Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Does the Idea of “Autopoeitic” Include Self Organization; If So How?

Categories
Intelligent Design
Share
Facebook
Twitter/X
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

In another post Mung points out this interesting quote to Kantian Naturalist (an atheist):  “That crude matter should have originally formed itself according to mechanical laws, that life should have sprung from the nature of what is lifeless, that matter should have been able to dispose itself into the form of a self-maintaining purposiveness – that [is] contradictory to reason.”  Immanuel Kant  

Kantian Naturalist replies:  

[Recently] I read “Bio-agency and the problem of action” by J. C. Skewes & C. A. Hooker (Biology and Philosophy 24 (3):283-300, 2009). I won’t get into all the details right now; suffice it to say that the way they set up the problem in what I find to be a deeply compelling fashion. Namely, the Aristotelian-Kantian notion that organisms are centers of their own causal activity is not compatible with linear effective causation — what you might call a “domino” theory of causation. So, what they propose to do is reject the domino theory of causation. Put otherwise, they reject mechanism. In its place they argue that dynamical systems theory can explain how autopoeitic systems arise. Anyway, that’s why I agree with Kant.

 “Autopoeitic” is from the Greek“self” and “creation,” and literally that which creates itself.  The term was coined by biologists Humberto Maturana and Francisco Varela.  From Wikipedia:  

A canonical example of an autopoietic system is the biological cell. The eukaryotic cell, for example, is made of various biochemical components such as nucleic acids and proteins, and is organized into bounded structures such as the cell nucleus, various organelles, a cell membrane and cytoskeleton. These structures, based on an external flow of molecules and energy, produce the components which, in turn, continue to maintain the organized bounded structure that gives rise to these components (not unlike a wave propagating through a medium).

 Here’s the interesting part of the Wiki article for our purposes today:  “Though others have often used the term as a synonym for self-organization, Maturana himself stated he would ‘never use the notion of self-organization, because it cannot be the case… it is impossible. That is, if the organization of a thing changes, the thing changes.’” 

Are Skewes, Hooker and Kantian Naturalist using “autopoeitic” in a different way than Maturana or do they just disagree with Maturana’s statement?  And what does it mean to reject “domino causation”?  Is that just another way of spewing the nonsense of “emergence”?  See “Materialist Poofery” for what I think of that nonsense.  

