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Design Detection Reported on CBS’s 60 Minutes

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This evening the CBS News show 60 Minutes reported on an impressive example of design detection in the on-line poker world. 

 

Online gambling has grown in a few short years to a 16 billion dollar a year industry, and a big part of that growth has come from internet poker.  Recently several professional gamblers at one of the larger internet poker sites, Ultimatebet.com, noticed that some of their opponents were playing extremely poorly, yet winning consistently.  They suspected cheating. 

 

One of the professionals obtained tracking data on one of the suspected cheaters, and after running the numbers determined that the suspect’s winning hand percentage was 13 standard deviations away from the mean percentage.  This is equivalent to winning a 1,000,000 to 1 lottery six times in a row.  The professionals took their findings to the licensing authority.  Denyse, you’ll get a kick out of this.  Most internet poker sites are licensed by a sovereign Indian nation near Montréal, Canada, the Mohawk Kahnawake tribe.  The tribe hired a professional gaming expert to investigate, and sure enough there was cheating.  One of Ultimatebet’s employees had gotten an administrative password, which gave him the ability to play poker at the site while looking at the other players hands!  In all, the employee stole more than $20,000,000.  Read the whole story here.

 

How does this relate to ID?  The investigation was pure scientific design detection.  Here is how the investigator employeed the scientific method to reach his conclusion.

 

Step 1:  Decide on a question one would like to explore.  In this case, the investigator suspected cheating, but it was just a gut feeling.  The poker players among us know that in any given hand the worst player in the world can beat the best player in the world by pure dumb luck.  I have personally seen a player win a hand in which the probability that he was going to win was only 1%.  But blind luck like this succeeds only in the short run.  In the long run, the better player will always come out ahead.  Here, the investigator saw data that seemingly contradicted that maxim.  A player (let’s call him Joe) who was playing very poorly, constantly taking foolish risks, was nevertheless winning not only in the short run, but also in the long run.

 

Step 2:  Form a hypothesis.  This was easy enough.  The investigator hypothesized that the Joe was cheating.

 

Step 3:  Test the hypothesis.  The investigator gathered data about Joe’s history and performed a statistical analysis to test his hypothesis.  He determined that Joe was winning at a rate that was 15 standard deviations above the mean.  In the story the investigator is quoted saying, “Now, this sort of stuff just doesn’t happen in the real world.”  In other words, the investigator cannot rule out random chance in an absolute sense, but as a practical matter, he is certain that Joe is cheating.

 

Step 4:  Form a conclusion.  The data indicate that Joe is cheating.

 

Acting on his scientific findings, the investigator reported Joe to the licensing authority, which performed its own investigation and found that Joe had in fact been cheating by using the administrative password to look at the other players’ hands while he was playing.

 

How is design detection in this instance different from the design detection employed by ID proponents?  As far as I can tell, not at all.

