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Does Bayesian Fuzziness Add to the Analysis?

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In comment 30 to this post Elizabeth Liddle writes:

I can think of lots of ways of testing specific design hypotheses, but they all involve a hypothesis involving a postulated designer. And IDists insist that this is irrelevant – that “Design detection” should only involve the observed pattern, not any hypothesis about the designer. This is ludicrous, frankly.

Let’s explore one of Lizzie’s prior forays into design detection, and we’ll leave it up to the onlookers to decide which side is “ludicrous.”

In a prior post I posed the following question to Dr. Liddle:

If you were to receive a radio signal from outer space that specified the prime numbers between 1 and 100 would you conclude (provisionally pending the discovery a better theory, of course) that the best theory to account for the data is ‘the signal was designed and sent by an intelligent agent?’

Dr. Liddle responded:

Yes. And I’ve explained why.

She expanded on her explanation:

Barry, I did NOT make the inference ‘based upon nothing but the existence of CSI’!

My inference had nothing to do with CSI.

It was a Bayesian inference based on two priors:

My priors concerning the probability that other parts of the universe host intelligent life forms capable of sending radio signals (high)

My priors concerning the probability that a non-intelligent process might generate such a signal (low).

Dr. Liddle’s problem can be summarized as follows:

1.  Denying the design inference based on the prime number sequence is not an option.  The inference is so glaringly obvious that to deny it would be absurd.  Even arch-atheist Carl Sagan admitted this signal was obviously designed (when he used it as the basis of his book “Contact”).  Therefore, were Dr. Liddle to deny the obvious design inference she would instantly lose all credibility.

2.  So she asks herself:  “How can I admit the design inference while continuing to deny the methods of ID proponents?”

3.  Her solution:   “I know.  I’ll admit the design inference but cover up my admission with Bayesian fuzziness, and that will obscure the fact that I used the methods of the ID proponents while I continue to denounce those very methods.”

Notice how Dr. Liddle’s Bayesian “priors” add absolutely nothing to the design detection methods advocated by ID proponents.  Here is a graph of the explanatory filter:

Explanatory Filter

Let’s run the prime number sequence through the explanatory filter to see how.

1.  We observe an event (i.e. a radio signal specifying the prime numbers between 1 and 100).

2.  Is it highly contingent?  Yes.  We can exclude mechanical necessity.

3.  Is it highly complex and specified?  Yes.  We can exclude chance.

4.  The best explanation for the data:  Design.

Now let’s see if Dr. Liddle’s Bayesian analysis adds anything to what we already have.

Prior 1:  Estimate of the probability that other parts of the universe host intelligent life forms capable of sending radio signals:  High

It is obvious that one’s prior estimate of the probability of the existence of intelligent life forms in other parts of the universe is utterly irrelevant to the design inference.  How do I know?  By supposing the exact opposite of course.  Let’s assume that a person believes there is practically zero chance that other parts of the universe have intelligent life (as we have seen on this site, there is very good reason to believe this).  If that person were to receive this signal he would have to revise his conclusion, because the signal is obviously designed.

We see, therefore, that whether one’s Bayesian prior regarding the probability of the existence of intelligence life forms is 0% or 100% makes absolutely no difference to the design inference.  From this we conclude that Dr. Liddle’s first prior adds nothing to the analysis.

Prior 2:  Estimate of the probability that a non-intelligent process might generate such a signal:  Low

This, of course, is the explanatory filter by another name.  How do we know that the probability that a non-intelligent process might generate such a signal is low?  Because it is highly continent, complex and specified.

It is important to see two things:

1.  When Dr. Liddle correctly inferred design from the prime number sequence she had one and only one data point:  A radio signal specifying the primes between 1 and 100.

2.  Dr. Liddle knew nothing about the provenance of the radio signal.  In other words she made a design inference based on nothing but the pattern itself while knowing absolutely nothing about the designer.  When she made her design inference she did not first make a hypothesis based on the “postulated designer,” for the simple reason that there was not a scintilla of data upon which to base that hypothesis other than the pattern itself.

Conclusion:  Though she tried to cover it up with Bayesian fuzziness, Dr. Liddle did the very thing she now says is “ludicrous.”

 

 

 

