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Do you have to believe in Adam and Eve?

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It is not often that I find myself in agreement with Professor Jerry Coyne, but this is one of those occasions. Over at his Website, Why Evolution is True, Professor Coyne has written a lengthy post entitled, Catholics proclaim complete harmony between science and their faith, trot out Aquinas again, in which he cites (without naming me) a post of mine from 2010 on Why Aquinas’ views on Scripture would have prevented him from becoming a Darwinist.

I stand by the conclusions I reached in that post, regarding Aquinas’ views on God, creation and Scripture, and I share Coyne’s sense of indignation with the following statement, made by a prominent Catholic theologian from the University of Oxford and a scientist from the American Museum of Natural History:

Evolutionary biology and faith in God are not incompatible, two professors asserted at the international Rimini Meeting, an event that brings hundreds of thousands of people to Italy.

“A proper understanding of creation, especially an understanding set forth by a thinker such as Thomas Aquinas, helps us to see that there is no conflict between evolutionary biology or any of the natural sciences and a fundamental understanding that all that ‘is’, is caused by God,” Professor William E. Carroll of Oxford University’s theology faculty told CNA Aug. 22…

Professor Carroll was a keynote speaker at the Rimini Meeting, an international gathering organized by the Catholic lay movement Communion and Liberation…

Sharing a platform with him was Professor Ian Tattersall of the American Museum of Natural History in New York.

Unlike Aquinas, I happen to be a Catholic who believes in common descent. However, I know enough about the history of the Church’s teachings on human origins over the last 2,000 years, to realize that some things are not up for grabs for Catholics, as Professor Carroll seems to think they are. The contemporary scientific consensus on evolutionary biology clearly contradicts Catholic teaching on several points – the most notable of which is Adam and Eve. (The doctrine that God directly and supernaturally created Adam and Eve’s human souls is another point of conflict.) I thought I’d assemble the evidence here, and let readers judge for themselves.

I intend to show below that the Catholic Church is still committed to the view that the human race is descended from a single original pair, Adam and Eve, and from nobody else.

But there’s more. Fr. Brian Harrison, a conservative Catholic priest who is Associate Professor of Theology, at the Pontifical Catholic University of Puerto Rico, has written a two part article entitled, Did Woman Evolve From the Beasts? – A Defence of Traditional Catholic Doctrine – Part I and Part II, has gone further, and argued that Catholics are, to this day, bound to believe as infallible Catholic teaching the proposition that Eve was formed from Adam’s side, and that if Adam was descended from the animals, the final step in his physical evolution must have been accomplished not naturally, but by supernatural intervention. Or as Fr. Harrison puts it in another article entitled, Did the Human Body evolve naturally? A Forgotten Papal Declaration, “Hence, … a last-minute supernatural intervention at the moment of Adam’s conception would have been necessary in order to give his embryonic body the genetic constitution and physical features of a true human being.” As I am not a theologian, I will content myself with presenting the evidence, so that people can assess it and form their own judgement. I will say, though, that in my opinion, Fr. Harrison makes a very good case (on theological grounds) for his view that while Adam may have evolved, Eve must have been created.

Our review of Catholic tradition will begin in the third century. Even the early Church Father Origen (185-254 A.D.), De Principiis, Book IV, chapter 21, who was a great allegorizer of Scripture, taught the existence of a single individual named Adam, who is the “father of all men”:

For every beginning of those families which have relation to God as to the Father of all, took its commencement lower down with Christ, who is next to the God and Father of all, being thus the Father of every soul, as Adam is the father of all men.

In the fourth century, St. Epiphanius (c. 310- 403 A.D.), Bishop of Constantia in Cyprus, forcefully asserted the truth of monogenism (the doctrine that all human beings are descended from a single pair, Adam and Eve) in his Panarion Book I, Section III, section 39 (Against the Sethians):

4 (2) Two men were not formed (at the beginning). One man was formed, Adam; and Cain, Abel and Seth came from Adam. And the breeds of men before the flood cannot derive from two men but must derive from one, since the breeds all have their own origins from Adam.
(Panarion. Translated by Frank Williams. Copyright 1987 and 1997, by Koninklijke Brill, Leiden, The Netherlands)

The fourth century bishop, St. Ambrose of Milan (c. 339-397 A.D.), who is honored as a Doctor of the Church and who also baptized St. Augustine, clearly taught that Adam was the unique source for the propagation of the human race and that Eve was made from Adam’s side, in chapter 10 of his work, “On Paradise” (c. 375):

(48) … Not without significance, too, is the fact that woman was made out of the rib of Adam. She was not made of the same earth with which he was formed, in order that we might realize that the physical nature of both man and woman is identical and that there was one source for the propagation of the human race. For that reason, neither was man created together with a woman, nor were two men and two women created at the beginning, but first a man and after that a woman. God willed it that human nature be established as one. Thus from the very inception of the human stock He eliminated the possibility that many different natures should arise.
(Cited in Eve and Adam: Jewish, Christian and Muslim readings on Genesis and gender by Kristen E. Kvam, Linda S. Schearing and Valarie H. Ziegler, Indiana University Press, 1999, page 138.)

St. Augustine (354-430 A.D.), writing in his City of God, Book XVI, Chapter 8, on “Whether Certain Monstrous Races of Men are Derived from the Stock of Adam or Noah’s Sons”, taught that Christians are obliged to believe that all human beings on Earth, no matter how different they may appear to other human beings, are descended from a single progenitor or “protoplast”, named Adam:

But whoever is anywhere born a man, that is, a rational, mortal animal, no matter what unusual appearance he presents in color, movement, sound, nor how peculiar he is in some power, part, or quality of his nature, no Christian can doubt that he springs from that one protoplast [original progenitor – i.e. Adam – VJT]. We can distinguish the common human nature from that which is peculiar, and therefore wonderful.

St. Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274), who is known as the Angelic Doctor, Summa Theologica I, q. 102, art. 1, quoted St. Augustine when explaining why Christians are bound to believe in a literal Garden of Eden (Paradise):

I answer that, As Augustine says (De Civ. Dei xiii, 21): “Nothing prevents us from holding, within proper limits, a spiritual paradise; so long as we believe in the truth of the events narrated as having there occurred.” For whatever Scripture tells us about paradise is set down as a matter of history; and wherever Scripture makes use of this method, we must hold to the historical truth of the narrative as a foundation of whatever spiritual explanation we may offer.

St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica I, q. 32, article 4, also taught that Christians are bound to believe factual assertions made in Scripture, even when they have no direct bearing on faith and morals:

A thing is of faith, indirectly, if the denial of it involves as a consequence something against faith; as for instance if anyone said that Samuel was not the son of Elcana, for it follows that the divine Scripture would be false.

And here’s St. Thomas Aquinas again, in his Commentary on Job (Prologue), on why Christians are not permitted to believe that the story of Job was originally intended as nothing more than a parable, as some people in his day (including the Jewish philosopher Maimonides) had suggested:

In Ezechiel, the Lord is represented as saying, “If there were three just men in our midst, Noah, Daniel, and Job, these would free your souls by their justice.” (Ez. 14:14) Clearly Noah and Daniel really were men in the nature of things and so there should be no doubt about Job who is the third man numbered with them. Also, James says, “Behold, we bless those who persevered. You have heard of the suffering of Job and you have seen the intention of the Lord.” (James 5:11) Therefore one must believe that the man Job was a man in the nature of things.

Not the wording: “one must believe” that Job was a real man. If this is what Aquinas held about the historicity of Job, what would he have thought about modern-day Catholics who deny the historical reality of Adam?