Comments
Mark, Regarding the last part of your comment, it's true that the chance hypothesis in the first scenario (an average player) becomes the design hypothesis in the second scenario, but that's because the givens are different. In the first scenario we are asking this question:
Given an average player, a fair deck and random shuffling, how likely is it that the observed performance is due to chance?
In the second scenario we are asking:
Given a random call generator, a fair deck and random shuffling, how likely is it that the observed performance is due to chance?
So I do think that these are legitimate cases of design detection. This is no credit to the ID movement, however, as analyses of this kind were being done long before the advent of so-called "ID theory." And as I pointed out earlier in the thread, this method of design detection only works if you have a sufficiently accurate probability distribution for the chance hypothesis. In all of the interesting cases (e.g. the fine-tuning hypothesis or the bacterial flagellum) we cannot accurately estimate the probabilities.ribczynski
December 2, 2008
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Re 30, 32 and 33 above. Unless the designer is omniscient and omnipotent then all accounts that include an element of design also include an element of luck. Even the cheater must have lost sometimes - if you have a pair of twos and all the other players have better hands you are unlikely to win even if you know all the other hards. You can only cut your losses. Excluding the omniscient/omnipotent case then the only meaningful distinction is between explanations that are chance+design or chance alone. Many IDers allow some element of chance in the detail of how a living organism functions (microevolution). They still call it design. Both of the hypotheses on the table involve both design and chance. It is just that one has a smaller element of chance. Hence I find it odd to use it as an example of design detection. Look at it another way. You could imagine another study which ws trying to decide whether a series of outcomes were the result of an ordinary non-cheating player to a machine that generated random calls. If in fact it was a real non-cheating player then no doubt you would find that the results were a lot better than could be reasonably explained by a random call generator. You would have detected design! But this is exactly the case that is dismissed as chance by Barry. (I have nothing against detecting design where it is a well-formulated alternative hypothesis to chance)Mark Frank
December 1, 2008
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#34:
The standard ID stance is that the nature and identity of the designer etc. is outside the realm of ID.
OK then. What branch of science would be appropriate for studying the nature and identity of the designer? Of course, evolution theorists frequently deflect origin-of-life questions by saying that they are outside of the field of evolution, but there are other scientists working on the OOL question. Who is working on identifying the designer, or, indeed, learning anything at all about how design actually works? #35:
Isn’t it strange how often people seem to misunderstand and deform what is really very simple? For them, ID must be all (a general theory of everything) or nothing (creationism in a cheap tuxedo). They cannot simply accept that it is what it is: a very good, and appropriately delimited, scientific theory.
I'm not really qualified to say what is a "good" scientific theory, but how is ID "appropriately limited?" It seems to me that these questions ("How do designed natural features come into being? What sort of being can design features of nature?") would be the very next things that any curious person would want to know. But ID simply refuses to address them. Frankly, I find it remarkable that anyone can take a position that "the designer" is a separate issue from "design detection" with a straight face. And with that, I turn my attention elsewhere.pubdef
December 1, 2008
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"Contrast this with the standard (or, at least, common) ID stance that the nature and identity of the designer and the details of the design process are somehow outside the realm of science." Isn't it strange how often people seem to misunderstand and deform what is really very simple? For them, ID must be all (a general theory of everything) or nothing (creationism in a cheap tuxedo). They cannot simply accept that it is what it is: a very good, and appropriately delimited, scientific theory.gpuccio
December 1, 2008
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Contrast this with the standard (or, at least, common) ID stance that the nature and identity of the designer and the details of the design process are somehow outside the realm of science. Incorrect. The standard ID stance is that the nature and identity of the designer etc. is outside the realm of ID.tribune7
December 1, 2008
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What has been rejected is that hypothesis that the player was average in ability and very lucky. This is not a chance hypothesis. Even an average player chooses their bids. They are not made at random.
And non-foresighted variation is filtered by deterministic natural selection which only varies based upon environmental factors. Your point is? You seem to be ignoring the fact that they "performed a statistical analysis to test his hypothesis. He determined that Joe was winning at a rate that was 15 standard deviations above the mean." There IS a chance hypothesis. Now the overall logic of this situation flows like the EF BUT I would say we don't have enough details in this story in order to apply ID theory. We don't have enough numbers. Does "15 standard deviations above the mean" correspond to odds less than 1 in 10^150? (Then again, a probability bound of 10^150 is probably way too high for implementations like this.)
Contrast this with the standard (or, at least, common) ID stance that the nature and identity of the designer and the details of the design process are somehow outside the realm of science.