Comments
Hi CentralScrutinizer,
OK, let’s say we create an organization, and call it, “SIDA”, the Search for Intelligently Designed Artifacts, whose mission is finding the effects of human-like intelligence no matter where it comes from, whether outer space or earth. SIDA is not interested in explaining the origin of the creators of any of the artifacts it finds. SIDA has adopted the same criterion for detection of intelligently design artifacts, such as narrowband signals, and coded information.
We agree that we're not trying to figure out what caused the cause of these things we observe, but rather simply what caused the observed things (DNA, flagella, narrowband signals, etc) themselves. The problem with "SIDA" is that it assumes that anything which produces things that are similar to what humans produce is going to be "human-like". The point I am trying to make is that we have no way of knowing in what ways the cause is "human-like" and in what ways it is not. For that reason, we learn precisely nothing by labelling the cause "human-like" or "intelligent". If instead we determined that there was a high probability that the cause of what we observe was a complex form of life as we know it, then we at least gain some real knowledge of what the cause was. So, if ID was about finding extra-terrestrial life forms that may have designed life on Earth, then ID would not be a vacuous endeavor (it would simply fail for lack of evidence). As it is, however, the hypothesis of ID is empy of scientific meaning, because we would have no idea what observable attributes ought to be associated with the hypothetical cause of what we observe.
If SETI finds a signal with coded information, given no plausible “natural” explanation, and given that coded information systems are known products of intelligence,...
This statement is itself highly misleading. "Intelligence" does not produce anything, of course, any more than "beauty" or "strength" or "athleticism" or "determination" produces things. It is just idiomatic use of language where we reify these attributes and say these attributes cause things. In fact, it is human beings that cause things, not their abstract characteristics. Here is my point in a nutshell: Saying that a complex life form produced something (e.g. a narrowband signal or DNA) has meaning. Saying that a human being produced it adds a tremendous amount of specific meaning. Saying that it was produced by something with "understanding of nature, foresight, and intent" is meaningful, but can't be ascertained simply by looking at the result - it must be ascertained by interacting with the thing (organism, entity, process, system, whatever) that is supposed to have these attributes. Saying only that it was produced "by intelligence" is meaningless.
RDF: Nothing observable follows from saying something is “intelligent”. CS: I would look for effects that it had an understanding of nature, foresight, and intent, since that’s my definition of intelligence. Narrowband signals and coded information systems are two candidates. If it did, I would put it in my, “”it is likely, given what we know, that this was designed by a human-like intelligence.” How is this vacuous?
I've already said that the jooba does not produce narrowband signals or coded information. Still, I assure you that the jooba is intelligent. If the term "intelligence" was scientifically meaningingful, it would refer to something that can be somehow characterized in terms of observables. So I ask you again, tell me one thing that I ought to be able to observe about this jooba given that it is intelligent. But there is nothing, of course, that you can tell me about the jooba! Not one single thing. Can it ride a bike? Play guitar? Solve a crossword puzzle? Hunt a bear? Read a book? Dam up a river? Grow a crop of corn? Write a novel? Come up with a philosophical argument against abortion? Play a video game? Write a song? Flirt with a woman? Find the acorns it hid last fall? You have no way of knowing which of these things - if any - may be true of the jooba. And for the very same reason, when ID says that the cause of biological complexity is "intelligent", it is a completely vacuous statement.
But archaeology and forensic science don’t merely analyze the results of human actions. They look at putative effects and compare those to a set of criteria, namely, what is known about human actions. SETI and SIDA are analagous. In all cases, they is looking at a putative artifact and comparing it against a set of criteria.
When archaeologists declare they've discovered an "artifact", we immediately know a great deal about the cause of the artifact, simply because the cause was a human being and we know a lot about human beings. When a forensic scientist declares some event was caused by a "suspect", we likewise know a lot about what sort of thing we're looking for: A human being. If SETI found a narrowband signal and some theorist declared it was likely sent by an "a civilization of extra-terrestrial life forms", we would know something about what was being suggested (they likely lived on temperate with liquid water, built electrical power generation facilities, etc etc). In contrast, if SIDA found some putative artifact and some theorist declared it was produced by "something intelligent", it would tell us nothing whatsoever beyong what we already know - it somehow produced the artifact in question! Likewise when ID says the cause of biological complexity is "intelligent", it is saying nothing at all about what we could observe to be true about the cause. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
July 28, 2013
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RDFish, I would have to agree that there is a difference between SETI and ID: that SETI is looking for signs of intelligence (effects of entities that have human-like properties), and ID is trying to explain the origin of life on Earth. OK, let's say we create an organization, and call it, "SIDA", the Search for Intelligently Designed Artifacts, whose mission is finding the effects of human-like intelligence no matter where it comes from, whether outer space or earth. SIDA is not interested in explaining the origin of the creators of any of the artifacts it finds. SIDA has adopted the same criterion for detection of intelligently design artifacts, such as narrowband signals, and coded information. If SETI finds a signal with coded information, given no plausible "natural" explanation, and given that coded information systems are known products of intelligence, they can reasonably put that in the category of the "this is likely, given what we know, that this was designed by a human-like intelligence." This can spur on some effort to communicate with the origin of the signal. Lacking any information about the source of the signal, we cannot be sure any signal was produce by a human-like intelligence. Now, I put my microscope to Earth's DNA replicator and find is has a coded information system. Given no plausible "natural" explanation, even strong reasons to think that one cannot exist (lack of chemical affinities), and given that coded information systems are known products of intelligence, I can reasonably put that in the category of the "this is likely, given what we know, that this was designed by a human-like intelligence." This can spur on some effort to communicate with the origin of the system. Although, SIDA suffers from a disadvantage because we have no idea where to look for the source. Lacking any information about the source of the system, we cannot be sure the system was produce by a human-like intelligence. SETI and SIDA are essentially equivalent in nature, just different in scope. In addition to narrowband signals and coded information systems, if something like F/CSI analysis can eventually become a knock-out approach to discovering artifacts that are the products of human-like intelligence, then it would be a powerful tool in SETI's and SIDA's toolbox.
CS: If you tell me (given my definition) that jooba is intelligent, I would look at its effects and see if it produced coded information or narrowband radio signals. If it did, I would conclude that it had intelligence or was made by an intelligence. RD: I have a jooba here in my laboratory. I am telling you that this jooba is “intelligent”. Now, given that information, can you tell me one single thing that I can observe about this thing? If you ask me if it produces coded information or narrowband radio signals, I will tell you no, it does not (at least as far as I can tell). Can you tell me something – anything – about this jooba based on the fact that you know it is “intelligent”? You cannot, of course, because the term “intelligence” is scientifically vacuous, even given your own definition. Nothing observable follows from saying something is “intelligent”.
I would look for effects that it had an understanding of nature, foresight, and intent, since that's my definition of intelligence. Narrowband signals and coded information systems are two candidates. If it did, I would put it in my, ""it is likely, given what we know, that this was designed by a human-like intelligence." How is this vacuous?