Regarding the formation of Eve from Adam’s side, Fr. Brian Harrison handily summarizes the views of Aquinas in his article, Did Woman Evolve From the Beasts? – A Defence of Traditional Catholic Doctrine (Part II):

The most universally approved of all theologians, St. Thomas Aquinas, lived before the modern vocabulary of theological notes had been developed, but it is clear that he judged the doctrine, understood literally and historically, to be totally certain. This is evident from ST, Ia, Q. 92, articles 2 and 3, inquiring, respectively, whether in general it was fitting for woman to be formed from man, and whether, more specifically, it was fitting for her to be formed from the man’s rib. In both articles, the ‘sed contra’ is a peremptory appeal to Scriptural texts: Sir. 17: 5 in art. 2 and Gen. 2: 22 in art. 3. When, in his ‘sed contras’, Aquinas cites a Scriptural text rather than magisterial, patristic or philosophical authorities, he means to show that the answer he discerns to the question being posed is backed up by the supreme authority of God’s own written word, in a passage, moreover, whose meaning is so clear that merely to cite it is to understand it. So in modern theological parlance, we would have to say that St. Thomas is proposing the formation of Eve from Adam’s rib or side as at least ‘proximate to faith’.

A few decades after St. Thomas Aquinas’ death, the ecumenical Council of Vienne in 1312 published the Constitution Fidei catholicae, which referred to the formation of Eve from Adam’s side as pre-figuring the formation of the Church, which the New Testament describes in Ephesians 5:25-32 as the Spouse of Christ:

[We confess] … that after [Jesus’] spirit was already rendered up, his side suffered perforation by a lance, so that through the ensuing flow of water and blood, the one and only, immaculate, virgin holy Mother Church, the Spouse of Christ, might be formed, just as from the side of the first man, cast into sleep, Eve was formed for him unto marriage. This happened so that the reality manifested in our last Adam, that is, Christ, might correspond to a certain prefiguring of that reality constituted by the first and ancient Adam, who, according to the Apostle, “is a type of the one who was to come” [cf. Rom. 5: 14]. (DS 901 = D 480)

The great theologian Francisco Suarez (1548-1617), a Spanish Jesuit who is generally regarded as one of the greatest Scholastic philosophers after St. Thomas Aquinas, held that the immediate formation of Adam’s and Eve’s bodies by God is to be held definitively as Catholic doctrine, as Fr. Brian Harrison notes in his article, Did Woman Evolve From the Beasts? – A Defence of Traditional Catholic Doctrine (Part II):

Suarez, another truly great theologian, teaches that the immediate formation of both Adam’s and Eve’s bodies by God is doctrina catholica“, that is, definitive tenenda.
(De Opere Sex Dierum, 1, 3. ch. 1, nos. 4 and 6.)

Echoing the teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas, Cardinal St. Robert Bellarmine, S.J. (1542-1621), another Doctor of the Church, affirmed the absolute inerrancy of all factual assertions made in Scripture, in his celebrated Letter to Paolo Foscarini on Galileo’s Theories, April 12, 1615:

It would be just as heretical to deny that Abraham had two sons and Jacob twelve, as it would be to deny the virgin birth of Christ, for both are declared by the Holy Ghost through the mouths of the prophets and apostles.

Nor has the teaching of the Church changed in modern times. More than two decades after the publication of Charles Darwin’s The Origin of Species, Pope Leo XIII wrote about the origin of marriage in his 1880 encyclical, Arcanum (On Christian Marriage), paragraph 5, and affirmed that the creation of Eve from Adam’s side was an historical fact that is known to all, and “cannot be doubted by any”:

…The true origin of marriage, venerable brothers, is well known to all. Though revilers of the Christian faith refuse to acknowledge the never-interrupted doctrine of the Church on this subject, and have long striven to destroy the testimony of all nations and of all times, they have nevertheless failed not only to quench the powerful light of truth, but even to lessen it. We record what is to all known, and cannot be doubted by any, that God, on the sixth day of creation, having made man from the slime of the earth, and having breathed into his face the breath of life, gave him a companion, whom He miraculously took from the side of Adam when he was locked in sleep. God thus, in His most far-reaching foresight, decreed that this husband and wife should be the natural beginning of the human race, from whom it might be propagated and preserved by an unfailing fruitfulness throughout all futurity of time.

Fr. Brian Harrison, commenting on the above passage in his article, Early Vatican Responses to the Evolution Controversy, makes the following observation on the state of the controversy regarding evolution within the Catholic Church in the late nineteenth century:

It is noteworthy that no censure was even necessary, during this period, either of a polygenistic account of human origins or of the thesis that the body of the first woman was also a product of evolution. This is because no Catholic author, it seems, had yet dared advocate these theses, in opposition to truths which were so firmly established in Scripture and Tradition.

Some Catholics believe that Pope Pius XII reversed the Church’s stance on evolution. The truth, however, is quite different. In November 1941, Pope Pius XII expressly affirmed that Eve was formed from Adam’s side in an allocution given to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences:

God formed man and crowned his brow with the diadem of his image and likeness… . Only from man could there come another man who could call him father and parent; and the helpmate given to the first man also comes from him and is flesh of his flesh …. Her name comes from the man, because she was taken from him.
(“… Dio plasmò l’uomo e gli coronò la fronte del diadema della sua immagine e somiglianza… . Dall’uomo soltanto poteva venire un altro uomo che lo chiamasse padre e genitore; e l’aiuto dato da Dio al primo uomo viene pure da lui ed è carne della sua carne …, che ha nome dell’uomo, perché da lui è stata tratta“)
(Acta Apostolicae Sedis 33 [1941], p. 506.)

Several years later, Pope Pius XII cautiously permitted theological enquiry into the possible origin of the human body from pre-existing living organisms, in his 1950 encyclical Humani Generis, paragraph 36:

…[T]he Teaching Authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions, on the part of men experienced in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter – for the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God.

However, Pope Pius XII, in the same encyclical, Humani Generis, paragraph 37, reminded Catholics that polygenism (the view that the human race was descended from more than two first parents) is off-limits to Catholics:

When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents.

Pope Pius XII also affirmed that the first eleven chapters of Genesis must be considered free from all historical errors, even if they borrow from popular narratives that were current at the time when Genesis was written, in his encyclical, Humani Generis, paragraphs 38-39:

[T]he first eleven chapters of Genesis, although properly speaking not conforming to the historical method used by the best Greek and Latin writers or by competent authors of our time, do nevertheless pertain to history in a true sense… If, however, the ancient sacred writers have taken anything from popular narrations (and this may be conceded), it must never be forgotten that they did so with the help of divine inspiration, through which they were rendered immune from any error in selecting and evaluating those documents.

Therefore, whatever of the popular narrations have been inserted into the Sacred Scriptures must in no way be considered on a par with myths or other such things…

Finally, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, approved by Pope John Paul II, affirms the reality of Adam and Eve as historical individuals in paragraphs 366 and 375:

The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God – it is not “produced” by the parents – and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection…

The Church, interpreting the symbolism of biblical language in an authentic way, in the light of the New Testament and Tradition, teaches that our first parents, Adam and Eve, were constituted in an original “state of holiness and justice”.

Well, there’s the evidence. What do readers think?

