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Does São Paulo Cathedral Have More Beaut-Ls than a Dilapidated Shack?

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One of our Darwinist friends’ favorite tactics is to insist that if something cannot be precisely quantified in mathematical terms then there is no warrant for believing it exists at all.  For example, ID proponents might point out that Mount Rushmore exhibits complex specified information (“CSI”).  “How much CSI does Mount Rushmore exhibit?” a Darwinist might ask.  “Oh, you can’t give me a figure?  Then CSI obviously does not exist.”

MathGrrl, one of my favorite materialists, put it this way:  “My conclusion is that, without a rigorous mathematical definition and examples of how to calculate [CSI], the metric is literally meaningless.  Without such a definition and examples, it isn’t possible even in principle to associate the term with a real world referent.”

Let us set aside for the moment that CSI is often subject to rigorous mathematical definition and calculation (as Kairosfocus has demonstrated several times).  Let us assume for the sake of argument that sometimes it might be exceedingly difficult or even impossible to quantify a particular example of CSI (like that exhibited in Mount Rushmore).  Does it follow that MathGrrl is right, that the concept of CSI is therefore meaningless?  No it does not for the simple reason that not every phenomenon is precisely quantifiable.

Consider for example the concept of “utility” in economics.  Utility is a representation of preferences.  For example, say I have ten franks and you have ten buns.  If I want to make hotdogs for dinner I might trade you five of my franks for five of your buns.  This means that to me the utility of franks 6 through 10 is less than the utility of buns 1 through 5 and therefore I am willing to give those franks up to get those buns, so we make a trade.

Closely related is the concept of declining marginal utility.  If I am hungry I might place a high level of utility on a frank (extremely high if I am starving).  I might even enjoy a second or third frank.  But surely by the time I have eaten, say, ten franks, the 11th frank is not going to be very appealing to me.  The more franks I eat the less value each successive frank has to me.  So we see that the “marginal utility” (i.e., the utility of the next unit) declines after a certain point.

“Utility” defies precise quantification even though economists sometimes treat it as if it were quantifiable.  There is even a unit of measure for utility called the “util,” and an economist might speak of a certain consumption set (e.g., three apples) as having a utility of say 75 utils.  Clearly, however, the concept of “utils” has meaning only in the context of ranking the consumption set with other consumption sets.  It has no meaning in itself.  Thus, economists say that the number of utils has only “ordinal” and not “cardinal” significance.

Does the fact that utility is not subject to precise quantification mean that it is a meaningless concept?  Obviously not.  Can there be any doubt that people make exchanges because they believe the goods they currently possess have less utility to them than the goods they could acquire by trading them?  Such trades happen billions of times each day.  Similarly, can there be any doubt that I will prefer the first frank that I eat much more than the 30th?   Thus we conclude that “utility” is a real and useful concept even though the exact utility a good has with respect to a particular consumer might defy quantification.

The photographs at the top of this post lead us to another concept that is real but unquantifiable.  Does anyone reading this post doubt that São Paulo Cathedral is more beautiful than the dilapidated shack?  Of course not.

Let me now coin a new term – the “beaut-L.”  Like the economists’ util, a beaut-L is a unit of beauty.

Now that we have a unit by which we may quantify beauty, can anyone tell me precisely how much more beautiful the São Paulo Cathedral is than the dilapidated shack?  Does the cathedral have 500 beaut-Ls while the shack has only 20 (or negative 20) beaut-Ls?

The answer, of course, is that the question is meaningless.  Any attempt to assign precise mathematical quantities to beauty is facile.  Nevertheless, beauty exists and some objects are more beautiful than other objects.

We can conclude from these examples that our Darwinist friends are wrong when they insist that a concept must always be precisely mathematically quantifiable in order for it to be meaningful.  And I further conclude that my inability to assign a quantity of CSI* to Mount Rushmore does not mean that the sculpture does not nevertheless exhibit CSI.

 

