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Dilbert’s creator, Scott Adams, gives lessons in being a troll for science

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Courtesy Salvo 49:

Last fall, Dilbert creator Scott Adams held his first online “Troll College.” Sitting in front of a wonky whiteboard, the satirist extraordinaire and sarcastic poker-of-fun at all things pompous, taught seven rules for would-be internet trolls. One capitalized on the straw man fallacy, which involves misstating your target’s argument, then criticizing the misstatement. Others focused on rhetorical strategy: always issue a “halfpinion,” for example, which reduces a complex issue to one variable, rather than a real opinion, which would require taking all factors into account.

“You should also pretend,” Adams said, moving on to rule number five, “that you as a troll [do] something called ‘understanding science.’ . . . Just make the assumption that you know more about science than other people.” And like a good teacher, he modeled how it should be done. “Ah huh huh huh,” he guffawed, demonstrating the condescending, arrogant, mocking tone you should assume. “You don’t know anything about science, ah ha ha. . . .” A troll should never give reasons for what he “understands.” What matters is the attitude.

Terrell Clemmons, “When Darwin’s Foundations Are Crumbling, What Will the Faithful Do?” at Salvo

They seem to have followed the script, Clemmons reports, with Michael Behe’s Darwin Devolves.

You can sit on the observation deck here.

Hat tip: Philip Cunningham

See also: Dilbert’s Scott Adams And The Reproductively Effective Delusion Evolutionary Thesis

and

Schrodinger’s cat applies for a job

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Comments
Well seeing as most of your posts have nothing whatsoever to do with the science at hand, but with you stating your personal opinion as if it carried any weight on its own, I can see where you would believe that. Since the vast majority of the world's population does believe in the existence of a immortal soul of some sort, then if or if not the soul really does exist is certainly a valid line of scientific inquiry. And again, via recent advances in quantum biology, science has answered in the affirmative:
Darwinian Materialism vs. Quantum Biology – Part II – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSig2CsjKbg
As Stuart Hameroff states in the following video, the quantum information,,, isn’t destroyed. It can’t be destroyed.,,, it’s possible that this quantum information can exist outside the body. Perhaps indefinitely as a soul.”
Leading Scientists Say Consciousness Cannot Die It Goes Back To The Universe – Oct. 19, 2017 – Spiritual Excerpt: “Let’s say the heart stops beating. The blood stops flowing. The microtubules lose their quantum state. But the quantum information, which is in the microtubules, isn’t destroyed. It can’t be destroyed. It just distributes and dissipates to the universe at large. If a patient is resuscitated, revived, this quantum information can go back into the microtubules and the patient says, “I had a near death experience. I saw a white light. I saw a tunnel. I saw my dead relatives.,,” Now if they’re not revived and the patient dies, then it’s possible that this quantum information can exist outside the body. Perhaps indefinitely as a soul.” – Stuart Hameroff – Quantum Entangled Consciousness – Life After Death – video (5:00 minute mark) https://www.disclose.tv/leading-scientists-say-consciousness-cannot-die-it-goes-back-to-the-universe-315604
Of course Hazel, since there is nothing you can really do to overturn this line of scientific evidence, (indeed the evidence from quantum biology is progressively getting stronger), then your only other option is to ignore it, cite Dylan songs, tell me I am wrong in my reading Dave;'s sentiment, etc... etc... anything except ever honestly addressing the actual scientific evidence at hand. Your not even in the ballpark of being scientific. Your fellow atheistic trolls are proud of you!bornagain77
June 30, 2019
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re 78. I was not commenting on Dave's beliefs. I was commenting on your misreading of his comment.hazel
June 30, 2019
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I know you think differently, ba, but to me saving one's soul has nothing to do with science.hazel
June 30, 2019
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And the bible quote was presented right after the science was presented. You know that whole taking context into consideration thing? FWIW, I consider such antics to be trollish behavior on your part.bornagain77
June 30, 2019
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To EDTA. No. What an ungenerous reading of the situation. Not much sense in discussing something with somebody who thinks I don't have considered thoughts and have honestly expressed them. Maybe your problem is that you think people need to be "pinned down", though.hazel