Comments
sorry, that was suppose to be genetic similarities.JLAfan2001
August 31, 2012
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Joe I always thought that the fossil record, homology and the genetic variations supported the tree of life theory and that’s why it’s been around for so long.JLAfan2001
August 31, 2012
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JLAFAN:
If there is no way to test for a tree of life how did (presumably) biologists come up with it?
Darwin came up with it via his imagination.Joe
August 31, 2012
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Joe "Also there isn’t any way to test for a tree of life." If there is no way to test for a tree of life how did (presumably) biologists come up with it? There must have been something that lead to that idea.JLAfan2001
August 31, 2012
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JLAFAN:
Do you believe in the evolutionary tree of life or believe life was more like an orchard? Just trying to get a feel for what you think.
Seeing that evolution doesn't say anything about teh origin of life which means it is OK with multiple origins, it does NOT say anything about a tree of life and would be perfectly OK with an orchard. Also there isn't any way to test for a tree of life.Joe
August 31, 2012
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Robert, in any event, it is apparently a matter of persuasive anecdotal observation concerning adult females as well. Don't women satirically call the common cold, 'man 'flu'? They appear to age quicker than us, yet live longer! None of my opinions and conjectures here are scientifically-based, of course, still less authoritatively so, but they seem to me to present a coherent picture of 'reality on the ground'. I've read a few true stories about individuals who had survived situations, sometimes for prolonged periods, insanely detrimental to their health - a recent one concerning a man in WWII, who, with another serviceman, survived the still-standing, record length of time, adrift in a survival dinghy. Both were finally 'rescued' by what turned out to be a Japanese naval ship, and taken straight to a concentratin camp! He lived into his nineties. An old age for man, isn't it? Now, if we take the history of womankind, I believe we can see a kind of parallel with that man's experience. I mean their very survival, until quite recently has been marginal, in the sense of being largely dependent on marriage or the beneficence, such as it was/is(!) of society, whether 'grass roots', pursuant to Christian love, or government. I also remember reading that the ultimate icon of courage and strength ('machismso', on the face of it) among the Inuit, was an old woman. I can't remember her epic story, but it was of phenomenal endurance against the elements. They also seem to have a psychological, gender-based inheritance, which makes them more mindful of material security, prudent in money-matters, not to speak of being more capable in terms of their aptitude for multitasking*. In other words, if it doesn't break you, it makes you stronger. You sometimes see it with racehorses, the harder they fight for the lead where it matters, the stronger, faster and more difficult to overtake they become - always coming back - or doing their durndest. There's a horse called Tullius strikes me that way. Re the body-hair, I had been taught that it was for protection against the cold, hence polar explorers always wear beards. But anyway, it's certainly all very complicated to speculate upon. 'Lots of Ins and Outs', as the Dude would say. * I'd hardly claim this as a mark of 'machismo', but when I cook a meal (I only heat them up usually), I have to cook each item, eat it, then do the same to the other 'components' of the meal, in turn. Their vocation has been more spiritual, both in terms of their sensitivity for the supernatural and their role as mothers, lynch-pins of the family, so it was thought by foolish people that their intelligence was of an inferior order, mutatis mutandis, to that of males. (one of the funniest things I ever heard was they wouldn't make good bank-managers - having looked after the family's finances since the dawn of time) Now, when our societies are under immense economic threat, due to the predations of the one percent and their enables a little lower down - and the process has been going on for several decades, of course - we are finding that it is the females who are excelling in their academic studies! Well, who'd a thunk? And in science subjects! As I've said elsewhere, I believe our worldly intelligence is a degradation of our spiritual intelligence, although for a good enough purpose - most importantly, to protect and aid the more endemically, spiritually-endowed, the poorer part of the poplulation. If motivated, they can become more worldy-wise, but less so, the worldly-wise in the other direction. A leading Irish nationalist politician and one-time freedom-fighter, who, as a lad, had worked in a butcher's shop, impressed an English MI5 officer to the extent that he remarked that he felt he had been talking with someone of the level of a brigadier. I think he might have been of a subordinate rank, himself! In other words, 'Needs must when the Devil drives.' Many people of ordinary status do not develop their wordly intelligence for any number of reasons; some, I believe, associated with a subconcious class loyalty. Anyway, these are all generalisations, perhaps some of them very wide of the mark, but such as we must make in order to try to make sense of our world, science being very limited in its purview in the immeasurably subtler areas of our knowledge, as it relates to more specifically human affairs.Axel
August 31, 2012
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Robert Byers, "I mean Adam had no beard because it was perfect in Eden and no threat from nature. Perhaps after he needed it." Created with absence for all hair? after Fall, make transformation of hairy man y woman. sergiosergiomendes
August 31, 2012
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JLA fan, you wrote: "Sorry, I didn’t mean to offend you. Perhaps I don’t understand everything you are saying but I don’t think that makes me spiritually or intellectually lazy. I have been searching for an answer for a about a year now. I’ve been looking at things like cosmology, miracles, evolution, NDEs, historical Jesus etc. but the one thing I can’t seem to get over is the evolution. I grew up as a literalist/inerrantist. I was told that anything outside that and you good be slipping into incorrect doctrine, new age, spiritualism etc. When I hear things about modifying my worldview, it feels like accepting new age doctrine (not saying that’s what you believe because I really don’t know what you do believe)." OK, you've now told me two things: You grew up as a literalist/inerrantist. And you've been searching for answers for about a year now. It would help if knew a bit more. For example, how old are you? (Not exactly, just roughly, e.g., teenager, 20s, 30s, 40s) And what formal education do you have beyond high school? Technical diploma? Four-year bachelor's? And if the latter, what subject? Humanities? Social sciences? Natural science or math? Engineering? Business? Phys. Ed.? Etc. Also, did you grow up with music (outside of religious music), art, or other forms of culture in the home? Did you go to a public or private school, and if private, was it a religiously oriented school that taught inerrantism, YEC, etc.? All this sort of information would help me to help you. What I would tell a 40-year old with a Ph.D. in Mathematics who grew up listening to Mozart at home and went to a suburban public high school with high academic standards and was in the Drama Club there had two or three lifelong best friends who were Catholics or Episcopalians and had occasionally observed their religious services or activities, and what I would tell a 20-year-old with no university education, who wasn't allowed to play cards except for UNO, and even then not on Sundays, and listened only to revivalist music at home, and was taught that Catholics and Episcopalians were no better than pagans, and that drinking a glass of beer would send one straight to hell, would be quite different. That's why I suggested that you give me an e-mail address that conceals your name, so that I could write to you with suggestions that are more personally oriented. Evolution as such is no threat to any forms of Christianity except for those which are Genesis-literalist in a very narrow sense. The vast majority of Christians on the planet are able to fit evolution into their Christian beliefs. But people like Provine (whom you quote) and people like Dawkins try to drive a wedge between science and faith. You should know -- if you don't already -- that Provine grew up in a narrow fundamentalist home, and his extreme atheism is a reaction against that. You don't find many people who grew up in moderate Catholic or Anglican or Lutheran homes throwing out their religion because of evolution. That should tell you that it's not Christianity, but only a certain kind of Christianity, that is in tension with evolution. You also have to understand that "evolution" can mean anything from what Provine means by it -- an atheistic, materialistic world view which reduces man to nothingness -- to a simple historical assertion that organisms have changed their form over time -- an assertion that in no way requires atheism or materialism, and is compatible with saying that God planned and guided all those changes with a view to ending up with man, whom he intended to instruct in divine ways (i.e., the ways taught in the Bible). There are writings that can help make these things clear to you. I can point out some of them to you. But there is no point in my doing so until I have some idea of who you are. You may be a very non-academic sort of person who reads at only 100 words per minute and for whom reading a 