*I hereby coin another term — ceezi (pronounced “seez eye”) for a unit of CSI.  No?  OK.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Comments
I hereby coin another term, Common Sense Information, and a corollary, Common Sense Engineering. Darwinists live in a bizarre fantasy world which I would describe as irrational, although "irrational" does not quite fit the bill -- it's hyper-irrational. When confronted with the most sophisticated information and information-processing machinery ever discovered, in living systems, they require: "Give me a mathematical proof that accidents zapping nucleotides in DNA molecules can't transform a self-replicating molecule into Rachmaninoff and his piano concerti in 10^17 seconds." A mathematical proof is not required. Such a proposition is so stupendously stupid that only someone who has been indoctrinated with Darwinian orthodoxy can believe such nonsense. Of course, Darwinists never advance their claims in these terms, which is what they are actually advocating, because any rational person would obviously ask what phenomenon or experience messed up their minds. The only rational conclusion that can be reached, in my opinion, is that the laws of physics which govern the universe were designed in advance for the eventual appearance of living things, and that the information and engineering evident in living systems can only be rationally explained by a super-intelligence that purposed the entire thing. It is for these reasons -- in part, but not completely -- that I abandoned a lifetime commitment to materialistic atheism. This, I propose, is what Darwinists fear the most: The science and mathematics that they deify as a foundation of their atheistic-materialistic worldview, when legitimately and rationally considered, can actually lead one to abandon their ideology.GilDodgen
August 14, 2012
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scordova: "Quine’s are known design template." In a sense certainly, but I'm not sure I would agree with your notion that it would be a fruitful area of research. After all, to convert a Quine into something resembling a self-replicator then the Quine must describe a self-describing compiler. Which, once compiled, the Quine-as-mechanism is fed a copy of the Quine-as-text and the whole thing repeats. But noting that is to simply posit a Von Neumann self-replicator absent any discussion of the resource acquisition and machinery to construct an execution environment -- beyond chemistry -- for a Quine-as-compiler. Perhaps you have some other distinction in mind, but it would seem that a Von Neumann replicator is really rather what we're after.Maus
August 14, 2012
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"One of our Darwinist friends’ favorite tactics is to insist that if something cannot be precisely quantified in mathematical terms then there is no warrant for believing it exists at all." Without regard to any specific topic, I find this position less common then the alternate: I wrote an equation, therefore it exists. (String theorists and other theoretical physicists seem to the be the worst offenders here.) Both are just as loopy, in either case. "MathGrrl, one of my favorite materialists, put it this way:" For what it's worth, MathPrrson is correct here. With the caveat that we are speaking about formalizing recognition tasks and predictive models. In other words, if we are speaking of engineering with respect to a notion. But so long as there is no confusion with a formal description and 'reality' then there can be no issues. To throw a bone for social graces it's worth noting that 'natural selection' is no better nor differently described than 'CSI'. Ah, perhaps not terribly social after all. Take it in a positive light either way. "Closely related is the concept of declining marginal utility." And this is terribly savvy and apropos. It's worth noting that the problem of utility is that we have actually measured deviation with 'rational models' of psychological value assignment. So 'utility' is simply an ad hoc measure of relative deviation from some putative 'rational model'. We cannot, of course, model irrationality other than to say that anything goes. Nor can we do a passing job of what 'actual rationality' is. But we can reliably demonstrate the decline in marginal utility in various means and guises. But it serves the exact same role in economics as do notions in other fields. It's simply a big parametric flag that denotes 'here there be quantifiable dragons'. Key emphasis of 'quantifiable dragons'. And we find such things regularly in actual science as practiced, be it relativistic corrections, Dark Energy, utility, or any other notion of numerical slop in the model. The shared problem here between Dice and Design is that there is no such accepted model of a 'rational evolver' to begin with. And lacking this there's simply no manner in which to speak sanely about what quantifiable dragons exist in the equations. PopGen is usually held up in defense, but it neither models the problem correctly, nor speaks to the larger issue beyond fixation issues. There's simply no obvious and ceteris paribus tautologies such as MV = PQ floating about that we can attach 'mutatil' units and curves to. And for this I tip my hat at the ID crowd for continuing to make a good run at that very problem. And I join MathPrrson in disparaging the current anti-formalist approach of the Dice crowd. Well, I assume that's MathPrrson's point. Otherwise is just self-refuting absurdity. But if that's the case then I'll just sit back and laugh; social graces be damned.Maus
August 14, 2012
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Well Neil, by your "logic" the theory of evolution is a topic for something other than science.Joe
August 14, 2012
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One other thing, there may be metrics that exist in principle but are not tractable as a matter of praticality. Lots of designs fall in that category. However, because DNA and proteins are discrete and digital, tractability is possible in some instances. There are enough of those instances to make a design inference, not the least of which is that life is an instance of a "quine": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quine_(computing) Quine's are known design template. They should have some features that can be analyzed, and in fact, Hofstadter gave some outline in Godel Escher Bach. This would be a fruitful area of research for ID proponents. Only one peer-reviewed paper by Voie went through and entered into the ID discussion. There could be many, many more such papers.scordova
August 14, 2012
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The answer, of course, is that the question is meaningless. Any attempt to assign precise mathematical quantities to beauty is facile. Nevertheless, beauty exists and some objects are more beautiful than other objects.
This is why beauty is a topic for art and for philosophy, but is not a topic suitable for scientific study.
And I further conclude that my inability to assign a quantity of CSI* to Mount Rushmore does not mean that the sculpture does not nevertheless exhibit CSI.
You have thereby made the case that CSI is a topic for art and philosophy, but is not science.Neil Rickert
August 14, 2012
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MathGrrl, one of my favorite materialists, put it this way: “My conclusion is that, without a rigorous mathematical definition and examples of how to calculate [CSI], the metric is literally meaningless. Without such a definition and examples, it isn’t possible even in principle to associate the term with a real world referent.”
If this is a problem, it is even worse for Darwinists, because they are trying to explain how Darwinian mechanisms create features in biology that Mathgrrl says doesn't exist except in our minds. :-) But the rigorous mathematical definitions for a some examples are within reach. I pointed out some example with lock-and-key systems and coordinated complexity. See: Coordinated Complexity — the key to refuting postdiction and single target objections That should refute lots of mathgrrls objections. I plan to intereact with Mathgrrl/patrick (he already publicly outed himself, so I'm not trying to compromise his privacy) over at Skeptical Zone. The critics can be very helpful. His criticism deserve to be addressed, but the situation is not as dire as Mathgrrl supposes, imho.scordova
August 14, 2012
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BA: Serious point. Of course the digitised charts that specify the cathedral or the shack could in principle be used to quantify the CSI involved, especially to show that it is obviously well beyond 500 - 1,000 bits. (The same could be done per a nodes and arcs plot of Mt Rushmore.) So would the shack. But we can rank order the beauty of the shack vs the cathedral without being able to have an interval much less a ratio scale. Somewhere between would be a well designed functional office building, and I think a nice house would be higher than the office but lower than the cathedral.But, I think anyone who denied that there was something real being ranked, would not be taken seriously. To determine that the CSI in a given object is credibly beyond 500 - 1,000 bits and that it is therefore not likely to have arisen by blind chance and necessity, is reasonable. KFkairosfocus
August 14, 2012
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