Bzzt. Wrong. The ID community's stance is that ID theory should be kept within its scope and people should not make claims that core ID theory cannot support. Read the end of comment #27. Just google UD for predictions, hypotheses, and such for prior discussion on that topic. Personally I'm getting tired of repeating it for every newcomer.Patrick
December 1, 2008
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Mark Frank wrote:
What has been rejected is that hypothesis that the player was average in ability and very lucky. This is not a chance hypothesis.
Mark, I have to disagree with you on this point. A hypothesis can be a chance hypothesis even if some of the givens involve design. For example, suppose someone plays solitaire according to a known, fixed strategy. Out of 1000 games, she wins 250. We can ask the question "Given her strategy, how likely is it that her winning percentage is due solely to chance?" This is a chance hypothesis even if her strategy is designed.
Barry had to explicitly formulate the design hypothesis “cheating” because it was an alternative to another design hypothesis “played well without cheating”.
Actually, "played well without cheating" seems to have been ruled out in advance:
Recently several professional gamblers at one of the larger internet poker sites, Ultimatebet.com, noticed that some of their opponents were playing extremely poorly, yet winning consistently.
ribczynski
December 1, 2008
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pubdef: "The “design detection” here led to investigation by another modality, which in turn led to other evidence..." Which is exactly what science could use more of. Hypotheses which lead to discovery of more evidence.tragicmishap
December 1, 2008
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"What has been rejected is that hypothesis that the player was average in ability and very lucky. " This is not a chance hypothesis?StephenA
December 1, 2008
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Acting on his scientific findings, the investigator reported Joe to the licensing authority, which performed its own investigation and found that Joe had in fact been cheating by using the administrative password to look at the other players’ hands while he was playing. How is design detection in this instance different from the design detection employed by ID proponents? As far as I can tell, not at all.
This is the key, as I see it. The "design detection" here led to investigation by another modality, which in turn led to other evidence (which, if we assume that "Joe" has been convicted of a crime, amounted to proof beyond a reasonable doubt). Contrast this with the standard (or, at least, common) ID stance that the nature and identity of the designer and the details of the design process are somehow outside the realm of science.pubdef
December 1, 2008
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Patrick Actually, by the end of step 3 the design inference has already been made. As you say the Chance Hypothesis is rejected and design is inferred. What has been rejected is that hypothesis that the player was average in ability and very lucky. This is not a chance hypothesis. Even an average player chooses their bids. They are not made at random. The investigation decided between two hypotheses which included design. Barry had to explicitly formulate the design hypothesis "cheating" because it was an alternative to another design hypothesis "played well without cheating".Mark Frank
December 1, 2008
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Mark,
n step 2 you propose a design hypothesis including something about the motivation and capabilities of the designer.
The cheating is itself the instance of design. Dembski has his Caputo example as well. Whether that gives us additional information about the designer is a side issue. Even when examining objects whose Specification is having machine functionality this might be the case. For example, an object whose machine functionality is being a rotor might not give any hint to motivations (we might get hints about capabilities if said rotor is at a nano-scale...or the size of a moon). But if we went to another planet and found an object designed to kill* we might infer that the designer was not a total pacifist. Or a variety of scenarios. *Then again, drilling and other types of equipment can be used to kill...never mind common day objects. But that's beside the point.
Despite what you say, in step 3 you don’t actually test this hypothesis. You test the hypothesis that the player was no more likely to win that an average (or possibly very good) player. This hypothesis is reasonably rejected.
Actually, by the end of step 3 the design inference has already been made. As you say the Chance Hypothesis is rejected and design is inferred. The usage of the Explanatory Filter is over by the beginning of Step 4.
It is easy to the conclusion jump to “therefore he was cheating”.
By Step 4 the investigator is forming an ID-compatible hypothesis by which they proceed to look for a mechanism for the detected design (cheating). Technically this is outside the scope of ID theory proper, but I still commend Barry for including it. I don't want to distract away from the main conversation, but I will add that this is what the ID community is currently doing: attempting to formulate ID-compatible hypotheses.Patrick
December 1, 2008