400-page book with long sentences and university-level vocabulary is like climbing Mt. Everest. Or you may be a very well-educated person for whom long books on scientific or theological subjects are no problem. You may have already read some of the things I would point you to. You may also have read a lot of rubbish, and if I knew the authors you had been reading, that might give me a clue to lead you out of the darkness you are in and into the light. At this point, with my limited information, all I can tell you is that there is hope. You don't *have* to end up like ex-fundamentalists-turned-leading-atheists like Bart Ehrman and Will Provine. Your fundamentalist upbringing is a disadvantage, because it will have taught you to polarize things, and to think in black and white, and to avoid reasoning out theological and philosophical matters for yourself and rely on authority instead. Someone raised Anglican or Jewish or Catholic, where freedom of thought is more often praised, and learning about other views is encouraged, will not have this problem. On the other hand, if you know your Bible very well, and are open to different readings of it than you are used to hearing in the home and pulpit, you might respond to certain approaches which are Biblically grounded but not inerrantist-fundamentalist. The ball's in your court. I'm willing to talk to you in public, but if you'd rather, I'd do it privately. And don't worry about Will Provine. I have academic training as good as Will Provine's -- probably better, because when I went through it was much harder to get a Ph.D. than it was in Provine's day. I know theology far better than Provine, I know science at least as well as Provine, and I probably know philosophy as well as or better than Provine. I also know the Biblical languages and world religions far better than Provine, and far better than all the New Atheists -- Hitchens, Dawkins, etc. -- put together. I can dance with them on any dance floor in the world, and match them step for step, and usually do better than that. I don't fear that any atheist/materialist will shake my belief in God, because I know all their arguments better than they do, and I know all the standard counter-arguments, plus I have a few of my own. So don't worry, if your concern is that God might not exist. God exists, all right. It's just that the New Atheists pea-brains have a shallow idea of God. And it's really the inverse of the shallow idea of God you were taught; and the two positions, the atheist and the narrow fundamentalist, play off each other in an endless dance of ignorance which reinforces the prejudices of both sides. I think that both atheism and inerrantism-literalism need to be smashed, because I think both of them are cancers eating away at the spiritual life of man and blocking man's view of God. So if you want my help, I'm willing to give it. But I need your cooperation to do it. Your alternative is to wander around on the internet, picking up all kinds of "views." If you know how to discriminate among all these views, and pick out the good from the bad, that could help. But I get the impression that the avalanche of "views" is drowning you rather than liberating you, making things seem more hopeless than hopeful. If that's what's happening to you, turn off your computer and start reading some good books. I can give you a list, tailored to whatever level of understanding you are at. Best wishes.Timaeus
August 30, 2012
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Axel. my mom was a nurse too and I heard things about girls being stronger then boys too. However perhaps its just poor analysis. More gorls then boys are born and so on. Adam would of seen all creatures in male/female divisions and parts and so if he was the male one it would suggest to him a chick is coming. Yet it seems he had no such idea. So i suggest he was self reproducing and knew it. So the "rib" was this organ taken away and so today we have no evidence of it. I mean Adam had no beard because it was perfect in Eden and no threat from nature. Perhaps after he needed it. The eskimo would not need hairy hair growth as hair, I say, is for keeping people dry. Not warm. Its rainy in europe but not asia/North America. Animals in the tropics are very hairy also but not because its cold. I see out hair growth as simply a reaction to moisture which the body, wrongly, interpreted as a threat to warmth. So we need deordant and have hair there uselessly. And so on. It all indicates biological change comes from innate triggers but no grand strategy. Its possible asian bodies represent the original look of post flood people below the neck. Hairless.Robert Byers
August 30, 2012
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JLAFan2001: I think that if God was real then there should be one irrefutable argument for His existence.
There is: If everything in the Universe is contigent, then there must be at least one thing that is necessary, and that necessary thing cannot be contingent on this Universe. Or you can follow the other logical conclusion: Silencing all Christians is a perfectly acceptable way of dealing with them.Upright BiPed
August 30, 2012
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JLAFan2001: I think that if God was real then there should be one irrefutable argument for His existence.
If God were real, maybe arguments are not the way to discover that fact. Maybe he wants to directly reveal his existence to you.CentralScrutinizer
August 30, 2012
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JLAfan2001,
Why would God create such an ecosystem that relied on killing each other for survival and call it good?
This question shows up even if evolution is false. Animals are carnivores period, whether they evolved to be so or were created as such. As for why - probably because death, particularly animal death, does not preclude something being good. In fact the very idea of death as something that can be ultimately made good is pretty central to Christianity and judaism both.
Good point. I guess because God took the time too specifically create us rather than nature doing it’s thing.
Sure, but nothing precludes God 'specifically creating' us through evolution, because evolutionary theory as science does not say evolution is unguided, unpurposeful, etc. Evolution, for God, is just another creation method - certainly in principle. The outcomes of evolution aren't unknown to God, and anyone who says that evolution is unguided is going way, way beyond science. If you're interested in reading, I suggest having a look at 'Where The Conflict Really Lies' by Alvin Plantinga.
Another good point about believing something I don’t understand. I guess because of the challenge posed against it, I end up assuming the subject in question is wrong. Honestly, part of the problem of my searching is all the back and forth comments, articles, debates etc. gets real tiresome. I think that if God was real then there should be one irrefutable argument for His existence.
Sure, but even if there were one irrefutable argument, that doesn't mean you wouldn't get a thousand people (for whatever reason, honest or not) offering what they call refutations. It would just mean the refutations are wrong, and you're back to square one of having to figure out if the refutations are right. I agree that going through the comments get tiring - people never stop arguing, *even if they are decisively proven wrong*. This isn't just relevant to the question of God, but just about everything but mathematics and logic - and some people dispute the fundamentals of logic or math. (We've seen them do it on UD.)
I appreciate the help, guys. I’m just really struggling to make sense of things. The following quote from Willaim Provine basically haunts my steps concerning evolution.
The problem with Provine is that 'modern evolutionary biology' tells him no such thing - he is misrepresenting what science as science can actually indicate, not to mention the state of the field. Plenty of *atheists* disagree with Provine (I recommend the Elliot Sober article I linked), to say nothing of theists. Don't let the fact that he's an evolutionary biologist saying something forcefully haunt you, because frankly, scientists often go far beyond their field to pontificate, or far beyond the data. (See the controversies over string theory, see the original fights over everything from plate tectonics to quantum physics. Scientists love to misrepresent their authority and knowledge - they're similar to most other authorities in that respect.)nullasalus
August 30, 2012