RD to Joe: For the hundredth (thousandth?) time: Archaeology and forensic science analyze the results of human actions. That has nothing to do with trying to explain how biological systems originated.
But archaeology and forensic science don't merely analyze the results of human actions. They look at putative effects and compare those to a set of criteria, namely, what is known about human actions. SETI and SIDA are analagous. In all cases, they is looking at a putative artifact and comparing it against a set of criteria.CentralScrutinizer
July 28, 2013
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Hi Joe,
If the word “intelligence” is scientifically vacuous then archaeology and forensic science are both scientifically vacuous.
For the hundredth (thousandth?) time: Archaeology and forensic science analyze the results of human actions. That has nothing to do with trying to explain how biological systems originated. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
July 26, 2013
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If the word "intelligence" is scientifically vacuous then archaeology and forensic science are both scientifically vacuous. But then again RDFish's posts are scientifcally vacuous, so perhaps that is the whole problem...Joe
July 26, 2013
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Hi CS,
They put that under their biological section, not their space scanning section, but I don’t have a problem with it up to a point. “As we know it” implies just the sort of properties I have been saying with my definition of “intelligent.”
It also implies just the sort of properties I have been pointing out that are requisite for intelligent behavior: the complex form and function of nervous systems, sense organs, muscles, and so on - exactly the sorts of things that ID purports to explain in the first place.
If, in some sense, we turned out to be the “descendents” of some ETI it would not offend me in the least. It’s possible.
If that were the case, then ID would simply be false: Life on Earth would not be the result of intelligent design by these ET life forms, but rather it would be the product of their biological reproduction. There have been lots of folks who have suggested this in the past (Francis Crick, the Raelians, and so on) but the idea never caught on because there is no evidence that it is true.
But irrelevant to my point, which is, “intelligence” is not a vacuous term. Saying we’re looking for the effects of intelligence is not a vacuous statement.
Again, it is vacuous unless you provide a specific definition for the term, and it is scientifically meaningless unless something objectively observable is specified in the definition.
RDF: The explanation is vacuous without some specific definition. You have provided a specific definition (although it is not one that has been established as the technical definition associated with ID theory). CS: Neither has SETI established a technical definition, although they have specified some of it’s effects, e.g, “coded information”, “narrowband signals”, etc.
SETI is not obliged to provide a definition of "intelligence", because it is not attempting to explain anything by reference to the term. Biologists needn't provide a rigorous definition of "life" (also difficult), because there is no theory that invokes "life" as an explanation for anything. SETI and biology simply use the terms "intelligence" and "life", respectively, as descriptions of what they are looking for or studying, respectively.
But it’s pretty obvious what everyone has in mind. I think you know that. Same for ID.
Yes, what everyone has in mind is their own anthropomorphic projection of human minds. My point is that it is fallacious to imagine that just because human minds have certain properties (including consciousness) and can build complex machines, then anything which builds complex machines is likely to have those same properties. Again, if you concede that it is likely that the cause of life on Earth were complex organisms with complex sense organs, brains, and so on, then yes, it would be more likely that they experienced conscious thought like humans do. If that is what ID is arguing for, then it needs to say so, and we wouldn't have these debates - ID would just be another little cult that believes we came from aliens and doesn't answer where they came from. But ID refuses to limit itself to that hypothesis, because most ID folks believe that an immaterial, transcendent god is the intelligent being responsible. But that hypothesis is even worse, since there is nothing of the sort in our uniform and repeated experience.
I agree. We know about humans. We know they can make computers. And we know what proeprties they have that allows them to do so.
Brains, eyes, hands...
I’m not sure what exactly you disagree with, except your complaint that “intelligence” hasn’t been rigorously defined in some way you are satisfied with yet. However, it’s not stopping the SETI crowd, and I don’t see it as a serious objection, because I think “intelligence” is reasonably defined and understand by those looking for it.
Let us say that SETI finds a signal similar to what humans would transmit. We would infer that a civilization of life forms similar to humans was responsible, and that inference would provide a great deal of information about what we think regarding the cause of the signal: We could look for the temperate planet these beings lived on, look for the liquid water they needed to survive, the buildings they lived in, their electrical power generation facilities, the transportation systems they've constructed, agriculture and waste disposal facilities, communication infrastructures, spaceships, and so on. Now let us say that ID decides that terrestrial biological systems contain evidence that something has "designed" them. What does that inference tell us? Precisely nothing, because the term is vacuous without further qualification.
Bizarre. You rebuff me and then support what I’m saying in the same breath. Zero data points would be completely unsupported. You acknowledge that humans can do it. So that’s one data point in my favor. And that “data point” is one helluva “data point.”
??? My point was that one data point cannot support the inference you are trying to make: 1) Everything that produces CSI has conscious intent 2) Biological systems contain CSI 3) Therefore whatever produced biological systems had conscious intent You cannot assume that (1) is true simply on the basis that humans are conscious. Not only is your sample size too small (N=1!), but everything we know about how human beings manage to design things confirms that we require well-functioning complex brains in order to do it, so the very first biological CSI could not possibly have been produced by human-like thought processes.
RDF: So if you are going to try and reason that like effects have like causes, you end up with the hypothesis that whatever created DNA mechanisms in biological systems was something with a very complex brain. CS: You could be right. And if that turned out to be true, I would not be offended.
I'm glad you wouldn't be offended (by the way I think you're a very reasonable thinker), but that isn't my point. My point is that ID conflates two very different hypotheses: 1) Life on Earth came from complex life elsewhere (ID-ET theory) 2) Life on Earth came from something radically different from living things but could still think like human beings (ID-god theory) The problems with #1 are that (a) it doesn't answer where ET life originated, (b) it is simpler to assume we are their biological descendents rather than the products of their bioengineering, and (c) there is no evidence that ETs exist. The problems with #2 are that (a) we have no idea how anything could think like a human but without the benefit of a complex living brain/body, and (b) there is no evidence that any such thing exists. So, neither of these two hypotheses give us any reason to suppose they are correct.
But I think the thread that runs thru it all is that something with human-like (or better) understand of nature, foresight and intent, brought about the first DNA replicator system. Beyond that, I think it can get ugly.
I'm not sure it's "ugly" (I personally have no trouble with religious claims, as long as they don't aim to co-opt scientific status). But just saying that the cause of DNA replication systems had the sort of general conscious understanding, foresight and intent that human beings experience goes far, far beyond any evidence or supporting argument. One would expect that something with these attributes could explain their designs in grammatical language, design other sorts of things, play board games, understand romance and comedy, enjoy music, and generally have conscious beliefs and desires the way we do. But none of these expectations can possibly be tested against the evidence, and we have no reason at all to think any of them are true.
I’m not trying to convince you to accept any particular form or position of ID except to say that the idea of “intelligence” is not a vacuous source.
Since nothing specific follows from labelling something "intelligent", it is vacuous as an explanation.