June 30, 2019
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More misreading! :-) The Dylan song is not at all about science. It was in response to your Bible quote.hazel
June 30, 2019
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Hazel answers the science presented with a song from Dylan? Double sheesh!!bornagain77
June 30, 2019
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Atheists who are not strict materialists? I've only heard of such folk in the last year or two. But with survey evidence, plus several guests here saying so, I guess I'll have to accept that it happens. This is only speculation, but it understandably crosses my mind: I wonder whether some wish they could be true atheist/materialists, but after taking a hard look at what that entails, they have decided that it is indeed unlivable. So they had to move back to the right a little, picking up some "spiritual"/metaphysical beliefs to soften the edges. Not so many that they have to deny being atheists, nor so many that they can be accused of being religious. (Plus it has the advantage of making them harder to pin down than a greased pig... 8-)EDTA
June 30, 2019
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ba asks Dave, "Is anything worth more than your soul?" Here's Dylan's answer to this question: a great song, and worth watching the performance if you like Dylan at all. I Ain't Going to Go to Hell for Anybody
I can manipulate people as well as anybody Force 'em and burn 'em, twist 'em and turn 'em I can make believe I'm in love with almost anybody Hold 'em and control 'em, squeeze 'em and tease 'em All that satisfies the fleshy needs I've been down that road, i know what it needs. But I ain't gonna go to hell for anybody I ain't gonna go to hell for anybody I ain't gonna go to hell for anybody Not today, not tonight, not tomorrow, no never, no way! I can persuade people as well as anybody I got the vision but it caused division I can twist the truth as well as anybody I know how to do it, i've been all the way through it But it don't suit my purpose and it ain't my goal To gain the whole world, but give up my soul. But I ain't gonna go to hell for anybody I ain't gonna go to hell for anybody I ain't gonna go to hell for anybody Not for father, not for mother, not for sister, not for father, no way! I can twist the truth around as well as anybody Wine 'em and dine 'em, fool 'em and rule 'em I can rob and steal from people as well as anybody I know how to do it But it don't suit my purpose and it ain't my goal To gain the whole world but give up my soul. But I ain't gonna go to hell for anybody I ain't gonna go to hell for anybody I ain't gonna go to hell for anybody Not for father, not for mother, not for sister, not for father, no way! Smoke arises for ever, on a one-way ticket to burn A place reserved for the devil And for all those that done evil A place of darkness and shame, you can never return. I can influence people as well as anybody I can cause division, can cause division I can mislead people as well as anybody Burn 'em and roll 'em, rob 'em and hold 'em Won't get my story in tricks or cards I can see through man's delusions, i can see through his facades. But I ain't gonna go to hell for anybody I ain't gonna go to hell for anybody I ain't gonna go to hell for anybody Not today, not tonight, not tomorrow, no never, no way! I can write and steal from people as well as anybody Know all the devices, paid a lot of prices I can influence people as well as anybody Go right up to 'em, i know how to do 'em Don't need to depend on tricks or on cards I can see through man's delusions, I can see through his facades But I ain't gonna go to hell for anybody I ain't gonna go to hell for anybody I ain't gonna go to hell for anybody Not today, not tonight, not tomorrow, no never, no way!
hazel
June 30, 2019
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If DaveS believes otherwise than what I wrote about an immaterial platonic realm he can comment, It is not on you to comment on his specific beliefs Hazel. Sheesh!bornagain77
June 30, 2019
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I am intrigued by the way simple statements get misread. Dave wrote,
I’m not a materialist in that I do believe abstract things (numbers, propositions, etc.) actually exist independently of us. That belief comes with a whole host of problems for which I don’t have answers, unfortunately.
ba replied,
Interesting that DaveS considers it ‘unfortunate’ that he is forced to believe that mathematics exist in an immaterial platonic realm.
I hope the misreading is obvious.hazel
June 30, 2019
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At post 51 DaveS states,,,
I’m not a materialist in that I do believe abstract things (numbers, propositions, etc.) actually exist independently of us. That belief comes with a whole host of problems for which I don’t have answers, unfortunately.