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Timaeus Sorry, I didn’t mean to offend you. Perhaps I don’t understand everything you are saying but I don’t think that makes me spiritually or intellectually lazy. I have been searching for an answer for a about a year now. I’ve been looking at things like cosmology, miracles, evolution, NDEs, historical Jesus etc. but the one thing I can’t seem to get over is the evolution. I grew up as a literalist/inerrantist. I was told that anything outside that and you good be slipping into incorrect doctrine, new age, spiritualism etc. When I hear things about modifying my worldview, it feels like accepting new age doctrine (not saying that’s what you believe because I really don’t know what you do believe). Joe Do you believe in the evolutionary tree of life or believe life was more like an orchard? Just trying to get a feel for what you think. Nullasulas “But for another, by Genesis, God always cared about more than humans – hence you can see God calling His creation “good” even with regards to animals, plants, the universe itself, and so on.” Why would God create such an ecosystem that relied on killing each other for survival and call it good? “Why is ‘created directed out of dust’ somehow better than ‘created directly from pre-existing hominids’ or even ‘created via an intentional, guided evolutionary process’?” Good point. I guess because God took the time too specifically create us rather than nature doing it’s thing. “Just about anything is in question if you ‘look around on the internet’. I understand what you mean, however – you read about an argument, you go to find counterarguments and criticisms, and you certainly find them. The problem is, if it goes over your head, then how do you know that the counterargument truly works? How do you know they’re even fairly representing the claim they’re addressing to begin with, or even the conclusions?” Another good point about believing something I don’t understand. I guess because of the challenge posed against it, I end up assuming the subject in question is wrong. Honestly, part of the problem of my searching is all the back and forth comments, articles, debates etc. gets real tiresome. I think that if God was real then there should be one irrefutable argument for His existence. Upright Biped “If Darwinian evolution itself is dependent upon semiotic information to exist, then it cannot be the source of the semiotic information. To say otherwise, is to say that something that does not yet exist is capable of causing something to happen.” I was using an argument similar to this the other day. How can evolution create a system to adapt to the environment before it knew there was an environment to adapt to? I appreciate the help, guys. I’m just really struggling to make sense of things. The following quote from Willaim Provine basically haunts my steps concerning evolution. “Let me summarize my views on what modern evolutionary biology tells us loud and clear … There are no gods, no purposes, no goal-directed forces of any kind. There is no life after death. When I die, I am absolutely certain that I am going to be dead. That’s the end for me. There is no ultimate foundation for ethics, no ultimate meaning to life, and no free will for humans, either.”JLAfan2001
August 30, 2012
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JLAfan, Evolution has material requirements. Evolution is not capable of establishing those material requirements. Darwinian evolution is 100% dependent upon the existence of recorded heritable information (i.e. it is the information that evolves over time). Without that, there is no Darwinian evolution. Science has demonstrated that this information exists in a semiotic state. Semiosis is a processes that uses representations and protocols (rules) instantiated in matter (as a medium) in order to transfer the information. Evolution cannot establish this semiotic state, and the logic is simple: If Darwinian evolution itself is dependent upon semiotic information to exist, then it cannot be the source of the semiotic information. To say otherwise, is to say that somehthing that does not yet exist is capable of causing something to happen. If you care to understand these issue a little more clearly, I would suggest the following as a modest start: A short history of biosemiotics Marciello Barbieri The physics of symbols: bridging the epistemic cut Howard Pattee The concept of information Rafael Cappurro Good luck to youUpright BiPed
August 30, 2012
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JLAfan,
If you believe in common descent then man was not a special creation. Why should God give a fig about a bunch of smart evolved monkeys?
For one thing, man is not just 'a bunch of smart evolved monkeys', and you're incorrect with regards to the claim that special creation and common descent are incompatible. But for another, by Genesis, God always cared about more than humans - hence you can see God calling His creation "good" even with regards to animals, plants, the universe itself, and so on. So I'd have to ask, why wouldn't God care about humans, regardless of their origins? Why is 'created directed out of dust' somehow better than 'created directly from pre-existing hominids' or even 'created via an intentional, guided evolutionary process'?
I’m not a biology student by any means so some of this stuff goes over my head. What exactly are neutral mutations? Also, when I look around the internet it seems a lot of Gauger’s stuff is in question.
Just about anything is in question if you 'look around on the internet'. I understand what you mean, however - you read about an argument, you go to find counterarguments and criticisms, and you certainly find them. The problem is, if it goes over your head, then how do you know that the counterargument truly works? How do you know they're even fairly representing the claim they're addressing to begin with, or even the conclusions? I'm not giving a solution to this problem right away, but I'm putting it in greater relief.
The big difference between ID and evolution is that the designer can’t be scientifically detected. Dawkins believes that if evolution by natural selection is detectable by science why posit a designer that isn’t?
For one thing, science doesn't detect natural selection as Dawkins posits it. For Dawkins, natural selection is entirely unguided, without purpose, intention or direction. But as even atheist Elliot Sober points out, science does not and cannot show this. The result is you're left with an evolutionary process, but science doesn't show you whether this process is guided or not. You see this problem expanded to a lot of scientific territory: there's this constant claim that "science disproves religious claims!" when in reality it usually A) doesn't, B) disproves only a narrow claim, or C) actually supports a religious claim (see the debates over fine tuning, cosmology, quantum physics, etc.)
Science is disproving the Christian religion and instead of giving it up, we are constantly having to modify it. If the faith was true, science would have confirmed and approved it as such. I don’t have a problem with Adam and Eve being created as primitive by God and then evolving to what we are now. I may not even have a problem with the rest of life being evolved from primitive ancestors according to their kinds. I do have a problem with us being descended by ape-like creatures. This shows that we were not a special intention by God.
Again, that doesn't show we're not a special intention by God - that's a constant refrain from some people, but it simply does not logically follow. What's more, the idea that 'if the religion were true, science should show as much' is flawed since it assumes A) that the most relevant and central religious claims are scientific ones, and B) that a religion's validity means 'never being wrong'. You seem to actually not think B, since you're talking about an openness, but you're drawing the line in the sand over descent from apes. I think that's a big mistake, especially how you're putting it.nullasalus
August 30, 2012
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JLAfan:
Just out of curiosity, what is your belief when it comes to the programmer?
That there was at least one. But that isn't a belief. That is an inference.
I know that you don’t believe in molecules to man so how did the programmer program nature to give birth to mankind?
Actually I know, not believe, that there isn't any way to scientifically test the premise of molecules to man evolution via any mechanism. But I do NOT categorically deny the possibility given a design scenario. As a matter of fact I would say that is the only way such a thing would be possible. BTW the designer has been scientifically detected.Joe
August 30, 2012
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JLAfan2001: Your comments in 42 indicate that you have not been listening to me with full attention, or else have not understood what I have said to you. You write: "Science is disproving the Christian religion and instead of giving it up, we are constantly having to modify it." I took great pains to indicate that science is not "disproving the Christian religion," but could be a threat only to the shallow, spiritually defective, anti-intellectual literalism-inerrantism that you, in your lack of historical and theological knowledge, have *mistaken* for the Christian religion. If you give up Christianity because of "science" -- and you have indicated that you are about to do so -- the cause will not be any defect of Christianity, but a defect in yourself, a spiritual and intellectual laziness which disinclines you to search for deeper and more satisfying versions of Christianity, even when others have offered you help in that search. Your phrase "The big difference between ID and evolution" shows that you are still mixing up categories. ID is opposed to Darwinism, not "evolution." You are confusing a process (evolution) with various explanations of the process (design on the one hand, random mutations plus natural selection on the other). Your problem is that you are trying to think these difficult matters out without having done any of the necessary study, either on the science side or the theology side. I can't insert into your head the necessary scientific or theological understanding. You have to do that yourself. When you have convinced me, by the quality of your discussion, that you have read the two books I have suggested -- Dawkins's The Blind Watchmaker and Behe's Darwin's Black Box -- I will respond to you further on the science. When you have convinced me, by the quality of your discussion, that you have been reading essays by C. S. Lewis and other Christians whose thought has some sophistication, I will respond to you further on the theology. Until then, I simply cannot invest the time trying to straighten out your confusions as you think out loud, improvising as you go along. Your internet handle suggests that you are a reader of comic books. If you want to understand serious questions of science and theology, I suggest that you invest your reading time in library books instead.Timaeus
August 30, 2012
