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EA on Random Turtles

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We’ve all laughed at the naive “turtles all the way down” story. What follows is all Eric Anderson’s “randomness all the way down” story:

[WD writes:] I’m saying the non-random survival . . .

It is pretty much randomness all the way down. How did the particular particle interact with the copying mechanism to cause a mutation? How did that particular mutation end up interacting in the organism to produce an effect? What result did that have in that particular organism, as opposed to another? How did that particular mutation get spread in the population? What environmental factor happened to come along after the mutation that resulted in it making a difference? Which organism happened to be on a high rock when the flood came, or under protection when the hail fell, or hidden from sight when the predator arrived? And on and on. Everything that goes on within a lineage to get an organism to where it is today; everything that went on in the predator’s lineage to get them where they are today; all the vagaries and hazards of nature. It is essentially randomness all the way down.

Natural selection is not any kind of force. It is simply an after the fact label attached to the results of processes that are seldom understood, rarely identified, and that (as a practical matter) are essentially random. Natural selection doesn’t impart any “non-random” directionality to evolution. It is simply a label attached to the outcome, and attaching a label to the result of what is essentially a random process does not make the process non-random.

[WD writes:] “It’s not simply that survivors survive, but those individuals that are best adapted to their environment survive, and so over time lineages become better adapted.”

And how, pray tell, do we know that a particular organism was “best adapted to its environment”? Because it survived.

Look, if someone wants to use the two words “natural selection” as a shorthand way to avoid having to say: “Organisms are more likely to survive if they happen to be in a lineage that happens to have conferred a (generally unidentified) mutation that (in some typically unknown way) happened to provide a characteristic that happened to be helpful in the particular environment in which they happened to be living at the time, as compared to other organisms that were less lucky.” — If someone wants to use “natural selection” as ashorthand expression so that they don’t have to say all that, then fine.

The problem arises, as it does so frequently, when natural selection is put forward as an explanation for an organism’s survival. In that case it almost always falls back on survivability as the (often unspoken) definition. In that case it is a useless tautology. Worse, it gives people the false impression that some kind of “scientific” explanation has been proffered, when it is really just a confession of ignorance about the real underlying processes.

Think of it this way:

If we can identify, with particularity, what actually caused an organism to survive — the specific trait, particular molecular machines, identifiable proteins and DNA sequences, the particular environmental factors, predation, weather, flood, drought, and so on — if we can identify precisely what caused the “differential survival” in the population, then we can talk about the real, physical, concrete, underlying, specific cause just fine, thank you very much, without ever invoking the label of “natural selection”.

It is only when we don’t know what the actual forces and causes were at work that “natural selection” need be invoked. Unfortunately, in that case, it functions as little more than an observation that those that survived, survived.