RDF: You cannot, however, ascertain if the cause of living things likewise experiences these things. CS: Not yet. But looking for the signs is all we have to go on at this point.
In that case, you're saying that ID's hypothesis is not merely "design", but rather "something that had mental abilities and experiences similar to human beings". Moreover, you are conceding that as yet, ID has no evidence whatsoever for supporting its hypothesis.
OK, so, “coded information systems are only know to originate from entities that have understanding of nature, foresight and intent because of their complex brains.” These are “intelligent beings.” I have no problem with that.
Well, ok, but if ID was actually positing that life on Earth came from life elsewhere, we would not be on this forum debating the matter. The reason for the popularity of ID is because it comports with people's religious beliefs about a transcendent god, and if ID was actually about alien life forms, the majority of people who debate here wouldn't be interested.
It’s a search in an attempt find evidence supporting an implied conjecture: namely, that it is very likely that it takes a human-like intelligence to produce “coded information”, “narrowband signals”, and the like. Otherwise search for these things would be a waste of time.
No, the conjecture is that if complex living things evolved on Earth, they likely evolved on other Earth-like planets. And if complex living things here figured out how to transmit signals through space, so might other life forms. Again: If you're talking about complex life forms being responsible for DNA or SETI transmissions, then I understand what you are talking about. If you're talking about some unspecified type of "designer" being responsible for these things, then you have said nothing at all. If you say the designer had conscious awareness and intent, then you are saying something concrete, but without support and untestable.
Now, on earth, we’ve found coded information from a non-human source… in our own DNA replicator. It’s right there for all to see. Why is coded information a reason to suspect intelligence “out there” and but not “in here?” Particularly in light of lack of natural chemical affinities for the components. I think Meyers makes a strong case for this. Hardly, “unsupported” as you claim.
Either the source is a life form or it isn't. If ID posits a life form, it's just another "we came from aliens" hypothesis, like Crick's panspermia, that has been languishing with little attention for lack of any reason to believe it's true. And if ID posits something that isn't a life form but still has conscious intent, well, neither Meyer nor anyone else has provided any reason to think that any such thing can exist. People have talked about us coming from ETs, or from God, for a very long time, and ID brings nothing new to the debate. Continuing to prove that evolutionary theory doesn't account for biological complexity just tells us something I for one already know: We can't explain the origin of biological information. It doesn't tell us one single thing about what the answer might be.
Perhaps I misread what your intent here. I think I now know what you wanted. If you tell me (given my definition) that jooba is intelligent, I would look at its effects and see if it produced coded information or narrowband radio signals. If it did, I would conclude that it had intelligence or was made by an intelligence.
I have a jooba here in my laboratory. I am telling you that this jooba is "intelligent". Now, given that information, can you tell me one single thing that I can observe about this thing? If you ask me if it produces coded information or narrowband radio signals, I will tell you no, it does not (at least as far as I can tell). Can you tell me something - anything - about this jooba based on the fact that you know it is "intelligent"? You cannot, of course, because the term "intelligence" is scientifically vacuous, even given your own definition. Nothing observable follows from saying something is "intelligent". Cheers and thanks for the thoughtful discussion, RDFishRDFish
July 26, 2013
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RDFish: Human beings are complex living things, with sense organs, nervous systems, muscles, and other complex physical systems that enable us to perceive, store and retrieve memories, generate plans, and design and build other complex systems.
Right.
SETI does indeed assume that anything out there that might send us a signal is just this sort of thing – “life as we know it”.
They put that under their biological section, not their space scanning section, but I don't have a problem with it up to a point. "As we know it" implies just the sort of properties I have been saying with my definition of "intelligent." How they are implemented is another matter. I would expect that some entity with an understanding of nature, foresight, and intent, such as humans have, would have physical processes analogous to ours. But I wouldn't expect them to have neurons and synapses. However, I would not be surprised if they did. But it's beside the point. SETI is looking for the effects of intelligence, not the explanation of it. Same for ID.
But I think you’d agree that is what ID is “looking for”: If ID posits that extra-terrestrial complex life forms are the reason for complex biological systems on Earth, then we might as well assume we are simply descendents of those complex life forms, and not the products of its bioengineering!
If, in some sense, we turned out to be the "descendents" of some ETI it would not offend me in the least. It's possible. But irrelevant to my point, which is, "intelligence" is not a vacuous term. Saying we're looking for the effects of intelligence is not a vacuous statement.
The explanation is vacuous without some specific definition. You have provided a specific definition (although it is not one that has been established as the technical definition associated with ID theory).
Neither has SETI established a technical definition, although they have specified some of it's effects, e.g, "coded information", "narrowband signals", etc. But it's pretty obvious what everyone has in mind. I think you know that. Same for ID.
Think about it: How do you know that Joe the computer-maker possesses a conscious understanding of nature, and conscious foresight and intent? Answer: Because we know these things about human beings of course, and because Joe is a human being. If we knew nothing of what caused the computer, you could not make this inference.
I agree. We know about humans. We know they can make computers. And we know what proeprties they have that allows them to do so. We know we can make coded information and narrow band signals, and we know why. That's why SETI is looking for these effects, the effects of human-like intelligence. ID looks for those effects in earth's biology. I'm not sure what exactly you disagree with, except your complaint that "intelligence" hasn't been rigorously defined in some way you are satisfied with yet. However, it's not stopping the SETI crowd, and I don't see it as a serious objection, because I think "intelligence" is reasonably defined and understand by those looking for it.
CS: I think codes are a very strong indicator of intelligence as I define it. RD: That is a completely unsupported opinion. You have precisely one data point: human beings generate codes, and human beings have conscious intent. You cannot therefore conclude that anything that generates codes must likewise have conscious intent. The only thing we know of that has conscious intent requires a well-functioning brain in order to experience that – and brains are ridiculously complex organs, with more “CSI” that anything else we know of.
Bizarre. You rebuff me and then support what I'm saying in the same breath. Zero data points would be completely unsupported. You acknowledge that humans can do it. So that's one data point in my favor. And that "data point" is one helluva "data point." Humans are the only known source of novel coded information systems. (Earth's DNA replicators can replicate and pass on coded information, but they do not create novel systems. And its source is unknown.) We know the properties in humans that allows us to create coded information- why they can, and why they do do it. And it takes a very heavy bit of physical "machinery" (human brain) wired up a certain proposterously complex way to acheive it, and that it's the only known source. That plus the fact that no plausible mechansim or cause/necessity is even remotely in view, I stand by my opinion that at present coded information is a strong indicator. This could change, but so far I have no reason not to think so. These reasons are is why SETI thinks the signs of intelligence are worth searching for. We can agree to disagree on this. But it's far from an unsupported opinion.
So if you are going to try and reason that like effects have like causes, you end up with the hypothesis that whatever created DNA mechanisms in biological systems was something with a very complex brain.
You could be right. And if that turned out to be true, I would not be offended.