Comments
as to:
I don’t see why it’s “self-deception” to think that some questions are beyond our finite, all-too-human capacity to answer, or at least to provide empirically-grounded answers.
And I can see why someone not given to the Theistic philosophy would be predisposed to such a 'hopeless' position of thinking that he, in his puny state of being compared to the cosmos, shall not ever be able to reason to ultimate causation for reality. In fact it is such 'hopelessness' that is found in other worldviews that prevented modern science from ever coming to fruition in those other cultures in the first place:
The Origin of Science Jaki writes: Herein lies the tremendous difference between Christian monotheism on the one hand and Jewish and Muslim monotheism on the other. This explains also the fact that it is almost natural for a Jewish or Muslim intellectual to become a patheist. About the former Spinoza and Einstein are well-known examples. As to the Muslims, it should be enough to think of the Averroists. With this in mind one can also hope to understand why the Muslims, who for five hundred years had studied Aristotle's works and produced many commentaries on them failed to make a breakthrough. The latter came in medieval Christian context and just about within a hundred years from the availability of Aristotle's works in Latin.. As we will see below, the break-through that began science was a Christian commentary on Aristotle's De Caelo (On the Heavens).,, Modern experimental science was rendered possible, Jaki has shown, as a result of the Christian philosophical atmosphere of the Middle Ages. Although a talent for science was certainly present in the ancient world (for example in the design and construction of the Egyptian pyramids), nevertheless the philosophical and psychological climate was hostile to a self-sustaining scientific process. Thus science suffered still-births in the cultures of ancient China, India, Egypt and Babylonia. It also failed to come to fruition among the Maya, Incas and Aztecs of the Americas. Even though ancient Greece came closer to achieving a continuous scientific enterprise than any other ancient culture, science was not born there either. Science did not come to birth among the medieval Muslim heirs to Aristotle. …. The psychological climate of such ancient cultures, with their belief that the universe was infinite and time an endless repetition of historical cycles, was often either hopelessness or complacency (hardly what is needed to spur and sustain scientific progress); and in either case there was a failure to arrive at a belief in the existence of God the Creator and of creation itself as therefore rational and intelligible. Thus their inability to produce a self-sustaining scientific enterprise. If science suffered only stillbirths in ancient cultures, how did it come to its unique viable birth? The beginning of science as a fully fledged enterprise took place in relation to two important definitions of the Magisterium of the Church. The first was the definition at the Fourth Lateran Council in the year 1215, that the universe was created out of nothing at the beginning of time. The second magisterial statement was at the local level, enunciated by Bishop Stephen Tempier of Paris who, on March 7, 1277, condemned 219 Aristotelian propositions, so outlawing the deterministic and necessitarian views of creation. These statements of the teaching authority of the Church expressed an atmosphere in which faith in God had penetrated the medieval culture and given rise to philosophical consequences. The cosmos was seen as contingent in its existence and thus dependent on a divine choice which called it into being; the universe is also contingent in its nature and so God was free to create this particular form of world among an infinity of other possibilities. Thus the cosmos cannot be a necessary form of existence; and so it has to be approached by a posteriori investigation. The universe is also rational and so a coherent discourse can be made about it. Indeed the contingency and rationality of the cosmos are like two pillars supporting the Christian vision of the cosmos. http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/a/science_origin.html
In fact the Christian presupposition of the universe being created by a rational Creator, and of us being made in the image of God, and that we can therefore rationally understand the universe, which was so instrumental in the founding of science,,,
Epistemology – Why Should The Human Mind Even Be Able To Comprehend Reality? – Stephen Meyer - video – (Notes in description) http://vimeo.com/32145998
,, has some very stunning empirical confirmation behind it. A couple of points are noted here: In this following video, Dr. Richards and Dr. Gonzalez reveal that the universe is ‘suspiciously set up’ for scientific discovery:
Privileged Planet – Observability/Measurably Correlation – Gonzalez and Richards – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5424431 The very conditions that make Earth hospitable to intelligent life also make it well suited to viewing and analyzing the universe as a whole. - Jay Richards Extreme Fine Tuning of Light, and Atmosphere, for Life and Scientific Discovery - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/7715887/
These following videos are in the same line of thought as the preceding videos:
We Live At The Right Time In Cosmic History – Hugh Ross – video http://vimeo.com/31940671 Hugh Ross - The Anthropic Principle and Anthropic Inequality - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/8494065
But, as impressive, suspicious, and persuasive, as the preceding ‘hints’ are that the universe was created by the infinite Mind of God and can therefore be understood by the mind of man, since we are made in God’s image (as Christianity makes abundantly clear), the deepest correlation, of our mind to the Mind of God, finds its most concrete proof of correlation from looking at consciousness itself through the lens of quantum mechanics.,,, Due to advances in quantum mechanics, the argument for God from consciousness can now be framed like this:
1. Consciousness either precedes all of material reality or is a ‘epi-phenomena’ of material reality. 2. If consciousness is a ‘epi-phenomena’ of material reality then consciousness will be found to have no special position within material reality. Whereas conversely, if consciousness precedes material reality then consciousness will be found to have a special position within material reality. 3. Consciousness is found to have a special, even central, position within material reality. 4. Therefore, consciousness is found to precede material reality. Three intersecting lines of experimental evidence from quantum mechanics that shows that consciousness precedes material reality https://docs.google.com/document/d/1G_Fi50ljF5w_XyJHfmSIZsOcPFhgoAZ3PRc_ktY8cFo/edit
But as audacious as it may seem to someone who has no a-priori reason to believe that the universe may be thoroughly intelligible, as the christian Theists a-priorily believed, I'm given to go one step further and audaciously hold that not only was Christianity necessary for the foundation of modern science but that modern science will find its ultimate completion and authority in the person of Christ! (How's that for stepping on a few atheistic toes? :) )
Centrality of Each Individual Observer In The Universe and Christ’s Very Credible Reconciliation Of General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics https://docs.google.com/document/d/17SDgYPHPcrl1XX39EXhaQzk7M0zmANKdYIetpZ-WB5Y/edit?hl=en_US
verse and music:
Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and upon earth.” Colossians 1:15-20 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. Brooke Fraser – Hillsong: “Lord Of Lords” (HQ) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WB4Tc5zJMUc
bornagain77
November 17, 2012
November
11
Nov
17
17
2012
06:33 PM
6
06
33
PM
PDT
"as fruitless as a dog chasing its tail in a circle" The tail is wagging the dog!Mung
November 17, 2012
November
11
Nov
17
17
2012
04:06 PM
4
04
06
PM
PDT
I don't see why it's "self-deception" to think that some questions are beyond our finite, all-too-human capacity to answer, or at least to provide empirically-grounded answers. One thing I like about the Skewes and Hooker article is that it provides a model for "naturalizing teleology", and putting some much-needed flesh on that skeletal phrase. (Notice, though, that this is not a phrase they use.) The idea now amounts to explaining in terms of a special kind of efficient causation (that of dynamic, complex systems) what is described in terms of final causation.Kantian Naturalist
November 17, 2012
November
11
Nov
17
17
2012
03:51 PM
3
03
51
PM
PDT
as to:
'We’re considering that there is more to causation than just efficient causes."
I know I may regret asking this mung, but since I can't decipher his reasoning, exactly what cause does KN propose to remove the necessity of reasoning to the ultimate 'uncaused cause' within science. ,,, Seems to me that any sort of reasoning that refused to look for ultimate causation would be as fruitless as a dog chasing its tail in a circle! Definitely not satisfying to me but I can see where someone who wanted to hold on to his atheism would be attracted to such self deception.bornagain77
November 17, 2012
November
11
Nov
17
17
2012
03:32 PM
3
03
32
PM
PDT
thanks Mung, I think I had confused 'final cause' with the ultimate 'uncaused cause' of Aquina supon which all causes must ultimately rest: Not Understanding Nothing – A review of A Universe from Nothing – Edward Feser - June 2012 Excerpt: A critic might reasonably question the arguments for a divine first cause of the cosmos. But to ask “What caused God?” misses the whole reason classical philosophers thought his existence necessary in the first place. So when physicist Lawrence Krauss begins his new book by suggesting that to ask “Who created the creator?” suffices to dispatch traditional philosophical theology, we know it isn’t going to end well. ,,, ,,, But Krauss simply can’t see the “difference between arguing in favor of an eternally existing creator versus an eternally existing universe without one.” The difference, as the reader of Aristotle or Aquinas knows, is that the universe changes while the unmoved mover does not, or, as the Neoplatonist can tell you, that the universe is made up of parts while its source is absolutely one; or, as Leibniz could tell you, that the universe is contingent and God absolutely necessary. There is thus a principled reason for regarding God rather than the universe as the terminus of explanation. http://www.firstthings.com/article/2012/05/not-understanding-nothingbornagain77
November 17, 2012
November
11
Nov
17
17
2012
02:50 PM
2
02
50
PM
PDT
But if one removes cause and effect relationship how does one reason within science? This seems to me to be a severely misguided corruption of science on the atheists part.
But no one is talking about removing cause and effect relationship. We're considering that there is more to causation than just efficient causes.
...whereas Theists have always maintained God as ‘final cause’.
I think you're confused about the role of the word 'final' in final cause. http://www.mathpages.com/home/kmath581/kmath581.htm http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/aristotle-causality/Mung
November 17, 2012
November
11
Nov
17
17
2012
02:27 PM
2
02
27
PM
PDT
I read KN to be saying he rejects ‘linear efficient causation’ as the only valid form of causation. A causes B causes C as a sequence in which each cause is only construed as an efficient cause. That’s what I think he meant by domino causation.
