Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Elizabeth Liddle’s Revisionism is Astonishingly Audacious!

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In a prior post I took Dr. Liddle (sorry for the misspelled name) to task for this statement:

“Darwinian hypotheses make testable predictions and ID hypotheses (so far) don’t.”

I responded that this was not true and noted that:

For years Darwinists touted “junk DNA” as not just any evidence but powerful, practically irrefutable evidence for the Darwinian hypothesis. ID proponents disagreed and argued that the evidence would ultimately demonstrate function.

Not only did both hypotheses make testable predictions, the Darwinist prediction turned out to be false and the ID prediction turned out to be confirmed

Liddle resonds:

Sorry Barry that that example simply does not work.

Darwinian theory would only predict unused sequences of DNA were it to be the case that unused sequences had no metabolic or other cost . . .

And I will be first in line to cite Darwinian hypotheses that have been falsified. But not the “junk DNA” hypothesis.

Nor will I accept that “no junk DNA” was a positive prediction of ID. It is neither positive, nor is it a prediction.

Dr. Liddle, have you no shame? All I can say is your revisionist history is stunning in its scope and audacity.

Whole books were written by ID proponents about the Darwinist myth of junk DNA. See here.

The ID position has now been largely vindicated and the Darwinist position debunked.

You know that. Therefore, I simply cannot imagine that you assert to the contrary in good faith. If I did not know better, charity would demand that I ascribe your statements to near invincible ignorance. Sadly, that option is not open to me. Therefore, I can only conclude that you are willfully and mendaciously misrepresenting the record.

You made a false statement in the prior post. I posted a second post calling you out. Instead of conceding or retracting you doubled down. Will you double down again or will you retract?

 