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Barry I am surprised you offer this as an example of design. The two alternatives are 1) The player tried as hard as possible to win but could not see the other players’ hands. 2) The player tried as hard as possible to win but could see the other players’ hands. Both of these involve a hefty dose of intelligence. The difference is just one of capabilities. It is comparable to two hypotheses about how God created the earth - one of which puts some constraints on his powers. Also your description of the design inference process is strange. In step 2 you propose a design hypothesis including something about the motivation and capabilities of the designer. I thought this was exactly what ID avoided? Most ID opponents have no issue with exploring a design hypothesis where the motivation and capabilities of the designer are specified. Despite what you say, in step 3 you don’t actually test this hypothesis. You test the hypothesis that the player was no more likely to win that an average (or possibly very good) player. This hypotheis is reasonably rejected. It is easy to the conclusion jump to “therefore he was cheating”. In fact it is reasonable given the circumstances but it was by no means proven by the statistics. It required the investigation as well. Perhaps he was just a freak with an extraordinary ability to read minds over the internet. Perhaps God was whispering advice in his ear.Mark Frank
December 1, 2008
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rofltragicmishap
December 1, 2008
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Is it possible that atoms are held together by tiny, invisible fluffy buny rabits? Only if they have pancakes on their head!!!!tribune7
December 1, 2008
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darkell: "My effort to illustrate you can’t prove a negative by using an absurdity obviously failed." Perhaps you should formulate it better then. One man's God is another man's Spaghetti Monster. What constitutes an absurdity is merely an opinion when stated this way. You need to define "absurdity" in a rigorous manner which can then be agreed upon by all parties before we proceed.tragicmishap
December 1, 2008
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Proverbs 26:4-5: "Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you will be like him yourself. Answer a fool according to his folly, or he will be wise in his own eyes." Faced with this no-win situation, I usually choose to answer a fool according to his folly and risk becoming a fool myself, because that is infinitely more fun.tragicmishap
December 1, 2008
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My effort to illustrate you can't prove a negative by using an absurdity obviously failed.darkell
December 1, 2008
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darkell: "Is it possible that atoms are held together by tiny, invisible fluffy buny rabits?" (bunny rabbits) I can't believe someone actually posted such a ridiculous statement! :-o What next? The invisible pink unicorns again? (hint: pink means they reflect certain electromagnetic spectrum wavelengths - around 400nm - thus cannot be invisible) When will these people actually start using their gray matter?Borne
December 1, 2008
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Barry: "Must the design inference be nevertheless rejected because the “the probability distributions” vis a vis the wind and rain option are not “well understood and precise”? Of course not." This is again easily demonstrated by the game of poker. A poker player does not have to understand the probabilities in a precise mathematical fashion to use them to be a good player. An intuitive understanding based on experience and estimates of relative probabilities for the various possible hands will do just fine.tragicmishap
December 1, 2008
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Since several defining characteristics of bunny rabbits are known, such as their size relative to atoms, the fact that they are not invisible, etc., precludes their existing at the sub-atomic level. Therefore it is not possible that tiny, invisible, fluffy bunny rabbits are holding atoms together because they wouldn't be bunny rabbits in any sense of the term.tragicmishap
December 1, 2008
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davescot, Is it possible that atoms are held together by tiny, invisible fluffy buny rabits? If no, support your answer. If yes, then it should have an equal footing to any other theory.darkell
December 1, 2008
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gpuccio--I would add: faith and some stubborn obstinacy… A belief without evidence :-)tribune7
December 1, 2008
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ribczynski Is it possible that life was designed? If no, support your answer. If yes, then evolution based on chance & necessity alone is on the same footing as the explanatory filter. If they are both on the same footing of possibly producing false positives why should we prefer one over the other when the only demonstrated way for complex machinery to come into existence is through design? Even if design might not be true it seems that until some other mechanism is shown to be capable of the task that we should prefer the known mechanism.DaveScot
December 1, 2008
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tribune7: You say (of Rib): "It’s faith you are practicing, not science" I would add: faith and some stubborn obstinacy...gpuccio
December 1, 2008
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Ribczynski--2. Can a given biological structure have come into existence through non-intelligent means? You can’t answer question #1 without knowing how likely it is for our universe to have the constants it does. Without knowing the mechanisms by which universes come into being, it’s impossible to accurately determine the probability distributions. Rib, you continually miss the point. ID does not claim to be definitive. It claims to be falsifiable. IOW, it is science. Based on what we know now ID is the best model. You are saying undiscovered forces are going to falsify ID. It's the same argument Young Earthers make with regard to an old earth. It's faith you are practicing, not science.tribune7
December 1, 2008
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1. Could the physical constants in our universe have achieved their values without the assistance of an intelligent designer?
What are the other options? Dr Hawking says those laws are "just are" (the way they are). And that is not a scientific stance. But that is the only stance for the anti-ID and anti-Creation positions. How is design detection in this instance different from the design detection employed by ID proponents?