Thank you for cashing out that metaphor! I was describing how Skewes and Hooker try and resolve the problem. It's not really a problem about the origins of life, so much as its a problem about how to think about the distinctive kind of causality that living things display. Their point is that one obstacle to thinking about this lies in an overly simplistic model of efficient causation. So the key, they argue, is to abandon that overly simplistic model without abandoning efficient causation tout court. And they think that the way to do that is to treat living things as dynamical complex systems. Now, they don't reintroduce "final causes", and so they're not really teleological realists. I would say that, on their view, there is something real about what teleological describes, but that a genuine explanation of that reality is cashed out in terms of how efficient causation functions in dynamic, complex systems, as distinct from static or simple ones.Kantian Naturalist
November 17, 2012
November
11
Nov
17
17
2012
02:17 PM
2
02
17
PM
PDT
http://www.blumenbach.info/Mung
November 17, 2012
November
11
Nov
17
17
2012
02:15 PM
2
02
15
PM
PDT
In re: (7), Mung, here's the paragraph from the Guyer and Matthews translation of the Critique of the Power of Judgment
No one has done more for the proof of this theory of epigenesis as well as the establishment of the proper principles for its application, partly by limiting an excessively presumptuous use of it, than Privy Councillor Blumenbach. He begins all physical explanation of these formations with organized matter. For he rightly declares it to be contrary to reason that raw matter should originally have formed itself in accordance with mechanical laws, that life should have arisen from the nature of the lifeless, and that matter should have been able to assemble itself into the form of a self-preserving purposiveness by itself
In context, I take it that "formed itself" means "become an organized, purposive whole", bearing in mind that form, or morphe, is that which, in Aristotelian and Scholastic ontology, confers systematic and purposiveness wholeness on something. The classical conception of matter, from Democritus and Epicurus down to Hobbes and Boyle, is that matter is just that which doesn't have "form," and so is a mere aggregate, without any unity or wholeness to it. (This emphasis on aggregation vs. wholeness or unity is also crucial to Leibniz's critique of materialism, and Leibniz's impact on Kant is difficult to underestimate.) So Kant is attributing to Blumenbach, but also endorsing, the view that it is contrary to reason to suppose that raw matter could, in accord with mechanical laws alone, give rise to organisms.Kantian Naturalist
November 17, 2012
November
11
Nov
17
17
2012
02:00 PM
2
02
00
PM
PDT
Here is 'Down In The River To Pray' as it was done in the movie 'O Brother, Where Art Thou?" Down In The River To Pray http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qw6Hon013Ebornagain77
November 17, 2012
November
11
Nov
17
17
2012
01:54 PM
1
01
54
PM
PDT
as to:
I read KN to be saying he rejects ‘linear efficient causation’ as the only valid form of causation. A causes B causes C as a sequence in which each cause is only construed as an efficient cause. That’s what I think he meant by domino causation.
But if one removes cause and effect relationship how does one reason within science? This seems to me to be a severely misguided corruption of science on the atheists part. Take for instance the snowflake that was given for an example. Now the example of the snowflake that was given, in its seemingly endless variety around its basic structure, is certainly a thing of beauty to behold and argues, from that beauty alone, against random causation, but there is also much more evidence besides beauty to suggest, very strongly, that the water molecules from which the snowflakes form are designed and are not the result of some random processes. For instance when we look at water, the most common substance on earth and in our bodies, we find many odd characteristics which clearly appear to be designed. These oddities are absolutely essential for life on earth. Some simple life can exist without the direct energy of sunlight, some simple life can exist without oxygen; but no life can exist without water. Water is called a universal solvent because it has the unique ability to dissolve a far wider range of substances than any other solvent. This 'universal solvent' ability of water is essential for the cells of living organisms to process the wide range of substances necessary for life. Another oddity is water expands as it becomes ice, by an increase of about 9% in volume. Thus, water floats when it becomes a solid instead of sinking. This is an exceedingly rare ability. Yet if it were not for this fact, lakes and oceans would freeze from the bottom up. The earth would be a frozen wasteland, and human life would not be possible. Water also has the unusual ability to pull itself into very fine tubes and small spaces, defying gravity. This is called capillary action. This action is essential for the breakup of mineral bearing rocks into soil. Water pulls itself into tiny spaces on the surface of a rock and freezes; it expands and breaks the rock into tinier pieces, thus producing soil. Capillary action is also essential for the movement of water through soil to the roots of plants. It is also essential for the movement of water from the roots to the tops of the plants, even to the tops of the mighty redwood trees,,,
Towering Giants Of Teleological Beauty - October 2010 https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/towering-giants-of-teleological-beauty/