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Regarding Gregory's remarks at 39: Gregory appears to have done a volte-face on Adam and Eve. At various times, and publically, Gregory has refused to defend the conception of Adam and Eve which Vincent Torley promotes here. Gregory, both here and on BioLogos, has been given many chances to affirm clearly -- against the population geneticists of BioLogos and many other TEs -- that *Adam and Eve were the sole genetic parents of the entire present-day human race*, and every time he has been given that chance, has either ducked the question, or else has stated or implied that Christianity doesn't require actual *biological parentage* of the whole race by Adam and Eve, but only that Adam and Eve were real historical people. But Vincent's position is clear: the Catholic Church has always taught monogenism -- Adam and Eve were *the sole biological parents of the race*. And Gregory now endorses this position without reservation. What changed your mind, Gregory? You may reply that you have not changed your mind, and you may point to your many aggressive objections on BioLogos against its doctrine of Adam and Eve. But a close study of your objections there indicates that your opposition to BioLogos was based on your charge that BioLogos was denying a "real, historical, Adam and Eve." Yet this was not the case. Denis Alexander sketched some scenarios where Adam and Eve were real individuals, a pair of hominids "adopted" by God to become "federal heads" of the future human race, but were not the sole parents of the entire human race. And Darrel Falk made it clear that, in opposition to Denis Lamoureux, BioLogos made room for the possibility of a "real, historical Adam and Eve" -- while also making it clear that scientific biology has disproved the existence of an Adam and Eve understood as the sole parents of the entire race. You at the time loudly insisted upon a "real, historical Adam and Eve" -- which BioLogos (in contrast with Lamoureux) did not deny -- but you did *not* at any time disagree with the BioLogos conclusion (driven by population genetics) that Adam and Eve could not have been the sole genetic parents of the entire human race. You were notified of your apparent acquiescence to BioLogos population genetics at the time, by one or more posters on BioLogos, and you were later notified of the same, by me here on UD. You were informed of the contradiction between the BioLogos "settled genetic science" and the traditional Christian understanding of Adam and Eve. But even after being so informed, at no point did you take the opportunity to say: "Ayala, Venema, Falk, and Alexander have all made erroneous population genetics calculations. There could have been a single couple, within the past 100,000 years, that was the sole source of all the genes currently existing in the human population." But you sidestepped the biological disagreement. Perhaps you were afraid to take on the biologist-TEs, given your usual deference to them in all matters pertaining to genetics and organic evolution. But whatever the reason, you issued no challenge to their scientific conclusions. You complained that their religious view was unorthodox, while leaving their science unchallenged. Yet, as was clearly explained to you, if their science is correct, the traditional view of Adam and Eve *cannot* be true. If I am wrong, show me passages where, when asked by me here, or by others on BioLogos, you stated unambiguously that Adam and Eve were *the sole genetic parents of the entire human race* -- and therefore, by implication, that the population genetics calculations of Ayala, Alexander, Venema, Falk, etc. were *wrong*. The moment you show me the unambiguous statements from your pen, I will retract my statement about your past views. Until then, I maintain that your agreement with Vincent Torley above constitutes a sudden volte-face.Timaeus
August 30, 2012
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Joe “Do the hands of the programmer guide the programs running your computer? Is there a programmer inside doing the spellchecking?” Just out of curiosity, what is your belief when it comes to the programmer? I know that you don’t believe in molecules to man so how did the programmer program nature to give birth to mankind? Vjtorley I’m not a biology student by any means so some of this stuff goes over my head. What exactly are neutral mutations? Also, when I look around the internet it seems a lot of Gauger’s stuff is in question. If you believe in common descent then man was not a special creation. Why should God give a fig about a bunch of smart evolved monkeys? Timaeus The big difference between ID and evolution is that the designer can’t be scientifically detected. Dawkins believes that if evolution by natural selection is detectable by science why posit a designer that isn’t? In terms of casting my Christian net wider, this brings me back to my original view. Science is disproving the Christian religion and instead of giving it up, we are constantly having to modify it. If the faith was true, science would have confirmed and approved it as such. I don’t have a problem with Adam and Eve being created as primitive by God and then evolving to what we are now. I may not even have a problem with the rest of life being evolved from primitive ancestors according to their kinds. I do have a problem with us being descended by ape-like creatures. This shows that we were not a special intention by God. BTW, what are you theistic believes concerning God? Actually, may I ask what everyone’s personal beliefs are ?JLAfan2001
August 30, 2012
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'Therefore the rib taken from him was not a rib but rather a organ for this self reproducing ability and from it woman was made.' How about a kind of gender-modified cloning, Robert, rather than an organ? I'm not sure I see why you think Adam would have thought of reproducing, whatever God had in mind. Your point in the same connection, in your concluding sentence would make sense, as well, wouldn't it? 'Its a healthy option to me and would make us special in nature as the rest of nature was made male and female.' I see your point about Adam not needing a beard. Perhaps we were more androgenous before the Fall, as well as before Eve and the Flood, which would be consistent with my conjecture. What is fascinating, as well, though, is how differently Adam and Eve might have thought. We seem to have different psychological inheritances, male and female, certainly a product of nurture, but probably, also, of nature, right from the beginning. A point that has occurred to me about body hair as an insulator: why don't Eskimos have luxuriant beards? Do they have any? Or is it a holdover from migrations from Asia, not having yet ... dare I say it.. 'evolved'? Reverting to the Genesis account, I wonder if the narrative is simply a way of making more vivid for us what God would have always had in mind (designed) for Adam and ourselves. Incidentally, re tjguy's objection, Christ often cured people of physical sickness by casting out devils, but it is clear that sickness is seldom a punishment for personal sin, but for the Original Sin we all inherit. However, it is interesting that, health-wise - and one of the key messages of the Faith is that true strength is passive - women tend to be stronger than men. When my mother worked as a nurse at the Children's Hospital (I forget where), if they heard that a newborn baby was struggling to survive, they'd ask, 'Is it a boy or a girl?' And if it was a girl, they'd often say, 'She'll survive.'Axel
August 30, 2012
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I still don't understand from the original post, does vjtorley think that Adam and Eve literally existed and are the ancestors of all modern humans?timothya
August 30, 2012
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vjtorley, It is interesting that you cite Robin Collins as he used to be affiliated with Discovery Institute, but left "due to conflicting visions." His ultimate rejection of Intelligent Design theories doesn't seem to figure in your support of his 'catholic' position re: Adam and Eve. Timaeus has defended a murky position here regarding Adam and Eve in the past. Elsewhere he has spoken directly against 'real, historical Adam and Eve.' This is documented in the public record. I support your views, vjtorley, which affirm the historicity of Adam and Eve according to the teachings of the Church. These views, however, have nothing to do with 'Intelligent Design' theory in so far as it deals with origins of life and origins of biological information. If you are suggesting that Intelligent Design theory properly relates to human origins, please express yourself accordingly. "I intend to show below that the Catholic Church is still committed to the view that the human race is descended from a single original pair, Adam and Eve, and from nobody else." - vjtorley Amen. p.s. in 2000 I met Kenneth Kemp; quite an insightful, clever, scholarly and devout fellow!Gregory
August 30, 2012
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Timaeus, Thank you for your very thoughtful remarks. I quite agree with you that the satisfaction and penal substitution theories of the Atonement are both unsatisfactory: I don't like them either. I much prefer Robin Collins' theory of the Atonement, which you can find here. It has affinities with the Moral Exemplar theory of Peter Abelard. It also has roots in the writings of the Greek Fathers Origen, Athanasius, and Irenaeus. I'd also recommend this short post by former atheist Jennifer Fulwiler, here.vjtorley
August 29, 2012
