The philosophical and scientific discussions on this site are interesting to be sure, but the psychology displayed by the materialists who comment here is nothing short of fascinating. It is a wonder to behold, and I would not have believed such a thing is possible if I had not seen it myself. Self deception is absolutely essential to maintaining the materialist worldview. Again, WJM’s dictum: No sane person acts as if materialism were true.
I was talking about this with my dad this afternoon and the following conversation ensued:
Barry: The discussions on UD are fascinating. I have never seen a materialist change his mind about anything even when the logical incoherence of his view has been established beyond the slightest doubt. How can they continue to believe this stuff.
Dad: That’s where you’re wrong son. They never believed it to begin with.
Barry: Say what?
Dad: They know the truth just the same as anyone else. But they lie to you and they lie to themselves, and they lie so often and so long they eventually become so invested in the lie that they act like they believe it is true.
Barry: Hmmmm, maybe you’re on to something.
Dad: It reminds me of the story of a farmer who was always bragging to his neighbors about all the cows he had on his property “up north.” Year after year he bragged about his cows up north until finally he started sending them hay.
An exchange between WJM and eigenstate in the thread to this post came to mind when I heard dad’s story. In the exchange they discuss whether on materialist premises the sensation of top-down, mind-over-body control over what one does or thinks is an illusion. In very brief summary, early in the thread eigenstate says in a dialogue with me:
The processes are all, at the core “just physics”.
WJM says:
If what is at stake is the characteristic of whether or not a thing has top-down, prescriptive control, that characteristic cannot exist under the assumption that all behaviors are causally generated by that which lies at the bottom.
IOW, if MELP (matter/energy/law/probability) causes all effects and phenomena, then no phenomena can have the characteristic of not being caused by MELP.
Eigenstate agrees:
Tautologically true. If all phenomena are products of STEM [space/time/energy/matter], then all phenomena are products of STEM, agreed.
WJM says:
If the bottom-up process generates a sensation that one has top-down, mind-over-body control of what one does or thinks, that sensation is necessarily, definitionally illusory because the materials and forces at the bottom dictate the behavior of thoughts of the aggregate.
Eigenstate responds:
I don’t see the relevance of complaining about “illusions”, here. If it’s illusory, it’s illusory.
WJM:
Acting in accordance with such illusions as if they were not illusions is called a delusion.
Eigenstate
What’s the problem with this, beyond any frustrations you or I may have in accepting that we’re mistaken?? [i.e., mistaken about whether our sensation of top down control mapped to anything real]
WJM
Do you really not know what the problem is in insisting in a debate that everyone, yourself included, is delusional?
I don’t know why eigenstate is so invested in materialism (actually invested in hating theism is more likely). But he has lied to himself so long and swallowed the logical incoherence of his worldview so often, he has started to send hay to his cows up north.