,,,Capillary action is also essential for the circulation of the blood in our very own capillary blood vessels. Water's melting and boiling point are not where common sense would indicate they should be when we look at its molecular weight. The three sister compounds of water all behave as would be predicted by their molecular weight. Oddly, water just happens to have melting and boiling points that are of optimal biological utility. The other properties of water we measure, like its specific slipperiness (viscosity) and its ability to absorb and release more heat than any other natural substance, have to be as they are in order for life to be possible on earth. Even the oceans have to be the size they are in order to stabilize the temperature of the earth so human life may be possible. On and on through each characteristic we can possibly measure water with, it turns out to be required to be almost exactly as it is or complex life on this earth could not exist. No other liquid in the universe comes anywhere near matching water in its fitness for life (Michael Denton: Nature's Destiny). Here is a more complete list of the anomalous life enabling properties of water:
Anomalous life enabling properties of water http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/anmlies.html Water's remarkable capabilities - December 2010 - Peer Reviewed Excerpt: All these traits are contained in a simple molecule of only three atoms. One of the most difficult tasks for an engineer is to design for multiple criteria at once. ... Satisfying all these criteria in one simple design is an engineering marvel. Also, the design process goes very deep since many characteristics would necessarily be changed if one were to alter fundamental physical properties such as the strong nuclear force or the size of the electron. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/12/pro-intelligent_design_peer_re042211.html
Surely all these coincidental properties of water are enough to make one wonder as to causation. Well it turns out that if one follows cause and effect down far enough in the water molecule then finally one reaches the 'final quantum cause' which must, because of the non-locality of quantum actions, reside outside of time and space:
Water's quantum weirdness makes life possible - October 2011 Excerpt: WATER'S life-giving properties exist on a knife-edge. It turns out that life as we know it relies on a fortuitous, but incredibly delicate, balance of quantum forces.,,, They found that the hydrogen-oxygen bonds were slightly longer than the deuterium-oxygen ones, which is what you would expect if quantum uncertainty was affecting water’s structure. “No one has ever really measured that before,” says Benmore. We are used to the idea that the cosmos’s physical constants are fine-tuned for life. Now it seems water’s quantum forces can be added to this “just right” list. http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21228354.900-waters-quantum-weirdness-makes-life-possible.html
The atheist simply does not have a coherent non-local, beyond space and time, quantum cause to appeal to, whereas Theists have always maintained God as 'final cause'. Verses and music:
Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. Genesis 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. Alison Krauss - Down in the River to Pray http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvYadad-x5Y
bornagain77
November 17, 2012
November
11
Nov
17
17
2012
01:49 PM
1
01
49
PM
PDT
I missed this on first reading:
That crude matter should have originally formed itself according to mechanical laws...that [is] contradictory to reason.
Which came first, crude matter or mechanical laws? Did mechanical laws bring the crude matter into existence? Did crude matter bring the mechanical laws into existence? How can it be the case that either one could be true?Mung
November 17, 2012
November
11
Nov
17
17
2012
01:00 PM
1
01
00
PM
PDT
I love this line from Life's Ratchet. How complicated a simple snow flake is!Mung
November 17, 2012
November
11
Nov
17
17
2012
12:13 PM
12
12
13
PM
PDT
And what does it mean to reject “domino causation”?
I read KN to be saying he rejects 'linear efficient causation' as the only valid form of causation. A causes B causes C as a sequence in which each cause is only construed as an efficient cause. That's what I think he meant by domino causation.Mung
November 17, 2012
November
11
Nov
17
17
2012
11:59 AM
11
11
59
AM
PDT
That seems like a reasonable interpretation, Neil. Not to be belabor the point, but although I'm an atheist*, I'm not a materialist. I trust I've made my reasons for that sufficiently clear by now. * Though "atheism" is a term I'm not really happy with. I prefer to think of myself as a secularist, humanist, and naturalist. Not that it matters what labels I apply to myself.Kantian Naturalist
November 17, 2012
November
11
Nov
17
17
2012
11:53 AM
11
11
53
AM
PDT
An auto-poetic system? Organized by meter and rhyme?Mung
November 17, 2012
November
11
Nov
17
17
2012
11:52 AM
11
11
52
AM
PDT
I never fully understood Varela and Maturana, because they seemed to leave too many details unexplained. However, autopoesis is generally understood to include self-organization.
“Though others have often used the term as a synonym for self-organization, Maturana himself stated he would ‘never use the notion of self-organization, because it cannot be the case… it is impossible. That is, if the organization of a thing changes, the thing changes.’”
It is also hard to work out what "self-organization" is supposed to mean. And I take that to be part of Maturana's point. A snow crystal forms out of the condensing water vapor. And some would call that "self-organization." But the self (the snow crystal) does not even exist at the beginning of that process, so we cannot credit the non-existent crystal with doing that organizing. And that is probably what Maturana is getting at. I suppose the term "self-organization" is something of a slogan. It is a term we might use but, like all slogans, it is an oversimplification and is often misleading.Neil Rickert
November 17, 2012
November
11
Nov
17
17
2012
11:01 AM
11
11
01
AM
PDT
"”Autopoeitic” is from the Latin “self” and “creation,” and literally that which creates itself." 'creates itself',,, Hmm,,, that must be the ultimate 'pull yourself up by your bootstraps' smokescreen. ,,, Somebody notify Krauss and Hawking! :)bornagain77
November 17, 2012
November
11
Nov
17
17
2012
10:39 AM
10
10
39
AM
PDT
1 2 3

Leave a Reply