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nullasalus, Thank you for your post. I'd like to address what I see as the essential points. 1. Kemp, in his paper, Science, Theology and Monogenesis speaks of Adam and Eve's non-rational contemporaries as "biologically human": on page 232, he calls them "their merely biologically human ancestors and cousins." A creature that's biologically human has a human body, by definition. But according to Kemp, these creatures lacked rational souls. Therefore, according to Kemp's logic, the rational soul cannot be the essential form of the human body - which contradicts the declaration of the ecumenical Council of Vienne that the rational soul is essentially the form of the human body. (I'm not saying that Kemp's personal views are unorthodox, but I do think that his hypothetical scenario, taken to its logical conclusion, goes against Church teaching.) You argue that for Kemp, "biologically human" is defined in terms of inter-fertility with rational human beings, and you add that "fertility does not require Kemp to maintain that these precursors had 'the human form' in the relevant sense." I find this statement of yours very confusing. When you say "the human form," you obviously cannot be referring to the human soul, since Kemp himself acknowledges that it was absent in these sub-rational hominids. Alternatively, if by "form" you mean "visible shape" then you must be talking about the human body. But Kemp himself describes these hominids as "biologically human" (p. 232) - which presumably means they must have looked like us. Or are you hypothesizing that they didn't look like us, but were genetically close enough to us to be able to inter-breed with us? But if that's what you're proposing, then you should be aware that Kemp expressly rejects this view on pages 230-231 of his article, where he discusses a scenario proposed in 1964 by Andrew Alexander, C. J., in which he posits one final mutation in our hominid ancestors, which did not create any reproductive barriers, but which made the body suitable to receive a rational human soul. Alexander proposes that this mutation spread quickly through the population of hominids, and that hominids lacking the mutation quickly died out. But that's not Kemp's view. Kemp rejects it, writing:
"...[H]is [Alexander's] emphasis on genetics (a crucial mutation) may be misplaced. It creates for him the necessity to posit a not impossible but extremely unlikely co-occurrence of exactly two instances of the same mutation (one in a man and one in a woman) at roughly the same time." (p. 231)
(As an aside: this is a very secular objection on Kemp's part. God can engineer mutations whenever He likes, and engineering two simultaneous ones is no problem for Him.) The account preferred by Kemp goes as follows:
That account can begin with a population of about 5,000 hominids, beings which are in many respects like human beings, but which lack the capacity for intellectual thought. Out of this population, God selects two and endows them with intellects by creating for them rational souls, giving them at the same time those preternatural gifts the possession of which constitutes original justice. (pp. 231-232)
For Kemp, it seems that the hominids lacking rational souls who inter-bred with Adam and Eve were physically indistinguishable from us. Therefore they must have had human bodies - which brings us back to the declaration of the Council of Vienne, ruling out this scenario. My own view, by the way, is that there was a final mutation in the human line, which created a barrier to reproduction, inhibiting mating between Adam and Eve and their hominid contemporaries. There are three changes in particular, which may have coincided with the emergence of Homo erectus, 2,000,000 years ago: first, a change from 48 chromosomes per body cell to 46, which occurred somewhere between 740,000 and 3,000,000 years ago and may well have coincided with the appearance of Homo erectus 2,000,000 years ago; second, a massive increase in the number of sweat glands (enabling our ancestors to run long distances in pursuit of prey, without getting over-heated), which probably occurred at the time when our ancestors acquired smooth, hairless skin, which Homo ergaster/erectus is believed to have had; and third, a total loss of body hair (which would have also helped our ancestors to radiate excess body heat), a process which was fully completed by 1,200,000 years ago at the latest. The sudden change in chromosome number would have hindered (but not totally prevented) inter-breeding between humans with 46 chromosomes and other hominids, who had 48. I would tentatively suggest that if the other changes (a profusion of sweat glands and a loss of body hair) occurred at the same time, they may well have rendered Homo erectus individuals sexually unattractive to other non-rational hominids, creating a pre-copulatory barrier to reproduction. That's my theory; it's probably wrong, but I'll continue to embrace it until I see a better one. 2. As for the morality of incest versus what you call "sex with the physically near-human": once again, the fact that an animal is "near-human" in its appearance doesn't affect the morality of the act one whit. Bestiality is wrong in a generic sense: it's sex with the wrong kind of creature - a non-human animal. It is an essentially wrong act. Incest is not essentially wrong, so its wickedness is less radical. It is a profoundly anti-social act, but in a small population where the only human society is one's immediate family, this objection would no longer be relevant. Incest is only morally revolting if there are moral alternatives to incest, which the individuals concerned spurned. Mating with the wrong kind of creature is not a moral alternative. 3. In citing Genesis, I was endeavoring to show that polygenism of any flavor (including Kemp's) doesn't gel well with the Genesis narrative. Of course one can propose (as you do) that the near-human hominids had died out before the worldwide Flood (which I don't believe in anyway, as a global event, although of course I do accept the reality of Noah). One can suggest that sub-rational hominids who saw Cain might have wanted to kill him, simply because they didn't like the look of him. And of course, it is extremely unlikely that Adam named every living thing on the planet. The point I wanted to make, however, is that according to the Genesis narrative, God made everything according to its kind, and for Adam, a creature's being "flesh of my flesh, and bone of my bone" was a sufficient criterion for its being one of his kind. There's no room in the Genesis narrative for creatures of the same flesh as Adam, but of a different nature. That would be imputing to the author of Genesis a dualism which is utterly foreign to the narrative. You suggest that according to Kemp, "Eve really was mother of all the living, insofar as she was the mother of all rational humans." But the same thing could be said of many non-rational female contemporaries of Eve. So it seems that according to Kemp, Eve was merely a mother of all the living, rather than "the mother," as in Genesis 3:20 - unless you want to parse "the mother," as "the only rational mother," which is adding words to the text that aren't there. Finally, I don't think the arguments from Genesis are absolutely decisive. Personally, I think Romans 5:12 creates a much weightier difficulty for polygenism than Genesis. All I wished to show is that Kemp is driving a square peg into a round hole, with his exegesis. It's a very awkward fit with the whole tenor of the narrative. Peace.vjtorley
August 29, 2012
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For the record, let me say something with regards to Timaeus' views. I'm, obviously, pretty firmly entrenched with the Catholic view on these matters, including the reality of a historical Adam and Eve, though admittedly with some leeway on the strict particulars. So right off the bat I disagree with Timaeus on this issue. On the other hand, I also don't think Timaeus' view should be dismissed out of hand, and I'm also not very convinced by arguments about how such and such interpretation is the interpretation upon which Christianity stands or falls, save for the existence and nature of Christ and His resurrection, God's existence, etc. As I said, with regards to origins, I think there's plenty of good reason to accept the reasonableness of multiple views, even if we disagree on said views personally.nullasalus
August 29, 2012
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Axel Facial hair in men is not equal depending on the identity. Facial hair probably did not exist with Adam. Its probably only a post flood adaptation of people to keep themselves dry. Human facial hair is triggered by the need to keep us dry and not warm. This is why at puberty we get hair in our armpits etc. the body just, back in the day and still in gear, recognized important episodic sweating as needing to be dried up. Being dry is important in nature to stay warm. Adam had no beard or ever could. Interesting point about Adam and feminine traits. I speculate here carefully but it has occured to me that possibly Adam was not fully manly when created. my reason is because until Eve came he seemed to have no hint that he was to get a female counterpoint as was obvious in the animal kingdom. This suggests, carefully, that he therefore didn't anticipate a female because he could self reproduce. Therefore the rib taken from him was not a rib but rather a organ for this self reproducing ability and from it woman was made. Its a healthy option to me and would make us special in nature as the rest of nature was made male and female.Robert Byers
August 29, 2012