Comments
@ wd400 “Indeed, evolutionary biology is pretty great.” You are right sir. Evolution is so great that it can predict something (say rape and murder) and its opposite (altruism) with equal alacrity and without even seeming to be embarrassed about it. Not only that, it can predict junk DNA, and when that turns out to be a myth it can predict no junk DNA and pretend that's what it predicted all along. Ya gotta love it. BTW, if you say the prominent Darwinists did not howl for years and years about junk DNA being a clincher for their theory, then you are either ignorant or a liar. I don’t know which you are.Barry Arrington
October 4, 2013
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"Once again creationist might spend some earnest time speculating on why a Creator should bother to litter genomes with untranslated pseudogenes and junk tandem repeat DNA." ---Richard Dawkins according to The Myth of Junk DNA, chapter 2 by Jonathan Wells.Collin
October 4, 2013
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wd400. Jonathan Wells disagrees with you in Chapter 2 of his book, The Myth of Junk DNA. He has some good quotes from Dawkins and other biologists. But maybe their explanations of junk DNA are not "predictions" of junk DNA. But in any case, Mung's point in 33 resonates with me.Collin
October 4, 2013
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Perhaps you have a point wd400. I appreciate your viewpoint. Nonetheless, there were one or two who contended that the genome was filled with rubbish. One Darwinist (I believe he would fit the title) Richard Dawkins did say this after the ENCODE results came out: " But the point is that that was just the subroutines that are called into being; the program that's calling them into action is the rest [of the genome] which had previously been written off as junk." It's that last point that I think some would point out. "...which had previously been written off as junk." Dr Dawkins didn't seem to think that everyone struggled with the notion of reams of garbled nucleotides. On that thought of why ID followers require a junkless genome, I think, from what I have gleaned over time, that they assume that an Intelligent Designer would not willfully insert gobbledygook into their designs. "No no, not at all" we imagine them saying, "If this old strip of DNA was designed, there must've been a reason for this odd looking code. Now what could it be?" Or words to that effect. Actually, Dr Dawkins, ever eloquent, states the case quite admirably: ""It stretches even their [creationists] creative ingenuity to make a convincing reason why an intelligent designer should have created a pseudogene -- a gene that does absolutely nothing and gives every appearance of being a superannuated version of a gene that used to do something -- unless he was deliberately setting out to fool us..." He was right too. ID theorists that I have spoken with pretty much agreed. Their conclusion though was that the stuff that had been "written off" would actually contain some rather useful stuff. And it is beginning to show up as luck would have it. Personally, I think I would expect at least a little mess in the old instruction manual. Surely entropy has to get in there somehow. It gets everywhere else after all. But 95%? That'd be suspicious. By-the-by, please do not think that I am trying to represent all persons who believe in the Theory of Evolution by Dr Dawkins statements. That wouldn't be cricket. Kind regardsHo-De-Ho
October 4, 2013
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Darwinists, properly defined, predicted a junk-free genome. Partly as a result of the discovery of junk DNA, and related arguments about genetic load, a new school of evolutionary theory arose, called the Neutral Theory. Using the tools of the Neutral Theory, we can predict, in coarse terms, which genomes will have more or less junk DNA. Indeed, evolutionary biology is pretty great.wd400
October 4, 2013
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Darwinism predicts a (mostly) junk-free genome. Darwinism predicts a (mostly) junk-filled genome. Darwinism predicts whatever we think we've found, whether mostly junk free or mostly junk filled. It's a great theory.Mung
October 4, 2013
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Elizabeth has asked some very good questions, and I like an answer to them. Did anyone predict a genome that is mostly junk based on Darwinian principles? The immediate response to Ohno is pretty telling - Darwinists (using the term properly) thought if something was there it must be due do selection, so reatlly struggled with idea of functionless DNA. Now, of course, subsequently evolutionary biologists developed the neutral theory, and we came to understand population gentics better. Modern population genetics gives us a good way to understand the accumulation of junk - on the one hand we have many forces adding non-functional sequences to genomes (gene duplication and subsequent mutation, transposons, large scale rearrangements....) and very little selective advantage in having a small genome. So, we might well expect genomes to accumulate junk, and we can even make more specific predictions about where we'll find junk-ridden genomes. Take, for instance, the relationship between effective population size (and thus strength of selection) and genome size, where we fine large genomes in organisms with small populations. The other question is whether a junkless genome is a prediction of ID. It's obvious that many IDers don't like the idea of junk DNA, but less obvious why ID requires a junkless (or near junkless?) genome. Finally, if you are centerting your claim to ID's predictive power around junk DNA you have a pretty serious problem. The best evidence suggests that most of our genome (and those of most eukaryotes at that) is made of junk DNA, the idea of junk DNA was never an argument from ignorance, and the term has never been a synonym for non-coding DNA (among people who know what they're talking about). So,I really think you shuold re-instate Elizabeth. And answer her questions once you've done that.wd400
October 4, 2013
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To to ban her = rather than to ban hersteveO
October 4, 2013
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ID proponents have made Liddle and her arguments look utterly foolish so often that at times I'm amazed she continues to post in public using her real name. But that's her choice and personally I do think it preferable that her arguments continue to be publicaly dismantled to to ban her,steveO
October 4, 2013
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Oh, brave Sir Robin! Call Lizzie a liar from behind Barry’s skirt.