Interesting that DaveS considers it 'unfortunate' that he is forced to believe that mathematics exist in an immaterial platonic realm.
What Does It Mean to Say That Science & Religion Conflict? - M. Anthony Mills - April 16, 2018 Excerpt: In fact, more problematic for the materialist than the non-existence of persons is the existence of mathematics. Why? Although a committed materialist might be perfectly willing to accept that you do not really exist, he will have a harder time accepting that numbers do not exist. The trouble is that numbers — along with other mathematical entities such as classes, sets, and functions — are indispensable for modern science. And yet — here’s the rub — these “abstract objects” are not material. Thus, one cannot take science as the only sure guide to reality and at the same time discount disbelief in all immaterial realities. https://www.realclearreligion.org/articles/2018/04/16/what_does_it_mean_to_say_that_science_and_religion_conflict.html
Why in the world would anyone hope that Atheistic materialism be true and be disappointed with the fact that he is forced to admit, via mathematics, that it must be false?
Where are the honest atheists? - Damon Linker Excerpt: If atheism is true, it is far from being good news. Learning that we're alone in the universe, that no one hears or answers our prayers, that humanity is entirely the product of random events, that we have no more intrinsic dignity than non-human and even non-animate clumps of matter, that we face certain annihilation in death, that our sufferings are ultimately pointless, that our lives and loves do not at all matter in a larger sense, that those who commit horrific evils and elude human punishment get away with their crimes scot free — all of this (and much more) is utterly tragic. Honest atheists understand this. Philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche proclaimed the death of God, but he called it an "awe-inspiring catastrophe" for humanity, which now faced the monumental task of avoiding a descent into nihilism.,,, https://theweek.com/articles/466865/where-are-honest-atheists
Indeed, the realization by DaveS that Atheistic materialism must be in some fundamental sense, via mathematics, false should have been a realization that brought a great sense of relief to DaveS, for at least the possibility that the utter dispair of the nihilism inherent in Atheistic materialism has the very real possibility of being completely averted. It is very much similar to a man on death row considering it unfortunate that he will be released from prison because new evidence came forward that proved he was not guilty of his crimes. Despite DaveS's misguided disappointment, DaveS is in good company. Both Einstein and Wigner are on record as to regarding the applicability of mathematics to the universe as a ‘miracle’:
On the Rational Order of the World: a Letter to Maurice Solovine – Albert Einstein – March 30, 1952 Excerpt: “You find it strange that I consider the comprehensibility of the world (to the extent that we are authorized to speak of such a comprehensibility) as a miracle or as an eternal mystery. Well, a priori, one should expect a chaotic world, which cannot be grasped by the mind in any way .. the kind of order created by Newton’s theory of gravitation, for example, is wholly different. Even if a man proposes the axioms of the theory, the success of such a project presupposes a high degree of ordering of the objective world, and this could not be expected a priori. That is the ‘miracle’ which is constantly reinforced as our knowledge expands. There lies the weakness of positivists and professional atheists who are elated because they feel that they have not only successfully rid the world of gods but “bared the miracles.” -Albert Einstein – Letter to Solovine The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural Sciences – Eugene Wigner – 1960 Excerpt: ,,certainly it is hard to believe that our reasoning power was brought, by Darwin’s process of natural selection, to the perfection which it seems to possess.,,, It is difficult to avoid the impression that a miracle confronts us here, quite comparable in its striking nature to the miracle that the human mind can string a thousand arguments together without getting itself into contradictions, or to the two miracles of the existence of laws of nature and of the human mind’s capacity to divine them.,,, The miracle of the appropriateness of the language of mathematics for the formulation of the laws of physics is a wonderful gift which we neither understand nor deserve. We should be grateful for it and hope that it will remain valid in future research and that it will extend, for better or for worse, to our pleasure, even though perhaps also to our bafflement, to wide branches of learning. http://www.dartmouth.edu/~matc/MathDrama/reading/Wigner.html
Alfred Russell Wallace himself thought mathematics alone was sufficient to infer the existence of a soul. Specifically, "Mathematics is alone sufficient to prove in man the possession of a faculty unexistent in other creatures. Then you have music and the artistic faculty. No, the soul was a separate creation.,,"