They were actually looking for, and found, the designer.
They already had a suspect. They were not looking for him.Joseph
December 1, 2008
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Timaeus: "So if neo-Darwinism cannot provide even rough probability estimates, it is not science;" Great truth and great post! Welcome back.gpuccio
December 1, 2008
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Ribczynski’s reply to Barry Arrington (#2 above), which was meant as a refutation of the possibility of design inference in biological cases, actually harms neo-Darwinism at least as much, if not more, than it harms intelligent design theory. Ribczynski wrote: “To answer question #2, you need to know how likely it is that a particular structure could have evolved via NDE or any other unintelligent natural process. As in the fine-tuning case, we just don’t have accurate estimates for these probabilities, so there is no basis for design detection.” This pretty well gives away the store, as far as neo-Darwinism is concerned. Neo-Darwinism asserts a huge claim, i.e., that unguided processes can produce complex, integrated biological systems. Since the processes are unguided, they ultimately (even when all due weight is given to natural selection) depend upon chance. This means that, for neo-Darwinism to be plausible, probabilities that are not ludicrously low must be assigned to the chance events which are alleged to have generated complex integrated systems. It is not enough for neo-Darwinism to say that somehow, in some way, chance events produced useful mutations, and accumulated them in the genome in just the right sequence to create complex integrated systems which had never existed before. That’s not science; that’s storytelling. If neo-Darwinism is going to claim that it is a scientific hypothesis, it has to be able to put numbers to its hypothesis. (And this is not just for the general reason that science must be quantitative. There are also very real time constraints regarding the fossil record. It is not good enough for chance to be able to turn a primitive primate into a man in a billion years. It has to be able to do so in 10 or 20 million years, because that’s all the time the fossil record allows.) So if neo-Darwinism cannot provide even rough probability estimates, it is not science; and if it can provide rough probability estimates, then the design alternative cannot be discounted. Mr. Ribczynski is caught on the horns of a dilemma. Which alternative will he choose: to say that the design inference in biology is as scientific as the inference of unguided causes made by neo-Darwinism, or to say that neo-Darwinism, unable to adequately quantify itself, is no more scientific than design theory?Timaeus
December 1, 2008
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It's late and I probably won't do this subject justice but one the subject of design vs. chance as it pertains to Mount Rushmore - To me, Mount Rushmore is an example most directly of mimicry, duplicating something that already exists in nature (i.e. human forms), not the design of something never seen before. The impulse to mimic or duplicate things in their environment is a behavior we see continually in the animal kingdom, at all levels. So, a parrot hears a phrase repeated over and over again and eventually starts duplicating it, with increasing success, in an attempt to form social bonds with the the originator of the noise. Baby lions mimic what they see their parents doing, etc. Monkey see monkey do, etc. To take it out of the organic realm, a computerized device could take in a visual scene and store it in its memory and then duplicate it at some later time. There are even such devices that duplicate things in 3-D. Is the device designing things as well? (What is remarkable about computer memory -an array of simple elements capable collectively of serving as a storage medium.) What about epigenesis - a mechanism that duplicates the pattern extant in progeniture biological forms. Is it designing as well? If water reflects your image back to you is it designing? THe only difference with Mount Rushmore, I suppose is that there is the additional objective of "Let's make something really big." So in nature we have preexisting phenomena that are continually duplicated and propogated over time, transitioning through different media, and coming out the other end with a distinct correlation to a form they were in previously. Its all mechanism. In another thread there is a heated discussion (as always) with ID proponents arguing strenuously that consciousness at least is of necessity some mysterious thing not of this world. I suppose they're thinking this mysterious nonphysical thing is necessary also for humans to duplicate things they see in their environment (e.g. Mount Rushmore). To relate this to the gambling discussion, you have a observable pattern and the theory is that given its complexity it had to have originated from some preexisting template that directly correlated to it (i.e. "design".) Fair enough. But with methodological naturalism you're always trying to identify a preexisting template that directly correlates to an existing phenomenon your trying to explain. Of necessity, that preexisting form, plus whatever laws transformed it, collectively equate to the phenomenon you're trying to explain. So in a straightforward understanding of cause and effect, it is always implicity taken for granted that a phenomenon can only be adequately explained by something directly equating to it that preexisted it. That preexisting form might not be trivially recognizable as being the same, but it is the same, (all the same). Take for example some computer image - stored in a computer's memory its not recognizable as that image, but in fact it is. Same with human beings - whatever predated us must equate to us, whether it is trivially recognizable as such or not.JunkyardTornado
December 1, 2008
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