But again, ID doesn’t want to conclude that some complex life form created life on Earth. Rather, ID wants to reject that part of the inference.
I've never read that from any of the prominent ID writers, but you could be right. I, personally, would not necessarily "reject that part of the inference."
ID argues that even though the cause of life wasn’t itself a complex organism..
You could be right But I'm not familiar with such statements from the ID luminaries. Anyway, "ID" is like "Christianity", there is apparently lots of ideas about what that means. But I think the thread that runs thru it all is that something with human-like (or better) understand of nature, foresight and intent, brought about the first DNA replicator system. Beyond that, I think it can get ugly. I'm not trying to convince you to accept any particular form or position of ID except to say that the idea of "intelligence" is not a vacuous source. SETI is looking for effects of it, and so is ID. Whether or not any particular persons likes or dislikes the idea of a designer with a complex brain is beyond the scope of my interest. And if that proximate source of Earth's DNA replicator turns out to be a ET with a very big brain, that would not hurt my feelings whatsoever.
I agree that your definition is not vacuous: Your definition of intelligence is “having understanding of nature, foresight and intent”. Even though we do not understand how “foresight” or “understanding” works in human beings, I understand each of these attributes subjectively, because I consciously experience what we call understanding, planning, and intentions. You could also try to verify these attributes by asking me questions, or test that I can generate plans by giving me novel problems to solve.
I agree.
You cannot, however, ascertain if the cause of living things likewise experiences these things.
Not yet. But looking for the signs is all we have to go on at this point.
As we know it, “intelligence” is a property of complex living things. SETI is searching for this. If that is what ID is “searching for”, then ID has another set of problems, as I’ve explained above.
I don't see those as problems, but I see how others might see them as problems.
Only if ID is supposed to be taken seriously.
It seems to me that a lot of people take ID seriously, including myself. As for the scientific community at large, well, they have historically be on the slow end of things when it comes to paradigm shifts. I'm not worried about it. But we'll see.
You have provide one definition that is non-vacuous, but still cannot be operationalized in the context of ID. What you’ll find is that there is no definition that will meet ID’s objectives of being non-vacuous and objectively verifiable in the context of ID.
Sure I did. Coded information systems are only know to originate from entities that have understanding of nature, foresight and intent. You can add to that, "that stem from their complex brains." OK, so, "coded information systems are only know to originate from entities that have understanding of nature, foresight and intent because of their complex brains." These are "intelligent beings." I have no problem with that. That may not be appreciated by some folk who think God designed DNA directly without other intermediate intelligences in the chain, but it's not a problem for ID, per se., and not for me at all, personally. As for being objectively verifiable, for some things I may have to be satisfied with the inference to the best explanation. Time will tell. But ID is not vacuous. Anyway, I think I've stated what I need to. Anything beyond this will be beyond the scope of my interest.
Signals that human beings (or similar life forms) might send out into space. If we find some, we’ll conclude that there is life elsewhere in the galaxy, and try to find out where they are living.
You bet. But even if we could not make contact, it would be reasonable to assume an intelligent source, likely one with complex brains, but not conclusively until we could examine them.
SETI is not a theory!!! It is a search.
It's a search in an attempt find evidence supporting an implied conjecture: namely, that it is very likely that it takes a human-like intelligence to produce "coded information", "narrowband signals", and the like. Otherwise search for these things would be a waste of time. FWIW, I don't think ID is a theory, either. Like SETI, it's a conjecture looking for evidence. The conjecture underlying both enterprises is, "it takes human-like intelligence to produce these effects."
They describe what they are searching for, and what makes them think they’ll find it (i.e. the odds of finding a highly evolved life form on some other planet).
"Highly evolved life" is just another term for "human-like intelligence", given what their searching for. And they say just that on their web site. Here's how they put it: "What is the premise of SETI? "It is an effort to detect evidence of technological civilizations that may exist elsewhere in the universe, particularly in our galaxy. ...we have some ability to discover evidence of cosmic habitation, and in the specific case of our SETI experiments to find beings that are at a technological level at least as advanced as our own...Other tell-tale characteristics include a signal that is completely polarized or the existence of coded information on the signal." In other words, human-like intelligence exists, and they can produce technological societies like humans do, that can produce the effects that human-like technological societies can produce, and we hope to find such effects. Now, on earth, we've found coded information from a non-human source... in our own DNA replicator. It's right there for all to see. Why is coded information a reason to suspect intelligence "out there" and but not "in here?" Particularly in light of lack of natural chemical affinities for the components. I think Meyers makes a strong case for this. Hardly, "unsupported" as you claim.
If they ever find something interesting, we will have to come up with theories to explain what might be responsible (perhaps by looking at the planet that the signals are originating from).
Even if we find signs of intelligence, we may never be able to determine the physical structure of the entities that generated the effects. We could assume it was complex brains. But it wouldn't matter. All that matters to get started is to make a conjecture, and put telescopes out to the sky looking for evidence. ID is "putting the telescope" inward, so to speak. And I think the DNA replicator is the smoking gun - a clear sign of intelligence - for reasons previously given: coded information in an extremely unlikely chemical combination. Whatever it is, it isn't a vacuous conjecture.
Ok, so even though I have told you that a jooba is intelligent, you cannot tell me one single thing that I can observe about this jooba. That means that calling something “intelligent” has no observable consequences. In other words, nothing follows from determining that something is intelligent. In other words, “intelligent” is a scientifically vacuous description.
Perhaps I misread what your intent here. I think I now know what you wanted. If you tell me (given my definition) that jooba is intelligent, I would look at its effects and see if it produced coded information or narrowband radio signals. If it did, I would conclude that it had intelligence or was made by an intelligence. Not vacuous Cheers!CentralScrutinizer
July 25, 2013
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Hi CentralScrutinizer,
RDF: How could we possibly establish that the transmission of, say, prime numbers required that the sender had these attributes? We can’t of course – we would have absolutely no idea what any attributes of the sender might be. CS: We do know that humans possess certain properties that allow us to create such coded signals. And that is what SETI is looking for. That is what ID is looking for.
Human beings are complex living things, with sense organs, nervous systems, muscles, and other complex physical systems that enable us to perceive, store and retrieve memories, generate plans, and design and build other complex systems. SETI does indeed assume that anything out there that might send us a signal is just this sort of thing - "life as we know it". But I think you'd agree that is what ID is "looking for": If ID posits that extra-terrestrial complex life forms are the reason for complex biological systems on Earth, then we might as well assume we are simply descendents of those complex life forms, and not the products of its bioengineering!
RDF: 2) Observation: Joe designs a computer. Vacuous explanation: Joe is intelligent. CS: Not vacuous. It would be vacuous if “designing computers” was part of the definition of “intelligence.” It’s not in my definition. Observation: Joe designs a computer. Non-vacuous explanation: because he possesses understanding of nature, foresight and intent.