“Nothing in evolution can account for the soul of man. The difference between man and the other animals is unbridgeable. Mathematics is alone sufficient to prove in man the possession of a faculty unexistent in other creatures. Then you have music and the artistic faculty. No, the soul was a separate creation.,,, ,,, for those who have eyes to see and minds accustomed to reflect, in the minutest cells, in the blood, in the whole earth, and throughout the stellar universe--our own little universe, as one may call it--there is intelligent and conscious direction; in a word, there is Mind." ,,, (Wallace) shook his head and smiled amiably upon the hotheadedness of Darwinians. "The scales on the wings of a moth," he said quietly, "have no explanation in Evolution. They belong to Beauty, and Beauty is a spiritual mystery. Even Huxley was puzzled by the beauty of his environment. What is the origin of Beauty? Evolution cannot explain." — Alfred Russell Wallace, New Thoughts on Evolution, - 1910
And indeed, the inference to a soul from mathematics is fairly straightforward, as Kepler himself noted,
“Geometry is unique and eternal, a reflection from the mind of God. That mankind shares in it is because man is an image of God.” – Johannes Kepler (1571-1630) quoted from his book Harmonices Mundi:
Moreover, the case for a soul has recently become much stronger. Specifically, advances in quantum biology have, in no uncertain terms, confirmed the existence of a transcendent component to man, i.e. conserved quantum information, that is capable of existing beyond the death of our material bodies.
Darwinian Materialism vs. Quantum Biology – Part II - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSig2CsjKbg
As Stuart Hameroff states in the following video, the quantum information,,, isn’t destroyed. It can’t be destroyed.,,, it's possible that this quantum information can exist outside the body. Perhaps indefinitely as a soul.”
Leading Scientists Say Consciousness Cannot Die It Goes Back To The Universe - Oct. 19, 2017 - Spiritual Excerpt: “Let’s say the heart stops beating. The blood stops flowing. The microtubules lose their quantum state. But the quantum information, which is in the microtubules, isn’t destroyed. It can’t be destroyed. It just distributes and dissipates to the universe at large. If a patient is resuscitated, revived, this quantum information can go back into the microtubules and the patient says, “I had a near death experience. I saw a white light. I saw a tunnel. I saw my dead relatives.,,” Now if they’re not revived and the patient dies, then it's possible that this quantum information can exist outside the body. Perhaps indefinitely as a soul.” - Stuart Hameroff - Quantum Entangled Consciousness - Life After Death - video (5:00 minute mark) https://www.disclose.tv/leading-scientists-say-consciousness-cannot-die-it-goes-back-to-the-universe-315604
Moreover, it is also interesting to note that the evidence for life after death is far, far, stronger than the evidence for Darwinian evolution is,,,
Near-Death Experiences: Putting a Darwinist's Evidentiary Standards to the Test - Dr. Michael Egnor - October 15, 2012 Excerpt: Indeed, about 20 percent of NDE's are corroborated, which means that there are independent ways of checking about the veracity of the experience. The patients knew of things that they could not have known except by extraordinary perception -- such as describing details of surgery that they watched while their heart was stopped, etc. Additionally, many NDE's have a vividness and a sense of intense reality that one does not generally encounter in dreams or hallucinations.,,, The most "parsimonious" explanation -- the simplest scientific explanation -- is that the (Near Death) experience was real. Tens of millions of people have had such experiences. That is tens of millions of more times than we have observed the origin of species , (or the origin of life, or the origin of a protein/gene, or of a molecular machine), which is never.,,, The materialist reaction, in short, is unscientific and close-minded. NDE's show fellows like Coyne at their sneering unscientific irrational worst. Somebody finds a crushed fragment of a fossil and it's earth-shaking evidence. Tens of million of people have life-changing spiritual experiences and it's all a big yawn. Note: Dr. Egnor is professor and vice-chairman of neurosurgery at the State University of New York at Stony Brook. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/10/near_death_expe_1065301.html
Thus the Christian Theist, as far as science itself is concerned, is well justified in his belief that his life does not end at the grave and that his life does indeed have meaning and pupose. This is GREAT NEWS. And yet, DaveS, against all reason, considers such a proposition 'unfortunate'. Hopefully DaveS might someday return to sanity and consider the fact that God has an unimagiably great future planned for him and his family to be a very 'fortunate' thing to know and indeed a very great unbreakable promise from God to take hold of.