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StephenB, Vincent: As you guys know by now, I'm not Catholic, but have the greatest respect for the Catholic tradition. And I'm not a Thomist, but I find much of value in the Thomist tradition, which when applied rightly is of great value in demolishing modern irrationality in theology, philosophy, and ethics. The luminous argumentation of Aquinas is a breeze of fresh air compared to the pompous, obscure, irrationalist crap (there is no polite word for it) issued by Teilhard de Chardin, and the Natural Law tradition in Catholic ethics has been a major bulwark against the forces that have caused mainstream Protestantism to slide into moral anarchy. I praise both of you when you present accurate historical information about what Thomas Aquinas and about Catholic teaching. Whether one accepts or rejects Thomas, or accepts or rejects Catholic teaching, one must first know the position one is accepting or rejecting. Nonetheless, my own view -- to be sure a historically heretical one (which does not make it false) -- has long been that no Christian author, church, or confession has ever got Genesis 2-3 completely right, so I don't feel bound to accept the Roman interpretation, the Genevan interpretation, or the Augustinian interpretation which underlies them both. As for Paul, that's a complicated question. His remarks on Adam and Christ are extremely brief and appear in only a very small portion of his writings. I don't doubt that he personally envisioned a historical Adam and Eve, but to me his Adam/Christ parallel is pure midrashic interpretation, and the literal-minded "satisfaction" and "penal substitution" doctrines of Atonement which Rome and Geneva later built upon that interpretation were huge errors in Christian thought. I also think that historically the satisfaction and penal substitution theories have been major causes of atheism -- and I think our friend JLAfan2001 is in danger of becoming the next casualty of such interpretations. I can't defend all of that in a forum like this -- I would need several scholarly papers to do it. All I can say here is that I don't think Paul was "wrong" about Adam and Christ, but rather that his teaching was misinterpreted by many later theologians.Timaeus
August 29, 2012
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torley,
Is Kemp a polygenist? Well, he certainly is one of sorts.
He's not a polygenist with regards to the origin of the human race. According to his view, humanity had two human parents - Adam and Eve. Other varieties of polygenism simply aren't a concern if they don't impact this.
However, Professor Kemp maintains that Adam and Eve had “biologically human ancestors” (p. 232), who belonged to a “biologically (i.e., genetically) human species” (p. 231), so it seems that he must therefore hold that these pre-Adamite hominids had human bodies; yet he also says that these hominids lacked rational souls – which in turn implies that the rational soul is not essentially the form of the human body.
Respectfully, I think you're misreading him on this point. "Biologically/genetically human", with regards to Kent's classification, first and foremost deals with the ability to produce fertile offspring, and therefore converging genetic lines. Such fertility does not require Kemp to maintain that these precursors had "the human form" in the relevant sense.
I am amazed that you don’t see much of a difference in the “yuck factor” between incest and bestiality. One involves mating with a human being which is forbidden because the ties of blood are too close; while the other involves mating with a sub-rational animal. There’s simply no contest. Bestiality is much, much more disordered as an act.
And I disagree with your assessment, especially considering just what the 'bestiality' is in this case. Whether in the classic understanding of Genesis, your understanding, or mine, what we have going on is a grave violation of the norm for a particular case - incest in one case, sex with the physically near-human in the other. To put it another way, both acts, under normal circumstances, would be called disordered - gravely disordered. But these weren't normal circumstances, even in the traditional understanding.
St. Augustine explains here why incest was justified in case of necessity, but adds that it would be abominable in other situations.
I have great respect for Augustine, of course. But like Aquinas, he can be wrong about some things. I don't deny his incest explanation - I just happen to think that the scenario Kemp and company outline is also quite acceptable. That Augustine didn't think of it doesn't concern me.
Since the “biologically human” contemporaries of Adam whose existence is hypothesized by Kemp would have been of a different kind than himself, what did Adam call them? He couldn’t have called them humans, for that was the name of his kind. He must have therefore regarded them as being of another kind, and as less than human. But if he regarded them in this way, then he could not at the same time have regarded them as suitable mating partners. That was my point.
Honestly, Torley, I think you're reading so much into the passage and hypothesizing so much that I don't really take this too seriously as an objection. Genesis, the relevant portions, is shockingly close on detail, and very suggestive of alternate scenarios. Trying to psychoanalyze Adam during the naming act (Also, I'd ask, do YOU think Adam named literally everything on the planet at the time?) is just so difficult.
owever, my point in citing Genesis 6:19 was that the Flood story creates a similar dilemma: any “biologically human” creatures lacking a rational soul would had to have been taken on the Ark as beasts, in the Genesis story, which is absurd.
Who says any were left by that time? And who says 'any' would need to have been taken up, as opposed to two anyway? Again, this just doesn't seem serious. I think this is one of those issues where Christians would better be served admitting the space for reasonable disagreement.nullasalus
August 29, 2012
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JLAfan2001: I don't want to force my advice on you; I just thought that you sounded personally troubled, and that I could give better advice out of the public ear, where we could talk less academically and in a more neighborly manner. If you have a gmail address that conceals your identity, and would post it here, I'll contact you via a gmail address of my own. But if you don't feel the need of someone's ear to bend, then don't worry about it. I didn't mean to be nosy; just thought I might be able to help. In answer to your question about Behe, he leaves it open whether God actually guides or steers the mutations, on the one hand, or "preprograms" the whole evolutionary process, on the other, so that the results fall out naturally, but are far from random. So it might be done with or without "interventions." But either way, there is a design that God is following, a design that would not be achieved by the unguided and unplanned process that genuine, uncompromising Darwinians envision. Dawkins thinks that no design is necessary because natural selection is an adequate "designer-substitute." I can't make the difference between them any simpler for you. If you want more detail, read *The Blind Watchmaker* by Dawkins and *Darwin's Black Box* by Behe. They are both well-written books, very clear, and logically coherent in their positions. I'd advise anyone trying to learn about Darwinism vs. ID for the first time to start with those two books. On Christianity and the Bible, let me be clear that I am not claiming to represent any Christian tradition in its pure form. I'm not asking you to adopt *my* understanding of Christianity. I'm merely pointing out that there are *many* understandings of Christianity, and that the literalist-inerrantist Protestant tradition you seem to be reacting against is only one of them. Behe, for example, is a devout Roman Catholic, and Polkinghorne is an Anglican priest. Neither one of them has experienced any faith crisis caused by not reading every word of Genesis as an accurate historical narrative. C. S. Lewis, one of the greatest conservative evangelical writers, did not interpret every detail in Genesis as a news report. I'm saying you might be more successful in finding an integrated Christian vision of life if you would cast your net a bit wider, look at the various Christian options out there. I can help you with that insofar as I have studied the Christian tradition academically for a few decades now, know the Biblical languages, have attended churches of many different denominations, and have family roots ranging from Catholic to Baptist, as well as broad theological sympathies for elements from the Eastern Orthodox churches and even from Judaism. There is a rich world of faith out there, and not all of it is in conflict with science or history due to statements made in Genesis. I'd be happy to point you to some of this richer world, and then leave you to explore it and make your own judgments. In answer to your final questions, I'll say: one can believe that the Bible is true in all that it teaches, while disagreeing with inerrantism/fundamentalism over *what* it is that it teaches. Certainly the Roman Church, for example, does not require understanding every detail of the Garden story as a news report; as the current Catholic catechism states, there are figurative elements in the story. As for the Fall and Original Sin etc., these things are not interpreted in the same way by all Christian theologians; for more information on this you can read the classic study of John Hick, *Evil and the God of Love*, and follow that up by reading various more recent works on the subject. It's *not* a question of having to throw out the baby just because you throw out the bathwater. The literalist-inerrantists would have you believe otherwise, but in my view they are wrong, and I'd hate to see you become another Bart Ehrman because you were posed the same lousy alternatives that he was posed by his stunted religious upbringing. Best wishes.Timaeus
August 29, 2012
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StephenB, Thank you for your kind comments. I'm glad you enjoyed my post. Timaeus, I agree with you that polygenism certainly isn't a make-or-break issue for ID. However, for people who are committed to the inspiration and inerrancy of every portion of Scripture (as Catholics, the Orthodox and many Protestants are), the historicity of Adam and Eve is a pertinent issue, vis-a-vis the findings of modern science.vjtorley
August 29, 2012
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