The explanation is vacuous without some specific definition. You have provided a specific definition (although it is not one that has been established as the technical definition associated with ID theory). So the problem with your definition is not that it is vacuous; rather, it is that we have no evidence that this definition applies to the cause of living things. Think about it: How do you know that Joe the computer-maker possesses a conscious understanding of nature, and conscious foresight and intent? Answer: Because we know these things about human beings of course, and because Joe is a human being. If we knew nothing of what caused the computer, you could not make this inference.
RDF: 3) Observation: Biology exhibits CSI. Vacuous explanation: The cause was intelligent. CS: Sidebar: At this stage, I’m not convinced that “CSI” is a knock-down argument in favor of intelligence causation. Interesting, and perhaps promising, but not knock-down.
I use "CSI" as shorthand for the "complex form and function" that convinces us that living systems need some explanation. I'm not interested in debating just what features of biology represent "CSI" or "irreducible complexity" or whatever - I'm quite convinced that the complex machinery we observe requires an explanation that we have not yet come up with.
I think codes are a very strong indicator of intelligence as I define it.
That is a completely unsupported opinion. You have precisely one data point: human beings generate codes, and human beings have conscious intent. You cannot therefore conclude that anything that generates codes must likewise have conscious intent. The only thing we know of that has conscious intent requires a well-functioning brain in order to experience that - and brains are ridiculously complex organs, with more "CSI" that anything else we know of. So if you are going to try and reason that like effects have like causes, you end up with the hypothesis that whatever created DNA mechanisms in biological systems was something with a very complex brain. But again, ID doesn't want to conclude that some complex life form created life on Earth. Rather, ID wants to reject that part of the inference. ID argues that even though the cause of life wasn't itself a complex organism, it was still similar to human beings in that it experienced conscious intent, etc. But of course there is no evidence that anything like that has ever existed, and no idea how it could.
Whether or not you agree with my take on intelligence being the best inference for the aforementioned bio-mechanism is beside the point. The point is, “intelligent cause” is not a vacuous explanation. It may be wrong, but it’s not vacuous.
I agree that your definition is not vacuous: Your definition of intelligence is "having understanding of nature, foresight and intent". Even though we do not understand how "foresight" or "understanding" works in human beings, I understand each of these attributes subjectively, because I consciously experience what we call understanding, planning, and intentions. You could also try to verify these attributes by asking me questions, or test that I can generate plans by giving me novel problems to solve. You cannot, however, ascertain if the cause of living things likewise experiences these things.
SETI is looking for signs of intelligence. Because, as we know it, intelligence has the properties that can create recognizable effects such as coded information. ID is the same. Non-vacuous.
As we know it, "intelligence" is a property of complex living things. SETI is searching for this. If that is what ID is "searching for", then ID has another set of problems, as I've explained above.
RDF: The problem is not that there are no definitions of “intelligence”; rather, the problem is that there are arbitrarily many different definitions of course. What makes ID a vacuous term is that ID fails to provide one particular definition. And if ID is to be empirically supportable, the definition must be scientific – that is, it needs to describe something that we can test for. CS: Maybe somebody should nail it down in a robust and rigorous way.
Only if ID is supposed to be taken seriously. You have provide one definition that is non-vacuous, but still cannot be operationalized in the context of ID. What you'll find is that there is no definition that will meet ID's objectives of being non-vacuous and objectively verifiable in the context of ID.
But then I ask: what is SETI looking for?
Signals that human beings (or similar life forms) might send out into space. If we find some, we'll conclude that there is life elsewhere in the galaxy, and try to find out where they are living.
Where is their robust and rigorous definition?
SETI is not a theory!!! It is a search. They describe what they are searching for, and what makes them think they'll find it (i.e. the odds of finding a highly evolved life form on some other planet). If they ever find something interesting, we will have to come up with theories to explain what might be responsible (perhaps by looking at the planet that the signals are originating from).
RDF: You say that intelligent things “possess understanding of nature, foresight, and intent.” Ok, so I have something here in my laboratory (I call it a “booja”). Can you please tell me how to determine if this booja is intelligent? Conversely, I have something else here in my lab that is called a jooba, and I’m certain the jooba is intelligent. Can you please tell me one single thing that I can observe about this jooba? CS: I would have to examine their effects. What are they? If they emitted a radio signal that encoded the first hundred primes and nothing else I would conclude that either that it was intelligent, or that its creator was intelligent. If they rearranged matter in ways that are extremely unlikely given the chemical affinities, then I might be tempted to think the same.
Ok, so even though I have told you that a jooba is intelligent, you cannot tell me one single thing that I can observe about this jooba. That means that calling something "intelligent" has no observable consequences. In other words, nothing follows from determining that something is intelligent. In other words, "intelligent" is a scientifically vacuous description. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
July 25, 2013
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RDFish, ... And if they rearranged matter in ways that are extremely unlikely given the chemical affinities, and produced a system of coded information, storage, transmission, replication, then I would hard pressed to not think the same.CentralScrutinizer
July 23, 2013
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RDFish: How could we possibly establish that the transmission of, say, prime numbers required that the sender had these attributes? We can’t of course – we would have absolutely no idea what any attributes of the sender might be.
We do know that humans possess certain properties that allow us to create such coded signals. And that is what SETI is looking for. That is what ID is looking for.
RD: However, if you ask “How does Joe manage to run so well?”, then the explanation of “Because of his superior athleticism” becomes vacuous – it is no explanation at all, since you are merely labeling the observation. CS: This is correct, but irrelevant. RD: No, this is both correct and critically relevant. Once again: 1) Observation: Joe runs the marathon quickly. Vacuous explanation: Joe is athletic.
You are shifting ground. "Running quickly" is indeed part of my definition of athleticism and therefore in your example would be circular and therefore a vacuous explanation. My example was, Q: why did Joe win the competition? A: superior athleticism. Not vacuous given my definition of athleticism.
2) Observation: Joe designs a computer. Vacuous explanation: Joe is intelligent.
Not vacuous. It would be vacuous if "designing computers" was part of the definition of "intelligence." It's not in my definition. Observation: Joe designs a computer. Non-vacuous explanation: because he possesses understanding of nature, foresight and intent.
3) Observation: Biology exhibits CSI. Vacuous explanation: The cause was intelligent.
Sidebar: At this stage, I'm not convinced that "CSI" is a knock-down argument in favor of intelligence causation. Interesting, and perhaps promising, but not knock-down. I think codes are a very strong indicator of intelligence as I define it. So I would reword your example to say: Observation: coded information and coding/decoding in the DNA self-replicator that have no evidentiary support for plausible pre-systemic chemical affinities between the encoded data medium and the decoding mechanism; Explanation: best inference to cause- intelligent agency, i.e, some entity with an understanding of nature, foresight, and intent. Not vacuous. (Whether or not you agree with my take on intelligence being the best inference for the aforementioned bio-mechanism is beside the point. The point is, "intelligent cause" is not a vacuous explanation. It may be wrong, but it's not vacuous.)
Me: Likewise, ID proponents are not attempting to explain intelligence. They are looking for signs of it. Ponder the difference. RDFish: You need to ponder the problem. You can’t find “intelligence”, because it isn’t a thing. It is a very loosely defined property of living things, like “athleticism” (or “living”!).