1 Corinthians 2:9 However, as it is written: "What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived" -- the things God has prepared for those who love him--
Indeed DaveS is 'anything worth more than your soul?'
Mark 8:37 Is anything worth more than your soul?
bornagain77
June 30, 2019
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That's how you begin to see that the core case has been made. Namely that empirical signs such as FSCO/I are reliable signs of intelligently directed configuration as relevant causal factor.kairosfocus
June 30, 2019
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SA writes, " I don’t see how you can consistently oppose the ID proposition." I, like Dave, think I can say that I have never opposed the ID proposition. I remember asking some questions about the source of design, prefacing my questions with an acceptance of the design inference, and about details about where design took place (which kf had mentioned as a factor.) I don't think you can find any place where I have "opposed the ID proposition", much less consistently done so.hazel
June 30, 2019
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It is so hard to get clear understanding with people in a forum like this. SA writes, "You believe that there are some immaterial existences out there." No, I have tried to make it clear that I don't believe there are any "immaterial existences" out these, as in entities which interact as individual beings with the world. I do believe there is an immaterial component to the world which manifests itself in our experience as our minds, and possible manifests itself as a creative force at levels beyond our immediate experience. But these are not "existences."hazel
June 30, 2019
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re 70. Thanks, SA, for the clarification.hazel
June 30, 2019
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Vivid writes, " let Hazel know it and predictably Hazel folded like a cheap suit. Lost a lot of respect for Hazel on that one." What are you talking about? I recall disagreeing with BB about some point on a history/government thread of some kind, but I wasn't very invested in that and I don't think I kept posting. For you to consider that "folding like a cheap suit" is an extremely biased interpretation, I think. I went back and looked at the thread. I disagreed with BB and agreed with you on one point. On another point I misinterpreted what BB had said, and then agree with him when he clarified. These were two separate points. Go back and review, starting with post 57.hazel
June 30, 2019
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Hazel
SA writes, “In my view, this is far more advanced and reasonable than the typical materialist speculation” My short response is that this is not a materialist speculation: it speculatively posits that the material physical world (matter) and the immaterial world (as manifested as our minds to us) arise from the source. It is not a version of materialism.
Yes, understood. I was saying your view was more reasonable Than a materialist view.Silver Asiatic
June 30, 2019
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SA writes, "In my view, this is far more advanced and reasonable than the typical materialist speculation" My short response is that this is not a materialist speculation: it speculatively posits that the material physical world (matter) and the immaterial world (as manifested as our minds to us) arise from the source. It is not a version of materialism.hazel
June 30, 2019
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Hazel
I don’t think, but my basic metaphysical speculation is that there is an underlying unknowable oneness from which both mind and matter arise through what we experience at the physical level as quantum processes. This oneness does not have the quality of personhood, nor take any active interest in human affairs, but it is the source of our minds with which we create personhood within ourselves, and is the creative force which structures matter and mind so that they can function as they do.
This seems good. It's something to work with. Thank you. You offer some details here: a oneness from which mind and personhood emerge, the creative force that structures matter and mind. In my view, this is far more advanced and reasonable than the typical materialist speculation. But why not speculate that God exists, with the immaterial attributes that are understood through logic, and that God is the source of the mind? Why prefer an unknowable oneness as the force? Doesn't this leave many questions as to why it is unknowable, where it comes from and what the purpose of the mind is? Is the unknowable oneness an intelligent force, which created the rational intellect of human beings? If so, doesn't intelligence act for a purpose? Which seems more reasonable to conclude : - there is an unknowable force acting for an unknown reason to create our minds which seek truth and knowledge? or - there is a potentially knowable force acting for reasonable purpose that created our minds to seek truth and knowledge of reality? On what basis would you choose between those options?Silver Asiatic
June 30, 2019
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DaveS
For my part, I don’t really oppose the ID proposition. I don’t think I’ve ever made an argument against ID per se. Rather, specific pro ID arguments that I believe have weaknesses.