Alan, your schtick would be so much more powerful if it made any sense whatsoever. I've debated Dr Liddle as much or more than anyone on UD, and not only have I called her out to her face on her constant "contradictions", but also lead her by the nose into figuring out she could not simulate the rise of information. Furthermore, her cesspool of a blog has six or seven threads devoted to my argument, including the longest running thread in its history - which I spent 90+ straight days participating in, defending my position, and ultimately ending with concessions from my direct conversation partner on his two lead counter-arguments. Does it ever bother you to say things that are so obviously wrong and so easily demonstrated to be such?Upright BiPed
October 4, 2013
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'Banning Dr. Liddle means that I will visit UD less often because it will have less debate."
I agree. Debate amongst the hard line Darwinists is what keeps it interesting here.equate65
October 4, 2013
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I think there is a non-sequitur here. What has junk DNA or non functional DNA have to do with Darwinian processes? The two may not be related other than there may be a whole host of ways the genome gets changed or added to. Remember Alan MacNeil's 47 engines of change. This can be a small part of Darwinian theory but the real issue is how certain parts of the genome then become functional or not since they do not start out functional. We have no way of knowing how these non-coding regions became functional and it is unlikely it was due to further mutation. What is at issue is not how these additions to the genome got there but how function arose and if it did when did it originate and how. As more and more genomes come in from dispersed groups, the similarity or lack of it will be documented. One can then point to actual places in the genome where the differences are and if there are no differences why? A genome had to change at some time. I think we ask the wrong questions. Junk DNA is as I said a red herring.jerry
October 4, 2013
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#16 Mapou
Personally, I would have banned her a long time ago, along with some others. We should start giving these people a taste of their own medicine. Just ban the hell out of them.
As far as I know Lizzie has only ever banned one person from her blog and has been repeatedly criticised by KF for not banning people. How is this a taste of her own medicine?Mark Frank
October 4, 2013
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Banning Dr. Liddle means that I will visit UD less often because it will have less debate. In response to Dr. Liddle: a scientific prediction does not need to be made in a science journal. It has been made very clear that a science journal will suffer major ostracism for allowing an explicitly pro-ID paper to be published. Michael Behe, in particular, has been criticised in science journals but often refused an opportunity to rebut the criticism. And, would you say that Darwin's "Origin of Species" should have been published in a science journal before it could count as "making predictions?"Collin
October 4, 2013
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Oh and on the issue of Dr Elizabeth Liddle. Isn't prohibition a touch heavy handed? I for one enjoy Dr Liddle's posts. Many sane and instructive remarks are found therein. Good questions too. Even if one took the line that Dr Liddle was talking out of the top of her head (which I do not for a moment suggest), should one resort to the slapping of a restraining order? A glance at this thread suggests a protest march could be stirring in the wings. The whisper is fluttering about behind the curtains - "Bring back Dr Liddle." Just a thought.Ho-De-Ho
October 4, 2013
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So IMO Darwinists should be kicked off this site, but non-Darwinian evolutionist or theistic evolutionists such as myself should be welcome because whilst we may not agree with everyone about ID we have certain things in common and debate is worthwile for both sides.
It's always nicer to surround yourself with people who won't question your judgement or interpretations. Much more peaceful. And you won't have to worry so much about defending your views. Meanwhile, at TSZ, all are welcome to come and state their case. You do have to be ready to back up your ideas of course.Jerad
October 4, 2013
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Elizabeth Liddle doubles down yet again. She is no longer with us.
Interesting to see that disagreeing with the UD regulars in a measured and calm fashion gets you banned. But, at least it will be easier to convince the troops that you are right when there's fewer dissenters allowed to post comments.
Personally, I would have banned her a long time ago, along with some others. We should start giving these people a taste of their own medicine. Just ban the hell out of them. Sorry for the outburst. Telling it like I see it, as always.
The Expelled Syndrome. And a fair amount of petulance.Jerad
October 4, 2013
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Whatho everyone. Only me. What fascinates me is that there are some who say that nobody predicted junk DNA based upon Darwinism. "Rummy" I said to myself "I have heard that position taken with mine own ears." Here are just a few links that seem to suggest so too. http://tinyurl.com/9demy6o http://tinyurl.com/nwogkdo http://tinyurl.com/nqmxfek http://tinyurl.com/oqxewk4 (By-the-by somebody may have to fix my links as I am a duffer at these sort of things. "Quill and parchment is the mot juste in my household.) Not that I am necessarily taking sides with these links, just observing that the "Golly! our DNA instructions are positively stuffed with waffle of the first order. Tut tut evolution you are are careless chap" motif has most definitely been around for a while.Ho-De-Ho
October 4, 2013
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Personally, I would have banned her a long time ago, along with some others. We should start giving these people a taste of their own medicine. Just ban the hell out of them. Sorry for the outburst. Telling it like I see it, as always.
Well said, the Darwinists have already made their mind up so are not going to be interested in any evidence which contradict their belief and I see no real reason why they would choose to post on an ID website other than trolling or looking for an argument. No matter what is written on any thread it will be wrong to them, so in the end the conversations are futile, which is exactly happened with this Liddle Darwinist. It just wastes everyone's time. So IMO Darwinists should be kicked off this site, but non-Darwinian evolutionist or theistic evolutionists such as myself should be welcome because whilst we may not agree with everyone about ID we have certain things in common and debate is worthwile for both sides.TheisticEvolutionist
October 4, 2013