Comments
Barry, All you've claimed is that "survival of fittest", where the fittest just means "those that survive" is at the core of evolutionary biology. It's not. Now you've "forced" me, with your clever lawerly traps, to admit that it would be hard to predict the fitness of a non existent creature. I'm still waiting for the bit where any of this matters.wd400
October 9, 2014
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wd400:
Do you have some examples of where Evolutionary biologists go around invoking natural selection to explain this or that trait wihout evidence for selection?
Are you serious? Have you never read Stephen Jay Gould? p.s. Does Darwin count?Mung
October 9, 2014
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The importance of Darwinian theory does not lie in its predictive strength, for, as we have seen, the nature of its key explanatory concept, fitness, precludes such strength. The importance of the theory lies in the freedom it provides biologists to view natural phenomena as just that, as natural, and not as the creation of an artificer with designs for natural phenomena. - Rosenberg, A. The Structure of Biological Science
Mung
October 9, 2014
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WD @ 8.
I’ll ask you to explain why you think this is a problem.
I have, repeatedly. I am sorry if you did not understand my explanation.Barry Arrington
October 9, 2014
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wd400- yes I read the article and the paper it was based on. Natural selection seems to be nothing more than a statistical artifact. And BTW it is only natural selection if the heritable variations arose via accidents, errors and mistakes. Lest we forget- many different variations could fit an environment- Cheetahs and lions live in the same environment. Both seem rather well adapted to it. The same goes for their prey. And behavioral changes are much easier to implement than waiting for some happenstance variation to save the day. Lee Spetner's non-random evolutionary hypothesis is a much better explanation of how organisms come to be adapted to their environment.Joe
October 9, 2014
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I don't know about "notorius" but it's certainly true that personal judgement can be fallible when it comes to how fit a variant would turn out to be. And on what basis would you measure the fitness of animals unlike any now living “in the wild” I wouldn't. Again, I'll ask you to explain why you think this is a problem.wd400
October 9, 2014
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wd400,
fitness applies to a genotype or phenotype. That can be measure in the wild
George Gaylord Simpson opined that ‘the fallibility of personal judgment as to the adaptive value of particular characters, most especially when these occur in animals quite unlike any now living, is notorious.' Do you believe this statement to be untrue? If so, why? And on what basis would you measure the fitness of animals unlike any now living "in the wild" other than their persistence in the fossil record over a long period of time (i.e., while they were surviving they were fit; when they no longer survived they were no longer fit).Barry Arrington
October 9, 2014
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My point (in this context) is more nuanced. Specifically, if I assign a particular “fitness” ratio to organism A, what does that mean? Almost nothing. Which is why evolutionary biologists seldom do this. Instead, fitness apllies to a genotype or phenotype. That can be measure in the wild, ("genotype x has twice the chance of leaving descendants as genotype y", so I really don't see this "tautology" thing as a problem). You might assign fitness to an individual (a) after the fact or (b) base on some model using existing fitness data and triats of that individual, but that's not the normal way to go. You seem to be saying something else in your more general statements. Effectively that "Because natural selection" isn't a complete explanatin. No evolutionary biologist would disagree with that. But it's still true that general answer to the question "why are organisms so well adapted to their environments" is natural selection, a process by which variatiants that fit an environment come to dominate populations and by which population-lineages get the advantage of past rounds of that adaptation.wd400
October 9, 2014
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wd400: Thanks for your good comments.
Do you have some examples of where Evolutionary biologists go around invoking natural selection to explain this or that trait without evidence for selection?
When do biologists invoke natural selection without evidence for selection? Setting aside the circularity of that wording for a moment, I presume you mean "when do biologists invoke natural selection without evidence for the actual physical cause of the differential survival?" Unfortunately, it happens all the time. We scarcely have to look at a biology textbook or a news article about this or that organism to find natural selection being trotted out as the reason for organism X's continued existence. If you and your colleagues are more careful, then kudos to you. But it is an exceedingly slippery slope and very easy to fall into. Particularly because the very word "selection" lulls us into thinking that natural selection is an actual force, that it is actually doing something. Even those who recognize that Darwin's personification of natural selection as a near-benevolent force roaming about the globe "preserving all that is good" smacks of artistic license still regularly fall into the same trap.
Since fitness is that thing that matters in evolution, that’s something to measure.
And what is "fitness"? Please point to the specific, concrete, physical mechanism that is exerting a force on the organism. What is the definition of fitness? It is, I believe, theoretically possible to provide a non-tautological definition of fitness. But it is exceedingly difficult in practice, and even more rarely accomplished.
At the same time, the concept of fitness is crucial to the model of pop gen and quant gen that allow us to detect selection in genes (an absolutely crucial step to understanding genomics) and predict the effects of selection.
There is an important nuance here to my criticism. I have little quibble with population genetics, which is generally good science and is on a pretty solid foundation, in contrast to so much of the storytelling and hypothesizing that unfortunately also comes under the heading of "evolution." The term "fitness" is of course used in population genetics, and indeed, is often assigned a specific numerical value, based on observations, which can be calculated and, in a number of circumstances, even be used to come up with useful predictions. (You're of course more versed in all this than most of us, so I'm not mentioning this for you, just for the drive-by reader.) I don't have a problem with observing that a particular phenotype has a fitness ratio of X, and another phenotype has a fitness ratio of Y, and then running an analysis based on that. That is all good science as far as it goes. My point (in this context) is more nuanced. Specifically, if I assign a particular "fitness" ratio to organism A, what does that mean? Ultimately, it means that the organism has such-and-such a likelihood of survival, presumably based on observations that have been made. And so we can use that to make calculations and predictions going forward. Great. But where did that concept of "fitness" come from? Whence the ratio? Well, we look at a population at some starting point, look at the population later in time, count up the survivors, and pronounce them more "fit." Why are they more fit? Because they are the survivors. That is the sum and substance of it, and it matters not whether we are dealing with a binary life-death scenario or a stochastic scenario with ratios and probabilities. In either case we end up defining the fitness in terms of survivability. Again, this is not a problem as long as it is based on actual observations and as long as we understand the proper parameters and limitations. It gives us useful data to use in making predictions going forward. But we have to be careful not to think that by assigning a label to the survivability ratio that we have somehow explained anything about what caused the survival or that any other force (such as some vague concept of natural selection) is at work. (To make the circularity of the definition more explicit, we could call the ratio the "survivability ratio," rather than the "fitness ratio" and then everyone would be clear that we are really talking about survivability.) ----- Then, as I noted above, there are many other instances (you and your colleagues being notable exceptions, we presume) in which biologists, books, news stories, popularizers of evolutionary theory, and so on, flat out tie the concept of "natural selection" to survivability. That is useless on its face and, worse, typically serves to provide a veneer of authoritative explanation when it is actually just masking our ignorance of the real underlying causes.Eric Anderson
October 9, 2014
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Joe. Did you read the link. It's specifically about papers that measure a trait's influence on fitness. (Berlinksi seems to have a problem with the paper, but, typically, provides no cogent explanation as to what his problem is. )wd400
October 9, 2014
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wd400:
Do you have some examples of where Evolutionary biologists go around invoking natural selection to explain this or that trait wihout evidence for selection?
That is all they do and Futuyma is the best example. The Strength of Natural Selection in the WildJoe
October 9, 2014
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Do you have some examples of where Evolutionary biologists go around invoking natural selection to explain this or that trait wihout evidence for selection? I hear idiots doing this all this time, evo psychs with almost anything, molecular biologists with the idea that junk dna must be there for some resaons. I don't see evolutionary biologists making the same mistake. As Neil said in another thread, the point about identifying fitness as a key idea in evolution is that it helps evolutionary biologists get passed all the waffle in the post above, and actually do some science. Since fitness is that thing that matters in evolution, that's something to measure. Since heritbale traits are the only ones that can evolve we estimate heritability, since selection requires fitness to be non-random with respecet to hertiable traits we can compare the fitness of different phenotypes knowing their heritability. In short, we can measure fitness in the wild. At the same time, the concept of fitness is crucial to the model of pop gen and quant gen that allow us to detect selection in genes (an absolutely crucial step to understanding genomics) and predict the effects of selection.wd400
October 9, 2014
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And its not only the "best adapted" that survive. Plenty of stuff survives. "Average Joe" adapted far outnumber "Best" adapted when it comes to survival. "Best" is "Master Race" talk.ppolish
October 9, 2014
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