As I see it, a guarded acceptance of ID (if that's right) puts you on a path to encounter some bigger questions and some realities that may be (should be) a challenge to atheism. We just look at what the evidence gives us and then affirm what the best explanation we have for it is at this present moment. Evidence of design by intelligence in nature, the existence of immaterial entities present in reality … those two things require an answer for their origin.Silver Asiatic
June 30, 2019
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hazel:
Therefore, what difference does it make if God is excluded from scientific explanations?
Because science cares about reality. That is the reality behind the existence of whatever we are investigating. Therefore, you would exclude God only by providing a more simple explanation, ie one that doesn't require God.ET
June 30, 2019
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JAD re 53 “People on the ID side need to stop taking the bait! They need to stop enabling and pandering to these people. I have said that here many times before but for some reason it doesn’t sink in. The only thing more foolish than being a fool is being played by one. PLEASE STOP being played by these people. If they don’t offer a logically valid argument, with fact based of evidence based premises, don’t reply. If want to be polite then remind them they need to make a valid argument. But please don’t pander.” Yeh I had a pretty interesting experience the other day on the Egnor thread with both Hazel and BB. To my surprise Hazel agreed with a point I was making to rebut some of BB incredible ignorance relating to early American History. BBs reaction was to in effect remind Hazel whose side she must kowtow to and it wasn’t me, as if an argument must be decided upon based on tribalism. In effect BB felt betrayed, let Hazel know it and predictably Hazel folded like a cheap suit. Lost a lot of respect for Hazel on that one. The capper was when I made it very clear to BB that I did not agree with him on a certain subject and his final post was to say how glad he was that I came around to his position , absolutely bizarre behavior. I decided hey this guy or gal is either unable to read, has serious reading comprehension problems , mentally ill or was not interested in anything but trolling, all bad and all not worthy of a direct response. So good advice JAD Vividvividbleau
June 30, 2019
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Brother Brian:
Just as the claim that a hand written sentence from a note written by Crick is proof that DNA is a code is an argument from authority fallacy.
Except said hand written sentence is supported by the science. The genetic code is as real a code as Morse code.
But until there is evidence to the contrary I will live my life under the premise that they do not exist.
And yet there isn't any supporting evidence for materialism. So you have quite the problem.ET
June 30, 2019
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KF
BB, you are setting up a strawman and knocking it over, and you know or should know better.
What strawman are you referring to? You accuse me of erecting so many that it is difficult to keep track.Brother Brian
June 30, 2019
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SA,
I don’t see how you can consistently oppose the ID proposition but affirm that there are immaterial entities/existences out there. In any case, obviously in my view, you’re some steps closer to the truth about reality than the pure materialist is.
For my part, I don't really oppose the ID proposition. I don't think I've ever made an argument against ID per se. Rather, specific pro ID arguments that I believe have weaknesses.daveS
June 30, 2019
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Hazel
I don’t believe in leprechauns, or angels and demons, or fairies. Do I have to provide warrant for such belief, or just point out there is not anywhere enough evidence for such for me to even bother wondering whether they exist?