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Liddle: One of the things I teach is quantitative methods. One of the first exercises I give students, is to to derive a testable hypothesis from their theory, and draw a diagram of what their data will (probably) look like if their hypothesis is true, and what it will (probably) look like if their hypothesis is not true. I would like someone from the ID camp to construct such a diagram for an ID hypothesis. So Elizabeth here is an experiment for you and your students. First, you diagram how the data analysis will appear as a result of your students' scientific research. And then you ask your students to do the same. And here is the research: the students have diagrammed the data analysis of an examination of Haeckel's famous (some would say notorious) drawings, as reproduced in Evolution Of The Earth (2009 http://www.amazon.com/Evolution-Earth-Donald-Prothero/dp/0072826843 ). And then the students will examine actual relevant photographs sourced from honest researchers. The hypothesis: Haeckel and the authors of the above were of a mind with all honest researchers, and not pulling a fast one on a gullible public. Not kidding here, this would be a valuable experience for your students I'm thinking. What do you say? Now - I have written a thesis based on an assumption. The assumption: the arrival time measurement of an energy burst has a resolution which can be expressed as a function of energy density spectrum of the burst, and power density spectrum of corrupting noise i.e. a function of two functions. This has not been established before my attempt. Back around 1950 a talented radar engineer Philip Woodward established a formula for resolution based on uniform noise spectrum amplitude (a special case), and the second moment of the energy spectrum of the burst (a function of two variables). What he did was brilliant, and relied on a strictly analytic approach. To do what I did, I knew I would have to rely on the Shannon-Hartley theorem, and so I was mixing analysis with number systems. This illustrated the drawback of the purely analytic approach of Woodward, but what he did is perfectly applicable to the real-world. Now Madam (another assumption), not once did I have to engage in the exercise that you propose. My search was one for elegance, though the outcome is somewhat heuristic in part. Of course I compared the performance of my formulation with that of the Woodward formula, but not once did I doubt the inevitable close tracking between the two, which I will summarize in an appendix. I never considered any diagram or elaborate plan for performance evaluation. What I have is a scientific endeavor despite what you imply here.groovamos
October 4, 2013
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Oops HTML error
Elizabeth Liddle will say anything literally whatsoever, without the slightest sense of intellectual honesty.
Oh, brave Sir Robin! Call Lizzie a liar from behind Barry’s skirt. Contemptible!Alan Fox
October 4, 2013
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We should start giving these people a taste of their own medicine. Just ban the hell out of them. Sorry for the outburst. Telling it like I see it, as always.
It sure was bad strategy of Barry to allow Lizzie to continue to elicit the responses from you ID proponents that we have observed. I doubt Barry will repeat the experiment in the foreseeable future. Maybe now there will be some effort at developing a real theory of "Intelligent Design". Maybe not.Alan Fox
October 4, 2013
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KN:
Lizzie’s been banned for asking questions? You have got to me kidding me!
Personally, I would have banned her a long time ago, along with some others. We should start giving these people a taste of their own medicine. Just ban the hell out of them. Sorry for the outburst. Telling it like I see it, as always.Mapou
October 4, 2013
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Elizabeth Liddle will say anything literally whatsoever, without the slightest sense of intellectual honesty. Oh, brave Sir Robin! Call Lizzie a liar from behind Barry's skirt. Contemptible!
Alan Fox
October 4, 2013
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@ 12, Hear, hear!equate65
October 4, 2013
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Barry, its your shop; run it as you wish. But I wouldn't ban Liddle. Although I have become tired of having to go back and pull up her previous words and positions. And frankly, it never mattered. Elizabeth Liddle will say anything literally whatsoever, without the slightest sense of intellectual honesty.Upright BiPed
October 4, 2013
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Don't ban her! If anything, it would be better to see MORE examples of her revisionism and excuse making for the sake of Darwinian faith. I say that UD should put Origin-thumpers like Liddle up on a stage to expose their nonsense.StuartHarris
October 4, 2013
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I see UD has reverted to type. Interesting experiment, Barry. I wondered how long you could keep up the pretence of being able to deal with legitimate criticism of "ID". I have to admit you lasted longer than I predicted. What now? Some effort at putting flesh on the decaying skeleton of ID "theory"? I predict no.Alan Fox
October 4, 2013
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Good stuff equate: From the article you cite:
There may also be another factor motivating the Graur et al. and related articles (van Bakel et al. 2010; Scanlan 2012), which is suggested by the sources and selection of quotations used at the beginning of the article, as well as in the use of the phrase “evolution-free gospel” in its title (Graur et al. 2013): the argument of a largely nonfunctional genome is invoked by some evolutionary theorists in the debate against the proposition of intelligent design of life on earth, particularly with respect to the origin of humanity. In essence, the argument posits that the presence of non-protein-coding or so-called ‘junk DNA’ that comprises >90% of the human genome is evidence for the accumulation of evolutionary debris by blind Darwinian evolution, and argues against intelligent design, as an intelligent designer would presumably not fill the human genetic instruction set with meaningless information (Dawkins 1986; Collins 2006). This argument is threatened in the face of growing functional indices of noncoding regions of the genome, with the latter reciprocally used in support of the notion of intelligent design and to challenge the conception that natural selection accounts for the existence of complex organisms (Behe 2003; Wells 2011).
Barry Arrington
October 4, 2013
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Repaired link on Mattick/Dinger www.thehugojournal.com/content/pdf/1877-6566-7-2.pdf?equate65
October 4, 2013
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