume you mean Denton's Nature's Destiny. He did not come to an "opposite" conclusion in that book. Here's the irony. Did you know that and you're just lying. Or are you ignorant? Hmmmm.Barry Arrington
December 13, 2011
December
12
Dec
13
13
2011
12:50 PM
12
12
50
PM
PDT
Consider Behe. He was going along minding his own business, believing the party line, and then one day read Denton’s book, which piqued an interest, which slowly grew into full-fledged doubt.
Consider Denton. He re-examined the evidence used in his book and wrote a follow-up book that reached the opposite conclusion.Petrushka
December 13, 2011
December
12
Dec
13
13
2011
12:30 PM
12
12
30
PM
PDT
gpuccio:
So, another lie of the darwinists (and I use the term lie because I prefer to think that they are lying, rather than thinking that they are simply ignorant of the basics of science, and therefore stupid and arrogant).
I don't know. That is a tough call. I think there are lots of people, even those involved in the biological sciences who simply haven't thought through the numbers. Further, they've been told all through school that Darwinism "explains" everything, so, they reason, someone else must have the answer. Consider Behe. He was going along minding his own business, believing the party line, and then one day read Denton's book, which piqued an interest, which slowly grew into full-fledged doubt. There are no doubt a lot of folks like that. Now if we're talking about people like Ken Miller, Eugenie Scott, Richard Dawkins, PZ Myers, etc., it is hard to believe that they are not being purposely deceiptful. Yet is it possible that they simply don't understand -- or are incapable of understanding -- rather than intentionally lying. Closed minds coupled with confirmation bias is a powerful thing . . .Eric Anderson
December 13, 2011
December
12
Dec
13
13
2011
12:22 PM
12
12
22
PM
PDT
It might be narcissistic to quote oneself, but this discussion reminds me of something I wrote a while back in discussing the logical tension between the concept of tiny changes and changes that are significant enough to actually confer a survivability advantage. Perhaps worth repeating:
The intellectually-consistent approach to natural selection’s logical limitations, put forth by Richard Goldschmidt, and later given a hesitant nod by Stephen Jay Gould, is to propose abrupt changes that are large enough to provide a real (as opposed to hypothetical) selective advantage – the so-called “hopeful monster.” Most modern-day evolutionists, however, shy away from the hopeful monster for one simple reason – it is not believable. It looks like reliance on fortuitous events. It looks too much like a miracle. So they posit tiny changes and long periods of time, and imagine that together these two elements will result in the significant changes that are needed for natural selection to do its magic. After all, small changes are more believable, and surely there must have been ample time, the thinking goes . . . Unfortunately, the miracle they seek to avoid in the hopeful monster’s sudden physiologically significant changes, is invoked on the other side of the equation with just enough tiny changes, in just the right sequence, at just the right time, and with just the right effect, to carry out the creative work.
Eric Anderson
December 13, 2011
December
12
Dec
13
13
2011
11:50 AM
11
11
50
AM
PDT
Phil Johnson once quipped that instead of entailing that evolution means instantly winning a million-dollar lottery, Darwinists instead insist that it merely involves winning ten thousand successive hundred-dollar lotteries, thereby cleanly solving the problem.Matteo
December 13, 2011
December
12
Dec
13
13
2011
08:58 AM
8
08
58
AM
PDT
Minor correction- Natural selection, not "evolution", requires step-wise selectable stepsJoe
December 13, 2011
December
12
Dec
13
13
2011
03:58 AM
3
03
58
AM
PDT
Barry: This is another good example of how darwinists do not understand probability theory, or just pretend not to understand it. The "all in one go" argument is irrelevant. Let's say that we start from a non coding gene and I am computing the probabilities that it becomes a specific protein coding gene (unrelated at sequence level) by random variation. If the final gene codes for 100 AAs, the search space is 20^100 (10^130, 432 bits). Let's say that we have an approximation of the target space by the Durston method, and that the functional complexity is about 350 bits (about 10^100). That means that the probability of finding by chance a functional state is 1:10^100. Now, there is no reason at all that we have to find that result "all in one go". That would mean that we have only one attempt. But Dembski has always explained that we have to take ninto account the "probabilistic resources" of the system. So, each event of RV (either it involves one aminoacid, like in single point mutations, or all of them, like in frameshift mutations) is just a random generation of a new state among the 10^130 of the search space. The probability of getting a functional result is 1:100. If the system can make, say, 10^30 attempts of RV, still the probability of getting a functional result remains extremely low. And 10^30 attemnpts certainly does not mean that the result must be obtained "all in one go". So, another lie of the darwinists (and I use the term lie because I prefer to think that they are lying, rather than thinking that they are simply ignorant of the basics of science, and therefore stupid and arrogant).gpuccio
December 13, 2011
December
12
Dec
13
13
2011
03:21 AM
3
03
21
AM
PDT
1 2

Leave a Reply