You believe that there are some immaterial existences out there. What evidence do you have that they/it exists? I'll assume that there is more evidence for whatever that is, than there is for the existence of leprechauns or fairies.Silver Asiatic
June 30, 2019
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Ok: Hazel: Not materialist. Believes in some unidentified … some(thing) or whatever exists??? Nothing more given. Dave: Not materialist. Believes numbers and propositions are immaterial (entities, beings, things, somethings) that exist. Does not know where they came from. Bob and Brother Brian: Materialists Seversky: Believes it is possible that there is something other than material, but has no evidence, so does not affirm that such exists. We consider that Materialism Mimus: I'd guess a Materialst. If I'm right on the last one, that's 4/6 atheists identified as Materialists. 67% It's less than I projected. As for Dave and Hazel, I think there are a lot of questions, driven simply by logic, that you should strive to answer. I don't see how you can consistently oppose the ID proposition but affirm that there are immaterial entities/existences out there. In any case, obviously in my view, you're some steps closer to the truth about reality than the pure materialist is. As I said before though, if the source of your immaterial "things" has certain characteristics that we also assign to God, I think it's tougher to say that's an atheistic viewpoint.Silver Asiatic
June 30, 2019
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F/N: Back on Dec 7, 2007, WmAD posted here on a telling discussion about the US NAS:
https://uncommondescent.com/religion/nas-at-85-atheists-lets-bump-it-up-to-100/ Tyson: I want to put on the table, not why 85% of the members of the National Academy of Sciences reject God, I want to know why 15% of the National Academy don’t. That’s really what we’ve got to address here. Otherwise the public is secondary to this. [Moderator then turns to the panel for responses.] Larry Krauss: It’s hard to know how to respond to Neil, ever. But the question you asked about “Why 15%” disturbs me a little bit because of this other presumption that scientists are somehow not people and that they don’t have the same delusions — I mean, how many of them are pedophiles in the National Academy of Sciences? How many of them are Republicans? [laughter] And so, it would be amazing, of course, if it were zero. That would be the news story. But the point is I don’t think you’d expect them in general to view their religion as a bulwark against science or to view the need to fly into buildings or whatever. So the delusions or predilections are important to recognize, that scientists are people and are as full of delusions about every aspect of their life as everyone else. We all make up inventions so that we can rationalize our existence and why we are who we are. Tyson: But Lawrence, if you can’t convert our colleagues, why do you have any hope that you’re going to convert the public? Krauss: I don’t think we have to convert those people. They’re fine. That’s the point. They’re doing science. I don’t understand why you need to do that.
Dembski then observes:
It’s rare for Larry Krauss to come across as the voice of reason in these debates. But that’s only because Tyson is by comparison so scary. Not only does Tyson want to “convert” his fellow scientists to atheism but he won’t be content with anything less than 100% conversion. I seem to recall past leaders who demanded that 100% of their subjects conform to the religion of the land on pain of death. Is this any different? But of course it is: that was religion, this is science! Question: You think there might be some self-selection going on at the National Academy of Sciences?
The next day, the late Gil Dodgen (we miss you, hope you are enjoying the hang gliding up there!) wrote:
I was an atheist, brainwashed by the establishment, into my 40s. I got a triple dose of indoctrination: from the public schools, from the secular environment in which I grew up (a small college town, surrounded by intellectual university types), and from the university itself. There was no doubt in my mind that God was a human fabrication and that we were the product of purposeless Darwinian mechanisms. In retrospect, however, I realize that I accepted these conclusions completely uncritically, which is ironic, because educated intellectual types supposedly take pride in critical thinking. I was once debating “evolution” with a friend, and I was spouting all the platitudes I had been taught. He said, “Look, rather than debating me, why don’t you read a book, Evolution, A Theory in Crisis, by Michael Denton”? I assumed that it would be some nonsensical religious hogwash, but I was in for a big surprise. I devoured the book in a couple of days, and when I was finished I slapped myself on the forehead and thought, “I’ve been conned all my life!” My atheism was quickly unraveling. This is what the hysterical anti-ID folks fear: Once the evidence of modern science is evaluated without the blinders of a passionately materialistic worldview, design screams at us from every corner.
That's what we are up against. KFkairosfocus
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Brother Brian @ 49 -
SA
What about Bob? Seversky? Mimus? DaveS? Brother Brian? There are “supernatural forces” out there?
I don’t know. But until there is evidence to the contrary I will live my life under the premise that they do not exist.
Oh that's nice. FWIW, I'm not a supernatural force (although I suspect some of our parrots are), but I do exist. I suspect. :-)Bob O'H
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