Intelligence as we know it and as I define it can exhibit certain effects, which is what SETI is looking for. And what ID is looking for. Not vacuous.
In some sense, every living thing is intelligent, and every intelligent thing is living. You imagine that perhaps something could have the same abilities that living things exhibit without the benefit of being a complex organism; well, you can imagine all sorts of things, but as far as anyone knows, this is impossible.
SETI is looking for the effects of human-like intelligence (something that understands nature, has foresight, and intent), and so is ID. Not vacuous.
RDF: Or somebody who can’t run, throw, or jump, but plays championship golf? Or ping-pong? Or lifts weights? Or is an expert marksman? Or swims? Which of these are athletic? CS: If depends on how you define athleticism. Thank you for this concession. You should now begin to appreciate the problem.
I didn't concede anything. Limiting the scope of a putative source is not a concession. I can limit the scope of athleticism to simply "running, jumping and throwing" and use that term in a non-vacuous explanatory way, as I have already demonstrated: Q: why did Jim win the marathon (an effect), A: superior athleticism (a non-vacuous causal explanation.) Say I'm a talent scout looking for people who are more likely to win, I can use the term this way: Q: what are you looking for? A: people who win marathons. Why? Because, as I understand it, winning marathons is a effect of people with superior atheticism. SETI is looking for signs of intelligence. Because, as we know it, intelligence has the properties that can create recognizable effects such as coded information. ID is the same. Non-vacuous.
The problem is not that there are no definitions of “intelligence”; rather, the problem is that there are arbitrarily many different definitions of course. What makes ID a vacuous term is that ID fails to provide one particular definition. And if ID is to be empirically supportable, the definition must be scientific – that is, it needs to describe something that we can test for.
Maybe somebody should nail it down in a robust and rigorous way. But then I ask: what is SETI looking for? Where is their robust and rigorous definition? I think you're picking at nits. SETI is looking for signs of human-like intelligence, something that can create coded information, like us, because its understanding of nature, foresight, and intent. ID is looking for the same.
You say that intelligent things “possess understanding of nature, foresight, and intent.” Ok, so I have something here in my laboratory (I call it a “booja”). Can you please tell me how to determine if this booja is intelligent? Conversely, I have something else here in my lab that is called a jooba, and I’m certain the jooba is intelligent. Can you please tell me one single thing that I can observe about this jooba?
I would have to examine their effects. What are they? If they emitted a radio signal that encoded the first hundred primes and nothing else I would conclude that either that it was intelligent, or that its creator was intelligent. If they rearranged matter in ways that are extremely unlikely given the chemical affinities, then I might be tempted to think the same.CentralScrutinizer
July 23, 2013
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"Of course design is detectable!" - Elizabeth LiddleMung
July 21, 2013
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testAlan Fox
July 20, 2013
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Elizabeth Liddle:
That’s it. Your life depends on it. What do you decide, and why?
I deny your premise. My life depends upon God and God alone, and red balls or blue balls are not going to change that.Mung
July 20, 2013
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M. F. Nature is full of bizarre events. I can state absolutely that there is zero possibility that there can be a mindless, natural source for a Lexus ES330. It would be bizarre that you might want to maintain the possibility of a nonzero probability for such an occurrence. I use the same logic going back to my first post. You have no way of convincing anyone that there is a nonzero probability for any of these occurrences and frankly to maintain so is bizarre in itself.groovamos
July 17, 2013
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Being an evomat is almost understandable. Not having seen the Princess Bride is a different matter altogether! Well, maybe I can rectify one if not the other. Here is a taste.Phinehas
July 17, 2013
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Liz! @99: No worries! I'm having the same issue with my exclamation mark! --Phin!Phinehas
July 17, 2013
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The smileys on this board are weird. That was supposed to the :embarrassed: smileyElizabeth B Liddle
July 17, 2013
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Sorry, now! Never seen it :oElizabeth B Liddle
July 17, 2013
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Maybe a more obvious reference? Blue...no, yelloooooooooooooooooow.Phinehas
July 17, 2013
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C'mon. No props for the Princess Bride references? *sigh* I suppose I'll just have to go start a land war in Asia.Phinehas
July 17, 2013
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Elizabeth:
I know that intricate and beautiful objects can result from natural forces without a mind.
But from where did those "natural forces" come from?Joe
July 17, 2013
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Dembski’s EF, and CSI concepts are based on Fisherian null hypothesis testing.
No, the EF works fine without Fisher. As for your puzzle, I wouldn't choose anything. I would tell them to shoot me and that is all the entertainment they will get.Joe
July 17, 2013
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Ignore the question mark, Phinehas! Finger slipped on new keyboard!Elizabeth B Liddle
July 17, 2013
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Thanks, Phinehas? Anyone else want to have a go? There is, obviously, no correct answer, it's the reasoning I'm interested in :)Elizabeth B Liddle
July 17, 2013
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Groovamos
OK if there is a non-zero probability of such, then what is it?
We know it is extremely low and in most contexts we would rightly dismiss it. But if you are confronted with an extraordinary results you need to look for extraordinary explanations. Now, as discussed many times, human-like aliens are not only a better explanation of the prime number sequence then some filtering process but for most of us they are more likely to exist. However, we were considering the hypothetical assumption that we dismissed the possibility of aliens.
If I state that there is a probability of zero that stable liquid water droplets are orbiting the earth at 1000 Km altitude, are you going to come back with something about eminent men and their sayings? This is sound argumentation?
I don't know what kind of phenomenon would be best explained by stable liquid water droplets orbiting the earth at 1000 Km altitude - but if there were some extraordinary outcome with no other conceivable explanation then it would be sound to consider if there were some way such drops were possible. Nature is full of bizarre events. On the other hand in the absence of such a phenomenon it is sound argument to dismiss the water drops as a possibility.Mark Frank
July 16, 2013
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I, for one, am very glad that RDFish is not a paid investigator. Nothing would ever get accomplished with him around.Joe
July 16, 2013
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Hi CentralScrutinizer,
No, it means that we found something that appears to have been sent by intelligence, i.e, sent something that possesses understanding of nature, foresight, and intent.
How could we possibly establish that the transmission of, say, prime numbers required that the sender had these attributes? We can't of course - we would have absolutely no idea what any attributes of the sender might be. Only to the extent that we established a likelihood that the sender is a complex organism similar to ourselves could we tentatively infer that they experienced conscious thought like we do.
However, if you ask “How does Joe manage to run so well?”, then the explanation of “Because of his superior athleticism” becomes vacuous – it is no explanation at all, since you are merely labeling the observation. CS: This is correct, but irrelevant.
No, this is both correct and critically relevant. Once again: 1) Observation: Joe runs the marathon quickly. Vacuous explanation: Joe is athletic. 2) Observation: Joe designs a computer. Vacuous explanation: Joe is intelligent. 3) Observation: Biology exhibits CSI. Vacuous explanation: The cause was intelligent.
Likewise, ID proponents are not attempting to explain intelligence. They are looking for signs of it. Ponder the difference.
You need to ponder the problem. You can't find "intelligence", because it isn't a thing. It is a very loosely defined property of living things, like "athleticism" (or "living"!). In some sense, every living thing is intelligent, and every intelligent thing is living. You imagine that perhaps something could have the same abilities that living things exhibit without the benefit of being a complex organism; well, you can imagine all sorts of things, but as far as anyone knows, this is impossible.
RDF: Or somebody who can’t run, throw, or jump, but plays championship golf? Or ping-pong? Or lifts weights? Or is an expert marksman? Or swims? Which of these are athletic? CS: If depends on how you define athleticism.
Thank you for this concession. You should now begin to appreciate the problem.
Under my definition, golf isn’t specifically mentioned. Are you saying that nobody has defined intelligence? If that were true, then ID would be a vacuous term.
The problem is not that there are no definitions of "intelligence"; rather, the problem is that there are arbitrarily many different definitions of course. What makes ID a vacuous term is that ID fails to provide one particular definition. And if ID is to be empirically supportable, the definition must be scientific - that is, it needs to describe something that we can test for.
I think “intelligence” is pretty well defined, and I have offered a definition of my own to you several times. What part of it are you having trouble with?
You say that intelligent things "possess understanding of nature, foresight, and intent." Ok, so I have something here in my laboratory (I call it a "booja"). Can you please tell me how to determine if this booja is intelligent? Conversely, I have something else here in my lab that is called a jooba, and I'm certain the jooba is intelligent. Can you please tell me one single thing that I can observe about this jooba?
RDF: And this is why saying something is “athletic” tells us precisely nothing, and that is why “athleticism” cannot serve as an explanation of anything. It only tells you nothing if, A) there is no definition of “athletic, or B) you are trying to explain what it is from the definition.
Of course there are plenty of definitions of "athletic" - just look in some dictionaries. That doesn't help. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
July 16, 2013
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groovamos: This ain’t even the half of it. Nobody has mentioned here that SETI is searching for narrowband emissions in the lower end of the EM spectrum.
True, although I did point to a paragraph on their website at #70 and #71 that sort of mentions it. :) http://www.seti.org/faq#obs9CentralScrutinizer
July 16, 2013
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Blue. If the factory makes red and blue balls, they would typically be packaged as, all red, all blue, or some mix. If I pull out a red ball, I know I'm not dealing with a bag of all blue balls, so I can remove that possibility from the list. If this is an all red bag and I choose red, then I am guaranteed to live. If the bag is some mix of red and blue balls, there are three possibilities. 1. There are more red balls than blue balls. 2. There are more blue balls than red balls. 3. There are the same number of blue and red balls. The fact that I've pulled out a red ball means that (1) is the most likely scenario, in which case my odds of getting another red are no less than 50%. I don't know enough probability math to figure out exactly how much more likely (1) is given the fact that I've drawn a red ball, but I don't really need to know, since, intuitively, it is above 50% and I can still compare it to the other possibilities. As (2) approaches the worst case scenario for selecting red (in other words, I got the one red ball and all blue are left), the odds of that actually being the distribution I am facing, having drawn a red ball randomly, start at less than 50% and go down to approach zero. So, any potential distribution in which there is increased benefit for selecting a blue ball is balanced against the fact it is less likely to be the actual scenario I am facing. I'm not sure how perfectly these probabilities balance out, but intuitively, the combination would not rise above 50%. If I am facing (3), and have picked a red ball, then I've got slightly better odds of picking a blue ball with my next choice. But what are the odds that I am facing an exactly even distribution? Well, here's where the human element might come it. An exactly even distribution sounds like a logical choice for someone setting up the scenario described, so I can definitely see a human tendency to pick it as a specification. On the other hand, logic might not be the highest priority of someone who is basing my life or death on probabilities, so clearly I cannot choose the wine in front of me. I'm going to assume someone who'd set up this kind of scenario is a sadist (probably from Australia, which, as everyone knows, is entirely peopled with criminals) who is most likely interested in having some fun at my expense, so there's a pretty good chance that they've built up an immunity to Iocane and this whole thing is rigged. So, I'm picking blue, since it is my favorite color.Phinehas
July 16, 2013
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Dr Liddle: Well, natural forces generate coded information every time a cell in your body divides. I guess you mean wrote the coding system?
See #69: "But you don’t have considerable evidence for [natural forces] to assemble into Earth’s self-replicator, except from prior instances of the self-replicator."CentralScrutinizer
July 16, 2013
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RDFish: Say we receive a signal that doesn’t appear to be caused by known physical mechanisms outside of complex living organisms. We might then assume that complex living organisms of some sort sent the signals, and that would be our best explanation.
SETI sky scanning is looking for evidence of intelligence, namely, evidence of beings that possess understanding of nature, foresight, and intent.
But to say “intelligence” sent the signal doesn’t actually mean anything beyond “the signal was sent by something that was capable of sending the signal”, which obviously tells us nothing at all.
No, it means that we found something that appears to have been sent by intelligence, i.e, sent something that possesses understanding of nature, foresight, and intent. Moreover, SETI is not trying to explain intelligence. It is trying to find evidence of it based on what is thought to be plausible manifestations of it, such as "completely polarized emissions" and "coded information."
I suppose this explanation does tell us something by eliminating other possibilities. For example, other explanations could be “because he bribed the judges” or “for political reasons” or “because he used steroids”.
Thank you for yoru partial concession. However, it also can tell us that he possessed superior athleticism than his competitors. This is not a vacuous explanation for the simple fact that I defined athleticism, namely, as possessing the ability to run, jump and throw. Are you saying the ability to run, jump and throw are vacuous ideas? Or that one athlete cannot possess those attributes in greater and lesser degrees?
However, if you ask “How does Joe manage to run so well?”, then the explanation of “Because of his superior athleticism” becomes vacuous – it is no explanation at all, since you are merely labeling the observation.
This is correct, but irrelevant. As stated above, SETI doesn't attempt to explain intelligence- it is looking for signs of it. Likewise, ID proponents are not attempting to explain intelligence. They are looking for signs of it. Ponder the difference.
If somebody can run well, but not throw or jump at all, is that person still athletic?
In that case they could be said to exhibit some of the attributes of athleticism, but not all, as I have defined athleticism. Likewise if a retarded person can understand some things, but has no concept of "the future", i.e, no foresight, such a person could be said to possess some of the attributes of intelligence, but not all, according to my definition of intelligence.
Or somebody who can’t run, throw, or jump, but plays championship golf? Or ping-pong? Or lifts weights? Or is an expert marksman? Or swims? Which of these are athletic?
If depends on how you define athleticism. Under my definition, golf isn't specifically mentioned. Are you saying that nobody has defined intelligence? If that were true, then ID would be a vacuous term. I think "intelligence" is pretty well defined, and I have offered a definition of my own to you several times. What part of it are you having trouble with?
And this is why saying something is “athletic” tells us precisely nothing, and that is why “athleticism” cannot serve as an explanation of anything.
It only tells you nothing if, A) there is no definition of "athletic, or B) you are trying to explain what it is from the definition. SETI isn't trying to explain intelligence and neither is ID. They are looking for signs of it. Both groups have a pretty decent idea how to define the term.CentralScrutinizer
July 16, 2013
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